My vocation prayer buddy mentioned having a little more talk about the sweet sacrament of marriage here at the vocation station. Let's do it! Thoughts? Reflections? Quotes from TOTB, or the married Saints? Post 'em here!

THANK YOU FOR INTRODUCING THIS TOPIC.
You are right it is needed. My thoughts. Huh, Well, Hmm ?

One of the "changes" I have seen within the Church is the "acceptance" of marriage as a VOCATION.

When I was a little girl the unsaid message was that the religious life was a vocation and the preferred way to go and the married state was like a "step child." My parents felt like "second class citizens' at times because they were married and had children. I have my own feelings because of this.

I don't remember ANY talk of growing up to get married. It was always, okay who is going to be a priest or a nun? And the ones who didn't raise their hands were made to feel inadequate. Remember now we are talking about the 60's and the 70's.

Time for a little honesty here. Many priests and nuns helped to perpetuate the "myth." And even today I am sorry to say I have met some that this is still their mind set. I have also met some young men and women even now who feel as though marriage is 'second class."
I have spoken to a few who feel as though if they do not enter religious life their lives will have been a waste.

What they need to look at is WHAT DOES GOD WANT, it is not a question of informing God what your plans are and then expecting Him to "fall in line." He doesn't work like that. We don't become saints by handing Him a job description of how to make us happy. To my mind it is utter INSANITY to think God is going to let you have your way.

If you are "desperate" to enter the religous life or to become married. You may achieve YOUR GOAL but trust me you aren't going to be happy and the people in your life will not be happy either. This is where "maturity" comes in. It is the ability to think of someone besides yourself.

Religious communities and future spouses don't want you if you are desperate. Desperate is not mature or "sacramental." I know my standards for a husband are VERY high and not changing any time soon.
Nope, not changing at all.

The reason I love this topic is because they will be able to learn what a beautiful and fulfilling (if you do it right) sacrament this is.

There seems to be some confusion that the religious life is without problems, a free ticket if you will to life's problems. There are many looking at Religious Lfie and not Married Life thinking they can hide. And vice versa. Marriage is a sacrament not a place to hide because you are afraid of "being lonely or not having someone, or dying alone."

I am old enough to where I have heard it all, from both sides.

This is where we get to "clear the air." It is nice to see that "marriage is making a comeback."

Yes! I was pondering marriage a while ago as a friend said we must pray for holy couples. I really think this is so important! When we have beautiful holy couples, trying to daily do Gods Will, and putting Him first in their lives, wouldn't it just naturally fall onto the children? I think its so beautiful! This holy chain reaction. In fact, each holy couple has the potential to become a catalyst for change! By their example, their children, neighbours, fellow parishioners, would all be impacted by the way they live. I know an amazing couple in their 20's. They are majorly involved in the front line of the pro life cause in NZ. I'm not saying instantly, that their children will carry on with their work, because I think that for the majority of us, we had to find our faith as our own. (I certainly did, despite being a cradle Catholic.) But still, by their example, we can see how God can truly move and work through marriage. Afterall, marriage is a sacrament!!! He gives people the grace to daily live out their vocation. I think its a very special vocation, just as much as religious life or the priesthood.

I do get the feeling that a lot of Catholics see the vocation to the priesthood (or nun... hood?) as more important than the vocation to married life. To be sure, a religious vocation is something very special, but it is certainly not more important -- it's not "better." People called to the married life should feel just as worthy and thrilled with their calling as priests and nuns. If you're called to the married life, be happy! Jump for joy! The Lord is calling you there for a reason, and it is because that is where your ultimate dreams are to be found.

im loving this thread. thanks buddy!

I am so HAPPY to hear that this is the growing majority's understanding of what it is to have a vocation. The "class division" b/w religious and married life is unnecessary. Praise be to God for our baptismal vocation- to be gospel witnesses in the world!

The more I continue to discern. The more I contine to adore Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, the more something tells me to discern marriage more. But a part of me just doesn't want to be married. I want to be a priest, that is where I think I'd be happiest. But that is what I want, and God must increase and I must decrease. And do what the Father's will is.

In HIM,

Eddie

Part of my discernment was looking at the beliefs I was raised with.
I had to sort thru my own "predjudice" of religious life versus married life.

In a sense I was "brainwashed" with one was better than the other.
I am still struggling with it.

I have to look at what does God want for me. I have come to the place where I realize that as much as I admire the religious life I would not succeed in it.

Honesty is .........

...is what bwings us togethah today....

a very good friend of mine once said to me something i think i already knew in my heart...


a woman who would make a good sister would make an equally good mother. they are interchangeable.

something like that. it was that idea.


i do believe my call is to married life. however, it is like i said before, my mind is open to all vocations for now.

It's true. If you wouldn't make a good wife and mother, you wouldn't make a good sister, because that is precisely what a sister is: Bride of Jesus and Mother of souls. By the same token, a good mother and wife would be a good sister

Sometimes we think Marriage and Consecrated Life are polar opposites.

I think that they are complementary.

SHALOM

probably because they are

I guess no one has seen The Princess Bride

You are right. We have more in common WAIT A MINUTE.
We don't have MORE in common with each other.
We have everything in common.
We love and serve and follow Jesus.

We have faithfully (I hope) answered His call.
Guys, I think we may just be on the same team here.
Just "different" positions.

LOL. That is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I typed the title of this thread. I wasn't sure anybody else would understand what I was talking about if I put that as the subtitle though! I'm glad you do!

oh yeah, Princess Bride now i remember

Possible questions regarding Marriage.

What do you want from it?
What do you have to "give" it?
Why "even" get Married?
Is Marriage your vocation" How do you know?
What qualities are you looking for in a spouse?
Where is a good place to meet people like yourself?
Do you have the right to "change" your spouse?

That's all for now. It's a good start.

there are just as many questions to pray about in discerning marriage as there are in discerning religious life. i embrace all questions... they only help me grow and to understand God's will for my life. i know that at one point i was very intimidated by these questions. i almost felt like they were there to keep me from being a sister or to keep me from being married... but they are there to challenge and define.

i heart discernment.

I saw this and I burst out laughing.

Anyway, I've looked on here for a while for a bit of vocational help for marrage, and the vocation station definately needed this. I firmly believe that I am called to the married life. My deacon taught us that the union between a husband and wife is a physical reminder of the union between Christ and his bride, the Church.

Ironically this was the most profound thing I remember about my Confirmation classes, but we won't go there.

I would love to hear more about living the vocation of marrage.

God bless-
LGLG

It's so awesome how all the vocations compliment one another.

I would be nothing if it was not for my marriage and children; no matter the success I would have anywhere else.

My wife and I was discussing a few days ago and we agreed that our only purpose in life is to raise our children in a manner pleasing to the Lord. Nothing else matters in our existence, as much as that, it is our 'job' given to us by God Himself.

My wife had three sesections, and due to complications had her uterus removed. We where very sad that we could only have three children betweeen the two of us, but just a few days ago we started talking about adoption! We'll see, we'll see.

And on another note, I personally believe that other sacraments are not 'better' nor more 'important', but I must admit I give them (sisters, borthers and fathers) a special respect becasue they are the 'experts' towards salvation.

Is a king truly more important than his people? Of course not, a true king should serve his people. Yet a true king will have special respects that commoners of his kingdom do not receive, and rightly so. That is a bit how i see the other sacraments, they contain a certain respect that is not necessarily given to married people and I think this is appropriate.

I disagree. They aren't "experts" any more than you or I.
They are people who have chosen a particular way to follow Jesus.
But that doesn't make them "experts."

While I believe that Priests do have an "UP" being that the are priests, still they are human. So how does the "expert" status apply?

This is the belief that I was raised with. And it isn't true. Religious can and have gone to hell "as easily" as lay people. I don't automatically give respect because of someone's lifestyle. Respect has to be earned.

There is a Sister I know of who has the hair and the nails done monthly. Wears earings and three gold chains. The watch is solid gold. And the apartment is CRAMMED with knick-knacks. Oh yes, and makeup. Why?
Jesus knows what she looks like. Who is she dressing for?

Nope, I don't think so. Not when I have met Married couples who REEK (sorry that is the best word to get my point across) Jesus. One of the couples I have in mind were my Grandparents.

ps. My watch came from WalMart and cost $21.00 and I don't wear makeup.

I think that this is evidence of a misunderstanding of what should actually be being discussed here.

The religious vocation is a higher vocation than either the married or the single vocation, precisely because the latter are perfect expressions of the natural order (that is, how God made us in creation) while religious life is an expression of the supernatural order (that is, how we will be in the New Creation).

The fact that Holy Orders confers upon its recipient the highest possible vocation does not mean that the person in question is going to be a better person, it simply means that this person has a more supernatural calling by God.

Objectively, the religious vocation is "better" - this does not mean that all of the religious people are "better." Nor does it mean that everyone should become a religious - they shouldn't - it is a privelaged calling, not a right.

What people need to understand is that acknowledging the religious life as objectively a higher calling does not need to lessen the respect and importance given to the other vocations: every vocation is a personal calling from God, and so is something that demands to be lived out by each and every one of us. Moreover, because we are talking about a demand of love, rather than a demand of obligation, no vocation will "lord over" the others, even if it is objectively greater.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

There are some very troubling attitudes I've found among Catholics about marriage - some due to creeping Calvinistic influences, some due to suburban snotty cliquishness, some due to the lesbo-feminazi heresy that was born in the advent of the "contraception culture" of the 1960s and 1970s. I will debunk several of them here from scripture, official church teaching, and from personal stories I've been told.

1) First, I AM A CATHOLIC, NOT A CALVINIST. I don't believe in a micromanaging God; He gave me free will. See Sirach 15:11-20. Therefore, I'm getting a little tired of being second-guessed for wanting to get married or being told that I need to wait for a girl that God specially prepared for me. What official evidence does anyone have that God chooses who our spouses are or if we will even get married (I'm not talking about knowing who we will eventually marry or if we will get married). Such manipulation is dangerous in two senses:

a) Using religion to micromanage and manipulate, or to think you have some private line to God as far as to what He wants for everyone's lives, is a hallmark of religious cults, not the true Church;
b) Constantly second-guessing can lead to a loss of confidence and inability to make a decision and paranoia and who knows what other mental problems. I don't know if that's acceptable for females, but for MALES that can be deadly.

Besides, as someone once posted here, as long as a person is not sinning or going against Church policy, WHO IS ANYONE TO QUESTON WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE FOLLOWING GOD'S WILL????

Also, CCC 2230: "When they become adults, children have the right and duty to choose their profession and state of life. They should assume their new responsibilites within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their chidlren either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse". Get it? Our state of life and who we marry is LEFT TO OUR CHOICE. This comes straight from the Cathechism! If anyone has a problem with that, it is the Church they have a problem with, not me.

2) YOU NEED TO BE CALLED TO MARRIAGE??? If we start to adopt a policy that only certain people are called to be married, that leads to elitism. One of my friends calls it "marriage Jansenism". Besides, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 1603 states that "The vocation of marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator". Marriage is part of human nature, and people who try to restrict it are messing with human nature. If you disagree with this, you are not disagree with me but with the Church, whether out of lack of knowledge or outright heresy.

3) THE WHOLE "THAT IS NOT A VALID REASON TO GET MARRIED" CONROVERSY (see previous posts in this thread). Excuse me, but who appointed anyone the official arbitrer of what is not a good reason to get married? It was said that "loneliness" or "fear of dying alone" is not a reason to get married. BALONEY!!!!!! IT MOST CERTAINLY IS!!!!! Here are the reasons:

a) I wonder how many people who say such hurtful things themselves have families and are in no danger of dying alone? They should put themselves in the other person's shoes and learn what life is like on the other side of the tracks, otherwise they are being hypocritical. Besides, who are they to impose the burden of loneliness and dying alone on another person who is eligible to marry in the Church? Laying heavy burdens on people and not lifting a finger to carry them is a characteristic not of a Christian, but of a pharisee (Mt. 23:3-4). Remember what Christ said about pharisees? Read the rest of Matthew 23. He called them "frauds" (v. 15), "blind guides" (v.24), "whitewashed tombs" (v. 27), "vipers nests" and "brood of serpents" (v. 33).

b) I remember a seminarian stating that the hard part about celibacy is not the physical part, but projecting yourself into your 40s and 50s and seeing other people in your age group with children and grandchildren. So if loneliness and lack of family is something to consider when discerning a vocation to a religious state of life (and whether or not to be a non-religious single, since both have to practice celibacy) , then why would anyone deny it as a factor in wantng to get married???? Such illogic astounds me!!!!!!! Yes, Paul said that the unmarried can serve the Lord better (1 Cor. 7:32-35), but he also said that it is better to be married than to be on fire if one cannot exercise self-control (1 Cor. 7:8-9). Did not Christ Himself say that "not everyone is given to do so" regarding accepting the teaching of being better not to marry (Matthew 19:10-11)? Did he not refer to people who FREELY embrace celibacy (I'm paraphrasing here due differing translations of Matthew 19:12)? So if Christ and Paul acknowledge that not everyone can handle celibacy, then why can't people today realize that? It boggles my mind!!!

Now, I'm not saying that loneliness can lead to hasty decisions, but it is quite another thing to fault a person for taking steps to prep themselves for marriage because they don't want to be alone for the rest of their lives.

4) YOU'RE DESPERATE. While I agree that it can lead to hasty decisions, I need to ask the following:

a) What is the Christian response to someone in a desperate situation? Is it avoidance? Mocking? Or is it to meet their needs? See Acts 6:1-6.
b) Just as we cannot complain that a child's stomach is grumbling from hunger if we haven't fed him/her, I really wonder how much desperaton in other people is caused by us by our ignoring and rejecting them and whether it is really valid to complain about it????

Additionally, one reason it might be considered a "higher" calling is that it makes more demands of people, and not everyone can handle those demands.

Jeff,
Well spoken. A priest may be himself a very great sinner, but we must never forget that his soul is indelibly marked by the reception of Holy Orders, and that he is acting in persona Christi. St. John Vianney used to say that if he were to meet an angel and a priest, he would bow before the priest first. Likewise, a religious brother or sister has been chosen (despite their failings and sins) to begin their "heaven on earth." We see in them the union with Christ that will be Eternity for us...the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. These two vocations are, in that sense, "higher" because they give such a tremendous demonstration of God's Mercy..His power made perfect in weakness.
All that being said, the most "perfect" vocation and the surest path to holiness is whatever God is calling you to! If He calls you to marriage, then that is beautiful! He is asking you to form a reflection of the Trinity physically and spiritually. What a gift and Mystery!

I still disagree but thanks for sharing.

Hmmm ... this discussion is really good ... people need to know, the best vocation for them, is the one God calls them to. That said, about which state in life is more perfect ... I think the Church has already spoken on the matter ... this is from the IRL's Vocation FAQ page:

Q. Is consecrated life a higher calling than marriage?
A. The Church teaches as dogma the objective superiority of consecrated virginity (or celibacy) over marriage. This dogma has its scriptural basis in Our Lord’s words, “And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life” (Mt. 19:29).

Q. Does this mean that I will automatically become a holier person in consecrated life?
A. No. The dogma mentioned above does not mean that those who are called to celibacy are in fact “superior” or holier than other people. Rather, one’s holiness is ultimately measured by one’s charity, not one’s state in life. (Pope John Paul II, Theology of the Body, 276–77.

Q. What has the Holy Father written about perfect chastity?
A. In his apostolic letter on consecrated life, Vita Consecrata, Pope John Paul II refers to the “objective superiority” of the consecrated life, which “mirrors Christ’s own way of life” when it comes forth to showing forth the Church’s holiness.

well this thread kinda took an unexpected turn (at least for me)....


marriage is so awesome. right now im falling in love even more deeply with Christ and i think it would be absolutely amazing to share that with someone else and to raise saints. how great!

Marriage is a very saintly vocation indeed!

It's very special and VERY unique!

I've got to make mention of some of the awesomest married people ever: Louis Martin, and his wife, Azelie-Marie Guerin. These two gave all their children, five daughters, to the Church in religious life. And they gave us a doctor of the Church, St. Therese!

I understand that both Louis and Azelie-Marie are "Venerable Servants of God," and their causes for beatification are on-going.

Holy marriages are powerful!!!

They should be patron saints of Holy Matrimony

oh yes...

Well there are patron saints for:
brides
bridegrooms
new mothers
pregnant women
newly married couples....


Is that what you mean? Look up St Gerard Majella, St Elizabeth of Hungary, St Gianna and those sorts of ones. There are plenty out there!!!! Don't worry

It is their field of expertise, it is what they studied. They spend more time praying and studying salvation and the likes and actually living it than the average lay person.

If somone is a plumber, does it mean they know more about plumbing than me? Of course not... if he's a bad plumber I might know more... but when my toilet backs up, I'll call a plumber if I don't know what to do. Why would that be?

A doctor is human, so how does the term 'expert' apply to him?







I never said they don't go to hell now did I?

If you graduate high school... you've earned a bit of respect wouldn't you say? If you get ordained a priest, you've also earned a bit of respect wouldn't agree? waht would that respect be?







Don't throw away the basket just for one rotten apple. Come-on... *whispers* you almost sound prejudice against religious people.








My watch was a gift, and it broke a few weeks ago and I can't afford to fix it or buy another one.

I don't wear any make-up either.

A friend of mine read a document to me written in 1968 about how priests and bishops need to encourage holy couples and the vocation and sanctity of marriage. I don't think I can really ever recall a priest or bishop doing that other than at a wedding which is kindof after the fact.

haha seriously. i wish more of our youth would be encouraged to be saints and to raise saints if their vocation is marriage. i was lucky to have a really great youth minister to start out with but i know not everyone was or is as lucky.

I find this amusing. I am a "religious person."
I think Jesus put it best when he referred to some people as
"white washed tombs." I was not raised to turn a blind eye towards a certain segment of society because they have chosen a particular lifestyle.

I have noticed something interesting not only on this site but others as well. That would be the PREVALENCE we seem to have towards one another to speak as though we know each other.

The above comment would have been better handled thru a PM.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean for this to turn into a debate! Somebody already gave us what the Church teaches...let's leave it at that, and continue our discussion of "sweet mawiage!"


"O Mary, into your maternal hands I place myself and I abandon myself completely, sure of obtaining whatever I ask of you. I trust in you because you are the sweet Mother, I confide in you because you are the Mother of Jesus. In this trust I place myself, sure of being heard in everything; with this trust in my heart I greet you, " my Mother, my trust", I devote myself entirely to you; keep me and defend me, O sweet Mary, and in every instant of my life, present me to your Son, jesus." St. Gianna

I am not debating. I am responding to what I feel was an unnecessary personal comment. I am not going to be "attacked" for my beliefs and not defend myself.
Again, part of the problem here is "familiarity."
I am not comfortable with it, I was not raised that way.

If something "personal" needs to be said a PM should be used.
THANK YOU.

marriage is a beautiful thing. like daugherofmary (heh - no t) said... someone has provided what the church teaches and further debate (or "defense of personal beliefs") should be moved elsewhere. this thread should be respectful of all and honor marriage for what it is - a very noble and beautiful thing.

side note: my prayer buddy is way too cool for words.

vocation buddy...this is completely off topic, but did you get my "turkey email"? hehe.

ok, resume conversation!

yeah i did! i forgot to reply (oops sorry!!) thanks so much! that was so much fun! hehe.

okay end hijack.....



marriage is happy.

Who knew before they got married that marriage was so much work?

One thing I've found about marriage that I did not expect is that I realized that unless my wife dies first, I can never administer the Sacraments.

Right, that "document" was Humanae Vitae sections 28 & 30 about leading families and couples in spiritual direction, encouraging prayer, "For it is your principal duty—We are speaking especially to you who teach moral theology—to spell out clearly and completely the Church's teaching on marriage."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/...e-vitae_en.html

I agree with you.

Btw, your youth minister is really awesome!

yes she really is! i wasnt lucky enough to keep her around as youth minister... in fact we've just lost our second but i have been lucky enough so far (though i can guarantee i shouldnt be) to keep her as a friend she's been one of the best influences of my life.

she really helped me develop a passion for sainthood for myself and for my children (should i have them).

go here for some excellent info on this topic. a BUNCH of interesting stuff to learn:

The Christian Family and Holy Matrimony
http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/48

peace in Christ,
phatcatholic