Hey who here is a member of ECYD or Regnum Christi? Has anyone here ever been a precandidate? I was just at the 2005 Summer Program this year! It was amazing! Post your thoughts

~*sarah*~

Thy Kingdom Come!
i am a member of Regnum Christi. I got incorporated this year in Germany at World Youth Day. I was there for three weeks. hey vivacristorey did you meet a consecrated named cesy she was from where i live but i never really got to meet her i just got to talk to her on the phone. Where are you from. We probably know someone in between us.
God Bless,
Sara

Hi,
I am also a member of Regnum Christi. I was a coworker last year in Chicago, and I incorporated shortly before becoming a coworker. Being in Regnum Christi has helped my spiritual life SO MUCH!

Claire

My daughter, Ora et Labora, went to the summer program in 2004 and really enjoyed it. I know cesy. Love the accent!

CECY!!! of course I know her!!! oh she's so amazing...!!
Oh the summer program was great... it was one of the best months of my life my ecyd teamleader is going to be a coworker this year.

~*sarah*~

I'm in the Atlanta section

Really your in the Atlanta Section do you know a Bri Dubos or I met her in Germany over the summer for three weeks for WYD. Or maybe anyone else maybe that went that I might know.

OMG, you all know Cecy!! AHHHHHHHHHH! she was spiritual guide at the PC!!!!!!!!
tell her Amelia says hi!!!!
I am ECYD soon to be RC and thanking God it has lead me so far in the faith!!

Hi ecyders...I used to be in ecyd and was a precandidate and a coworker. Unfortunately, I wouldn't highly recommend it. There are many attractive things about it, and even good things, but there are a few things you should know, especially if you plan to go Rhode Island.

PLEASE DONT STOP READING!!!!
I PROMISE this is NOT ALL NEGATIVE...I WAS A PC FOR 3 YEARS - and had some good experiences there.

20 Things I WISH I HAD KNOWN

1. The summer program is awsome and fun and amazing.
PC life is a bit of a different story. You must wear a long skirt (even for sports and hikes and at the beach ), no sleeveless tops, a robe on top of PJs in the dorm (unless you are in bed) and nylons and dressy shoes - not socks or tennis shoes.

2. The educational quality is not very high. There are no Honors Classes, no AP classes, and the GPA system is so harsh that it can harm your chances of getting into a good college - If it hasn't changed, a 99% (A) counts as a 3.9 GPA, and a 90% (A-) is a 3.0 whereas, at a regular high school a A- is a 3.5.

As a senior in high school, most of the PCs do not even make college applications because they are thinking of becoming consecrated, but then if they don't become consecrated, they lose a year before they can go to college. One girl was even sent away because she started filling out college applications and that was seen as not being "open" to a vocation because she had a "plan B", so they sent her away in the middle of her senior year, and she nearly did not graduate.

Most students do not take SAT IIs or AP exams that would be very helpful for getting into and going to college.


3. You are in "silence" for the entire day except for part of lunch, and other times specifically set aside for talking. When you do get to talk there is always a consecrated member there. Not that that is bad, but it's hard to really express yourself to your friends as a teenager with a "counselor" even a nice and good one standing right there.

9th and 10th graders can't speak to 11th and 12th graders because they are in different "sections" They do not play together or anything.

4. You get to listen to music only on outings, in the car and on special feast days during "chores" Being a music lover, that was very hard on me and others. You are not allowed to have a cd/walkman, and "secular" music is never heard. Only Enya and these recordings of regnum christi women or legionaries singing mostly spanish, but some english songs in a choir.

5. You are allowed to have no "particular friendships" meaning you can't have any friend or girl you share your thoughts with more than any other. If you do, you will be asked to not speak to her at all for a while until you can be equally friends with everyone.

6. Your letters and all mail that you send or receive is read by your counselor(consecrated) including letters to your family or friends. You are also not allowed any contact with friends of yours who are guys ((or girls if you're a guy and go the Legionary PreCandidacy/Apostolic School)

You sometimes have letter writing time and you are encouraged to ask your acquaintences, family and friends for donations or at least to get them to come to retreats and such in RI. My sister was a PC also and she did this, and it made an aunt of mine very upset. Letters about hey what's up, or just friendly stuff are considered a waste of time.

7. You have very strict rules of ettiquette - eating apples, oranges, hamburger and donuts with a knife and fork. Getting into your chair from the left and exiting from the right. Using only 4 or 5 squares of toilet paper to...and many more...

8. You can receive a call from home once per week for one hour only. If you have a large family, that is about 5-10 minutes per person.

9. You have no (or very restricted) email or internet access. No cell phone either.

10. You must ask your director permission to read any book, literature or spiritual.

11. The food is not particularly healthy (like any other boarding school) and most girls gained weight when they went because of the food and the reduced exercise.

12. You get about 45min-1hour of sports about 3-4 times per week (some days you have kitchen clean up after lunch). All sports are team sports only, no running by yourself for exercise, no competitive sports against other schools,( NO SOCCER! at all because it's not for girls) For a sporty person like myself this is very little exercise and I even gained about 15 pounds which I lost when I graduated and began doing college sports and eating my own healthy food.

13. You have set aside times for studying per class. For some people this is nice, but others, who would prefer to do all their homework at once and according to how long they need to study for that class this can be a pain. IE You have a 45 minute period to study history, you finish your homework, now you're supposed to keep studying history even though you're done....

14. If you break one of the many small rules that govern pc life, you are supposed to ask your counselor/guide for a penance - some act of reparation which can range from extra prayers to giving up sports and doing an extra kitchen duty.

15. Although spiritual direction is supposed to be 100% confidential it's not. Sometimes, it happened that another pc would know something I said in spiritual guidance because the consecrated had mentioned it to her as an example, or something. Also every month they make a report about all the pcs and send it to the higher up Regnum Christi/Legionaries.

16. The consecrated can go through your closet and your stuff to see how organized or messy you are - you have no privacy at all.

17. The consecrated are very nice people and really are trying to help you, but I don't think it is always a "help." And everything they tell you is "God's will". I don't know if God really cares so much if I wear my hair in a ponytail or down, but they told me He wanted my hair "down" because ponytails are too casual.

18. You have what is called "free time" but you need this time to iron your clothes, clean up your closet, write a letter, etc. and cannot use it to hang out with other pcs or listen to music.

19. Every minute of every day is scheduled. You have only 3 days at home at Christmas - not Christmas Day!!!! You go home the 26th, are at home 27th, 28th, 29th and fly back the 30th. This is a very expensive 72 hour trip.

20. By the end, you might lose some of your sense of identity and it's not on purpose maybe but you're only 14-17 so you begin to put your whole identity into the Regnum Christi and then as is often the case, even people who become consecrated leave after a while. From my pc class and the grade ahead of me and behind me...All TOGETHER only 2 girls who became consecrated are still consecrated. Some of my old friends even stopped being catholic after they left because they got so confused of what was catholic and what was just Regnum Christi. God doesnt care if I eat an apple with a knife and fork - many good catholics use their hands, but so much of those small things get mixed in that it becomes hard to separate God's ideas and Catholic from these strange little quirky things about Regnum Christi.

Lastly, though this is yet unproven, Pope Benedict does have a case open currently investigating abuse by the founder of Regnum Christi. I think your parents should be fully informed and research other people's experiences in Legionary schools, Regnum Christi and ECYD before they encourage or allow you to participate. I loved the summer camps and was a counselor even after leaving the pc, and I'd be a counselor again, I just don't try to force everyone into ECYD, just get them to talk to God more...not have to obey these made up rules...and have no friends because "everyone is your friend." Girls, you know! (and guys too) there is no substitute for a real live best girl friend (or guy friend)

Seriously people, WHAT WOULD JESUS DO??? Didn't he say take your light out and shine it, not put it in a bushel basket??? I think being really catholic or Christian in a regular school is a much bigger deal than hiding your faith in some school where everyone agrees with you.

Love you all!!! PEACE!

excuse me, but as an ecyd member i have to reply and defend my movement... my family. you just accused me personally of many things being a member of the movement. you also accused my spiritual family, Regnum Christi in the Catholic Church, of many things. I'm sorry, but I cannot accept any of that. I have a duty, right, and want to defend Nuestro Padre, the Pope's decisions, the Church, and Regnum Christi.
Here is, firstly, my response to your suggestion of the abuse scandal. its a lie. period. here are my views on the people who believe these claims:

ok, if you're ROMAN CATHOLIC (which they claim to be) you listen to the pope and believe what he says REGARDLESS of personal opinion or personal questions. you may not agree on a human level with something, but you know that it must be a misunderstanding on your part if the Vatican approves it and you must just be missing a peice of info. you let it go and admit you dont know everything (ex. the fight some "catholics" are posing to have women priests... they may not understand it, but if they're really CATHOLIC they need to accept that its NEVER gonna happen because THATS WHAT THE POPE SAYS AND THE POPE IS INFALLABLE) so back to the Legion and Regnum Christi. So every Pope existant while the Legionaries are existant have not only approved them and all their apostolates (Regnum Christi, ECYD, Challenge, Conquest, Compass, etc) but they've ENCOURAGED LOVED AND PROMOTED them too. Pope John Paul II wrote LETTERS specifically to our movement. Pope Benedict XVI receives ECYD boys every year to talk to them! Every time Pope John Paul II heard "John Paul II, we love you!" being chanted he would say "Regnum Christi!" and smile and clap his hands and say "John Paul II loves you too!" because he knew we were there and he loves us! my gosh, ppl who believe all this bad stuff about the Legionaries and Regnum Christi can't be real Catholics because they dont trust their own Pope who Christ has put for them to follow. If they dont follow the pope, they arent' following Christ. If you dont follow Christ, you're most definitely not Catholic. Case closed. I win. Pope John Paul II had regular meetings with Nuestro Padre, they were great friends! Pope John Paul II I think loved Regnum Christi and the Legion more than we did... and that's a WHOLE LOT.

I dont even halfway get (jennys' phrase, by the way) how they can come up with all this. once nuestro padre was going to mass in st. peters square and he saw one of the men who is lying about him to the media. the legionary who was with nuestro padre asked if he wanted to leave. nuestro padre smiled and said, "no." then he went up to the man, gave him a hug, and said to him holding his shoulders, "Thank you, my friend, for teaching me humility of heart and for giving me an oppertunity to suffer for Christ."

And they tell me those are the words of a criminal. its laughable. it really is.

after all that he's done he's still persecuted, and do you know why? because the devil's finally smartened up and knows what a threat this Movement is to his plans. He cant afford millions of souls to be saved through this movement! it would mean too many people get to heaven and are happy! so what does he do? he lies to people and makes them gossip and lie themselves. he doesnt let them see that it's him because then they will get scared. he's manipulating all these people right in front of their faces but they're blind. They've formally rejected their guide, the Pope. I feel really bad for them. They've got to be miserable.

I know this whole post is pretty harsh, but it's completely true. The pcs make great sacrifices for love of Christ and the vocation he's called them to. The pc vocation is beautiful and there's nothing wrong with figuring out that it isnt your call, but I greatly regret that people publicly put down the Legionaries of Christ and Regnum Christi just because they found it was not their vocation to be a member. That's completely fine.

Every pope during the Legion's existance has publicly denied the claims of the abuse scandal lie. Pope John Paul II even went far enough to say that it WILL NOT be brought up again. After these lying men brought it up a number of times the Pope said STOP. I said it's a lie. I refuse to listen to this.

AGAIN precandidates and consecrated make sacrifices and live a strict schedule, but its all out of love for Christ. They NEVER opperate outside of the Church. They 100% obey the Vatican and all of Christs teachings. But Christ never said, "follow me. the path is easy." no, he said "Take up your cross and follow me." These restrictions on the lives of the pcs help them to live completely detatched from possessions. It gives them such an ardant love for the supernatural so that they can give their whole lives to God in whatever way he wants them: married, single, or religious. To have these limits is to say to God: "You are in control of my life. I give every aspect of it to you. From the details about my hairstyle or how I dress to my life's occupation. It is in your hands."

God has reasons for the little things such as hairstyle that we as humans know of very little. We cannot claim to know everything and say that God doesnt care about it. He cares about everything about us. If your assistant tells you not to wear your hair up, it is because she wants to a) form your obedience b) God tells her that for some reason, you will be able to fulfill your mission better with your hair down. Maybe someone will see you that day and they come and talk to you. If your hair was down maybe they wouldnt notice you. But because your hair is down, they notice you (for some reason of God's) and come talk to you and turn back to him. We can never know, so it is best that we live in obedience.

It is not everyone's vocation to go to the precandidacy, this is very true. But, it is NO ONE'S vocation to say ANYTHING negative about something the Pope has approved and supported. We should accept it and admit that because we dont know everything and the Church is infallable, we must be wrong in our accusations.

Thank you for listening
~*Sarah*~

OMG!!!! BRI DUBOS!!! OF COURSE I KNOW HER!!!

her sister is one of my best friends! i was just on retreat with bri last weekend! she's my ecyd group leader! omg omg omg omg omg!!!

yeah i went to the summer program w/ her sister while ya'll were in germany! i stayed at their house w/ bri and watched movies till the cows came home the night before!!!! omg omg omg omg!!! thats sooooo cool! i'll have to tell her i met you! whats your name?

~*sarah*~

My name is Sara Yongueor Free Willy whatever. And tell her one of the ones from Louisiana that she traveled with. Tell her I said hi and i miss her so much. I miss all my 60 sistesrs. Tell her to keep in touch please.
God Bless
Sara

By the way that is Sara Yongue

1 The Pope is only infallible when he is making statements in ex cathedra many popes (like the good John XXIII,) said that they would never be infallible. Infalliblity is a tricky concept at times. You and I can be infallible when saying things like "Mary is the Immaculate Conception." or "Jesus is the Son of God." But anyway, just wanted to clear that up. Hardly anything the pope says is definitely and completely infallible. You can look into the issue more if you like.

2 You are perfectly right in that a vocation to the precandidacy is not for every one. You also "hit the nail on the head" when you said that part of that particular vocation is to surrender up all control of everything you do. (my paraphrase.) So, choosing how you dress, when and what you eat, and so on, no longer becomes an option. One closes the door on making such decisions, when they choose to enter into the environment. I'm discerning with Poor Clares at the moment, and I imagine, should I end up there, that I will lose control over such things. My Poor Clares eat the same food, at prescribed times each day. As Mother Abbess says, it is not a case of "take it or leave it," it is a plain "take it."

What I'm trying to say, is that when one chooses to act upon what she believes to be Gods will, there must be sacrifices involved, even if other people do not understand them.

About Regnum Christi, I have nothing against the movement. I like their saying believe all the good things you hear, and only believe the bad things that you see with your own eyes. With all human things, there will be good and not-so-good elements.

OK, thats enough for me. God bless.

Dear Vivacristorey!
Peace dude!!!! Did you even read my story? I was not angry or accusing...just stating facts. I did not accuse you personally or the RC or ecyd of anything.
(The only thing close to an accusation was my reference to the FACT that the current Pope, Benedict has reopened the investigation and I follow what the Church says doctrinally, but I dont recall the Dogma of Regnum Christi and the Legion being perfect.)

I was also hurt by your accusing me of not really being a catholic. That hurts! Would Jesus start insulting people he disagrees with? Probably not. I hope you can see that RC is not the only way to be catholic. That´s the beauty - catholic is universal, languages, customs, styles etc.

"it is NO ONE'S vocation to say ANYTHING negative about something the Pope has approved and supported."
Actually, the Pope JPII apologized for mistakes of other Popes, and the bishops often ask the faithful for information and advice to make sure that things that seem good really are. You mistake "being negative" as somehow evil, even if it´s true. What if no one had ever mentioned that a some seemingly good people have problems or do bad things? Who would know? Who would help them get better?

Secondly I simply wrote a list of 20 things that no one will dispute that occur if you join the PC. These are true things that I lived and continue to go on - ask anyone, even people who are there right now! The thing is that you dont find out before so when you decide to go you think you´re going to high school but you are really living the near cloistered life of a nun and practicing the "vows" of poverty, chastity and obedience (not the virtues which are good, but way stricter) before you even have the legal status of an adult or the maturity to truly choose a path in life. (BTW the argument that Mary was 15 doesnt count because of social and cultural differences and life expectancy was about forty, thus 15 of a 40 year life is like 30 years old nowadays because we live to about 80)

Thirdly, the call of Christ to obedience and the giving up of one´s own decision making power is true, when one is following a vocation. However, since people cant get married or vote or join the army or even drink alcohol till they are 18 (or 21), I wanted simply to point out that a very young, impressionable teenager should perhaps not be expected to live a "consecrated" life or the life of a nun. Do the Sisters of Charity for example accept 14 year olds as "prospects" and have them wear saris, sleep on mats, eat "poor" food, and live without hot water for 4 years and then accept them as nuns? I dont think so.

Lastly, if you choose to go, I´m not stopping you. It should be a fully informed decision made between you and your parents, not alone. YOU are a MINOR and God doesn´t expect us to make a life choice before we are mature enough to do so freely, and lovingly.

Even though you got very angry at me, I still love you. and would suggest you calmly (maybe try some chamomile tea) reread my 20 things. They are true, and many friends of mine who were consecrated realized later it wasnt for them, and that they had been simply too young to really make a conscious mature decision about it. No one gets married in high school, and most girls now get married at about 25 or 27 depending on whether they complete college and perhaps a graduate degree. So high school is a time to enjoy and grow up. When I left the PC, I was not nearly as socially mature as my fellow college students and it took a while to adjust, and making friends was hard because I had not been allowed to have "personal" friends so it took a while to build that ability back up.

Peace out everybody!!

PS."I'm discerning with Poor Clares at the moment"
Hey memtherose, you are over 18, right? Pcs are 13-18. If you´re not 18, do they make you live all those things now???

Hello, Vivacristorey.
You have accused or a sister of not being Christian,single by the fact to criticize one organization that you adore.
More when she is right, it is not possible to be taken to minor people and to be put norms to them as if they were religious, the same church not this in agreement with it.
You do not say that to be approved by the Pope the RC is perfect. Except the church, all the congregations have been founded by men and
women and we can be mistaken perfectly. Even the Pope when doing a declaration.
"Actually, the Pope JPII apologized for mistakes of other Popes",
This phrase of your sister is certain.
The organizations are many who count on letters of Pope and they are not created anything special for that reason. I myself I have been received twice in Rome, that does not mean that it is better than others.
By I complete, to criticize the RC ¡¡¡this not attacking itself the church!!!,
the RC is only a part of it.
That to that flames "Nuestro Padre" in Spanish, Jesus said clearly single to you will call father to him, Jesus spoke of God, no of Marcial Maciel.

For the sake of charity, I ask that we please discontinue this forum. It appears to me that it is doing nothing more than cause division in this beautiful Church that Christ has built for us.

Count on my prayers for the unity of all Christians. God bless you all.

I had already read every one of your "20 things"

I pray for you all that one day you will understand the spirituality of our movement. Many don't understand it and they cant love or accept what they dont understand.
We call Nuestro Padre "Nuestro Padre" because that's what he is, he's our father in the Movement within the Church under the guidence of Christ. I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh, but what you dont understand is that our ecclesiastical movement is perhaps the most persecuted within the church of all the other ecclesiastical movements. No one questions the franciscans or the jesuits because they've been around so long, but our movement is a baby movement making a big difference in the world which raises some people's eyebrows. It's very hard being a member of this movement with so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ trying to accuse us of false things, such as the abuse charges. These claims are laughable, as I said earlier. Remember that Christ was persecuted and accused as well.
your words about my founder, my mini-father, have hurt me very deeply. I'm very sensetive to this because he has done so much good for me. Without the movement i doubt I would care about the Church at all. I dont think I would care about Mass or about Pope Benedict or anything. I doubt I would be here talking to you. It has changed my life and especially my life in Christ.
The former pcs should know that Nuestro Padre would NEVER do anything to hurt Christ. Christ is his best friend, his only consolation. I dont understand still how anyone can openly say the Pope doesnt know what he's saying when we have such an amazing pope. I trust him. You can go to the Vatican and ask him about our movement and he will tell you exactly what I've said.
You all hurt me very much by even bringing up that those accusations could be true. Please take the time to research these things in reliable rces before posting them on the internet. I guess this is just one too many times someone has brought up these things. I face them every day I walk outside my door, I face them when I meet other Catholics, I face them talking to people after Mass, and I've just about had it with people telling me my family, Regnum Christi, is evil.
I'm only fourteen but I know what I'm saying is true. Please dont accuse us of anything else. We're all fighting for the same goal.
I'm sorry if you werent socially mature for college, but I can hardly believe that's the Movement's fault. Too many pcs and consecrated have gone into the world fulfilled to believe that.
These attacks from other Catholics have brought me to tears. I love the Catholic Church with all my heart. My parents completely support my vocation, whatever it is. We cannot stop supporting minor seminaries and such because Christ calls at different times in each person's life, and that would almost anti-vocational for some.

I know all these thoughts have been thrown pellmell at you, and I apologize profusely for anything that seems to harsh or defensive, but I am so tired of having to defend my movement, my special family. One day I know you will all finally understand. Whether you believe it or not, your remarks were very accusatory. I hope you know I will be praying for you. Your remarks brought me to tears and i'm still crying because you've hurt what I love so much and so dearly, the Church and my little family within it.

One last thing-
POPE BENEDICT SUPPORTS US AND LOVES US. THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH. YOU KNOW HE IS NOT LIKE THE POPES WHO SUPPORTED THE NAZIS, OR AT LEAST I HOPE YOU KNOW THAT. PLEASE HUMBLE YOURSELF TO ACCEPT WHAT HE LOVES AND ACCEPTS.

Thank you and I'm sending many prayers your way.
~*sarah*~

"Would Jesus start insulting people he disagrees with? "

Of course not, but remember that many times people took Christ's gentle reminders as insults.

I apologize once again for anything I might have said offensively. I seek to simply defend the movement, the Church, and Christ.
In the spirit of Christianity, I ask your forgiveness for anything I might have said that was not too "gentle" but remember that Christ too was not always gentle. Sometimes he was blunt. (Mk 11:15)

but just for the record, I greatly respect that you are all fighting for the Church and anything you think could possibly harm it. Although I am certain that Regnum Christi is helping not hurting the Church, I accept that many good Catholics will want to "check it out for themselves" before they formally accept it. I would do the same with another new movement. I have, overall, a great respect for those who want to defend the Church so much that they want to take down anything that might "stunt the growth" of the body of Christ.

However, I ask that you stop the accusing and simply look around. Regnum Christi isnt for everyone, but its such a beautiful family!

I love you all, brothers and sisters, continue fighting for Christ and looking for ways to better his Church militant! Let us fight together to save souls instead of throwing around accusations and suspicions. Are we not all in one family!? Then let us accept each's personal vocation, mine to the movement and yours to wherever you are in life, and fight for Christ, our beloved savior who wants to bring us so badly to his most Sacred Heart.

~*sarah*~

[quote=Vivacristorey,Jan 14 2006, 11:37



One last thing-
POPE BENEDICT SUPPORTS US AND LOVES US. THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH. YOU KNOW HE IS NOT LIKE THE POPES WHO SUPPORTED THE NAZIS, OR AT LEAST I HOPE YOU KNOW THAT. PLEASE HUMBLE YOURSELF TO ACCEPT WHAT HE LOVES AND ACCEPTS.
________________________________
But it give account you of which you say?.

Here's an article about John Paul II encouraging the Legionaries of Christ:
Pope Encourages Legionaries in Living Their Founder's Charism



There is also a video, In the Heart of the Pope

Since Benedict XVI is still in the beginning of his papacy, there's not as much about him and the Legionaries/Regnum Christi. That doesn't mean anything negative though.

I'm curious, what is the source that says there is an investigation regarding Fr. Maciel? The only legitimate sources I have seen have all been disproving such rumors...

Not as the one of Fr. Marcial Maciel goes, I have not said anything.

Nevertheless if of others in march:



US SEMINARY INVESTIGATION



Readers of the board should know that the Apostolic Visitation of Catholic seminaries and houses of priestly formation has been going on in the northeast US. So far, in the experience of those who have given testimony, it has proven to be a serious and substantial investigation of seminary life, taking up not only sexual, but also academic and spiritual
impropriety.

It is said that at first the Legion claimed exemption from investigation for its institutions and then deflected attention from Cheshire by claiming it is a high school, though they have been seeking state accreditation for it as a junior college. One also hears that Thornwood will be reviewed. I don¹t know whether these rumors are true or false.

What is certain is that here is a real opportunity for anyone who spent time at Thornwood or Cheshire to be heard on things they had issues with. The investigators have promulgated a list of questions to be responded to in interviews and in writing and they cover many of the areas that have been aired on this board, such as confusions of internal and external fora (confessors/spiritual directors distinct from superiors), weak academic standards, and idiosyncratic spirituality.

I would urge anyone who wishes to share their knowledge of these matters at Thornwood and Cheshire to write, even unasked, to the investigation in care of Archbishop Edwin O¹Brien, Coordinator for the Apostolic Visitation. His
address is

Most Rev. Edwin F. O'Brien
Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA
Post Office Box 4469
Washington DC 20017-0469



The Visitation's statement of procedure and investigative interests is called the 'instrumentum laboris' and can be seen at:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resou..._Seminaries.htm

Just to show what some of the issues are, some of the Visitation¹s questions that relate specifically to issues raised on this board include:

6. (6) How does the seminary safeguard the clear distinction between internal forum and external forum? Are all due precautions taken to protect the inviolability of the internal forum? (7) Does the seminary have both ordinary and extraordinary confessors? How often are there opportunities for confession?

7. (1) Are all philosophical/theological tracts adequately taught, both as regards the time dedicated to them and in the scope of material covered? Do you notice any lacunae in the program of studies? (2) Are the seminarians capable of dialoguing, on the intellectual level, with contemporary society? Do their studies help them to respond to contemporary subjectivism and, in particular, to moral relativism? (This question must be answered.)

8. (1) Is pastoral theology taught? By whom? (6) Does the institution teach a proper understanding of the role of women in ecclesial life? Do they understand the proper models of clergy-lay cooperation?

11. Other Concerns. The Visitors will indicate to the Holy See any other concerns that they may have about the formation program of the seminary.

These questions are being taken very seriously by the investigators and could prove invaluable in focusing attention on any deviation from Church teaching regarding seminary formation.

National Catholic Reporter

Issue Date: June 3, 2005

Legion eager to get past founder's sex abuse charges
By JASON BERRY

The Vatican’s announcement May 20 that Legionaries of Christ founder Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado will face no canonical trial for numerous accusations of sexually abusing seminarians put a spotlight on the new papacy of Benedict XVI, raising questions and drawing harsh criticism from victims.

In many circles, the announcement, widely distributed by the Legionaries, was seen as the Vatican’s way of saying “case closed” on the questions surrounding Maciel and the accusations of sexual abuse first made public by a group of former seminarians and, in recent months, by a growing number of other alleged victims.

Four days after that initial announcement, however, NCR learned that the original statement on the matter was issued not by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has jurisdiction over priest sex abuse cases, but by the Vatican Secretariat of State, which is run by Italian Cardinal Angelo Sodano, a vocal supporter of the Legionaries and a longtime friend of Maciel.

Whether that fact makes any difference in the eventual disposition of the case against Maciel is unclear. The revelation, however, at least clouds the picture and hints at potentially differing agendas within the church’s highest bureaucracy. For while the Secretariat of State said that there is no canonical proceeding, nor is one expected in the future, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, at least until recently, was engaged in an extensive investigation that was characterized as preliminary to any canonical action.

A complicated tale

The complicated tale of pronouncements began May 21 when Fr. Ciro Benedittini, a spokesman in the Vatican press office, told The New York Times: “There is no investigation now, and it is not foreseeable that there will be another investigation in the future.” Benedittini’s announcement confirmed a Catholic News Service story of the day before, published in response to a Legion statement. Jay Dunlap, communications director for the Legionaries in North America, told The New York Times that the Holy See’s announcement “sounds like” an exoneration of Maciel.

The announcement that church legal proceedings would not go forward apparently foreclosed a major investigation underway by a representative of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican agency most recently headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected Pope Benedict XVI in April.

“This transparent whitewash aborts the church’s legal system to the benefit” of Maciel and to “the harm of brave, persistent victims,” David Clohessy, director of Survivors Network for those Abused by Priests (SNAP), said in a statement released May 22.

According to observers in Rome, the publication of a lengthy May 20 report on the Maciel case by Italian journalist Sandro Magister, headlined “A trial against Fr. Maciel is drawing ever more near,” may have prompted the declaration, presumed by most to have come from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and addressed to the general headquarters of the Legionaries in Rome. Typically, the doctrinal congregation does not comment on whether it is investigating someone.

The fact that Msgr. Charles Scicluna was investigating Maciel had been widely reported.

Even if the announcement by the Secretariat of State proves correct, what remains unclear is whether the decision reflects a finding within the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that the charges against Maciel are unconvincing -- or whether, holding aside the evidence Scicluna obtained, the decision was made not to prosecute because Maciel is 85 and recently resigned as the order’s superior. Speaking at the time of Maciel’s resignation last January, one senior Vatican official predicted that those factors would “weigh significantly” in an eventual decision.

Congregation remains mum

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the agency responsible for judging such cases, has remained mum on the case and refused to comment on the recent confusion about the Vatican and Legionaries announcements.

By failing to clarify what the investigation by Scicluna, the promoter of justice at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had found, the Vatican statement left significant questions unanswered. In recent weeks, Scicluna interviewed at least 32 people in America and Mexico about Maciel, telling them it was for a report to the pope.

The pope can halt or intervene in any canonical case. If the case was halted:

Why did Benedict XVI decide against an ecclesiastical trial?
Will the Holy See affirm Maciel’s innocence, something it has not done since the sex abuse allegations by nine former Legionaries were first reported in 1997 by the Hartford (Conn.) Courant?
If not, how does the Vatican explain the allegations?
Will the congregation destroy its investigative findings, as canon law allows when an authority declines to prosecute a canonical case?
Was Scicluna allowed to finish the report?
Has Benedict XVI read it?
The announcement jolted those who filed the 1998 canonical case against Maciel at the Vatican. “We must be exonerated of the accusations against us by the Legionaries,” José Barba, a professor at the Instituo Tecnologico Autonimo Mexico, told NCR by telephone from Mexico City. “We are the victims and we have been telling the truth. If the Holy See does not make a declaration of the truth, we stand in limbo. Is that justice?”

Since the 1997 Courant report on the allegations by seven Mexicans and two Spaniards, the Legion’s public statements and Web site have accused Barba, a historian with a doctorate from Harvard, and the eight others of a conspiracy to damage Maciel’s reputation. Maciel, who has denied the charges in issued statements, has remained unavailable to the media since 1997.

Although the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has a history of singling out theologians for punishment, no high church official has been publicly punished by the Vatican for sexual crimes under canon law.

Maciel lives in Rome at the Legion headquarters, though in late April he was reportedly in Cotija, his birthplace in Mexico. Vatican sources told NCR May 25 that Maciel was in Mexico making pastoral visits to Legion facilities and was expected to return to Rome.

In 1998, Archbishop Augusto Mullor, the papal nuncio in Mexico, told Barba, “The church has tribunals of her own,” encouraging him to file a canonical grievance against Maciel. Msgr. Antonio Roqueni, a leading canonist in Mexico City, and Martha Wegan, a canonist licensed to practice at the Vatican, worked on the complaint filed with the congregation that accused Maciel of giving absolution in confession to his victims, a moral crime that has no statute of limitations under canon law.

Barba called Wegan, the canonist in Rome, after the Vatican announcement that Maciel would not be prosecuted. “She had received no word” from the congregation about the announcement, he told NCR.

When he was congregation prefect, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger halted proceedings at Christmas 1999, later telling a Mexican bishop that it was “delicate” because of Maciel’s record in attracting young men to the priesthood. Maciel and the Legionaries enjoyed lavish praise from Pope John Paul II, who never acknowledged the allegations. Late last year, Ratzinger ordered the case to proceed (NCR, Jan. 7) -- in fact, resurrecting it -- and dispatched Scicluna to investigate.

On April 2 in New York, Scicluna interviewed Juan Vaca. Vaca had made the first canonical protest of Maciel to Rome in 1976, as a priest who had left the Legion for the Rockville Centre, N.Y., diocese. With his bishop’s support Vaca sent a list of 20 men identified as victims to the Vatican. The dossier included a statement from a second ex-Legionary, Fr. Félix Alarcón, affirming that he too was a victim of Maciel. The Vatican did nothing then, nor in 1978 nor 1989 when Vaca sought action against Maciel. Vaca left the priesthood and married.

“Scicluna told me, ‘We owe you guys an apology. The church did not protect you,’ ” Vaca told NCR after the news broke from Rome.

“I am outraged,” Vaca said. “We are being re-abused.”

On April 3, with television riveted on the solemn beauty of the events surrounding John Paul’s death, Scicluna was off to Mexico City.

There, over the next week, 30 witnesses went to Casa de Santa Brigida, a three-story convent in a nondescript building at 57 Avenido Uno. The Vatican canonist asked them to swear on a rosary that their testimony was truthful; witnesses also signed formal documents under seal by the Holy See. A Mexican, Fr. Pedro Miguel Funes Díaz, sat by Scicluna, typing on a laptop, notarizing the testimonies with signatures and an official Vatican stamp.

Scicluna refused to comment on any aspect of the investigation.

The Vatican removed Maciel from his position in 1956 during a period when, according to Barba and others, he was addicted to a morphine drug known as dolantine. These events are omitted from the Legionaries’ official history. Maciel was reinstated in early 1959.

The men who brought the 1998 canonical case said they were intimidated into lying to the Vatican investigators in the 1950s. The Legion claims Maciel was innocent and that the 1998 charges were long since disproven.

Three new witnesses

In April, however, the radius of accusations widened in Mexico, as men who had not gone public before testified to Scicluna. La Jornada, a Mexican daily, identified three new witnesses, including Carlos de Isla, a professor of philosophy in his 70s, who was one of the first 12 youths to join Maciel’s fledgling order in 1941, but soon left. The content of his testimony is not known. Two other men not party to the 1998 case testified about Maciel’s abuses, Salvador Andrade and Francisco González Parga. “The latter admitted, according to those present at the meeting, that after being the object of Maciel’s abuse, he began to use drugs and that his superiors, upon realizing this, neither said nor did anything,” the newspaper reported.

“Twenty people gave direct testimony that they were abused,” Barba told NCR.

The news from Rome left bitter feelings in Mexico.

“We gave a vote of confidence to this pope,” Barba told NCR. “We were asked to sign a paper of the Holy See saying we would not disclose our written testimonies, which we signed. … We presented new witnesses to Scicluna that prove Maciel was doing the same things” after 1959.

One of those testifying was José Antonio Pérez Olvera, an attorney whose brother also left the Legion after being pursued by Maciel, according to a story by Alma E. Muñoz of La Jornada.

Another witness was Alejandro Espinosa, author of El Legionario, a memoir of alleged sexual encounters with Maciel that has sold 20,000 copies in Mexico. Espinosa left the Legion in the early 1960s and was one of the first to accuse Maciel. Espinosa told NCR on May 2 that Scicluna assured him he had a strong case against Maciel. Espinosa and others have long maintained that Maciel was cleared by the Vatican in 1958 because the young seminarians had taken a vow never to speak ill of Maciel and to report such statements to their superiors.

“I was told by Maciel not to tell the truth,” said Espinosa, a trim, forceful man with wavy silver hair. “I didn’t know whether to be obedient to my superiors or the Vatican. … I was trembling when I talked to them [in 1958] because I knew I was lying. I swore on a Bible.”

Maciel, who turned 85 in March, has lived for many years at the Legion headquarters in Rome. He has had his tomb constructed at Our Lady of Guadalupe Church in Rome, which he built in the 1950s, demonstrating early prowess as a fundraiser. Maciel’s picture hangs in Legion schools in several countries, where students -- like Legion seminarians -- have long been taught that he is a living saint.

Maciel enjoyed remarkable support from Pope John Paul II, which gave the Legionaries a base of support in attacking the charges, even after Scicluna was given a green light to gather information.

“This investigation will be an atomic bomb for the Legionaries,” Msgr. Roqueni, a canonist who gave testimony to Scicluna, predicted in a May 4 interview with NCR in Mexico City. Referring to the order’s history of cultivating bishops and cardinals, Roqueni said: “Scicluna is more interested in the Legionaries. He told me, ‘They are corrupt.’ ”

Just how far Scicluna, also a canonist, was able to follow his leads is unclear because the native of Malta works under a pontifical vow of secrecy, as do all staffers at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Substantial information has been published by the author of a Spanish book, among other books that were provided to Scicluna as secondary source material. Los documentos secretos de los Legionarios de Cristo (“The secret documents of the Legionaries of Christ”), published last fall in Madrid by religion reporter José Martínez de Velasco, quotes extracts from internal files the author obtained from disaffected Legionary priests in Spain and Ireland. Several of those priests were reportedly prepared to give testimony. The book is published by Ediciones B of Barcelona, one of Spain’s most prestigious publishing houses.

One chapter focuses on events at Regina Apostolarum, the Legion’s academic complex in Rome. Cardinals and bishops are in demand for its conferences and receptions. Who among them knew their comments were being written down by seminarians as internal reports for the order? Martínez de Velasco quotes from the documents that seminarians wrote, quoting prominent guests, including Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, prefect of the Congregation for Clergy at the Vatican.

The petty, backbiting memos as quoted offer little important information about Castrillón Hoyos or the bishops identified. But the account shows the order assigned seminarians to cater to illustrious guests only to spy on them and write accounts of what the visitors say for internal files. The author suggests that this practice extends the mentality created by the special vow, never to speak illof Maciel and to report on anyone who does.

Investigation’s impact

Scicluna left Mexico April 12, before Ratzinger was elected pope. He had enough secondary material to fill a trunk: eight books in Spanish, stacks of articles and documentaries that mostly portray Maciel as a predatory figure whose pathological behavior is defended by an entrenched culture of disinformation.

The dossier of materials Barba provided for Scicluna included the first book published about Maciel: La prodigiosa aventura de los Legionarios de Cristo (“The prodigious adventure of the Legionaries of Christ,” 2001)by Alfonso Torres Robles, a pioneering Spanish journalist who has a sequel forthcoming. Another book by José Martínez de Velasco, published in 2002, is titled Los Legionarios de Cristo, el nuevo ejército del Papa (“The Legionaries of Christ, the pope’s new army”).

“When I showed Scicluna the books, he said, ‘All this?’ ” said Barba. “And I said, ‘Yes, Monsignor, all this.’ ”

The books included El circulo del poder y la espiral del silencio (“The circle of power and the spiral of silence”), a collection of essays by several prominent religious sociologists, with a lead article by Fernando González, a psychoanalyst with a doctorate in Sociology from the Sorbonne. El nombre del Padre: Depredadores sexuales en la Iglesia (“The name of the father: Sexual predators in the church”) by Carlos Fazio, a sociologist and prominent writer, examines Maciel in the context of global abuse scandals. Votas de silencio is the Spanish translation of Vows of Silence by this reporter and Gerald Renner.

In the last several years, as the Mexican media provided forums to authors, contributors and journalists on their findings, Maciel refused to respond, relying on Legion officials to reiterate his defense. Against this background, Scicluna’s visit emboldened the Mexican media.

“Father Maciel Has Been Defeated”read a May 3 headline in the daily Milenio by columnist Ciro Gómez Leyva, one of the country’s leading journalists and host of a cable news show. “It is the end for Fr. Maciel,” he wrote.

Aside from whatever conclusion the prosecutor might reach, the Holy See and Pope Benedict XVI have reason to question Maciel’s responsibility in these sexual assaults against seminarians, almost children really, in the seminaries of the Legion of Christ. … As with Pinochet in Chile the final verdict will be secondary to the high points of the life of Marcial Maciel. The Vatican seems to have understood and accepted that the accusers bring together enough elements of verisimilitude, trustworthiness and credibility that it is imperative that attention be paid to them.

Such words were unthinkable a few years ago. Graduates of Legion schools and Northern Anahuac University in Mexico City, its flagship university, occupy considerable power in Mexican business, society and politics. Gómez Leyva learned that the hard way in 1997, after a documentary in which he and Marisa Iglesias profiled Maciel’s accusers: An advertisers’ boycott nearly killed the channel.

Early this month, the documentary, updated, aired in prime time.

“I showed Msgr. Scicluna two documentaries, and he took notes,” Barba told NCR.

The comparison of Maciel and Pinochet has an ironic parallel with Cardinal Angelo Sodana, the Vatican secretary of state and Maciel’s strongest supporter within the Roman curia. Sodano was papal nuncio in Chile during the Pinochet years, when the dictatorship welcomed Maciel and the Legionaries.

Roberta Garza, another Milenio columnist, writes from the industrial capital of Monterey, Mexico. Garza’s comments have special resonance as one of her brothers, Luis Garza, is the second-highest Legionary priest in Rome, under Alvaro Corcuera Martínez del Rio, a 47-year-old Mexican, who is the order’s new director general. (Maciel retired in December, citing reasons of age, as news broke of Scicluna’s probe.) “The problem with setting up these artificial altars is that, as with all divinities, they exact tribute,” Roberta Garza wrote of Maciel on May 8.

Avoiding U.S. media

Maciel avoided the U.S. media long before he was accused in 1997. That is why he is barely known to most U.S. Catholics. That anonymity was a calculated strategy at the Legion’s Orange, Conn., headquarters well before my colleague, Gerald Renner, did the first reports in the Hartford Courant of two young men escaping from the Legion seminary, complaining of psychological coercion, and of what some termed the Legion’s shadowy fundraising tactics.

Maciel made orchestrated appearances for fundraisers and events for Regnum Christi, the order’s lay arm that helps raise money. Because he does not speak English, a Legion priest was always there to translate. Maciel’s commercial value lay in his elite mystique -- a courageous anticommunist, a confidante of the pope. To subject “Nuestro Padre” -- Our Father, as he is known within the order and Regnum Christi -- to any press scrutiny risked puncturing the façade of “a living saint,” his heroic persona in the Legion’s literature.

As the books by various authors point out, the history of the order’s founding is riddled with factual errors and historical inconsistencies, designed to promote Maciel’s cult of personality.

At conferences and fundraisers Maciel told the story of seeing priest’s bodies hanged in his hometown during the anticlerical persecutions in the 1930s, after the Mexican Revolution. That may be true; but other events, such as his heroic leading of Catholic protests in Veracruz, Mexico, in 1937, as a teenager, against an anticlerical government, are preposterous on their face and lack historical proof. Maciel’s persona succeeded in attracting orthodox followers and raising huge sums from those with wealth. He appealed to those recoiling from cultural changes in a post-Vatican II church. Photographs of Maciel and John Paul fed the apparatus linked to fundraising: a Web site, the weekly National Catholic Register, and a news service in Rome, Zenit.

The Legion did what no other order does: sent seminarians out with priests to seek funds from donors. Maciel became the most successful fundraiser of the late-20th-century church, fueling a $60 million budget for an order with about 600 priests -- if Legion figures are to believed -- and only 2,500 seminarians. The Vatican budget is $260 million.

The Legion’s strategy hinged on promoting Maciel as a living saint; the order marketed itself as “re-evangelizing” the church. A strategy of “capturing followers” permeated the movement, as Regnum Christi is called, and collided with a post-Vatican II model of pluralism in parish life. That is why Archbishop Harry Flynn of St. Paul-Minneapolis, Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles and several other prelates prohibit the Legion from functioning in their dioceses. Flynn accused them of promoting “a separate church.”

During the past few years Maciel has canceled his spectacular appearances at the Legionaries’ annual family day festivals in the United States. In 2003 Maciel was scheduled to address thousands gathered in Chicago. When he failed to arrive and event organizers played a videotaped address from the Legion founder, a reporter speculated in the Chicago Tribune that Maciel had failed to appear because he feared American abuse-victim groups would protest his presence.

The official Legion explanation was this: Maciel had been on some important pastoral visit to South America. From there, he was scheduled to fly to Chicago. However, said Legion spokesman Dunlap, Maciel was diverted by a sudden request from an unnamed cardinal to return to Rome on urgent business.

The Web site Legionaryfacts.org, and such American Catholics as Fr. Richard John Neuhaus and Harvard Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon (who also teaches at the Legion seminary in Rome) have long derided the allegations. Neuhaus has called them “malicious.”

A problem for Maciel’s defenders -- and this papacy -- is that the genie is out of the bottle: The Vatican itself decided to begin an investigation. Thirty-two people gave detailed testimony.

Jason Berry.

Please don't cite articles from the National Catholic Reporter, they are not a reliable source. Remember, this is the same publications who's headline after the Instruction regarding homosexuals in the seminary was "For What It's Worth, Our Condolences." They breed suspicion and disunity within the Catholic Church.

It is I articulate but detailed that I know on the case, and until now that it is certain, if it had found some lie not it post.
you have asked the details of the investigation, although you do not like the source this is not rumors.
The single investigation finished when it says the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

I strongly reccomend www.legionaryfacts.org, official legionary answers to negative reports.

I still fail to understand why other Catholics continually attack us. When has our movement ever stood outside of Charity? When have we offended the Holy Catholic Church? When have we ever done anything to offend the Vatican's laws?

Christ gives us a mission in life, and just because not everyone's mission is to Regnum Christi does not mean that others should bash it. Just because someone is a member of other movements does not lead me to bash them! I thank God for them! Why cant others do the same if this movement is bringing me closer to Christ? Why do other Catholics not want me to find my faith in Christ, my best friend and my loving Father? Its almost as if they don't want me to find my faith. If they could only grasp what this movement has done for me!

Christ told us this would happen, however. (John 15:20) We should have seen it coming I guess. The devil never rests.

~*sarah*~

Hello again, Vivacristorey,

Peace to you again! I totally forgive you! I can even see that your reaction was kind of normal since you are part of ecyd, and also a teenager. As a teen I might react more angrily than now - but that lack of clearheadedness actually helps my point that teenagers shouldn't make life choices in high school. Especially in an environment that itself is extraordinarily conducive (if not pressuring) for the decision to be "yes I join."

One thing about your article - It is a well known fact that Zenit is operated by the Legionaries, so it is somewhat questionable to claim it as a source of unbiased information about them.

Secondly, you state the the RC/Legion is the most under attack of all Movements. Actually, the other day, Pope Benedict severely sanctioned another of your "fellow" movements, the NeoCatechumenates because of Liturgical irregularities in their practice.

Thirdly, you keep saying that I have "accused" which I have not done! I simply stated my experience and some facts - namely that an investigation is ongoing, and that I don't think it is appropriate for minors to live the life of a consecrated person - strict norms and policies of obedience to these norms - when they, as minors, are not sufficiently mature nor legally endowed with the right to make life decisions such as marriage.

Question - would your parents allow you to seriously date, with the intention of marriage, in High School?

Probably not.

YET, THIS IS WHAT the precandidacy says is its purpose for existence. A period of discernment - serious dating if you will - to see if you are to be consecrated - married - at the end of senior year. I just see this as premature for young girls to be making life decisions with hormones raging. Even the name "precandidate" suggests discernment, and a serious commitment which I think is very much premature for girls in high school.

As far as "Fr. Maciel" - I have not accused him, I only pointed out that this pope, Benedict, has re-opened the case against him. If he is innocent, then I think he and everyone would agree that the investigation will prove it! (Think of Cardinal Bernadin, who was accused and shown to be innocent) But I dont think we should hide from information that is uncomfortable.

I hope my position is clear. I am not trying to be a Hater!!!! I'm just giving some TRUE, VALID INFO about my experience and current events surrounding the Legion, and specifically the RI "Precandidacy"

Love you all!

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept from you any "accusations" which is really exactly what they are. God calls at different points in a person's life. He does not have a systematic calling. He does not say, "Every person is called after they are eighteen years of age !" No! He called St. Therese of Liseuix when she was VERY young, and you cannot possibly say that her calling was not genuine.

Maybe YOU didnt' have a good experience at the precandidacy, and maybe YOU weren't mature enough (and there's nothing wrong with that) but every precandidate I've ever seen is amazingly radiantly happy, a happiness no one can say is false. Christ radiates off their faces, and they think they're the most blessed people in the world for being able to go to that school I will ask for the final time that you do not spread lies and rumors anymore. Just because you may have not been called to this vocation does not mean no one is and that it is evil. Just because YOU didnt have a great experience doesnt mean NO ONE will. Your words are hurtful, whether or not you intend them to be, to those of us who love the movement with all our hearts. Your words are insulting when you say that the precandidacy is not a good thing for those of us who have relatives and friends who have been there or are planning to go there ourselves.

Sometimes Christ calls in the strangest of times, such as the years we have, to use your phrase, "raging hormones" and are a little unstable. One of the newly consecrated said herself she did not go to the precandidacy for the right reasons, but nevertheless it was God's call and she's more happy and joyous than she's ever been in her life. and incidentally, I completelyl believe her. You can't give a smile like that and not be truly happy.

I will simply ask you to stop posting on this thread if you do not want to say anything kind about something the Vatican has approved. I am young, yes, and I have "raging hormones" but that does not in any case mean that my opinions dont matter, or that I dont know as much about my beloved Movement in Mother Church as you do. Did Christ himself not say, "Let the children come to me... Unless you become like these you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." ? Yes, teenagers make mistakes but God loves us and reveals to us some things he doesnt reveal to adults.

I believe the greatest reason I love the movement so much is because of its influence on my faith. Also for the same reason I'm Catholic. I have faith. I cant see everything, but I believe it because I have faith. I have faith that there are no lies in Nuestro Padre's eyes, and that what they've taught me is true. Christ gave me this movement as a gift. Please dont tell me the gift my best friend has given me is evil, because I will simply disregard what you say.

Im sorry, once again, for any harsh words I have posted here, but remember that Christ was not always gentle. Sometimes he was blunt and others took his remarks as insults. Please take them as what I know for a fact is true through countless hours of adoration on this exact topic we discuss, and remember that I love you all very much and I only want you to know the truth.

Someday, I know, you'll know this is truth.

Please dont categorize teenagers like the mass media does: hormonal, overdramatic, shallow, and insecure. We are more than the world tells us. We are children of God.

I forgive you for your harsh words as well. Your insults are now behind me, and I will forget them. Let us (forgive me for this quote) do as Nuestro Padre says and "Begin again"

I completely agree with you about the "dating" Christ thing for highschool in that, if it were any other normal, "hormonal", morally imperfect guy, my parents wouldn't even listen to my case.
But this guy's got no faults, will never hurt me, will never let me down, and has loved me since before I existed. He gives me the flowers every morning and the moon every night. He spells my name in the stars and artistically sculps the clouds so that I can find shapes out of them at my leisure. He never leaves my side, he has a GREAT relationship with my parents, and has asked if I can please go to his school. After all that (did I mention he died for me after I sin against him again and again?), how could I refuse his gentle calling "Follow me." ?

Hello Sarah.


You begin recommending directions, I recommend this
http://www.exlegionaries.com/. They are men and women who have left the RC.
Everything sees very pretty when you are young, when you think that your way this indicated and when generously you decide to give your life to an ideal.
I dont say nothing if you wanted to enter a traditional order, because they do not accept to you if you do not have vocation, and if they see that you have welcome.
But the RC, almost all the people who make the discernment have vocation, that chance, no?.
What they try is to catch the greater amount of possible people, to a very early age.
I also joint with 16 years in another one organization, the disappointment was brutal. You thought, this not happened with me and nevertheless the life gives many returns.
I continue saying that the RC catches youngs skipping the teaching of the church, some congregations have raised the age until the 21 years
in order to make sure the maturity its members.
You speak of St. Therese of Liseuix , a only case by its circumstances,
I doubt much that your parents nor nobody let to you enter in a carmelit monasterie with 14 years, they think that you go to one high school to follow your education.
You take yourself the criticize to the RC like something yours, and I do not have anything against you, while the RC preaches a charity, that they has never had with his exmembers, they treat them as if never they had existed, in spite of taking 3.5.10 and up to 30 years of delivery. The case of TricksterB is first exception that I know.
when other congregations help them and they are interested for who leave.
At this point you thought that I am the devil hindering your vocation, in the OD when tapeworm doubts say to me the same
When joints with the RC say this to your parents:
1º I am going to see to you at the most twice the year, that if me they
authorize it.
2º You are going to happen to a second place, now I have another family.
3º I will go to the ceremonies of the family (Marriages, baptisms, 1ª
comunnion), whenever me they autorizen it, perhasp accompanied of other member of RC, but I will not have left to the celebration.
4º I will never study in the university, the RC does not give importance to the studies of the consecrated womens.
5º When the disease or the oldness comes, it will visit to you if me they authorize it, but will not take care of you, my apostolates are more important, it is just as others like sisters or nuns if they do it.

all i know is that because of Regnum Christi I have found Christ. I may not be the most educated of all people (actually, I know perfectly well that i am not) but anything that brings me closer to Christ I honor and cherish. It is because of Regnum Christi that i have Christ.

I am not going to analyze each of its parts (by the way, for official answers to accusations posted by the website you mentioned, see www.legionaryfacts.org) and I am not going to tell you every one of its ways of bringing people closer to Christ, but I am going to tell you that it gave me the greatest joy of my life, the greatest peace that I could love Christ as my best friend. I did not get this from any other group or any parish group, this knowledge that Christ loves me so much he will always listen, he will always be there, that he is my closest friend and my greatest comfort. That he will carry me through life and let me rest in his loving arms. No one else has yet helped me to live out my faith besides Regnum Christi. It is only THROUGH Regnum Christi that I can go to Sunday Mass at my parish and really live it to its fullest.

I deeply regret that many people think that I'm just an ignorant little girl who doesnt understand that this great big evil paralell chuch is trying to recruit her, and that they feel "sorry" for me. i feel sorry for them. they just dont get it. they just dont understand.
I understand COMPLETLEY what i've "gotten into" by joining ECYD. I've "gotten into" the greatest relationship with Christ I've ever had, and NO ONE can take that away from me.

please stop posting here if you are going to spread rumors about the movement that gave me Christ and hope in the Church.
I'm sorry, but I cannot allow you to post negatively about it. period. End of discussion. no comprimise.

Peace to all. Im sure one day you'll understand.
~*sarah*~

Umm, I don't want to poke my head in here and say anything but I am not aware that anyone can tell someone else to stop posting their views. I mean everyone is entitled to their views....The good, the bad the ugly.

I just wanted to say welcome to PM

welcome to the thread, marieteresa!
i just meant that everything I've said so far has been torn down with lies by others on this thread... if this movement has given me Christ, I dont see any problem with it.
perhaps you could tell us your views on Regnum Christi?
~*sarah*~

sorry... im on my friend's phatmass name and i didnt realize.. this is vivacristorey... sorry sorry sorry folks

Personally I know very little about RC or the LC and I am just beginning to learn about both organizations. I am just wonder how did you learn about RC and what made you decide to join them. I am guessing I asking about a vocation story here.

In JMJ

I would also like to second vivachristorey's experiences with Regnum Christi. (and just for the record, i'm 23) I joined Regnum Christi almost two years ago, and I have to say no other singular group in my life has had a more positive impact on my spiritual life and intimacy with Christ. Before joining I read all the websites that are out there, and talked with several people who had had negative experiences with Regnum Christi, and I still discerned that Christ was calling me to Regnum Christi. Having seen from both sides of the fence, I can assure you that any eagerness to increase membership in Regnum Christi and the Legion is out of charity, it is wanting to share with others the treasure we have found. Regnum Christi has given me what I was longing for, the concrete means to progress in my spiritual life and grow closer to Christ day by day.

For a catholic that practices it is very attractive in the beginning, formed priests, devotee people. Once introduced they convince to you that these in the best site. The normal people of RC it thinks . They request to you and even demand that only go to its means of formation, confession only with legionary priests ect.......
Without hardly contact with other catholics groups, this can get to create a parallel church, for that reason and other reasons have been banned from several dioceses.
http://www.regainnetwork.org/article.php?a=47245877

in your admirable haste to defend the Holy Catholic Church from harmful cults and devisions, ruso, I'm afraid you have become a bit biased against Regnum Christi. Why not look at the website and and other sites in FAVOR of it and then compare what you've found?
Morostheos has expressed very clearly what I believe as well... all attempts at "recruitment" are to share what we've found. if you find Regnum Christi is not for you, then congratulations for discerning God's will for you!
I would also like to clear up what you've said, ruso. all legionary priests i've met have encouraged regnum christi members to get involved in their parishes and talk with their parish priests regularly. They encourage us to look to the parish for many things, such as some parts of formation (life teen, rcia, etc) as well as for the sacraments and Mass. Nothing anti-parish has been said that I have heard of, and if you have heard anything specifically a Legionary has said saying "Do not go to your parish. Come to me. Legionaries are the only ones with truth. Forget the Church! Who needs it!" then please tell me and I will leave Regnum Christi immediately. I'm afraid, however, you will be wasting your time searching, because no such comment has (i believe) ever been made.

~*vivacristorey on friend's computer*~

My point about dating wasnt a fear of pregnancy or other dangerous possibilities or that Jesus is not perfect...that is irrelevant. The point is that you lack the maturity, as a teenager, to seriously date ANYONE or ANYTHING. I dont think parents would want their teens changing religions (regardless of whether your parents are Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu or Siek), or considering deep, life commitments to any organization.

Anyways, this thread is no longer about the PC, it seems to have grown to include lots more...and I was only interested in giving a heads up to those interested in what is said to be a "high school" but really is a nunnery.

If that I have been read for a long time webs favorable to LC and RC, and for a long time it has been positioning to me in against of LC and RC.
Because I have seen as they make the things, in Spain, in Mexico, and now in USA, in Spain no longer the movement grows because its bad fame precedes to them, In Mexico one begins to collapse its framework
and in the USA I see that some bishops take measures against them.
Anyway if I must emphasize something that I said before, I have not said that the members of the RC do not go to the parishes, in fact assets in them are enough mainly by "to share with others the treasure we have found".
What I said to confess itself single to legionary priests is for those
who want that they are introduced more, already the wraths seeing.
In end, I am tired from that each one draws its own conclusions.
With Christ always.

Some food for thought from one of my favorite Cardinals, Cardinal Schonborn:


Notes:
8 Cf. H. Gasper, "Ein problematisches Etikett: Mit dem Sektenbegriff sollte man behutsam umgehen", Herder Korrespondenz 50 (1996), 577-580; H. Maier, "Sekten in der Kirche? Es muß Platz geben für unterschiedliche Wege", Klerusblatt 76 (1996), 208.
9 I. Kapitel, ed., Referat für Weltanschauungsfragen der Erzdiözese Wien, 1986, p. 5

Quoted from:
Are there Sects in the Catholic Church?
By Archbishop Christoph Schonborn
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
13/20 August 1997, page 3
L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.

We are speaking of more of 200 priests or ex priests, exmembers of LC,
if we included exseminarists and old consecrated women the numbers
increase much. All almost say the same, that in the LC if it is a general experience, some tried to change the things, but they were not listened.
Now the "war" between some exmembers and the LC and RC is total.
Losers: No only the Lc and RC and exmembers, but all the Church.

Cecy from Atlanta was my spiritual director!!! She was good. I know so many people at the school.

There are a bunch of Cecys. lol I know like 4...

Regnum Cristi is good. Im not a fanatic, but, its good.

Do you mean to say your parents, Sara, are not Catholic? Im confused...

She has many good points.

The consecrated do try to help you but it is not always the right thing. And I personally would like to tlak personally with a priest.

A few friends of mine from the school write me still. Great girls. I love them (Amelia knows them...) But, they are constanly asking me to come to a convention or something, and I know for a fact that is what the consecrated want them to do. It gets annoying and it sometimes hurts my feelings thinking this is the only reason there writing me! But I know there good friends.

But Unlike what she is saying, Sara is right when she says it is a good thing that they have a strict scedule. They do it for christ and it is not overdone.

When it comes to letter writing I totally ont think its a good thing they look through it before they give it to you. That is just...weird. You go to a boarding school but you also have your personal life which should be respected.

Wearing skirts is not bad. Theres nothing wrong with that. And when you say they dont exercise and eat unhealthy...I dont think so. You might of gone there for 3 years...but I was there and I lost weight BEACUSE of all the exercise they have you do!!!

And when it came to a girl thinking about college and they kicked her out for it...that is also confusing and weird. It is true that you like have to agree with them. I felt a little weird th