I've heard before of people being turned away from convents (for entrance) because they have medical conditions which are too great a burden for the order. What kind of conditions would this be? Why would they turn them away? Could they not get insurance provided by their family or something? Is this more complicated than it sounds? What if there is something that is physically wrong with them, which only sometimes impairs normal function, but they've never done anything about it anyway?

I'm full of questions, I know. The more you visit here the more you feel compelled to know!

I am going to answer for Denise and can only speak to her experience.

First Denise was required to have health insurance for 1 year to cover any medical issue that might occur during that first year. After that, the community would cover anything that came up.

Denise was required to have a complete physical and a long questionaire was to be completed by her physician including psych. evaluation.

I do not know what would have happened if she were not found to be in sound health

Deb


I am going to answer for Denise and can only speak to her experience.

First Denise was required to have health insurance for 1 year to cover any medical issue that might occur during that first year. After that, the community would cover anything that came up.

Denise was required to have a complete physical and a long questionaire was to be completed by her physician including psych. evaluation.

I do not know what would have happened if she were not found to be in sound health

Deb

This question has come up many times in many places. If I tried to enumerate, I know I'd leave something out.

People are sometimes critical of orders who don't take discerners with handicaps. As one cloistered nun put it, such is not a part of that order's charism. An order which takes someone with handicaps, etc., has to do so as a part of their charism.

I can only speak from experience on this. There are many out there who are handicapped and want to serve, but due to . . .whatever. . .orders won't accept them.

Our Cloisterites are going to, and in fact already have, accepted aspirants who are "less than perfect." Our first committed aspirant is a blind chef and personal trainer. Another is on heart medication for the rest of her life. The Cloisterites will have perpetual adoration eventually--once we get the personnel--and the way we're going to do it is this: the able-bodied sisters/brothers will cover the nocturnal hours; the "sick" sisters/brothers will cover the day-time hours.

We will also be offering the opportunity of claustral oblates--those who must remain on disability or those who cannot receive annulments for whatever reason. We already have one aspirant for our claustral oblates. She will be requiring a lot of physical support due to her condition. She joins her suffering to Jesus Crucified, and has a super attitude toward it all.

Our foundations are one of very few who will receive people with annulments. I know some priests and religious will consider a person with an annulment a "married" person, but that's contrary to reality. An annulment states that there wasn't a marriage to begin with, according to our Canon Law. Half of our aspirants have annulments.

The only proposed SOLC Foundation what will not be able to accept the handicapped will be the Religious of St. John Cassian. They will be the most austere of our cloistered orders.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,
Gemma

Why would people with annulments would be rejected?

Often times good health is a sign of a religious vocation. Also the devil can make people who do not have good health want a vocation even though it is not what they are called to do. It's one of those things when the devil tempts you to do something that is in itself good but it is not the perfect thing for you. like if a man wants to be a priest but he is allergic to wheat usually a seminary wont take him. I am not putting this as a blanket answer for every one who doesnt have perfect health. That is just one thing another thing is that orders usually have a very extensive entrance application that includes checking your health. Sometimes order will take some one without out perfect health if they discern that the person is right for their community. Because the order is itself discerning as much as the person to try and figure out God's will. Also living monastic life is very difficult and if some one has health disorders it might prevent them from getting as much out of the life as they could. So there are alot of things that go into the process. THose are just some things the question made me think of. If some one more knowledgable contradicts me then i will be happy because I dont wont to be speaking untruths. God Bless and Mary Keep
Karin

About the annulments, I don't know. It may depend on the community.

I second what Karin said about good health as being one sign of a vocation. Again, I think the type of "conditions" that would lead to a community turning one away varies, based very much on the order.

Also, from a practical standpoint, there are some communities that rely entirely on God's Providence to provide for their needs (i.e. their apostolates don't make any money) which means that they would just have a much harder time covering medical expenses.

I can certainly understand why good health might be required, but I too question why an order would not accept somebody who has had an annulment. I know for a fact, for example, that the PCPAs accept annulees. (is that a word )

Karin, I don't think you're making a broad statement regarding good health being a sign of a vocation and ill health being a sign of no vocation but some might assume that from reading your post. One's physical health has no bearing, in and of itself, on whether one is called to the religious life. Mother Angelica, for example, had physical problems from very early in life. In fact, poor health is often a sign of sanctity. Padre Pio and St. Francis both received the stigmata, which impacted their overall physical health in a very negative way.

I do not know much about the rules and workings of acceptance but here is an Order that takes able-bodied and those who are fragile in health:

http://www.benedictinesjc.org/aboutUs.html

Also, there are the Franciscan Missionaries of Jesus Crucified. They are based in N.Y. and are striving to become a Secular Institute. They are made up of individuals who are handicapped or suffering in some way. I believe their formation is several years long with vows taken at steps along the way. No website site for them though I don't think...only a few mentions of them here and there with a contact. [of course this is all from a mind that meanders and has poor memories]

That can be summed up in one word: virginity.

Those who have not been "touched" do not "crave" the physical, and therefore are less tempted to sins of the flesh.

Ironic. Most of those who take this attitude follow the Rule of St. Augustine. He's one of the greatest penitents of all time.

Blessings,
Gemma



What's so wrong with "consecrated suffering?" As St. Paul says, "I make up in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ." (Not an exact quote, but in the ballpark).

There are others who work for vocations who are going to be sending referrals to us--referrals of those who wish to consecrate their suffering for the salvation of souls.

If good health were the measure, then the Visitation wouldn't exist. St Francis de Sales founded it SPECIFICALLY for those who were considered frail in the world, and couldn't practice the austerities of the established orders.

Like I said, an order which accepts those in "poor" health have to have the CHARISM (gift to the church and the world) to do so.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

Nothing is wrong with that. I'm merely speaking from my experience with a few orders. Clearly, each community will operate differently based on their charism.

Peace.

It very much does depend on the community. A friend of mine has long felt the desire to live a cloistered life. She has an annulment and a child who is over 18 and not dependent, yet many communities (she has told me of at least 3) have turned her away. Please pray that she may have perseverence in her vocation.

This is an interesting hypothesis. If what you say is true (and I'm not saying it isn't) why wouldn't orders just say that they only permit virgins rather than not admitting annulees? Afterall, it's not just those who have been married who are not virgins.

Now I may have asthma and maybe allergic to all in the category of peanut butter, but I assure you...Mother Angelica is 83 and look at all she has including asthma. Mine was REAL serious, but it was because I was eatin PB everyday, and I MEAN everyday. But now its slim I get one.

I must admit that, as a convert, I am not understanding this clearly. Here is what I always thought [faulty as it may be]

All men and women are gifted with the "workings" of the human body. We have about the same chemicals, hormones and inner machinery. It may be just a guess, but I daresay those entering the religious life have the same--and I prefer to be very delicate here-- feelings as every other single, married, and widowed woman. Our female bodies naturally are in gear to conceive children. There is the right and rhythm to what God has made. Becoming a religious shouldn't [and I don't think it does] make one a piece of wood devoid of emotion. I believe they--the religious- offer their WHOLE person, including their sexuality, to God and for the Glory of God. I would think a religous must accept themselves as they were made body and soul; so they can mature, be formed by their order, and offer their whole self up for the glory of God and their vocation.

As far as the anullment goes...I have looked at a couple of male monastic websites...interestingly they make mention of formerly married males who have come to seek their life. They note these men had a diffiicult time adjusting to the way of life. I do not think it has so much to do with virginity, but rather the experience each order has had with those who have had annullments.

Besides, we would not have St Elizabeth Ann Seton, St Rita, Saint Jeanne de Chantel, etc....if all had to be virgins when entering a convent or founding an order!

~just my ramblings~

Mary-Kathryn

I've managed to totally side track this thread. Sorry Hughey.

Mary-Kathryn, I'm trying not to take this thread totally off the edge so let me just say that I agree with you.

It's cool.

I'm sorry too, hughey!

Now, back to the regularly scheduled program....

Mary-Kathryn

Well I think that's a little different because it's something you can easily manage...i.e. stay away from peanuts!!

This is a topic which is of a lot of interest to me. I have a lot of smaller health problems, some of which are probably treatable and some of which are chronic. (I have mild cerebral palsy and experience complications from that....muscles spasms, joint pain, etc. It's not horrible, but I am habitually in some pain, and this will get worse as I age.)

I am also limited by poor eyesight, and may not be able to drive because of it. This has already presented itself as an impediment to one community.

I know that I need to trust that if I am supposed to be somewhere, God will lead me to that place, but it is hard worrying and wondering sometimes.

+

Thanks for the link to the Benedictines of Jesus Christ Crucified. It is beautiful that all women are not rejected from religious life because they are unable to perform a certain level of physical labour. How beautiful that the value of the "work" of prayer and "little things" is valued in this community! -these "little things" done with "great love" in the consecrated relgious life, we have reason to believe, are VERY pleasing to God! How glorious that these women sharing in the physical sufferings of Christ are allowed to unite spousally to him and that they are not viewed as a "burden" by their community but as those to love and serve as sisters, and family, in Christ!

One of the Poor Clare Colettines in Rockford sought enterence into to the Poor Clares in Ohio (Not sure where...) but was declined because of a health condition, but she entered the Poor Clare Colettines in Rockford, and her medical condition went away! God directs us to where He wants us.

Sounds good in theory, but for for many women, an emotional attachment is much more important than any physical relationship, and much harder to deal with if lost.
So these orders would automatically refuse widows as well?

The nuns have told me that they will take a penitent IF SHE IS MENTALLY STABLE. This also alludes to what I read while working with annulments--a nymphomaniac cannot be a wife because of how her brain works. She would also be disqualified from the religious life (more than likely).

I am aware that for a woman, the emotional attachment is more important--and for the man, it's the physical. I keep wanting to tell hedonists that they're being so totally foolish--the man thinks the girl's in love because she "performs." The woman thinks she's got the man hooked for the same reason. He gets bored with her "performance" and looks elsewhere. She's crushed emotionally. Yada, yada, yada. It's hard to witness to them, too.

One discerner--an annulee--I worked with was having to deal with her emotions--and the physical as well.

The Passionists of Whitesville used to have a brochure which asked a lot of questions. One of those was "How well can you deal with your sexual desires?" The Sacramentines even said in a public newspaper that they discussed such things--as it was part of acknowledging what God had given them, and their freedom to give it up for the sake of the Kingdom.

I think it all boils down to this: particular orders considering individual cases. Every case is dealt with individually. This leaves the discerner with a very long row to hoe--having to go knocking on lots of doors. This is why Nun Runs are so important. Sometimes you can tell if you're supposed to be there just by walking in the front door. At other times you know you're NOT supposed to be there the same way.

Widows are usually welcome in most orders, except for those who place such a high importance on the "v" word. (Like the Nashville Dominicans). I know of one annulee who tried their way of life, and her name was given her as a punishment for her previous life. She left before her final profession, and is extremely bitter about the experience. I know other women have applied there, also, but they won't take annulees, penitents, or widows. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Please don't get me wrong. The Nashville Dominicans and I have enjoyed a good relationship. I'm just stating what I've observed in the last 16 years of knowing them.

I'll stop here.

Blessings,
Gemma

If an order will take a widow, there seems no reason for them not to take someone whose marriage was annulled.

You'd think so, but some orders are kinda strange on the subject. Usually archaic ideas re: annulments.

Which is one reason why, in our SOLC Foundations, we're sort of like Mother Seton, who took everyone else's rejects. (That reminds me, I need to watch "A Time For Miracles" again). I'm a very accepting person just in real life in general, and I take the attitude that a vocation is between God and the soul. If someone is drawn to our communities, I start discerning with them. Amazingly, I've not had to tell anyone to leave, they've left on their own.

Some vocation directors are "green" for lack of a better term. The aforementioned annulee-discerner had worked with one VD for about a year, and then the latter got reassigned. The one who took over for her was as green as they could get. I wouldnt've said some of the stuff she said. The discerner wrote a heart-broken note to the former VD, who wrote back saying she'd have to pray over the response, which, when it came, said in very gentle words that the present VD was "green."

I've given the orders the advice of putting their most charismatic young sister on the "front line" of vocations work, with an older, more seasoned sister as her partner. Have they taken my advice? Dunno.

Blessings,
Gemma

Note about Benedictines of Jesus Crucified: THEY DO NOT EVEN WANT TO LOOK AT PEOPLE WITH CEREBRAL PALSY. Pray for their enlightenment. They assume we are all the same and have psychological issues, etc. It's really sad. Sisters of the Lamb of God take sisters with physical disabilities, but there is no guarentee of being allowed to wear a veil.

Also, any one read Introduction to a Devout Life? I have, but I don't understand how serious to take the idea of performing all of the excercizes (morning, evening, annual, etc.) HELP!

I am really surprised those Benedictines will not accept those with CP. Seems strange that they would not. A disability is a disability. Wow, it is so difficult sometimes, but I guess that is the cross we must bear. Never give up your search.
what do you mean by you might not get to wear a veil as a sister of the Lamb of God?

Sanctafamilia, write a courteous letter to the Benedictines of Jesus Crucified explaining how CP differs from person to person. I spend a lot of my time correcting misconceptions about my own disabilities (many people think of 'Rainman' as soon as they hear the word autism) and I think this work is vitally important.

I'm a little nervous about disclosing my dyspraxia to the Carmelites. I think dyspraxia will cause more problems than the autistic spectrum disorder, at least in a cloistered environment. I have special tools to help me cope and I know how to live with this, but I'm frightened that the sisters may not listen. I've decided to speak to them about it only when I'm in the monastery for my live-in. That way they will have to let me stay for my allotted two weeks and they will be able to see that I can manage, given the things I need.

this is all really enlightening...keep talking!!!

I agree, very enligtening, and to note, I understand some disorders/disabilities probably could not be accepted in religious life or certain communities (like cloistered or some missions) but there are also degrees to disabilities as others have talked about Cerebral Palsy, My sister has CP (although she's not considering religious life) but she went through alot of extensive surgeries in her childhood and at one time she had alot of difficult and could hardly walk, but now thanks be to god for all the good doctors, she has just a slight limp and only thing is she can't run as fast as others, but other than that she can do just about anything and her mind is haha often times sharper than mine, so I think orders should look at the individual case, as for annulments again I think that should be an individual thing, perhaps those that have been married and know the pleasures of the flesh vs. those of us who are virgins, make an even great sacrifice by giving their struggles to our lord, of course if one truly has a mental illness that causes problems with sexuality, then that needs to certainly be considered, but as My sisters often say "You don't know the inside, only god knows for sure, so we give them a try" and they often will give a person a serious time of discernment and/or try the observer program and if ti's not a true call god will reveal it in some way.

God Bless You!

Just a side note here, which may have already been addressed. These regulations are applied by the PCPA community in Portsmouth, according to Mrs. Deb (HisChild's mom). However, these are not the regulations in all PCPA communities.



Answering my dad's question to some extent....

Some communities have the "privilege" of having a community which not only takes the vows, but also consecrates their virginity, and therefore cannot allow widows or women with annulled marriages. Other communities would only reject a non-virgin if she had been affected from her relationships in a way that would cause her to be unsuitable (or unable) to live the vow of chastity, at least not yet. Some communities, however, do not even address this issue before accepting a candidate. So, as others have said, it definitely depends on the community.

What I'm interested in is whether a community would allow me a longer-than-standard bed and things like that, because if I had to sleep in a "normal" bed I WILL be truly disabled within two years. People tend to think a longer bed is a luxury, because to them it is. To me, it's sheer necessity.

I guess I'll have to take this up with the vd of the communities I'm looking at (I already know the Carmelites DCJ don't make a problem of it... if only I were a Carmelite!)

Gemma, I'm sorry but I don't know where you got this explanation for those communities who don't except women with annulments. I've never heard of this! In reality it is more often the case that a woman who applies is not a virgin, not because of a marriage (or attempted marriage) but because of the way she lived before she "converted".

I don't know of any Dominican Monastery (which follow the rule of St. Augustine) that doesn't consider women with annulments. In fact, I believe most monastic/contemplative orders do.

HOWEVER, if a community is more cautious it is because there WAS an attempted marriage and there are deep wounds from this experience. This experience will "color" her discernment and her life with the community, which let me tell you, can sometimes feel like marrying 17 other people!

Dominicans have never made the consecration of virgins and have never put that much emphasis on this. The emphasis is on spiritual virginity.

Just to let you all know, I just spoke with a consecrated virgin and she said that a disability is never an impediment to that way of life. You do need to support yourself through Disability or some other means, but at least there is some hope out there for us if we discern that religious life isn't going to work for us.

I have a friend who was discerning cloistered life. She was married and has a child. She has had an annullment for the past two years. One community seemed to imply (I don't have a direct quote from her or the larger context in which the conversation took place), that even though her child was no longer a legal dependant, and her marriage was annulled, she would still not be accepted on the grounds that she was not a physical (genital) virgin. I do not want to judge this community, but I do know that my friend took this news as harsh and painful to absorb.

So, bottom line: There's way more to this story than I know (and more than what my friend experienced in her conversation with a representative of this community). But it does leave me reflecting about how religious life calls us to live a life of "virginity" that is all-encompassing, and not just about our sexuality availability.

I'm sorry your friend has this experience! We don't consider women who have children because we feel that a mother is always a mother and her children should not be deprived of her in their lives. We had experience of having sisters who had been married and had children and the children always found it difficult that mom couldn't be home for weddings, baptisms, baby sitting, etc. This is just our experience. There ARE many holy, happy, moms who are sisters/nuns out there. Again,each community needs to discern for themselves.

We have to be careful not to confuse chastity with virginity nor underestimate the value of virginity as an objectively "higher good". We also have to be careful not to confuse virginity with religious vows. Not easy.

First, all, no matter what their state in life are called to be chaste. Second, physical virginity in and of itself is simply the absence of sexual intercourse. However, virginity for the SAKE OF THE KINGDOM or for God alone is a higher good than marriage because it's end is God alone. Virginity is a sign of life in heaven where there will be no marriage or giving in marriage.

Sins against chastity and virginity are in the order of temperance and so St. Thomas doesn't get too excited about them. Sins against charity and justice are more serious.

One can lose physical virginity but not lose that virginity of the spirit which is more important. Conversely, one can be a physical virgin and give oneself to the things of the world that take us from God.

The loss of physical virginity through sexual intercourse does have an ontological effect on a woman (in her being). She has given herself to someone in a temporary way and we woman are made to give ourselves to another in fidelity. It is often difficult for a woman, even after she has been forgiven by God to not still feel guilty. Some of this guilt can be healthy but the important thing is to move on and see this as a source of experiencing God's merciful love. How can we truly experience God's loving kindness and forgiveness if we have nothing of which to be forgiven? This experience can be an entryway for a woman to more totally give herself to God because she has experienced her weakness and need for Him to do all things for her. So, it can be a source of true joy.

Virginity is an beautiful gift of grace, no doubt about it but it's got to kept in it's proper place. In religious life it is OBEDIENCE that is more important. In living obedience we are configured and conformed to Christ's Redemptive Love. We become one with our Spouse in saving work. We become like Him in the most perfect way possible because he was obedient to the Father. "I come to do your will, O God".

The Vatican II constitution on religious life, unfortunately changed the enumeration of the vows to Chastity, poverty and obedience whereas we Dominicans, along with the ancient orders say Obedience, poverty and chastity. In fact we only profess obedience because it is obedience to a whole way of life according to our constitutions. Included in this is the vows of obedience, poverty and chastity.

I hope this helps. I'm sorry I went on for so long! You can see that my classes are often long winded!

God bless you!