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tomasio127
QUOTE(Aloysius @ Dec 17 2005, 03:10 PM)
I'm engaged to a wonderful girl and planning to get betrothed in the Church as soon as possible cool.gif We've known each other lightly for six years and have been dating for 7 months now.. it will be a couple years before we get married though.

My view on love as an act of angelic willpower, i.e. a decision made in one moment that lasts forever, is what gives me hope for my marriage and everything D.gif... but yeah, I like to reject that whole fated-soul-mate concept... if I was looking for the comparatively best girl on the planet for me, I would have to try out what, like 3 billion of them, to be sure.  No, this isn't about whether she's better than any possible other girl, this is about a love for one individual girl that I am willing to commit to with an act of will to last my whole life (or at least her whole life! haha).  If there is some girl out there who is "more" compatible with me, who I would "fit" better with or something, well-- I am right now rejecting her for the rest of my life (or again, like I said, the rest of hers P.gif).  I am choosing this girl, there is no second guessing.  I have never met a girl I want more, but if I did it doesn't matter to me.  I'm not looking for the relative best, I'm choosing her with total disregard as to what any other girl on this planet is like-- it doesn't matter to me all I know or care about is what this one girl is like D.gif

And while marriage is a vocation in that it is a state of life, it is the default vocation, the natural vocation.  religious vocations are super-natural vocations that actually have a real calling, a real positive demand from God that the person called has to actually actively answer.  it is in the absence of such a call to the supernatural vocation that the marriage vocation is the state of life you ought to accept and seek out.
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That's beautiful, very similar to my views, and a much more eloquent expression of them than I managed to give Alison the other day...
Lil Red
QUOTE(emalouhow @ Dec 21 2005, 09:45 AM)
So does nobody do anything with their spouse?  huh.gif
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well, for me, it's hard. he's not Catholic, and although i'm praying for his conversion, he only goes to Mass with me on holidays (although i make the offer other times of the year).

we were on a bowling league together last year! P.gif
Didacus
QUOTE(Aloysius @ Dec 17 2005, 01:10 PM)
[snip]
And while marriage is a vocation in that it is a state of life, it is the default vocation, the natural vocation.  religious vocations are super-natural vocations that actually have a real calling, a real positive demand from God that the person called has to actually actively answer.  it is in the absence of such a call to the supernatural vocation that the marriage vocation is the state of life you ought to accept and seek out.
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I agree that marriage is the natural vocation of this world, hence could be refered to as the 'default' vocation.

But marriage can just as much be the reply to a calling, a real postive demand from God that we actively answer.

I do admit that the other vocation, such as priesthood, has a certain 'step-up' from marriage in that it is a relation purely with God, but that does not mean God is not part of marraige by any shot!

I think your wording might require a bit of work here with all due respect.

Waht is it really that forms a 'higher calling'?
emalouhow
Bowling league! Awesome!

That's what I'm talking about. How does bowling together help you in your relationship.

This is good...give me more people!
Didacus
QUOTE(Lil Red @ Dec 21 2005, 10:38 AM)
well, for me, it's hard. he's not Catholic, and although i'm praying for his conversion, he only goes to Mass with me on holidays (although i make the offer other times of the year).

we were on a bowling league together last year! P.gif
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What is his religion? Sorry if you mentionned before, I lose track of threads sometimes. pinch.gif

Lil Red
QUOTE(emalouhow @ Dec 21 2005, 10:57 AM)
Bowling league!  Awesome!  That's what I'm talking about.  How does bowling together help you in your relationship.[right][snapback]832815[/snapback][/right]


Well, it was nice for us just to relax together (outside of the home) without having to worry about life...sigh ... i wish we still did the league together.

QUOTE(Didacus @ Dec 21 2005, 12:03 PM)
What is his religion?  Sorry if you mentionned before, I lose track of threads sometimes. pinch.gif[right][snapback]832888[/snapback][/right]

he is not of any religion. agnostic, maybe? he believes in God. he's unsure about the whole Trinity thing.
Didacus
QUOTE(Lil Red @ Dec 21 2005, 01:04 PM)
[snip]
he is not of any religion. agnostic, maybe? he believes in God. he's unsure about the whole Trinity thing.
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I see...

Best of luck At least he is not an Atheist. (When I was dating, any girl who came ot me saying she was an Atheist was automatically scratched off my list... about 75% of them.. lol)
tomasio127
popcorn.gif

Keep talking...
Lil Red
QUOTE(Didacus @ Dec 22 2005, 06:29 AM)
I see...

Best of luck  At least he is not an Atheist.  (When I was dating, any girl who came ot me saying she was an Atheist was automatically scratched off my list...  about 75% of them.. lol)
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well, when we were dating, i wasn't exactly living up to my Catholic faith. i'm a revert (is that the right word??)....i actually only started to live up to my faith after our marriage when i started working as a youth minister.

i am praying and sacrificing for his conversion - at times he is curious why Catholics do certain things - and i try to give him the best answers but of course, sometimes words fail me.

something good that happened - we were talking about going to Midnight Mass (and i make him come to Mass with me at least on holidays) and i really like one parish's midnight Mass (it's a hispanic parish that is very joyful and happy) - and he said "I don't want to go there because I don't understand half of it" - and i was being literal and thought, "well, of course you don't - half of it is in spanish". but i was talking about it with a friend and she said to think about what he said - and that it sounds like he wants to understand it - he wants to hear the words - and that he sounds more curious about it than he lets on. i was like "WOAH!"

anyway, ummmm yeahhhh.
azaelia
I heart marriage. love.gif Me and my bf were talking about it the other day, and how the woman changes her last name and becomes a new person by attaching herself to the man, and they both leave behind their families to begin their own. It made me all warm and fuzzy. happy.gif

Nothing makes me happier than the thought of being a wife and mother.
Didacus
QUOTE(Lil Red @ Dec 22 2005, 11:35 AM)
well, when we were dating, i wasn't exactly living up to my Catholic faith.

[snip]

it - he wants to hear the words - and that he sounds more curious about it than he lets on. i was like "WOAH!"

anyway, ummmm yeahhhh.
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Don't give up, your spouse can sometimes surprise you.

I started praying the rosary every night a little while back. My spouse surprised me a great deal by startying to pray the rosary with me! We've been praying it every night for three nights now; and we plan to keep doing this...well... for ever!

We have a lifetime to get to know each other, and so do you and your spouse; so take your time, and give him his space. But don't give up.

My prayers for both of you.
Lil Red
QUOTE(Didacus @ Dec 22 2005, 01:18 PM)
Don't give up, your spouse can sometimes surprise you.

I started praying the rosary every night a little while back.  My spouse surprised me a great deal by startying to pray the rosary with me!  We've been praying it every night for three nights now; and we plan to keep doing this...well... for ever!

We have a lifetime to get to know each other, and so do you and your spouse; so take your time, and give him his space.  But don't give up.

My prayers for both of you.
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thank you for this...sometimes i need a reminder that i'm on God's timetable, He's not on mine! lol
hugheyforlife
red thats awesome! im so glad to hear that! such good news... clap2.gif
mpalasp
I'm getting married on January 6, 2007! We are really excited. lol.gif
hugheyforlife
QUOTE(mpalasp @ Dec 23 2005, 10:04 AM)
I'm getting married on January 6, 2007! We are really excited. lol.gif
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congratulations! love.gif
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(azaelia @ Dec 22 2005, 01:10 PM)
I heart marriage. love.gif Me and my bf were talking about it the other day, and how the woman changes her last name and becomes a new person by attaching herself to the man, and they both leave behind their families to begin their own. It made me all warm and fuzzy. happy.gif

Nothing makes me happier than the thought of being a wife and mother.
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popcorn.gif
zabbazooey
This thread makes me happy love.gif
mpalasp
QUOTE(hugheyforlife @ Dec 23 2005, 09:18 AM)
congratulations! love.gif
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Thank you!!
prose
QUOTE(emalouhow @ Dec 21 2005, 10:57 AM)
Bowling league!  Awesome!

That's what I'm talking about.  How does bowling together help you in your relationship.

This is good...give me more people!
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I am a youth minister, and my husband helps me with the ministry by volunteering at all of my events (when we can get babysitters). It is nice to work for the Lord together!!

Plus we play video games together all the time.

And now, every Friday, our friends (another married couple) come over and we have been playing Scene It.. and (shh this is a secret) Karaoke Revolution... It isn't as geeky as it sounds. It's pretty fun! They dragged us into it!!

phatcatholic
QUOTE(azaelia @ Dec 22 2005, 03:10 PM)
I heart marriage. love.gif Me and my bf were talking about it the other day, and how the woman changes her last name and becomes a new person by attaching herself to the man, and they both leave behind their families to begin their own. It made me all warm and fuzzy. happy.gif

Nothing makes me happier than the thought of being a wife and mother.
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Nothing makes me happier than the thought of being a husband and a father.
Moosey
I know people might say I'm too young to sorta know my vocation, but...there have been many instances where I have felt God really wants me to be a wife and mother, and dangit...Im gonna go for it! yahoo.gif

I'm wicked excited, guy. cool.gif
tomasio127
QUOTE(mpalasp @ Dec 23 2005, 11:04 AM)
I'm getting married on January 6, 2007! We are really excited. lol.gif
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Congrats....

Come on, keep the thread going...

popcorn.gif
hugheyforlife
QUOTE(prose @ Dec 23 2005, 05:43 PM)
I am a youth minister, and my husband helps me with the ministry by volunteering at all of my events (when we can get babysitters).  It is nice to work for the Lord together!!

Plus we play video games together all the time.

And now, every Friday, our friends (another married couple) come over and we have been playing Scene It..  and (shh this is a secret) Karaoke Revolution...  It isn't as geeky as it sounds.  It's pretty fun!  They dragged us into it!!
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i didnt say this either... but that sounds like almost as much fun as a barrel of monkeys!! P.gif

QUOTE(Moosey @ Dec 23 2005, 10:10 PM)
I know people might say I'm too young to sorta know my vocation, but...there have been many instances where I have felt God really wants me to be a wife and mother, and dangit...Im gonna go for it! yahoo.gif

I'm wicked excited, guy. cool.gif
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i dont think youre too young to know. i do think it is important, however, to keep yourself open to ANYTHING and to not put any other possible vocation out of mind until you say "I do." but we all know youre doing that anyway wink.gif



i used to talk to one of my really good friends about marriage and kids. even though we never quite made it to being romantically involved, our conversations helped me to come to more definite conclusions about what i wanted/needed in a husband and how i would raise my family. a lot of our ideals about the family were very much in-tune and it helped me to know i wasnt nuts! lol.gif
the_rev
Just curious, what are the ages of you and your spouse? Howe far do you differ in age?

My spiritual director told me to start dating and I'm a Junior, dating a Freshmen. So she is 14, I'm sixteen, only two years off. I really like her so I thank God for letting me get to know her more.
Lil Red
my hubby is 2 months older than i am.

btw, i took him to Mass on Friday and he was full of questions (which is great), then we went to the 9:30pm Christmas Eve Mass and afterward, we had a big discussion all the way home (which is 30 minutes from church)....so i really am getting a wonderful opportunity to have God speak through me to him.

i need to keep the prayers up! thank you to everyone who is praying for my hubby as well.
hugheyforlife
such wonderful news. continued prayers.
Brother Adam
Someone asked:

QUOTE
What do you want from it?


Holiness. It isn't easy.

QUOTE
What do you have to "give" it?


You're life. To borrow the phrase, you must give total self-giving love. Nothing less works.

QUOTE
Why "even" get Married?


Even before their were priests, there was marriage. God made it good, made us co-creators with God, and in his first command to man, called him to "be fruitfuland multiply".

QUOTE
s Marriage your vocation" How do you know?


Yes, because the Church says so.

QUOTE
What qualities are you looking for in a spouse?


They should be:

Your best friend
Open to children
Willing to raise your children Catholic
They should not be a danger to your Catholic faith

QUOTE
Do you have the right to "change" your spouse?


Its not a matter of a right. You will change your spouse and your spouse will change you. You will become more like each other as you fall more deeply in love with each other every day.
hugheyforlife
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be_thou_my_vision
Someone said earlier about priesthood and religious being a "higher calling"...
I guess I really don't understand this idea because all vocations are holy and equal. I think that if the question is that only a priest or religious is "God's alone," they are mistaken. Don't you think a married person is God's alone too? I mean, if they are called to marriage, then they fulfill that vocation for God, then they belong for God and His Kingdom. Don't you think that it is a little unfair to say that "Sister so-and-so" is more God's than I am God's?
I see living a holy and God-centered marriage is being completely God's. They consecrate themself to God through the vows they take to their spouse.
If it is God's will for you to bind your heart and soul with someone else in matrimony, and you do that, don't those hearts totally belong to God still after marriage?
If you love your spouse, then God is there in your hearts, and you belong to Him. It says that "God is Love."
Loving a spouse is also loving God through loving your spouse... kinda like a continuum, always loving one another, more glory to God!
msahara
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 12:52 PM)
Someone said earlier about priesthood and religious being a "higher calling"...
I guess I really don't understand this idea because all vocations are holy and equal. I think that if the question is that only a priest or religious is "God's alone," they are mistaken. Don't you think a married person is God's alone too? I mean, if they are called to marriage, then they fulfill that vocation for God, then they belong for God and His Kingdom. Don't you think that it is a little unfair to say that "Sister so-and-so" is more God's than I am God's?
I see living a holy and God-centered marriage is being completely God's. They consecrate themself to God through the vows they take to their spouse.
If it is God's will for you to bind your heart and soul with someone else in matrimony, and you do that, don't those hearts totally belong to God still after marriage?
If you love your spouse, then God is there in your hearts, and you belong to Him. It says that "God is Love."
Loving a spouse is also loving God through loving your spouse... kinda like a continuum, always loving one another, more glory to God!
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While you are right to say that all vocations are holy, I still must agree that the religious vocation is an objectively higher state of life than the laity based on Aquinas' comparison between the contemplative and active life found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/318201.htm

He basically says that the contemplative life is occupied with the intellect which is the highest faculty of man while the active life is occupied with external things.

Moreover, the Church teaches the objective superiority of the religious vocation based on Christ's words found in the Gospel of Matthew: “And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life”.

Also, the religious vocation is a fuller expression of the baptismal vows. The consecrated adherence to the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience make it objectively higher than the lay vocation.

All of this is not to say that people in the religious vocation are better than people in the lay vocation. There are more than a few examples to show that this is not true. Nevertheless, the state of consecrated virginity and being set apart from the world for God's purposes is necessarily higher than the state of being in the world and not under the vow of virginity.
Brother Adam
This was also explained earlier. Religious life is a higher calling than married life because religious live out today the calling that we all have in the kingdom of heaven "when we will give nor be given in marriage". They live the relationship with God now, that we all will one day. This is seen throughout the Bible with the calling of many prophets and apostles to celibacy for the kingdom.

Marriage is good and holy, and it is a wonderful calling and vocation.

QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 12:52 PM)
Someone said earlier about priesthood and religious being a "higher calling"...
I guess I really don't understand this idea because all vocations are holy and equal. I think that if the question is that only a priest or religious is "God's alone," they are mistaken. Don't you think a married person is God's alone too? I mean, if they are called to marriage, then they fulfill that vocation for God, then they belong for God and His Kingdom. Don't you think that it is a little unfair to say that "Sister so-and-so" is more God's than I am God's?
I see living a holy and God-centered marriage is being completely God's. They consecrate themself to God through the vows they take to their spouse.
If it is God's will for you to bind your heart and soul with someone else in matrimony, and you do that, don't those hearts totally belong to God still after marriage?
If you love your spouse, then God is there in your hearts, and you belong to Him. It says that "God is Love."
Loving a spouse is also loving God through loving your spouse... kinda like a continuum, always loving one another, more glory to God!
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be_thou_my_vision
I just don't like it when people assume that because someone is married, then they are not totally living for God.
It drives me crazy.
So I just wanted to empasize the fact that one vocation is not "more" holy than another vocation.
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 12:55 PM)
So I just wanted to empasize the fact that one vocation is not "more" holy than another vocation.
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not really true. Holy orders are objectively the most sacred.

Subjectively speaking, the best vocation is that to which one is authentically called. Thus, just because a particular vocation is objectively higher, it doesn't follow that the person in that vocation is more holy.

Depite the heresy I was taught in my Christian Marriage class at FUS, the Church has many times declared that the priesthood and consecrated celibacy are more blessed states then that of marriage. The religious and/or clerical state is an objectively higher calling.

Trent declared, contrary to a certain theology professor at FUS:
Canon X. If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Besides this several other statements come to mind. In more recent times I think Pope Pius XII's encyclical on holy virginity is a good one. To say nothing of John Paul II's teachings in Familiaris Consortio and the Theology of the Body.

"Virginity or celibacy, by liberating the human heart in a unique way, "so as to make it burn with greater love for God and all humanity," bears witness that the Kingdom of God and His justice is that pearl of great price which is preferred to every other value no matter how great, and hence must be sought as the only definitive value. It is for this reason that the Church, throughout her history, has always defended the superiority of this charism to that of marriage, by reason of the wholly singular link which it has with the Kingdom of God." - JP2, Familiaris Consortio

another Catholic teaching: "the priesthood is the sublimest dignity that God can confer on a human being."

But one would err to denigrate marriage. As Chrysostom says:
"Whoever denigrates marriage also diminishes the glory of virginity. Whoever praises it makes virginity more admirable and resplendent. What appears good only in comparison with evil would not be particularly good. It is something better than what is admitted to be good that is the most excellent good."
daugher-of-Mary
QUOTE
I just don't like it when people assume that because someone is married, then they are not totally living for God.
It drives me crazy.


That's definitely not the assumption on PM, especially since we have some wonderful married folks setting the example love.gif All that was being said was that religious/priestly vocations are "objectively" higher because they prefigure what we will all be living in Eternity. The vocations themselves do not determine personal holiness!

What L_D said cool.gif
be_thou_my_vision
A. I think everyone needs to come to their own conclusion of God. No one knows the mind of God, the true meaning of scriptures, or what St. Thomas Aquinus meant when he wrote stuff.
B. For me, very little of this makes sense because I do not pretend to know the mind of God. I go by what is revealed to me in the depths of my heart.
C. The Trinity is the spouse of my soul. I live and move and have by being in him. I praise him always. This is prefiguring eternity also.
D. Religious and priests still live in the world. They make mistakes and sin.
E. Sorry if I am upsetting someone.
Laudate_Dominum
Well, its been a basic teaching of Christianity for all of history, and it originates in the teachings of Christ Himself and was expressed by St. Paul as well. It has also been clearly expounded upon by the fathers, certain councils and many popes. I don't think a well informed Catholic has any excuse for obstinately rejecting this doctrine.

Perhaps some reading materials will be helpful in understanding these teachings.

Here are a couple key encyclicals:

For understanding consecrated virginity/celibacy:
SACRA VIRGINITAS
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii...ginitas_en.html

For appreciating the priesthood:
MEDIATOR DEI
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii...tor-dei_en.html

I highly recommend JP2's insights in the Theology of the Body. Here are some of the key audiences:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB76.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB80.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB79.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB74.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB83.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB63.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB85.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB75.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB84.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB82.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB78.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB73.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB72.HTM
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TB81.HTM

Some other cool things:
http://www.catholicculture.com/past_discus...pril_18_02.html
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2907.htm
http://www.wf-f.org/03-4-Virginity.html
http://www.christopherwest.com/article12.asp

And with regards to the priesthood specifically:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102fea5.asp
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Pr...esthood_001.htm
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Pr...esthood_003.htm
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Pr...esthood_004.htm
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Pr...esthood_026.htm
http://fisheaters.com/holyorders3.html
http://www.catholic-pages.com/forum/topic....ue&TOPIC_ID=557
http://www.catholic.com/library/Celibacy_a..._Priesthood.asp
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6SACERD.HTM
http://www.monksofadoration.org/conslife.html
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/SYNFINMG.htm

God bless.
be_thou_my_vision
The original issue was talking about how some people say that marriage is not as "high up" as the religious vocation.
I am saying that vocations are equal and holy.
I am not excluding doctrin. I love the Catholic Church. I am not making a parody of it's teachings in any way. I am simply saying that the Lord lives in us all, the same way because of his good Spirit. All vocations are beautiful and holy in the sight of God because he calls us in his own special way to one or the other, and all are equally needed in the Church.
My uncle is a priest and I love priests anyway. I appreciate the religious life and priesthood, and married life because they are the "Church in miniature" that raises the future priests and religious. I do not like to think of Father so-and-so's mother as having a "lower vocation."
Plus, Mary was married. And we all know that she was not "stuck on earth." She was totally God's.
I see what you are saying, L_D, and I appreciate your suggestions, but I have a little different of a perspective.
be_thou_my_vision
I am also not suggesting that priests should be married or whatever, I totally agree that celebacy/chastity is an amazing state of life. But chastity in marriage is also blessed. Secular Carmelites (I am one) take a promise of chastity, even if they are married. It is promising to stay faithful to the spouse and to God in word, thought, and action. I am saying that God's work is God's work, and who are we (even Popes) to say that one vocation is higher than another. God has called each of us to specific work whether celebate or married, and not to rate vocations on importance scale.
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 02:14 PM)
The original issue was talking about how some people say that marriage is not as "high up" as the religious vocation.
I am saying that vocations are equal and holy.
I am not excluding doctrin. I love the Catholic Church. I am not making a parody of it's teachings in any way. I am simply saying that the Lord lives in us all, the same way because of his good Spirit. All vocations are beautiful and holy in the sight of God because he calls us in his own special way to one or the other, and all are equally needed in the Church.
My uncle is a priest and I love priests anyway. I appreciate the religious life and priesthood, and married life because they are the "Church in miniature" that raises the future priests and religious. I do not like to think of Father so-and-so's mother as having a "lower vocation."
Plus, Mary was married. And we all know that she was not "stuck on earth." She was totally God's.
I see what you are saying, L_D, and I appreciate your suggestions, but I have a little different of a perspective.
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It still seems like you are confusing the subjective and objective aspects of a vocation. Also, you seem to be implying that recognizing the superiority of certain vocations means the denigration of marriage. We should recognize the goodness and beauty of all vocations, but it is heinous to blur or distort the singular status of religious life.
All I can say is that your perspective is not consitent with the mind of the Church and your statement that "I am saying that vocations are equal", taken in an objective sense would constitute heresy.
And yes, Mary was married, but she is also ever virgin. But her vocation was unique in the Church anyway, and all vocations are nuptial in character. But earthly marriage is just a sign of the ultimate eschatological marriage in which consecrated life participates in in a concrete way.
Just because a certain state is objectively higher, doesn't mean that people in that state are "better" or "more holy". Certainly one ought to be "totally God's" in marriage as in any vocation. It is not devaluing marriage, it is rather seeing it in the proper perspective. It is not necessary or even proper to devalue marriage to appreciate the objective superiority of consecrated life. But to devalue that "pearl of great price", is a serious error.
be_thou_my_vision
What do you mean by "a pearl of great price?"
I do not mean to devalue consecrated life. I am thinking about it for myself, and I have talked about the consecrated life with many religious. I have also talked to my mother, who is a very holy woman, and I feel like many people devalue marriage as a way to totally consecrate your life to God. That was the main point in my first comment. Sorry this is so confusing!
Jenny
be_thou_my_vision
I do not mean to say that the Church devalues marriage, I just mean some individuals don't see that it is also a way to live an extremely Christian life.
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 02:20 PM)
I am also not suggesting that priests should be married or whatever, I totally agree that celebacy/chastity is an amazing state of life. But chastity in marriage is also blessed. Secular Carmelites (I am one) take a promise of chastity, even if they are married. It is promising to stay faithful to the spouse and to God in word, thought, and action. I am saying that God's work is God's work, and who are we (even Popes) to say that one vocation is higher than another. God has called each of us to specific work whether celebate or married, and not to rate vocations on importance scale.
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I'm quite familiar with the perspective you espouse. It is particularly american/egalitarian and is hardly in line with the Church. The superiority of celibacy for the sake of the kingdom is rooted in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
This statement: "and who are we (even Popes) to say that one vocation is higher than another" is particularly modernist and anti-Catholic. If you're denying the authority of the Church to teach doctrine then you are not Catholic.
Celibacy for the kingdom is objectively higher because that which it embraces is objectively higher. The ressurection is superior to this life, and marriage no longer exists in the resurrection according to Christ.
It is more eschatologically advanced.

I think one thing you aren't grasping is a point I've already made more than once. JP2 sums it up well: "The superiority of continence to matrimony in the authentic Tradition of the Church never means disparagement of marriage or belittlement of its essential value."

It's not a contest of which vocation is better, it is rather an affirmation of the value in renouncing the good of marriage and family for the sake of the kingdom. I highly suggest looking into the matter more fully before pronouncing the popes (as well as the fathers, and the whole of the tradition) to be in error.
Laudate_Dominum
I don't mean to be rude. This is just something that is very serious. As I mentioned before, the heresy that all vocations are objectively equal was taught at my college and I've encountered this mentality not infrequently. I suppose I have strong feelings about it. Besides the fact that this perspective is anathema, it is just so plainly contrary to the truth of marriage and consecrated life. I realize the intentions are usually good (to defend marriage), but it is an attack on celibacy and really attacks marriage as well. The two states must be understood in their complimentarity, not in opposition to one another.

At this point I believe I'm called to be joined in wedlock with a woman, boogie down and have some babies, and I don't particularly feel that this calling is cheap or "selling out" to the world. However, it remains essential to understand that consecrated life is a higher calling. I don't know why so many people feel the need to attack this fact, except perhaps if out of pride or sheer misunderstanding. I suppose in general it is because they assume this fact implies the denigration of marriage. Yet this is not so. Marriage is properly understood, and its goodness and value are fully appreciated in light of this fact and the relationship between these vocations.
The other misconception is that this objective superiority means that consecrated persons are by default "holier" than married folks. This also does not follow by any means and simply indicates to me that a person with this view has not grasped the nature and meaning of this objective superiority.
The Pope's explanation in the theology of the body is once again what I would first recommend.
be_thou_my_vision
The issue we were discussing was the issue of if God sees one person higher or superior than another because of vocation.
We seem to have gotten off track.
I'm glad you have it all figured out for you. For me, you can write 1 million or 10 million words and cite a whole bunch of references and call me names and judge me and condenm me, but it still doesn't change the fact that no living man can know the mind of God.
Not me, not you, and not the Pope.
For me, there's not one particle of truth to the assertion that God somehow prizes or values consecrated life above married life.
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 03:08 PM)
For me, there's not one particle of truth to the assertion that God somehow prizes or values consecrated life above married life.
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ok, well then I guess marriage sucks. If sacrificing marriage and family for God is worthless, then marriage and family is worthless. That's part of the problem with devaluing celibacy for the kingdom.

Because it is natural to desire spousal love and sex, it is "valuable" in God's eyes to sacrifice that out of singular love for Him. By your thinking it would seem that there is nothing valuable or extraordinary in consecrated life. Here's a little something:

QUOTE
CELIBACY FOR THE KINGDOM & THE FULFILLMENT OF HUMAN SEXUALITY

“For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.  He who is able to receive this let him receive it” (Mt 19:12).

A eunuch is someone incapable of sexual relations.  Thus, when Christ speaks of eunuchs from birth, he’s referring to people who are incapable of sexual union because of some birth-defect.  When he speaks of those who have been made eunuchs by men, he’s probably referring to those sorry souls who have fallen under the blade of castration.  But what is a eunuch for the kingdom?

Place yourself in the shoes (or sandals) of one of the descendents of Abraham who was hearing Christ utter these words.  You’ve known and understood from your youth that God’s promise to your father in the faith was to make him exceedingly fruitful, the father of a multitude of nations (Gn 17:2-6).  In fact, every time God established a covenant with his people, whether it was with Adam (Gn 1:28), Noah (Gn 9:1), Jacob (Gn 35:10-12), or Moses (Lv 26:9), God called them to be “fruitful and multiply.”

God’s kingdom would be established by the multitude of Abraham’s descendents.  Indeed, the messiah was to come from Abraham’s seed.  Hence, those who couldn’t engage in sexual union (i.e., eunuchs) were seen as cursed by God, and even excluded from “the kingdom.”

Yet this Jesus is saying that some men and women who are perfectly capable of sexual union might actually choose to abstain for the whole duration of their lives + specifically for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.  WHAT?

Christ’s words mark a dramatic turning point in God’s revelation.  Such a choice is almost too difficult for the sons and daughters of Abraham to comprehend.  Indeed, many of Christ’s followers throughout history would also find the celibate vocation difficult to understand.  Some, in fact, as Christ seemed to acknowledge, would not be able to “receive” it at all.

Marriage, Sex, & Celibacy Are Interrelated

John Paul II offers us a refreshing perspective on the meaning of celibacy for the kingdom in his series of general audiences known as the “theology of the body” (TB).  He demonstrates that, far from devaluing sexuality and marriage, true Christian celibacy actually points to their ultimate fulfillment.  In fact, we simply can’t understand the Christian meaning of sex and marriage unless we understand the Christian meaning of celibacy.

Marriage, sex, and the celibate vocation are much more interrelated than we might first think.  They’re also interdependent.  When each is given proper esteem and respect, the delicate balance among them is maintained.

On the other hand, if any of the three (marriage, sex, or celibacy) is devalued, overvalued, or otherwise disrespected, the others inevitably suffer.  It’s no coincidence, for example, that the sexual revolution brought both a dramatic rise in divorce and a dramatic decline in vocations to the priesthood and religious life.  Nor is it any coincidence that historical misinterpretations of the celibate vocation have led to a disparagement of sex and marriage.

All such error stems from failure to deal with the tension of paradox.  To say that celibacy demonstrates the fulfillment of sexuality is not a contradiction of terms.  It’s a paradox.  There’s something mentally torturous about reconciling the (seemingly) irreconcilable poles of paradox.  So, to avoid the discomfort we focus on one aspect of a truth and end up denying others.

But it’s precisely by pressing into the tension of paradox that we discover the fullness of truth.  We must find our home in that tension.  Only then can we properly understand the profound interrelationship among marriage, sex, and the celibate vocation.  Let’s press in.

The Kingdom, the Resurrection, & Marriage

In chapter 22 of the Gospel of Matthew (see also Mk 12 and Lk 20), the Sadducees, a group of Jews who didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, came to Jesus with a scenario that they thought would corner him into denying the resurrection as well.  A man had a wife and he died.  One of his brothers married her to give his deceased brother offspring, but he died too.  This happened again and again until seven brothers had all been married to the same woman in succession.  The Sadducees then asked Christ whose wife she will be in the resurrection.

Christ responded, “You are wrong because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God.  For in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage...” (v. 29-30).

For many this teaching of Christ strikes a sour note.  Why?  Because we know neither the scriptures nor the power of God.  If we did we would rejoice in these words.  Christ’s statement is not a devaluation of marriage; rather, it points to the ultimate purpose and meaning of this wonderful sacrament.

Marriage in this life is meant to foreshadow heaven where, for all eternity, we will celebrate the “marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7), the marriage of Christ and the Church.  This is the deepest desire of the human heart + to live in the eternal bliss of communion with God himself.  As wonderful as marriage and marital intimacy can be in this life, it’s only a sign, a foretaste, a sacrament of what’s to come.  Earthly marriage is simply preparation for heavenly marriage.

It’s the same with all the sacraments.  They prepare us for heaven.  There are no sacraments in heaven, not because they are simply done away with, but because they all will have come to fruition.  Men and women will no longer need signs to point them to heaven when they’re in heaven.  Think of it in terms of road signs.  If you’re headed to Denver, you no longer need a sign to point you to Denver once you’ve arrived.

Spouses sometimes wonder if this means they won’t be together in heaven.  Of course they will, if they both accept Christ’s marriage proposal and live in fidelity to him in this life.  In fact, every member of the human race who accepts the invitation to the heavenly wedding feast will be in the most intimate possible communion with everyone else.

This is what we call the “communion of saints.”  As the Catechism says, this “will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation. ...Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, ‘the holy city’ of God, ‘the Bride, the wife of the Lamb’” (CCC, n. 1045).

Using the spousal image as an analogy, we can say that God’s plan from all eternity is to “marry” us (see Hos 2:19).  And this eternal plan was foreshadowed and revealed “from the beginning” by our creation as male and female and our call to become “one flesh.”  The human body has a “nuptial meaning,” according to John Paul, because it proclaims and reveals God’s eternal plan of love + his plan for nuptial union between man and woman and, analogously speaking, between Christ and the Church.

As St. Paul says quoting from Genesis, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.  This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church” (Eph 5:31, 32).

Christ left his Father in heaven.  He left the home of his mother on earth + to give up his body for his Bride, so that we might become “one flesh” with him and be taken up into the life of the Trinity for all eternity.

As John Paul says, this means that “marriage and procreation in itself did not determine definitively the original and fundamental meaning of being a body or of being, as a body, male and female.  Marriage and procreation merely give a concrete reality to that meaning in the dimensions of history” (TB, Jan 13, 1982).  When the “dimensions of history” are fulfilled, so too will the “nuptial meaning of the body” be fulfilled not just in the union of one man and one woman, but in the communion of all men and women united by the vision of God face to face (see TB, Dec 9, 1981).

The Nuptial Meaning of Celibacy

Only by looking towards this heavenly reality can we properly understand the celibate vocation as Christ intends it.  Christ doesn’t call some of his followers to embrace celibacy for celibacy’s sake, but “for the sake of the kingdom.” The kingdom is precisely the heavenly marriage.  In short, those who choose celibacy are “skipping” the sacrament in anticipation of the real thing.

Celibate men and women step beyond the dimensions of history + while still living within the dimensions of history + and dramatically declare to the world that the kingdom of God is here (Mt 12:28).  Christian celibacy, then, is not a rejection of sexuality and marriage.  It’s a participation in the ultimate truth and meaning of sexuality and marriage.

Both vocations, in their own particular way, are a fulfillment of the call to “nuptial love” revealed through our bodies.  As John Paul II says: “On the basis of the same nuptial meaning of being as a body, male or female, there can be formed the love that commits man to marriage for the whole duration of his life, but there can be formed also the love that commits man to a life of continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven” (TB, Apr 28, 1982).

We can’t escape the call of our sexuality.  Every man is called to be both a husband and a father; every woman is called to be both a wife and a mother + either through marriage or through the celibate vocation.  In a certain sense, celibate men become an “icon” of Christ; their bride is the Church.  Celibate women become an “icon” of the Church; their bridegroom is Christ.  And both bear many spiritual children.

Thus, the terms bridegroom and bride, father and mother, brother and sister are applicable to marriage and celibacy.  Both vocations are indispensable in building the family of God.  Each vocation complements the other and demonstrates the other’s meaning.  Marriage reveals the nuptial character of celibacy, and celibacy reveals that the ultimate purpose of marriage is to prepare us for heaven.

Celibacy: the “Higher” Calling?

History has seen some grave distortions of St. Paul’s teaching that he who marries does “well,” but he who refrains does “better” (1Co 7:38).  It’s led some to view marriage as a “second class” vocation for those who can’t “handle” celibacy.  It’s also solidified people’s erroneous suspicions that sex is inherently tainted, and only those who abstain can be truly “holy.”

Such errors led John Paul II to assert firmly: “The ‘superiority’ of continence to matrimony in the authentic Tradition of the Church never means disparagement of marriage or belittlement of its essential value.  It does not mean any shift whatsoever in a Manichean direction” (TB, Apr 7, 1982).  (Manicheanism is an ancient heresy that views bodily things as evil, placing all emphasis on spiritual realities.)

Celibacy is “better” or “higher” than marriage in the sense that heaven is better or higher than earth.  Celibacy, unlike marriage, is not a sacrament of the heavenly marriage on earth.  Celibacy is  a sign of life beyond sacraments when we’ll be united with God directly through the “Marriage of the Lamb.”

In fact, I think it’s somewhat unfortunate that we define this vocation based on what it has “given up” rather than defining it in terms of what it has embraced.  It seems a lot of confusion could be avoided if we described the celibate vocation as the “heavenly marriage,” for instance.

Of course, few who choose the celibate vocation would claim to experience “heaven on earth” every day of their lives.  Celibates forego a great good, and that entails sacrifice.  That entails a fruitful suffering “for the sake of the kingdom.”

Here it becomes clear that the Church does not hold the celibate vocation in such high regard because she believes sex is somehow tainted.  She holds celibacy in such high regard precisely because she holds that which is sacrificed for the sake of God + genital sexual expression + in such high regard.

If sex were something unclean and unholy, offering it as a gift to God would be an act of sacrilege (we all know that there’s no merit in fasting from sin for Lent, right?).  But, since sex is one of the most precious treasures God has given humanity, making a gift of it back to God is one of the most genuine expressions of thanksgiving (eucharistia) for such a great gift.  The other is receiving it from God’s hands and living it as the expression of the marital covenant.

Everyone is called to a life of holiness by responding to the call to “nuptial love” stamped in his body.  But not everyone is called in the same way.  “Each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another” (1Co 7:7).

Each person should respond to the gift he’s been given.  If one is called to celibacy, then he shouldn’t choose marriage.  If one is called to marriage, then he shouldn’t choose celibacy.  Hence the important need to discern one’s vocation prayerfully.

Celibacy: Witness to Freedom

The celibate vocation also provides a much needed witness in our sex-saturated world to the reality of human freedom.  Christ’s own words, “some make themselves eunuchs,” demonstrate the voluntary character of this vocation.  It’s not something forced on people by the Church.  It’s a gift freely given by God and freely chosen by some of his followers.

Why do people spay or neuter their pets?  Because animals can’t say no to their urge to mate.  Despite what the typical prime-time sitcom would have us believe, we can.

Herein lies one of the key differences between animals and human beings + the gift and responsibility of freedom.  We’re not bound by instinct.  We can determine our own actions.  We can say “yes” to a given behavior or we can say “no.”  If we can’t say no, we’re not free.

Society has much to say about “sexual freedom.”  But sexual freedom, in the popular sense, means the license to have sex without ever having to say no.  This is not sexual freedom.  This is bondage to libido.

The man or woman who chooses to forego genital sexual expression “for the sake of the kingdom” demonstrates that he or she is not bound by an uncontrollable libido but is truly free + free to love God and love others in a dramatic and unreserved gift of self.  And it should be added that this is a bodily, and in this sense sexual, gift of self.

Angels can’t be celibates.  They don’t have bodies.  They’re not sexual beings.  In fact, according to John Paul II, the very impetus of the celibate vocation, like that of Christian marriage, is a desire to live out the truth of sexuality, redeemed and purified in Christ.

God gave us sexual desire “in the beginning,” according to John Paul, to be the very power to love in the image of God through the sincere gift of self.  This is why he calls the sexual urge “a vector of aspiration along which [our] whole existence develops and perfects itself from within” (Love & Responsibility p. 46).  According to Christian revelation, there are two ways of fulfilling this fundamental call to love: marriage or celibacy (see Familiaris Consortio n. 11).

Of course, due to sin, the sexual urge doesn’t simply well up in us as the desire to make the sincere gift of self.  Everyone + single, married, or consecrated celibate + must contend with the manifold disorders and confusions of lust.  But what hope we have when we realize, as John Paul stresses, that the heart is deeper than lust, and Christ “reactivate[s] that deeper heritage and give[s] it real power in man’s life” (TB, Oct 29, 1980).

This means through an ongoing conversion to Christ we can experience a “real and deep victory” over lust (TB, Oct 22, 1980).  If we open ourselves to the work of redemption, the Holy Spirit actually impregnates our sexual desire “with everything that is noble and beautiful,” with “the supreme value which is love” (TB, Oct 29, 1980).  Through this ongoing process of transformation we rediscover God’s original plan for sexual desire and are enabled to put that desire at the service of the marital or the celibate gift of self.

Again and again it must be stressed: The celibate vocation is not a rejection of sexuality.  Nor are consecrated celibates meant to condemn themselves to a life of isolation from the opposite sex.  If some approach it this way, according to John Paul II, they’re not living in accord with Christ’s words (see TB, Apr 28, 1982).

“Human life, by its nature, is ‘coeducative’” (TB, Oct 8, 1980).  By this the Holy Father means that the sexes need one another, and they need to learn to love one another rightly if human life is to maintain its proper dignity and balance.  This is just as true for consecrated celibates as it is for married people.

Men and women such as Francis and Clare of Assisi, John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, and Francis de Sales and Jane de Chantal all had healthy, holy, intimate, and celibate relationships with one another.  Yes, it’s truly possible.  And what a witness to freedom these saints are!

If we think this is impossible + if we immediately suspect “monkey business” going on in such relationships + then we can count ourselves among those whom John Paul II labels “the masters of suspicion.”  The masters of suspicion do not believe in the gift and power of redemption.  Since bondage to lust is all they know in their own hearts, they project that on to everyone else.

But as the Pope insists, “Man cannot stop at putting the heart in a state of continual and irreversible suspicion due to the manifestations of the lust of the flesh and libido....  Redemption is a truth, a reality, in the name of which man must feel called, and called with efficacy.”  In fact, he says, “The meaning of life is the antithesis of the interpretation ‘of suspicion’” (TB, Oct 29, 1980).

Celibacy is Supernatural

It is precisely these “masters of suspicion” who contend that celibacy is to blame for the various sexual problems of the clergy writ large in our newspapers.  “Celibacy is simply unnatural,” they say.

In some sense these people are right to say celibacy isn’t natural.  As the saying goes, and as Christ reveals, it’s supernatural.  It’s celibacy for the sake of the kingdom.  By calling some to renounce the natural call to marriage, Christ established an entirely new way of life, and, by doing so, he demonstrated the power of the Cross to transform lives.

For those who are “stuck” in a fallen view of the sexual urge with no concept of the freedom to which we’re called in Christ, the idea of life-long celibacy is complete nonsense.  But for those who have experienced the transformation of their sexual desires in Christ, the idea of making a complete gift of one’s sexuality to God not only becomes a possibility, it becomes very attractive.

Celibacy is a grace, a gift.  A minority of Christ’s followers are called to embrace this gift.  But, to those who are given this gift, they’re also given the grace to be faithful to their vows, just as married people are given the grace to be faithful to their vows.

In both vocations people can and do reject this grace and violate their vows.  Certainly there’s a need in the typical Catholic diocese for greater openness about sexual woundedness and for development and promotion of ministries that bring Christ’s healing to those in need, including priests.  But the solution to marital and celibate infidelity is not to concede to human weakness and redefine the nature of the commitments.  The solution is to point to the Cross as the font of grace that it is, a font from which we can drink freely and receive real power to live and love as we’re called.

Furthermore, the statistical rates of sexual misconduct among celibate priests is no higher than that of married clergy in other Christian denominations.  There is simply no evidence that having a married clergy would solve or even alleviate this problem.

There’s also a dangerously misguided approach to marriage inherent in the idea that marriage is the solution to the sexual scandal of some priests.  Marriage does not provide a “legitimate outlet” for disordered sexual desire.  Married people, no less than celibates, must come to experience the redemption of their sexual desires in Christ.  Only then can they love each other in God’s image.  If a man were to enter marriage with deep-seated sexual disorders, he would be condemning his wife to a life of sexual objectification.

Celibacy does not cause sexual disorder.  Sin does.  Simply getting married does not cure sexual disorder.  Christ does.  The only way the scandal of sexual sin (whether committed by priests or others) will end is if people experience the redemption of their sexuality in Christ.

In Conclusion

In a world that has lost sight of heaven, those who are “eunuchs for the kingdom” shine as a bright witness to us all of the ultimate destiny of human life.  They witness to what Saint Augustine said so well: “You have made us for yourself, oh God, and our hearts are restless until we rest in you.”

As we learn in John Paul II’s theology of the body, sexual desire and the nuptial meaning of the body are ultimately fulfilled in the eternal nuptials of heaven.  From this perspective it becomes clear that all of the sexual confusion in our world is simply the human desire for heaven gone berserk.

Only by “untwisting” this sexual confusion can we begin to understand God’s plan for nuptial union as a revelation and foreshadowing of the beatific vision.  Only then can we see that celibacy for the kingdom, far from devaluing sexuality, anticipates and participates in its ultimate fulfillment.
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 03:08 PM)
I'm glad you have it all figured out for you. For me, you can write 1 million or 10 million words and cite a whole bunch of references and call me names and judge me and condenm me, but it still doesn't change the fact that no living man can know the mind of God.
Not me, not you, and not the Pope.
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But aren't you saying that you know the mind of God? You know better than the Holy Gospels, the Fathers, the Popes, etc.? That's exactly what it sounds like.
And I'm sorry if you're hurt, but I'm not calling you names or judging you, it was the venerable Council of Trent that declared your view anathema. I'm just pointing out the facts.
be_thou_my_vision
Words are being put in my mouth. I said no such thing. Once again, consecrated life and married life are both very valuble, and if one life is superior than another in the eyes of God, then we can't know and won't ever know because no man will ever know the mind of God.
Since you've given me so much reading material, here's one for you. Go read up on what Job has to say about the matter.
be_thou_my_vision
One man's fact is another man's fancy.
be_thou_my_vision
I'm a little younger than you, I'm afraid I didn't have a seat at the Council of Trent.
Out of one side of your mouth, you apologize and then the other you call me a non-Catholic and and anti-Catholic.
You seem to be conflicted and your tone is angry. Perhaps you should see a spiritual advisor or other counselor.
Laudate_Dominum
QUOTE(be_thou_my_vision @ Dec 29 2005, 03:17 PM)
Words are being put in my mouth. I said no such thing. Once again, consecrated life and married life are both very valuble, and if one life is superior than another in the eyes of God, then we can't know and won't ever know because no man will ever know the mind of God.
Since you've given me so much reading material, here's one for you. Go read up on what Job has to say about the matter.
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Do you believe in the Incarnation? Do you believe in Divine Revelation?
The fact that we cannot know the mind of God in any absolute sense does not mean that we cannot know truths about God and His Will.
Truth isn't just what you or I "feel" it is. The teachings of the Church are clear and definitive on this matter, so I fail to see how your point has any validity.
Once again, the only way your point makes any sense is in light of the subjective value of an individual persons living out of their particular vocation. Certainly the judgment of a person's holiness is the prerogative of God alone, and as has already been said many times, the objective superiority of a particular vocation doesn't make persons who embrace that vocation necessarily holier.
And since when does Job have anything to say about the Christian dispensation? I'm not even sure what you're talking about or getting at with that.
I'm providing reading materials because I assume you're actually interested in grasping the Church's teachings on the matter, but perhaps this is a false assumption. If this conversation is just going to keep going in circles on this issue of objective vs. subjectivity "superiority" then I'm out.
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