[ICTHUS]

Well all, it happens to us all. Except its disturbing me.

My story? Well, I re-verted to Catholicism from a theologically weak non-denominational church mostly because I disagreed with their views on communion and justification.

But now, Im struggling with issues such as purgatory, infused vs. imputed righteousness, whether or not the Church is semi-pelagian because she says that mans free will must co-operate with grace, and a whole host of other stuff. I'm so...lost. But I can't even pinpoint the main issues I'm struggling with! Not to mention when I doubt that God is even there listening to me ask Him for His truth, I start to say "what the hay, God doesn't care" and go commit mortal sin.

To make matters worse, every time I try to defend Church doctrine I always get knocked around. And the insults are the worst. Sometimes I wonder if all the Protestants are right and I'm just bound to roast in Hell for eternity for being a damned Romanist. My current situation is literally killing my soul, and if it doesn't get better soon I'm seriously considering leaving the Church.

Could it be that I'm just to simple to "know what I believe, and why I believe it?"

I've once been told my some Protestant friends of mine that they are impressed by my knowledge of the Word, so that's not it, but I feel like there's a big dark cloud of doubt that constantly hangs over my mind about everything to do with my faith.

Please, anyone who's out there and can identify, pray for me, and give me some advice or help please??

May the Virgin Mother of God, Sts. Peter and Paul, and St. Augustine, pray for me to the Lord our God!

Amen.

This post has been edited by ICTHUS: 23 October 2003 - 02:12 AM

[Adeodatus]

ICTHUS, I'm so sorry you're going through such a rough time. I don't think this is the right time to go through all your doctrinal difficulties, because like you said, "I can't even pinpoint the main issues I'm struggling with! "

This doesn't mean you're losing your faith. We all have our dark moments, but the Light is there, constantly shining whether we can see it or not. St Therese of Lisieux suffered enormously before she died. She said she sympathised with atheists, and in fact accepted her sufferings in Christ for the sake of atheists, that they might come to have faith. So hang in there: you're in good company!!!

I came back to my childhood Catholicism (well, I'd never really left) when I came to understand what Catholicism teaches. For me the clincher was the authority of the Church. Christ founded a Church, and this Church is in some mysterious and powerful sense the Body of Christ. Only one Church fits the bill as one, holy, catholic (with a small 'c') and apostolic-----and that was the Catholic (big 'c') Church. In the Church Christ himself gives us life in the sacraments. G.K. Chesterton was once asked why he became a Catholic. His answer: 'To get my sins forgiven!' Turn to the sacraments now, especially to the Eucharist, and to a regular (but not manic) use of the confessional (if you aren't already).

Hang in there. To be a Catholic is to be part of an enormous family. In fact, it's to be part of the biggest family there has ever been and ever will be. We are a family with all those who hope to be saved (on earth), with all who are being saved (in purgatory), and all who have been saved (in heaven). As Scripture says,

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." (Hebrews 18.22-24)

I know that feeling well, when you think things are so bad you might as well commit mortal sin etc. It's that phenomenon of 'in for a penny, in for a pound'---I might as well go the whole hog etc. (stop me anytime this gets clear, before I run out of cliches!!! :lol: ). Well, in the words of our fantastic Pope (long may he live!), "Don't". God loves you more than you can imagine. He sent his Only Son to die for you after all, and as far as God is concerned, you are well worth it whether you feel it or not. God loves you, and He's not about to change His mind.

You are in my prayers. Pray for me too please---I have to reason with Don John on another thread. :) God bless you.

[ICTHUS]

Aeodatus, I like your avatar.

Kind of represents me at the moment, just kneeling "at the cross" so to speak and holding onto It for dear life.

I also need to tell you guys I've been having some anti-Catholic dreams lately. The other night I dreamed I was in some kind of delapidated building, and there was a scantily clad woman there. She tried to tempt me into fornicating with her, and I started to pull close to her, but her eyes began to glow scarlet red and she bared vampire like fangs at me. It was then that I noticed a name, written in what I knew (for some reason, call it dreamers intuition) to be human blood, on her stomach

"BABYLON"

It was then that I woke up, and I had a distinct feeling that that woman was the Catholic Church. I'm supremely freaked out, guys..I dont know if its all the debates that I've been having with Protestants and I've just been consistently losing, or if its the anti-Catholicism I've suffered in past, but its finally catching up to me. And it hurts..

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Perhaps you should quit debating with Protestants for a while.... do some more research in the church to make yourself more comfortable with it. It's your life, you can walk away from the debates - but it's a choice only you can make. When in doubt, find out.

[jasJis]

May you know intimately, the love of God, ICTHUS.

I struggled with that doubt for many, many years. I was an apathetic / fallen-away Catholic. I always got my but kicked in discussions with Protestants and anti-Catholics. Doctrine does not lead you to belief, it reinforces what you have.

In my most doubting period (I half believed in God but theologically felt very non-denominational), my neighbor, who was an ex-Catholic and became Pentecostal, was very anti-Catholic. She hammered me alot. I did not have much arguement, and she'd back off just enough not to make me angry. She was a nice lady, good morals, good kids, and very sincere. One of the things she began saying was "You need to get right with Jesus". Here in the South, that is a common Protestant saying and a fundamental of their belief.

I knew I needed God. I needed Him emotionally and philosophically. I felt that maybe "getting right" with Jesus would help. I prayed. I prayed the Protestant "personal saviour" prayer. I began glancing at the Bible. It only helped a little, but heightend my need like mild hunger pains.

I sometimes travel alot by car for work. Things in my life were getting harder and I felt I needed God even more. I began to keep an eye out for a Church that I could stop in and pray in when I had some extra time in a new town. I've been to many Protestant Churches with friends, but when I was alone, I wanted a Catholic Church. I could always find a Catholic Church within a few minutes of thinking about it. They wouldn't neccessarily be on the main road. I would search a little bit, and find one. They always were open.

One Thursday, I stopped at a Church that had "Adoration, 9-12 Thurs.". I did not know what that was, so I stopped. It was Lent, and the parish was having Eucharistic Adoration with a priest hearing confession. I had never heard of that, though I knew what Benediction was. I went to confession (something I rarely did then) and sat with others, looking at the Monstrance with the Blessed Sacrament on the altar for about 15 minutes. I don't remember praying or anything. I just kinda sat and relaxed, then left.

I felt in a great mood for weeks afterwards, with no particualar reason why. Almost every Church I found out of town had a perpetual Adoration Chapel, and I would sit and pray. Until that one time, I had never seen or heard of Eucharistic Adoration or an Adoration Chapel.

The point of my long story is that Religion is about our relationship with God. Our relationship comes first, religion explains it. In Eucharistic Adoration, I renewed my personal relationship with God. I simply spent time WITH Him. I wasn't caught up in seeking Him in Religion, I let Him come to me, and rested in His Presence.

Don't worry about explaining or debating Doctrine. Sometimes that comes later. Spend time with God and learn to be open to His graces. God speaks to us in Scripture, the Church, the beauty of Nature, but His presence is more than that. Just being in His Real Presence is limited in it's effect if we are looking for something else. I was a 30+ cradle Catholic that managed to be clueless.

You cannot force believe. Our personal relationship with God is most important. God is a person. Simply spend time with Him to know Him. Don't forget to listen and relax. Being "right" with Him is the foundation of accepting "right" Doctrine. Solid belief and acceptance of Doctrine is the fruit of the graces of your relationship with God. Don't put the cart in front of the horse. Relax, God loves you even if you're not St. Thomas or St. Augustine. Work on knowing His love first. Explain later.
jasJis

[Norseman82]

Kilroy the Ninja, on Oct 23 2003, 06:08 AM, said:

Perhaps you should quit debating with Protestants for a while.... do some more research in the church to make yourself more comfortable with it.  It's your life, you can walk away from the debates - but it's a choice only you can make.  When in doubt, find out.

I agree.

As I recall, the apostle Paul went off to Arabia at the start of his Christianity (Galatians 1). So get your bearings first before embarking on any "missionary journeys".

It is also possible you are going through a "dark night of the soul".

Be patient and surround yourself with "good companions", i.e., good practicing Catholics who will build you up in your knowledge of the faith. ALso look to reliable websites like www.catholic.com and www.newadvent.com.

As a tip from my own life, when anti-Catholics pummeled me, I just reviewed the Creed and that reaffirmed that we are biblical.

[emalouhow]

I think that taking some time off from debating is a good idea. Take some time for yourself. Go To Eucharistic Adoration and just continue to ask God for the grace to help you find the truth. I have gone through some periods of "desert" where I just felt dead when it came to my faith. It didn't go away right away, and I also felt sometimes like God wasn't listening and really didn't care whether I found the truth or not. But I know He does care b/c I got through it and He's the only one who could've helped me. And I realized that the truth which corresponds most completely to the desires of my heart is Christ, and the method which He comes to me is through the Catholic Church!

I will continue to pray for you ICTHUS!! Don't lose faith, and continue to be patient. God bless you.

[foundsheep]

ICTHUS, on Oct 23 2003, 04:52 AM, said:

Aeodatus, I like your avatar.

Kind of represents me at the moment, just kneeling "at the cross" so to speak and holding onto It for dear life.

I also need to tell you guys I've been having some anti-Catholic dreams lately. The other night I dreamed I was in some kind of delapidated building, and there was a scantily clad woman there. She tried to tempt me into fornicating with her, and I started to pull close to her, but her eyes began to glow scarlet red and she bared vampire like fangs at me. It was then that I noticed a name, written in what I knew (for some reason, call it dreamers intuition) to be human blood, on her stomach

"BABYLON"

It was then that I woke up, and I had a distinct feeling that that woman was the Catholic Church. I'm supremely freaked out, guys..I dont know if its all the debates that I've been having with Protestants and I've just been consistently losing, or if its the anti-Catholicism I've suffered in past, but its finally catching up to me. And it hurts..

Had you recently spoken with non catholics before you had this dream?

Because thats what one of thier stories - The old Whore of Babylon Story.

Try not to succumb to these tales for they really are lies. It takes a long time for one to really understand the book of revalations. A lot of people take and twist these stories for the benefit of thier denomination. People love to attack the church with all the little things they feel are wrong with the church. But youll notice they never really attack the core. The churches creation and whom created her.

[BLAZEr]

ICTHUS, on Oct 23 2003, 02:05 AM, said:

Well all, it happens to us all. Except its disturbing me.

My story? Well, I re-verted to Catholicism from a theologically weak non-denominational church mostly because I disagreed with their views on communion and justification.

But now, Im struggling with issues such as purgatory, infused vs. imputed righteousness, whether or not the Church is semi-pelagian because she says that mans free will must co-operate with grace, and a whole host of other stuff. I'm so...lost. But I can't even pinpoint the main issues I'm struggling with! Not to mention when I doubt that God is even there listening to me ask Him for His truth, I start to say "what the hay, God doesn't care" and go commit mortal sin.

To make matters worse, every time I try to defend Church doctrine I always get knocked around. And the insults are the worst. Sometimes I wonder if all the Protestants are right and I'm just bound to roast in Hell for eternity for being a damned Romanist. My current situation is literally killing my soul, and if it doesn't get better soon I'm seriously considering leaving the Church.

Could it be that I'm just to simple to "know what I believe, and why I believe it?"

I've once been told my some Protestant friends of mine that they are impressed by my knowledge of the Word, so that's not it, but I feel like there's a big dark cloud of doubt that constantly hangs over my mind about everything to do with my faith.

Please, anyone who's out there and can identify, pray for me, and give me some advice or help please??

May the Virgin Mother of God, Sts. Peter and Paul, and St. Augustine, pray for me to the Lord our God!

Amen.

Ichy-baby, my prayers are with you . . . but i do have one little question:

Do these doubts about the Church come from inside of you or outside of you? Do you sit there in mass and say "This is so semi-palageian" or "Purgatory? I just don't see the scriptural evidence!" or "Does this imply imputed or infused righteousness?"

Maybe you do, but at least my experience has been that when I'm all alone with God in the Church I don't really have any problems whatsoever . . . whethere or not I cooperate for my salvation or he does it all himself . . I don't even think about it, because I'm so busy loving and serving him that the question is irrelevant


When I'm at mass and adoring the Eucharist I don't think "Man, its so unreasonable to think I would need to be cleansed before I enter Heaven" In fact, I want to be cleansed . . . . I say to God, "Please Sir, if you don't mind, can I wash my face and comb my hair and clean up these dirty clothes before I head on in to the banquet."

And I don't even know what imputed versus infused could possibly mean to God.

Faced with a Loving, Present, Transforming God in the Eucharist none of these thoughts enter my mind. They're artificial thoughts . . . thoughts that come from someone saying to me "The Catholic Church is palageian" or "Purgatory is unscriptural" or "Infused/Imputed righteousness is the only way!!"

These thoughts don't arise out of my prayer, or devotion, or love of God . . . they're imposed on me from the outside.

When I realized that, all my doubts fell away. When I started to ask myself "Does this come from me, from my body and mind reacting strongly against it naturally? or Does this come from the outside, from someone making me feel insecure about something I don't have a natural problem with, but can't necessarily defend."


I hope this helps a little bit. I just wanted to say, We've been there. We're praying for you. And its really a whole lot easier than we make it out to be.

[Dave]

ICTHUS, you need to realize that a thousand temptations against the faith don't add up to one doubt. We all have difficulties with Church teachings from time to time in which we may not understand why the Church teaches what it does on any given subject. The problem arises when you actually let those difficulties cause you to stop believing. It doesn't seem to me you've reached that point. Mathematicians have often run into difficulties, but they didn't let those difficulties cause them to start doubting the truths of mathematics. They just study more. That's what you need to do too. There's a wealth of Catholic apologetics sites and books out there. Take advantage of them!

[M.SIGGA]

Your struggle sounds a lot like the one I had in High school. Some close Catholic friends of mine left the church for a non-denominational church and a baptist church and I became convinced that somehow the Catholic Church might be wrong and that Protestants are right. I started going to their churches, all the while still going to mass, and I came to the point that I really didn't believe in anything anymore.

I spoke to a priest in Confession about what I had been doing and what I was going through and he told me to consider reading Story of a Soul, by St. Therese of Lisieux. Since I was really almost anti-Catholic at the time, I tried reading it with a lot of skepticism, but that novel really openned my heart up back to the Church in so many ways. It was that very book which made me realize the awe and wonder of Christ that we Catholics have in the 7 Sacraments, a treasure that no other denomination has - it was this especially that brought me back home to the Church.

I personally made peace with the Church's teachings on Purgatory, the role of the BVM, saints, Faith and Works, etc. by reading the Bible with Catholic eyes instead of Protestant ones. It doesn't matter so much 'who refuted what teaching' during the Reformation because the Truth will always stand - it doesn't matter whether or not Martin Luther doesn't believe in Purgatory or Baptists reject the BVM intercession; the truth is all these things exist and are real whether or not Protestants believe in them or not. Seriously take to heart the verses of the Bible that state not all people will believe in the Truth and the the world will indefinitely be decieved by people who hate Christ - but the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church

The struggle the Church has been through these past couple years with the sex scandals, the struggles with the role of homsexuality in the Episopal Church, and the crimes of money laundering and sexual misconduct in other Protestant Churches are proof of man's falleness and constant need of a savior - there is ''no saved once always saved'' because the nature of the world where we live is constantly trying to pull us away from Christ - no matter if you are a kid, a parent, a priest, a preacher, an elder, or a bishop. Trust that Christ is your Lord and Savior and he will always protect His Church, and redeem and comfort all those who seek refuge in Him. In this way I came to realize the Truth of the Catholic faith.

I will remember you in prayers and I hope this helps - God Bless

[CatholicAndFanatical]

ICTHUS,

I've felt like this many of times. Its funny because I can always figure out when im on the right path to Christ because my temptation level will increase 100%. That dream that you've had was obviously the work of evil, and that means you are on the right path.

Satan is lazy, if you wasnt on the right path then he wouldnt mess with you as much. But since you were on the right path, and defending Christs Church you started having some crazy dreams, and you started to get hammered with anti-Catholic babble. Dont let it get you down, surrender it to God who will strenghthen you and take you out of this darkness.

I've been there dude, look on this phorum you'll see some threads where I doubted, it came from letting the anti-Catholic carp into my head. Be strong and pray, you'll come out of your funk.

God Bless,

[Azriel]

I didn't take the time to read everyone's responses, so my post may be similar, but ...

I think all of us have been there, and if someone hasn't they will be.

My uncle said something very wise to me when I was having serious doubts about my faith ... he said the closer you get to God, the harder Satan tries to get you away. Just think about that for a second ... the doubts may be Satan's way of getting to you, just as you are getting closer to God.

St. Therese is a perfect example of those dark times of Faith.

Pray through your doubt. You'll make it through.

Love to you.

[Ash Wednesday]

My dear Itchy,

I agree with what many have said on here -- that perhaps you should take a break from the debating and heavy theology, at least for a while. I don't think God is going to smack you down for that, because I've had "dark nights" regarding my faith many times. I've gotten in debates with other Christians until my face and tongue were blue, and tried reading this book, or that book, to get "the answers" and tried wrapping my head around heavy theological concepts that it just made me feel all messed up. (In my case I realized that I was also going through an undiagnosed severe depression and didn't even know it. I thought I was losing my mind.) I would have horrible nightmares and wake up believing that I was going to hell. So it's important to take dreams with a grain of salt -- or even a salt lick.

Considering what I have been through it always worries me when I see it happening to someone else -- are you constantly having nightmares like this? Panic attacks or persistent guilt? I'm also wondering if you're dealing with anxiety and depression. A condition like this just MAGNIFIES our faith questions, issues, and yes, even doubts to a point where it's almost unbearable.

There comes a time to be "pruned" in faith, and it's painful, and it's times like this, in my case, I usually scale back and simplify, and stay away from the heavy stuff, and concentrate on living out my Catholic faith simply but sincerely to the best of my ability and put the rest in God's loving hands. But I believe even in those horrible times, God is there and instrumental in helping us grow.

I'm praying for you my friend.

This post has been edited by Ash Wednesday: 23 October 2003 - 12:06 PM

[marielapin]

Everyone has given some really good advise.

I say, follow their advise, lay off the debate, and spend some time in Adoration. It's amazing what spending just 30 minutes a week can do for your relationship with God.

I just wanted to relate a similar story about freaky religious dreams. I had a hard time converting to Catholicism because of the opposition of my family and friends. I would have dreams constantly about the devil trying to get at me. I even thought I heard him speaking to me in my head once. (hasn't happened since). I was seriously scared.

I had a very scary dream once that I don't think I could ever forget. The devil and his minions were trying to chase after me and I was running like mad. They wanted me. So I ran to the Church and I found one of the priests. He came out holding the ciborium (container that holds the Eucharist during the consecration) and we went behind the Church. There was a huge painting of the Sacred Heart painted on the parking lot. He stood there on the painting and held up the Eucharist. I stood in the circle next to him and the demons circled around but could not come inside the circle. I was safe as long as I was near the Eucharist. There was an incredible power coming from the wafer that was keeping the demons at bay.

Satan wants you to doubt and does not want you to go to Adoration or Confession. Sometimes I have had great struggles to get myself to go. He works by playing on your weaknesses. Sometimes you are just too "tired", sometimes you are with your friends and you don't want to look "uncool", sometimes there is a show coming on you don't want to miss. These are all ridiculus excuses. Go anyway.

You defeat Satan by going to Adoration, to Confession and receiving the Eucharist. Because you are being tempted by him means you are on the right track.

I'll keep you in my prayers.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Great post Marielapin! Agreed totally!

[marielapin]

jrob8503, on Oct 23 2003, 02:00 PM, said:

Why is the Church so skeptical of all modern miracles until they are rigorously examined?

Why do some of the Church's teachings evolve as we discover more about the world?  Why wouldn't God have lead the Pope to a concrete set of rules from the get go, so things like the Crusades would be prevented?

Jrob, the reason why miracles are investigated it to find out if they are from God and not from Satan. Satan has the power to appear as someone Holy, but to preach false statements. The Church can never be too careful, because Satan likes to use un-obvious ways to put doubt in its members.

Can you give me some examples of "evolving" Church teachings? We do have a concrete set of rules, which have not changed. Anything "new"added to the teachings to the Church, were added because of changes in society, for example, birth control. The Church was opposed to birth control from the get go, but when the "pill" came out it issued a formal teaching on the matter. This is not the evolution of the Church, but the evolution of society.

The Church is outside of time. Its teachings do not change. It is the society outside of it that does.

[Lil Red]

jrob8503, on Oct 23 2003, 01:55 PM, said:

Wasn't prostituion once considered a "necessary evil" by the Church?  It isn't today.

where did the Church in its official teachings say this?