[M.SIGGA]

Although the Congregation of the Index ended in the 20th century, does anyone in the Church today still respect the old Index? I read a lot of this stuff while attending my really conservative Catholic high school and I was shocked to find out that all my honors English class assignments are all listed on the Index of Forbidden Books!?! I have also studied and read a lot of these authors in college and for my own pleasure. Even the Hunchback of Notre Dame is on here!?! Check out the list and reply what you think about it.


from: http://www.fordham.e...exlibrorum.html

Quote

Rabelais (CW)
Montaigne (Essais)
Descartes (Méditations Métaphysiques et 6 autres livres, 1948)
La Fontaine (Contes et Nouvelles)
Pascal (Pensées)
Montesquieu (Lettres Persanes, 1948)
Voltaire (Lettres philosophiques; Histoire des croisades; Cantiques des Cantiques),
Jean-Jacques Rousseau (Du Contrat Social; La Nouvelle Héloïse)
Denis Diderot (CW, Encyclopédie)
Helvétius (De l'Esprit; De l'homme, de ses facultés intellectuelles et de son éducation )
Casanova (Mémoires)
Sade (Justine, Juliette)
Mme De Stael (Corinne ou l'Italie)
Stendhal (Le Rouge et le noir, 1948),
Balzac (CW)
Victor Hugo (Notre Dame de Paris; Les misérables jusqu'en 1959)
Gustave Flaubert (Mme Bovary; Salammbô)
Alexandre Dumas (divers romans)
Emile Zola (CW)
Maeterlinck (CW)
Pierre Larousse (Grand Dictionnaire Universel),
Anatole France (prix Nobel en 1921, CW à l'Index en 1922),
Andre Gide (prix Nobel, CW à l'Index en 1952)
Jean Paul Sartre (Prix Nobel (refusé), CW à l'Index en 1959).

"One could ask what did the study of literature look like in religious schools?"

Other Authors Listed

Peter Abelard,
Erasmus
Nicholas. Machiavelli
John  Calvin
John Milton
Malebranche
Baruch Spinoza
John. Locke
Bishop Berkeley
David Hume
Condillac
d'Holbach
d'Alembert
La Mettrie
Condorcet
Daniel. Defoe
Jonathan. Swift
Swedenborg
Laurence. Sterne
Emmanuek. Kant
H. Heine
J. S. Mill
G. D'Annunzio
H. Bergson.

"Without any surprise, the Index also conatined many theologians and translators of the Bible, and historians of religion. For example:
Richard Simon (17-ième siècle) whose Histoire critique du Vieux Testament inaugured the critical study of sacred texts (taken up by  E. Renan and many others) and A. Loisy, (excommunicated in 1908).

Source:  for this Information:

http://www.union-fin...sInterdits.html

Another list on the net includes the following:

"In 1966 the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ceased publication of the INDEX but claimed that it still served as a "moral guide in so far as it reminds the conscience of the faithful they must avoid writings which can be dangerous to faith & morals." Today the Church may issue an "admonitum," a warning to the faithful, that a book might be dangerous. It is only a moral guide, however, without the force of ecclesiastical law."

The following have been condemned in the INDEX for being immoral or heretical or both.


SOME NOVELISTS IN THE INDEX
AUTHOR
Samuel Richardson (ENG)
Laurence Stern (ENG)

Stendhal (FR)
Victor Hugo (FR)

George Sand (FR)
Honore de Balzac (FR)
Eugene Sue (FR)
A. Dumas pere (FR)
A. Dumas fil (FR)
Gustave Flaubert (FR)

Gabriele D'Annunzio (IT)
Alberto Morovia (IT)

SOME NON-FICTION WRITERS IN THE INDEX
Thomas Hobbes (ENG)
Rene Descartes (FR)
Francis Bacon (ENG)

Michel de Montaigne(FR)
Benedict Spinoza(NETH)
John Milton (ENG)
Joseph Addison (ENG)
Richard Steel (ENG)

John Locke (ENG)

Emanuel Swedenborg (SW)
Daniel Defoe (ENG)
David Hume (SCOT)
Jean-Jacques Rousseau (FR)
Edward Gibbon (ENG)

Blaise Pascal (FR)
Oliver Goldsmith (ENG)
Immanual Kant (GER)
Giovanni Casanova (FR)
John Stuart Mill (ENG)
Ernest Renan (FR)
Emile Zola (FR)
Andrew Lang (ENG)
Henri Bergson (FR)
Benedetto Croce (IT)
Jean-paul Sartre (FR)

[hyperdulia again]

my personal theory is that the index was discontinued because there was nothing left to read...

i own every author whose name was on that list, before i stopped reading it...

[Good Friday]

Quote

Blaise Pascal (FR)

I thought Blaise Pascal was a Catholic? In Pierced By a Sword, Bud Macfarlane -- a very orthodox guy -- elaborates quite a bit on the famous Pascal's Wager and even depicts Blaise Pascal as experiencing the Beatific Vision. This is why I'm not understanding why he's on the forbidden books list. Anyone who knows, please do let me know. Inquiring minds want to know. ;)

As for some of the rest of them, they really should be on the list. :lol: Some of them should be forbidden for their sheer idiocy.

[PedroX]

I, for one, miss the days of the index. Ok, I never really lived through those days, but the idea of having an authority help to guide us is very appealing. I think that this is reflective of the problems that we are currently having with so many Bishops. They appear to be afraid to guide us in moral matters. They appear to not want to say "NO" to us for fear of giving offense. What has resulted is a confused populace. So, I say bring back the index. (of course, this squares neatly with my desire to be ruled by a king who loves unions!!)

peace...

[M.SIGGA]

Victor Hugo and the Hunchback of Notre Dame is on the index :( and I like that book and the Disney movie; there would be no Catholic liberal arts majors today if there was still an Index.

[PedroX]

Well, perhaps having the index as stricly prohibitive was a bit much, but definitely having it as a guidline would be nice, yes?

peace...

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

OK, so I have a question. I heard that the reason the index was discontniued was so that the books could be used for their "scholarly purposes." Do you think we have anything to gain from these books, or do they lead others astray?

[BLAZEr]

First of all, education is very different in the last 100 years than it ever was in the previous 1900. The idea of "freedom of speech" is a novel idea that begain in the enlightenment.

http://www.newadvent...then/07721a.htm

should tell you what you need to know.

[hyperdulia again]

almost everyone on that list was catholic.

[M.SIGGA]

Spiritual_Arsonist, on Nov 12 2003, 10:32 AM, said:

OK, so I have a question.  I heard that the reason the index was discontniued was so that the books could be used for their "scholarly purposes."  Do you think we have anything to gain from these books, or do they lead others astray?

It seems that the church opposed everything that promoted any advancement of humanism - the Papacy was also an absolute monarchy during the years of the Index so that might have played a role in how the Church responded to humanistic writers.

There is much to be gained from reading these books b/c they reveal a human reaction to much of the wrongs present in society. These are not the entire list of prohibited authors, but mostly the French philosophes who were largely republican (as opposed to the monarchy, I'm not talking about the American political party) and anti-clerical, but we wouldn't know about what common people experienced under their tyrannical absolute governments if these philosophes didn't write their books, plays, poetry, etc.

Total secular humanism can be dangerous, but all humanistic ideas are not bad. They lead followers and spiritually weak people astray.

[Good Friday]

I think a revised index that is a guide rather than a ban would be great.

Now, that said, does anyone know why Blaise Pascal is on the index? lol. I'm so curious.

[Ellenita]

It's an intriguing list! A number of them were required reading on my religion and philosophy course at the university which I attended as a student - the course was taught entirely by catholics, one of whom was a nun!

I truely believe God gave us a mind, so we should use it. I don't know what the fear is which leads to books being banned - do we consider our faith of so little worth that it won't withstand being exposed to ideas which we might not always agree with or which might conflict with our faith? And of course, if you start to read something and find it offensive, you can always put the book down!

However, I as much as I might want to, I find it difficult to argue against the notion of censorship competely, especially in the present day of high technology where graphic pornography is instantly accessible and arrives absolutely uninvited on my email account on a daily basis so that I now no longer open emails unless I know the email address. Maybe the powers that be in the church foresaw the arrival of such material when they banned the work of people like the Marquis d'Sade!

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

M.SIGGA, on Nov 12 2003, 05:00 PM, said:

It seems that the church opposed everything that promoted any advancement of humanism - the Papacy was also an absolute monarchy during the years of the Index so that might have played a role in how the Church responded to humanistic writers.

There is much to be gained from reading these books b/c they reveal a human reaction to much of the wrongs present in society. These are not the entire list of prohibited authors, but mostly the French philosophes who were largely republican (as opposed to the monarchy, I'm not talking about the American political party) and anti-clerical, but we wouldn't know about what common people experienced under their tyrannical absolute governments if these philosophes didn't write their books, plays, poetry, etc.

Total secular humanism can be dangerous, but all humanistic ideas are not bad. They lead followers and spiritually weak people astray.

Thanks. Well summed up. I think a guide, not an index would be a good idea. But it will probably not happen at least in a long time.

[M.SIGGA]

Good Friday, on Nov 12 2003, 08:05 PM, said:

I think a revised index that is a guide rather than a ban would be great. 

Now, that said, does anyone know why Blaise Pascal is on the index?  lol.  I'm so curious.

In 1646 Pascal converted to the Catholic sect Jansenism; which argued in favor of John Calvin's teaching on Absolute Predestination, except applied to Catholicism. During his lifetime the Jansenists were not yet in schism and they were not yet called heretics. He defended Jansenism in his Provincial Letters, which made an apology for Jansen's ideas and made fun of the Jesuit order and churchmen who opposed Jansenistic ideas. It also discredited the Jesuit approach to weeding out heresy and winning theological arguments. Into the eighteenth century Jansenism was declared heretical and many bishops in France and in Holland left the Church. Louis XIV ordered his book to be shredded and burned in public squares all over France.

[Katholikos]

"THE ROMAN INDEX
The Roman Index proves, not the Church's intolerance, but her zeal for the salvation of souls. As Christ's representative, she is bound to safeguard by every means in her power the faith and morals of her children. Experience has taught her that many make shipwreck of their faith, and give themselves over to uncleanness on account of their indiscriminate reading. The State protects the public health of its citizens by combating epidemics, sequestering men and woman afflicted wth contagious diseases like smallpox, and restricting the sale of nartotics and poisons. The Church is bound to protect her children from the deadening and poisioning effects of the perverted written word."

(There's more . . . from The Question Box, Rev. Bertrand L. Conway, 1929, Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle.)

No longer are people with contagious diseases sequestered. Syphillis is required to be reported, but not AIDS. This is the age of freedom of the individual and "civil rights," and to h-e-double toothpicks with the public good.

People read (and watch) whatever they please these days, and we see the results in the moral decline of our country.

Bring back the Index!

Good Friday, I don't know the answer to your question. It may have been an error in judgement on the person who placed Pascal on the index, or it may have been a particular statement or paragraph in Pascal's work that caused the Church concern.

I think doing away with the Index was based on the same faulty logic that caused the Church to do away with abstinence from meat on Fridays -- the bishops had the mistaken idea that the laity were now better educated, more mature, and had enough self-discipline to handle it ourselves. The result is that we feast on poisonous fare that is destructive to our souls and fast not at all. We are not mature enough to discipline ourselves.

JMJ Likos

[M.SIGGA]

Katholikos, on Nov 12 2003, 10:18 PM, said:

Bring back the Index! 

Good Friday, I don't know the answer to your question.  It may have been an error in judgement on the person who placed Pascal on the index, or it may have been a particular statement or paragraph in Pascal's work that caused the Church concern. 

Innocent X and Clement IX each issued bulls condemning the Jansenists, so there is no room for error. Pascal's works were well written and researched, and they were used to fuel the ultra-conservative Jansenist arguments against the growing secularism and liberalism that flourished in Catholic nations before, during, and after the French Revolution. He is still honored as a spiritual writer by the Church b/c Jansenism was not yet condemned during his lifetime; he also wrote many other inspirational letters and books.

Bringing back the Index would plunge the world into ignorance and darkness, and the Church knows this and that's why they got rid of it. Without knowledge it would be impossible to refute heresy and false teachings, or correct the mistakes made by governments and churchmen so those injustices don't happen again.

[Katholikos]

M.SIGGA, on Nov 8 2003, 01:49 AM, said:

Check out the list and reply what you think about it.

Well, I won't be responding to any more of your posts, that's for sure!

[PedroX]

So condmening heretical and immoral works would "plunge the world into ignorance and darkness"? I'm not sure I follow this. Could you please elaborate? My thinking tends to be with Katholikos on this matter. The index was thrown out along with much personal piety, bishops who pastored their flocks and alter rails.

peace...

[M.SIGGA]

Katholikos, on Nov 12 2003, 10:50 PM, said:

M.SIGGA, on Nov 8 2003, 01:49 AM, said:

Check out the list and reply what you think about it.

Well, I won't be responding to any more of your posts, that's for sure!

I'm really sorry and I didn't mean to be rude or mallicious if I appeared to be, I posted this topic here to encourage debate - this is the debate table after all. I'm business pre-law and big fan of speech and debate and I thought this would be a place were different arguments/topics/opinions could be posted and challenged. Sorry again if my approach was offensive.

[Norseman82]

I think what we need today is an index for TV shows and movies as well, at least something along the lines of the NCCB movie ratings. Too much trash in entertainment these days.