I thought since the several of the topics have been on Carmel these days, and our dear Teresa de Jesus series is on EWTN, that I would share some of my experience visiting the Discalced Carmelites and what I have heard of the two different Constitutions for the nuns.


My Experience:

When I first was thinking of Carmel, I knew I wanted a traditional place. I searched online and saw a few with very beautiful old monasteries and in full habit, and visited, but felt I had to keep searching.

A friend gave me a list a very good priest had made up of convents he recommends - both active and contemplative. There was one OCD Carmel on there which I had never heard of, so I decided to write and eventually made a visit after corresponding with them. The Reverend Mother there was so warm and welcoming, and really emanated a spirit of prayer and courtesy.

Upon visiting this Carmel, I was very impressed with their spirit. The enclosure was much stricter than other places, and there were double grills in the parlor and between the choir and public chapel. The extern sisters would address the priest there, Reverend Father, and there seemed to be many other customs as well. There was certainly a spirit of calm and order about the place. I met the whole community in the parlor, and there were so many, and many young ones! They were incredibly joyful!

It was from visiting this Carmel that I first learned of the 2 different Constitutions of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns.


Early History of Difficulties with the Constitutions:

Since the early years of the Discalced Carmelites after the death of St. Teresa, there have been some difficulties and disunity in the order. As can be seen in the life of Ven. Ann of Jesus, a nun with St. Teresa in the first Discalced Carmel of St. Joseph in Avila, who founded the first OCD Carmel in France - some of the nuns from the beginning were quite adamant about keeping the original Constitutions of 1581 written by St. Teresa herself, with her spiritual director Fr. Jerome Gratian.

A similar situation can also be found in the life of another contemporary of St. Teresa, Sr. Maria de San Jose Salazar.

On her deathbed, St. Teresa exhorted her sisters thus (these were her last words to them):

"My daughters and my ladies,
for the love of God I beg that you will take great care
with the keeping of the Rule and Constitutions,
for if you keep them as faithfully as you ought to,
no other miracle will be needed for your canonization."


Vatican II and the renewal of religious life:

The Second Vatican Counsel called for the renewal of religious life and an update in the Constitutions of the different orders. The renewal process for the Discalced Carmelite Nuns took almost 30 years, longer by far, than any other order.

The Discalced Carmelite Friars, generally speaking, were more taken up in the “spirit of Vatican II” (the liberal/false spirit of those times, not the actual documents and teachings of the Council) Several of the communities of the nuns were concerned about this, and about their influence on the nuns. The friars are the spiritual head of the Order.

A number of Carmels, particulary in Spain, sought help and counsel from various priests & bishops, including Jesuits and priests of Opus Dei. They were a minority of all the Carmels in the world, but they were strong. Madre Maravillas of Jesus, who as of May 4, 2003, is St. Maravillas of Jesus, was a chief figure in this and strove hard to see that her Order was not hurt by this renewal - that the renewed Constitutions would keep the strict enclosure and practices called for by St. Teresa.

"Let them beware, for the devil through very small things,
drills holes through which very large things enter.
May it not happen that those who are to come say:
'These things are not important; don't go to extremes.'
Oh, my daughters, everything that helps us advance is important!"

St. Teresa of Jesus
Foundations, ch.29, 32

Since the late 1970s many laxities had been introduced into the Order. While the Friars were working with the nuns on drafting the new Constitutions, this minority group was working with the support of priests and bishops, to preserve the original Constitutions of St. Teresa, updated according to the present Code of Canon Law and the directives of Vatican II.

A momentous event took place in 1985, when John Paul II, ordered a Vatican Office to rewrite the Constitutions of the OCD nuns. “The new constitution will scrap some post-Vatican II reforms under which the sisters have lived since the late 1970s.” (Pope John Paul II: the first 20 years) This was to safeguard both fidelity to the rule of St. Teresa and unity in the Order.

John Paul II approved the work of the minority of Carmels which desired to keep the old Constitutions by renewing them according to the directives of Vatican II. On December 8, 1990, the updated 1581 Constitutions were approved and promulgated by John Paul II. The following year, the new Constitutions for the nuns written by the Discalced Carmelite Order were also approved promulgated by John Paul II. Thus two sets of Constitutions for the Discalced Carmelite Nuns were approved, and the individual Carmels were given a choice on which ones they would follow. (note: Carmels still have a choice, and can request to change over, as one of the Reverend Mothers told me)

Under the 1990 Constitutions, the nuns are directly under the jurisdiction of the Holy See. Under the 1991 Constitutions, the nuns are under the jurisdiction of the Discalced Carmelite Father General, and associated with the friars. St. Teresa had wanted the Order to be united. But she also wanted a strict rule and enclosure for her nuns set out in the Constitutions of 1581.

The majority of Carmels chose the 1991 Constitutions, and a few were given permission to follow the 1990's in all ways, except that they would be under the jurisdiction of the OCD Father General. I believe it's 18 out of the 60something OCD Carmels in the US that are under the 1990 Constitution currently. I know of one that switched over from the 1991s to the 1990s several years ago, but there may also be others that have done this over the years. Here is a page with the addresses of all the Discalced Carmelite Nuns in the US.

There is an article on this on the Baltimore Carmel's website, The Fractured Face of Carmel. It is definitely on the side of the newer Constitutions. It seems to be arguing that this group of Carmels that were working to keep the original Constitutions were acting out of obedience. However, Madre Maravillas is now a saint, and the Holy Father approved of what they were doing, and approved their Constitutions. Therefore, although it seems to have the history correct, I would not trust everything argued in this article on the Baltimore Carmel's website. I particularly do not appreciate its questioning of the Holy See's intervention in the renewal process.


Associations & Meetings:

The Church has recommended the forming of Federations/Associations among cloistered contemplative communities in order to provide mutual support in areas such as financial needs and formation. They can have meetings outside the enclosure, which would not be against the observance of Papal Enclosure, but this not required.

"The decision to belong or not to such bodies depends on each community, whose freedom must be respected." (Verbi Sponsa, Part IV)

For the OCD nuns, many of the Carmels were opposed to the idea of having meetings outside the enclosure, as this is not according to the way of life handed down to them from St. Teresa. It was the express wish of St. Teresa that her nuns observe strict enclosure.
This was one of the major tensions that caused the struggle and split regarding the 2 different Constitutions. The 1990 Constitutions do not allow the nuns to go our for association meetings, while the 1991s do.

In Verbi Sponsa, it also speaks on the autonomy of individual monasteries, which must be respected. It's a couple paragraphs before Part IV on Associations.

"The Church recognizes every monastery “sui iuris” as possessing legitimate juridical autonomy of life and government in order that it may have its own discipline and be capable of preserving intact its own heritage.

Autonomy favours stability of life and the internal unity of every community, and guarantees the best conditions for the exercise of contemplation."

There are a couple associations of Carmels I know of that do not have meetings outside the enclosure, namely St. Joseph's Association (comprised of both 1990 & 1991 Carmels) & Los Palomarcitos de la Virgen, an international association (from which I took all my St. Teresa quotes, as they are very relevant). The latter include the ones given special permission to follow the 1990s in all ways, except to be under the OCD Father General.

Some Carmels under both the 1990 & 1991s opted out of joining an association altogether, which they are free to do - to name a few, Iron Mountain, Lake Elmo, Ada Parnell & Denmark (all Carmels with great reputations for being solid and traditional)

There are 3 other associations of OCD nuns in the US that do have meetings outside the enclosure (I believe the norm is usually, once every 3 years). The Carmelite Communities Associated are generally not at all traditional Carmels. The Association of Mary, Queen of Carmel look good from viewing their website. Then the St. Teresa Association is similar to this one, but with less communities - these include St. Louis and Port Tobacco. All the Carmels in these 3 associations are under the 1991 Constitutions.


End Notes:

After learning of the different Constitutions, and before realizing the Baltimore Carmel's site has a list, I went to my local Carmel of Des Plaines, under the 1990s, to ask for a list of the US Carmels under these Constitutions. I'll post my list too, just in case there are any places missed on either. There is also a list on Baltimore Carmel's site of all the autonomous/non-associated Carmels.

One thing I have heard of the 1991 Constitutions, is that they allow more flexibly in the way of life, which can be both good or not so good. For example, the Port Tobacco Carmel has a different way of life than traditional Carmels, with hermitages for each professed nun instead of one hermitage for the whole community wherein each has a hermit day every month or so.

But I have also heard it said that since the 1991s do not have all the specifics of the 1990s, and the Reverend Mother does not have as much say, a few sisters with different ideas could change the course of a community over time. St. Teresa specifically wanted the Mother Prioress of her Carmels to have the main role in the decision making and spiritual direction of the community.

Another difference in Carmels under the different Constitutions is in the customs they observe. For example, among the many little customs that were practiced since the earliest days of the OCD nuns, one was that during recreation, a sister was in charge of sounding a little clapper so that everyone would pause and remember the presence of God. She would say something like, "Let us remember we are in the presence of God." Many Carmels do not practice this anymore, but I believe most, if not all, of the 1990s do.

I was once talking to a good OCD friar about all of this regarding the Constitutions, and he understood very well my position on preferring the 1990 Carmels. He recommended, however, a Carmel that was in the process of building a new monastery in Denmark, WI that is very traditional and does not go out for meetings. I have also heard the Carmel in Ada Parnell, MI is supposed to be very good too.

The Georgetown, CA Carmel is one that's in the association, Los Palomarcitos de la Virgen. I recommend reading about it. They're also part of St. Joseph's Association. They look wonderful!

However, although I prefer the 1990 Carmels because they follow the original Constitutions, I have also heard that many of the Carmels under the 1991 Constitutions can be great too! I do not mean to say negative things about any of them. With discerning Carmel and finding the right community, people always say each Carmel is different and has quite a unique spirit. And it is not necessarily that every 1990 Carmel is great. I haven't heard of any that are not, but as with any religious order, everything really depends on the particular community.

But I truly know of a few cases of young women who left Carmels, even that seem very traditional from the outside, and have found their home in a 1990 Carmel, one currently in the process. She was not aware of the differences in the 2 different Constitutions before. So I do really think it's important that those discerning Carmel be aware of the different Constitutions, which was my aim in starting this thread.

God bless all of you in your discernment!

My website has the U.S. Carmels listed on their own page, under the headings of the respective constitutions. Go to "Other Religious Communities" on the navigation; then choose the US cloisters. On the "women's communities" page, choose the Discalced Carmelites. Everyone is listed under their respective constitutions.

http://cloisters.tripod.com/

In a nutshell, the 1991 Constitutions Carmels are affiliated with the friars. The 1990s are not, but answer directly to the Holy See. Georgetown answers directly to the Master General of the OCDs.

Blessings,
Gemma

Thanks, Gemma! You have a wonderful and incredibly informative site!

A couple thoughts I wanted to add - I really did like the sisters at the St. Louis Carmel, and thought it was pretty neat that they could have so much adoration. Also for Port Tobacco, they look like a very good community from their website. I think it's great how they are able to have individual hermitages, as St. Teresa wanted her communities to be like the hermits who began the Carmelite order on Mount Carmel.

Other thoughts - for each Carmel, St. Teresa wanted 21 to be the limit (which I believe all of them keep), so they would stay small communities, like little families.

As it says on Gemma's site, Valparaiso, Nebraska, is a special "Ecclesia Dei" Carmel, which has the Tridentine Mass daily, and Divine Office. The last article I read on them I believe said there are 19 there now.

Buffalo, NY, Alexandria, SD, & Brooklyn, NY have the Tridentine Latin Divine Office and the Novus Ordo Mass.


Next time I'm online, I will post the list of the Carmelites under the 1990's. In St. Joseph's Association, some are 1990's and some are 1991's. Then there are other 1990's & 91's not in any association.

Blessings to all on the Lord's day!


Margaret Clare

Wow!! How informative!! Thank you!!

I swear Buffalo has the Latin office according to the revised rite?!

But either way they sound beautiful.

I'd written the Port Tobacco Carmel for many months, although I never visited. They seemed like such a wonderful community. And I LOVED the idea of the individual hermitages. It was something that drew me pretty strongly. I love the whole Carmelite spirituality. . .being alone with the Alone. . .so wonderful in its simplicity. But yes, there are so many differences within the communities. I'd written several of the communities during my discernment. I think if I could share any of my experiences with them, in a general way, I'd have to say, that if anyone is considering cloistered Carmelite life, be aware that each of the communities is unique, and if one is 'turned off', for lack of a better phrase, by any community, recognize that each are in fact different, even if, on the surface, there seems to be many similarities.

As for me? At this time, I'm returning to the life of a secular Carmelite, God willing.

God bless you.

Oh hey Brendan, actually I'm sure you probably know a lot more on the particulars of the Buffalo Carmel. I thought it was the Tridentine Office because the office books they use looked so old. But I did not know all the particulars at the time, and am not sure now. Maybe they do have the Latin Office according to the revised rite. If so, then so does Alexandria and Brooklyn, as they are Buffalo's foundations. Maybe you could ask the externs there.

Either way, it is sooo beautiful! Like angels singing

If anyone wants Carmelite spirituality, perpetual adoration, and individual hermitages, please check out our Carmelite Nuns of Perpetual Adoration. Their monastery will be on the Charterhouse floorplan with individual hermitages.

http://cloisters.tripod.com/carmelites/

Blessings,
Gemma

Praised be Jesus Christ! I'm sorry I didn't get the Carmels with the 1990's up here sooner. I have to run now, but I thought I would just list the places for now, in case anyone has been patiently waiting. Then next time, I will post the addresses, and any notes on them I might know.

Discalced Carmelite Monasteries under the 1990 Constitutions:

Alexandria, SD
Brooklyn, NY
Buffalo, NY
Dallas, TX
Erie, PA
Flemington, NJ
Iron Mountain, MI
Jefferson City, MO
Kensington, CA
Lake Elmo, MN
Louisville, KY
Mobile, AL
Pittsford, NY (Schenectady, NY recently joined them)
Traverse City, MI
Valparaiso, NE

I thought I would post now a few more thoughts I wanted to add to this thread and the addresses of these houses, even though they are all here - OCD nuns in US, to have them all in one place.

First, I think I wrote something in favor of the 1990's that if a few sisters had different ideas in the communities of the 1991's it could change the direction of the community over time but, the greater concern for the 1990's was definitely not so much the sisters within the communities, but the influence the some of the more liberal friars could have on the nuns if they were under them. I think I said this pretty well before though.

This is great advice - yes, they (the OCD nuns) would always say each of the Carmels is totally unique.

I just wanted to add that the Ada Parnell, Mich. Carmel, which is under the 1991 Constitutions, is still supposed to be very very good. They are the first foundation from Mexico and many great Carmels came from there.

It was Mother Elias from Mexico who first came to the Grand Rapids Carmel (later moved to Ada Parnell). She was a great mystic and is said to have suffered much for all the foundations that would come from this Carmel. Some of their foundations that I know of, which all follow the 1990's, are Buffalo, NY, Schenectady, NY (the 12 from there joined with the 1990 Pittsford, NY Carmel), Traverse City & Iron Mountain, MI.

I just realized that this list is missing Des Plaines, IL which I am 100% sure follow the 1990 Constitutions. That's because I got this list on a piece of paper from them of all the other monasteries of Discalced Carmelites that have the 1990's.

So Des Plaines, IL is added to this list. So that makes 16 out of the 60 something OCD Carmels in the US, that follow the 1990 Constitutions - a pretty great minority.

60 something, can you believe that? I just counted them on the OCD nuns site. I counted 66, but I could be off. That's a lot of monasteries. We have a pretty big country though. :j

Here's the list again with a few links: (the first 3 have the full Divine Office in Latin)

Alexandria, SD
Brooklyn, NY
Buffalo, NY
Dallas, TX
Des Plaines, IL
Erie, PA
Flemington, NJ
Iron Mountain, MI
Jefferson City, MO
Kensington, CA
Lake Elmo, MN
Louisville, KY
Mobile, AL
Pittsford, NY (Schenectady, NY recently joined them)
Traverse City, MI
Valparaiso, NE (Indult Latin Mass & Office)

I think Georgetown, CA follows the 1990's in all ways but that they are under the General Superior of the Carmelite Order (1991's) rather than directly to the Holy Father (1990's) - Gemma told me this.

I'm sure other 1991 Carmels, along with Ada Parnell, are good too, but I don't know of them. The only other one I heard that was very good was a new one in Denmark, WI

Also, I'm assuming all the 1990s are great, but you'd really have to visit each one and speak with the Mother to really know and find out the unique spirit of each Carmel. But generally, the 1990s are supposed to be the best for orthodoxy and faithfulness to the charism and the strict enclosure.

There was one. ..I can't recall where, I think it was in Houston, Minnesota that a Carmelite sister told me was NOT good. . .it was the only one she didn't recommend in the entire country. (There are some discerners who feel called to strict enclosure and some that do not, so she didn't consider those things, but only if the community was 'solid'. ) If I remember for sure, I'll add it. She said they were relatively new and there were some 'weird happenings' going on there.

Pax.

I just wanted to be sure to give a link here to the other thread, The Order of Mt. Carmel, as it has some posts I didn't re-post in this one - in case anyone is searching for Carmelites on the web, and comes here.



Reposting this from Order of Mt. Carmel thread:

I visited/corresponded with 5 of the Carmels on this list. First, Des Plaines, which is right near me, which is great - highly recommended. They do not come from the list of all the foundations from Mexico, but from foundations from Europe - so they have different customs and are a little more simple than the Spanish custom Carmels.
(I like both traditions)

The next was Iron Mountain, MI - foundation from Grand Rapids in 1951 - Spanish traditions - wonderful community!!! just about full now.

The next, Buffalo, NY - incredible, Latin chant, very traditional. Then Schenectady, NY - came also from Grand Rapids Mexican Carmel later than Buffalo, wonderful community (now has merged with another Carmel in Pittsford, NY)

Finally Lake Elmo, MN, which I didn't visit, but spoke a few times with Mother Rose there. They are supposed to be an exceptionally great community also. I believe it was Mother Miriam who also recommended this place. They have a lot of land and are in a very very quiet area. They also have an awesome Carmelite order right near them, the Hermits of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who come for the Sacraments and give them spiritual direction and retreats.

They have a very very plain monastery, which Mother Rose particulary thought it was important that I know, as some may find it depressing there, she said, after a time. They are from the European foundations with the simple customs like Des Plaines. She sent me pictures in the mail. Their chapel has cement walls, and truly is incredibly plain. But this for them is a sign of their poverty, and also their simplicity in all things including the material.

Mother Rose asked me if I really liked the monastic feel of Buffalo, which greatly contrasts their monastery - and I definitely did. It is beautiful. So she recommended I go there then. But something really great about Lake Elmo is that they are definitely in a silent area and have a good amount of land which they own around them - which helps protect the silence.

I thought I would post St. Maravillas' picture here. Formerly known as Madre Maravillas, she is the Spanish Discalced Carmelite who worked hard to see the old Constitutions of the OCD nuns kept, approved in 1990. Here is a portrait of her as a young Carmelite.

Another way to find great Carmels, besides looking only at ones with the 1990 Constituations, would be the ones in St. Joseph's Association (1990 & 1991's, living out a traditional interpretation of the Rule)

also the Carmel in Des Plaines IL (1990) told me Terre Haute (1991) is very good

I visited the Carmel in St. Louis, MO. It is a beautiful old monastery. They are part of St. Teresa's Association (1991's) which does have meetings outside the monastery every 3 years or so. I believe only a couple of the nuns from each monastery goes each time. But still they were a great community - different than the 1990 Carmels in certain things though.

The adoration is really a unique thing about their Carmel. I'm pretty sure it was the bishop of St. Louis who asked them if they would slightly change their way of life to fit in adoration thoroughout the day, where the public could also come and adore on the other side of the cloister. It is an incredibly beautiful old chapel.

Other differences ... They are allowed to watch some religious programs or tapes on TV, while the 1990s definitely are not. In Buffalo, the only time they could ever watch a tiny bit of TV would be for something like the installation of a new Holy Father. But for anything else, it is strictly prohibited.
I really like the strict fidelity to a traditional interpretation of the Rule of the 1990 Carmels (and some of the 1991s), but some of the others can be great too.

But again, guys, please forgive me, I don't mean to say anything negative about these sisters. I visited the Carmel in St. Louis that is under the 1991's in St. Teresa's Association who occasionally go out for meetings (2 or 3 at a time though, I believe) and those sisters were really nice and in the full habit. But again, I just think it's important for those discerning Carmel to be aware of this, as I had no idea until one of the Reverend Mothers explained it to me. But again, she did say that many of the 1991's are still great.

Interesting topic, I could be wrong about this but I have talked to a couple of Mother Superiors at various Carmelite monasteries who where actually against associations. One of the main objections was that they don't get alot accomplished at the association meetings and also the time, energy and money to travel to the various monasteries for a meeting. Don't get me wrong associations can be helpful at times but one must look at the other side as well.

Also I know a few people mentioned a couple of monasteries which are actually good but there were 2 mentioned that if one where looking for a more traditional place not to look there. One is considered a "rich monastery" and the second one is doing something that isn't the "norm". I have heard this from several Mother Superiors so my sources are credible. Just my ten cents

you brought up a interesting side topic, are some communities a little too rich living? I am often distressed at how fine some monastreries are. I am not sure how that can possibly be keeping with the vow of poverty.
Now, I believe the convent should be warm, and have some creature comforts, but some are rather opulent.
Very interesting to me, what are your thoughts?
AliceMary

There are similar reasons for which OLAM is not part of the PCPA association. I have heard, marieteresa, the same complaints about Carmelite associations. They don't seem to always be beneficial, although I am sure there are good situations in which they are

Just to weigh in on the whole association/meeting thing. First, the Holy See encourages federations/associations (same thing, different name). Recently 9 of our Dominican monasteries in the US were approved as the Association of the monasteries of the Nuns of the Order of Preachers in the USA. Originally, all our monasteries were connected under a losely formed "conference" but with Verbi Sponsa we had to change what we had been doing for over 25 years.

Our experience has been that meetings among the monasteries have been extremely beneficial but again it could be the structure and content of our meetings. We have a novice mistress meeting yearly and the temp professed have a "theological formation program for 4 years for 2 weeks. Every 4 years we have a general assembly and every 4 years the prioresses meet.

Each meeting is structure around theological lectures on a specific theme and the sharings are based on these lectures. All are taped and brought home to the monasteries who listen and have chapter discussions on them. These meetings have helped the monasteries come together to have a coherent vision of formation rich in the Dominican tradition. For example, the next assembly in 2008 will be on our life of Liturgical prayer.

Poor Clares I know have told me that they have too many meetings and not much gets accomplished. We're always amazed at how much DOES get accomplished at our meetings and how it strengthens the bonds between our monasteries. We are truly Sisters!

Although Dominican monasteries can seem different in regard to externals (mainly the veil; we all wear the habit) we are united in our vision and understanding of what the vocation of the Dominican contemplative is in the Order and the Church. We are united under ONE constitution and a theology that is true to the Church.

Perhaps meetings have had such a positive effect on our monasteries is because the basic rule we live is that of St. Augustine which tells us to live in "one mind and heart in God". That is the basis for our coming together: to grow in our love of God and be united in Him.

Alice, you would be happy to see that our monastery is not opulent! It is small, very simple and nothing fancy! Only our choir is really beautiful!

Thanks Sr. Mary Catherine for weighing in on the matter....I have a question though. Is it expensive to send so many sisters to the various meetings? Also how do the smaller communities deal with the loss of manpower (sorry nunpower) when the professed have to attend meetings and what not.

Thank you Sr. Catherine. Your Chapel and Choir are indeed simple in design, and in my opnion simply beautiful. Dominicans just seem to do it right! But then, I am very much prejudiced in this!

Well, it is an expense but for Dominicans the most important expenses are for our theological, spiritual and intellectual formation.
The Assembly is only every 4 years and usually only 2 nuns go. The prioress meeting only the prioress goes (and that every 4 years), the novice mistress, only the novice mistress.

Because most of the monasteries are on the east coast most of the nuns drive to the meeting and often go first to another monastery to go together. Or they might fly to one monastery and drive the rest of the way with that monastery. The monasteries are pretty creative about it and getting good deals. Sometimes it means a flight at an inconvenient time or with extra stops but it's OK.

When a Sisters is absent she puts up a sheet with her charges and within 5 minutes everyone has taken one of them for her. It is a sacrifice but it's only for a short time and we realize that we will all benefit from the meeting.

That is so sweet. I guess a monastery really is a "school of love"

"When a Sisters is absent she puts up a sheet with her charges and within 5 minutes everyone has taken one of them for her. It is a sacrifice but it's only for a short time and we realize that we will all benefit from the meeting."






How I wish we had the same attitude at my job. What a better world it would be if we all would help each other out.

I almost mentioned this in my post! I was going to say that the Dominicans seem to have exteremely beneficial federation meetings And you're right, Poor Clares do have a tendency not to hone their attention in on really pertinent subjects at their federation meetings... which is why some communities have opted out of the federation.

Hopefully in coming years this will not be the case



I had a feeling it was the fact that Dominican contemplatives never split into branches which helps you to keep the same focus. Obviously God has other plans for different Orders (splitting into branches), but this probably does make a difference in simplifying the vision of the contemplative branch of the Order.

Yep, this is what this thread is all about. Pretty much all the Carmels I visited were against the associations/federations, except for the St. Joseph's Association, which does not have meetings. But yeah, that's the main issue that the split was really about. Because from the beginning St. Teresa wanted her Carmels to have strict enclosure. They worked very hard to have the old constitutions kept, especially many of the Spanish Carmels with St. Maravillas, and the Holy Father approved them in 1990.

But still, many under the 1991 Constitutions have also decided to not join a federation/association, like Ada Parnell, MI, which is supposed to be a great Carmel! But I'd say the main difference between the 2 are that the 1990's answer directly to the Holy Father, and the 1991's to the Father General of the Discalced Carmelite Order. And one of the main issues the 1990's had was the insecurity of being under the OCD Friars, as many had become liberal, and because their wanting them to form federations and have meetings.

But I think it's great the contemplative Dominicans greatly benefit from federation meetings, don't get me wrong. That's awesome how they are all under ONE Constitution, and are very united in a common goal. Each order is different really.

I absolutely love the Srs of Bethlehem, who are incredibly orthodox and faithfully living the contemplative vocation, and they do have general chapter meetings, with some of the Superiors I believe and the Mother Prioress, who will meet at one of the monasteries I believe. And then they have the annual retreat at Les Montsvoirons for discerners and the sisters, of which one or two from each monastery is invited to attend each year (though it's up to them if they want to go). But for the OCD nuns, many really opposed going out for meetings, because it wasn't what St. Teresa intended for her Carmels, and the Holy Father recognized this and approved their old constitutions.

Yes, I have heard this too. I think one of these would be the Carmelites in St. Louis, as their bishop asked them to put daily adoration in their schedule, which actually isn't part of the charism of the Discalced Carmelites. I certainly don't really think this change to the traditional Carmelite horarium is really a bad thing, personally - I mean it's adoration of Blessed Sacrament. But actually, this Carmel is not as traditional in a few other ways also, though they wear the full habit. But really, I don't know for certain, as I've never lived as a Carmelite nun there. But in little things that I mentioned before, and I think they do not observe the silence as strictly. I remember the Novice Mistress telling me that if they are both working in the kitchen for instance, they will talk, whereas a Carmel like Buffalo is much different. I'd say it's best to ask other good Carmels first about this, and then make a visit yourself, if any one believes God may be calling them to this Carmel.

I'm not sure which Carmel is considered a rich Carmel though. Hopefully, it isn't one that is under the 1990's .. but I don't know. Maybe was it possibly the Des Plaines Carmel .. I have visited there several times, and it is very plain and stark. But I know a very very rich lady did enter there as a widow, so maybe this is why they are considered rich, I don't know. But all the Carmels I visited always had good things to say about Des Plaines, that they are really living the charism well. When I talked on the phone with Mother Rose in Lake Elmo, and she was telling me that their Carmel is very plain, she said we are very similar to Des Plaines, in being plain - so I'm not sure it would be Des Plaines ...

I am not really sure what a 'rich' convent would be considered, I have never really heard of that, all though I was a little surprised to see how many convents have things like TV's and stuff. But

Iam just wondering what you guys think about some Carmels being advised against using the internet by priests and confessors. I don't know if there is a trend following this (meaning most of the Carmels using the 1990 and 91 constitutions dont have internet) Just wondering what you guys think.

Also there is a such thing as a "rich" convent...If a convent can afford a 5 star chef for example It might be a rich convent. ok Iam going to get off my soap box now.

I actually didn't know any of the Poor Clares had federation meetings. I sort of always thought they couldn't because they do have the solemn vow of enclosure, while I know the Carmelites do not have that vow in particular.

Which Poor Clare federation has meetings? Does the PCCs Federation of Mary Immaculate have federation meetings?

Yes, they do every year and they were the first federation formed in the US, way back in the '50's.

Papal Enclosure is observed according to the norms of the Holy See and this includes egress for reasons such as Federation meetings. Verbi Sponsa also legislates for common novitiate formation among the same monasteries of an Order, etc.

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I do remember reading something about federations in Verbi Sponsa, so I'll have to read it again. I just had the idea that Poor Clares didn't have meetings outside the enclosure. Thanks for clarifying this. I hope their meetings become more fruitful, like the Dominicans.


Do you know if Mother Angelica's PCPAs go out for annual meetings? Also, do you know about the Federation of Mary Immaculate of the PCCs. I will ask the ones here in Lemont, too.

The Hanceville PCPA's don't go out for meetings.

But I wanted to ask forgiveness for saying anything negative about the St. Louis Carmel , because it really is a lovely place and the sisters were so incredibly nice in welcoming me there. Their monastery is beautiful too. I am just an outsider, so I really don't know. Again, I would ask other good Carmels and go there for yourself.

Here I am going to post something I said in the Britain's Youngest Carmelite thread, here:

But, please forgive me, I could be off about this. Maybe it is just that they are allowed to talk to each other when needed to help in work, for example. Whereas I remember in Buffalo it was really very strict about this. Another sister was trying to tell me that confessions are now being heard, and tried with a few hand signals, and then went to the bookshelf to show me a book, and then I understood what she was saying. But I think this is really a good thing .. They are of course allowed to say something in different instances outside recreation .. like in formation and different things ..

I'd say it'd be a good idea for those Carmels being advised against using the internet to follow their advice. I think it's nice when a community has a website though, or is featured on the IRL site, so people can see the monastery and read about them, for discernment.

But I'm really of the opinion that a lot of times the old fashioned way of writing & calling, and visiting the place, is the way to go. It's nice to be able to see a few pictures on the web though, if you're considering a far away place ..

Yes, the Federation of Mary Immaculate is the first federation formed in the US. You can read about their first meeting in "No Strange God's Before Me" by Mother Mary Francis (back in the late '50s). They have a yearly meeting at their different monasteries and elect a federal prioress.

A Federation/Association is free to determine the extent of participation, meetings, etc. Again, not only are federations encouraged by the Holy See but Verbi Sponsa spells out rather clearly that Federation meetings for the purpose of mutual aid and theological formation of the member monasteries is not contrary to enclosure. Enclosure is not an end but a means.

Actually, with email and internet a lot more can be done without leaving the enclosure than before we had this technology. It really has helped the spirit and living of enclosure.

I believe silence is a good thing, so not to disturb the other sisters, but I think being so strict about it is a little ridiculous. Not to be able to tell you it was time for confession, and doing that pantomine thing is just being a little over board.
As to the internet, what is wrong with the internet? There is many good sites that would benefit a nun in her study. The convenience of email, with specific guidelines, to check on a ailing parent. I think some percieve nuns as cut off from the world totally, and being closed up in a greenhouse without any concerns. Who would want to live behind walls and just be concerned with yourself. It is not that way. You are there to pray for the world, to take the concerns of the world to the Lord.
Nuns without internet sites, without aspirancy programs are drying up. Look at the poplular orders, OLAM, Nashville etc, they use the internet to the hilt. Take advantage of every little site to advertise their orders. Now, I do not totally agree with their methods, but it seems to be successful in the short run.

I greatly enjoying being able to view religious communities online, without having to wait to receive the information in the mail, which, depending on the community did or did not come, or sometimes arriving months after the inquiry! I think having a site up that shows the lives of the sisters, and perhaps even pics of the various sisters at investiture, entrance, vows, etc. is a great resource for familes and friends that can't be there during those events. It's also a blessing for those who are discerning, being able to reach a large amount of people with relatively little expense, compared to creating and printing brochures.

As to the email, I'm not sure what my opinion is. While it's also a good tool to have email for the sisters, especially for inquirers, I don't think email is necessary. I know the Sisters of Life are growing as well, but while they have a web site, they don't correspond via email even for vocational inquiries. It's funny because when I told my family that I would be entering the monastery, but wouldn't have access to email, one family member even told me that, because I don't have email, I shouldn't expect that he would write! I think so many people are so used to corresponding this way, they've lost their experience with 'snail mail'. But there's something to be said about written an old fashioned letter.

With email, as with all else on the internet, it can quickly get out of control. I have often written a community, and then kept up a correspondence for a short time, only to have my emails responded to in short order. There's a danger for the religious, especially for the contemplative religious, (just as there is that danger to ANY person) to be online too much. So, in my opinion, if they are going to allow the internet in their community, I really think there needs to be some regulations involved, otherwise that beast (meaning email and the internet) can surely take over. There are some reading this who might be thinking 'they're all adults, they can regulate themselves', and perhaps you're right, but I've met quite a few internet addicts out there, and at one time I was one of them. . .it's like the TV, you can turn it on, just to see what's on, and the next thing you know, 5 hours have passed, and you can't remember what you watched! You can sign online and do a little surfing and next thing you know, it's time for bed, and you haven't prayed. It's a real problem in today's society. We have a priest at our parish that likes to give out penances (at least he says this in his homilies) of 'no internet time for such and such a period of time', for those who have problems with it.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great tool, but truly, it is something that can quickly and inadvertently become abused, even among the most responsible of people.



When you say Mother Angelica's PCPAs, I'm going to lump all three communities in with them, AL, AZ, and OH. Last year, as Lauren can attest, they had a meeting in AL of all the PCPAs. So, there were nuns from all the monasteries, traveling to AL for this meeting. Those from OH went, (and also were there to be on EWTN), I think AZ sisters didn't go because they'd just been there, but don't quote me, and of course there were nuns from the other various PCPA communities in the country. So, yes, for certain reasons, they do travel for meetings. While the AL nuns didn't leave this year, who's to say that next meeting time, they won't be the ones doing the traveling too?

As to the silence, I can say little except to say that when I was in the monastery, we were supposed to be a lot more silent than we were, and I found myself craving that silence. I wish we were more strict. While some of the gestures might be silly, I wouldn't mind some of them, so that, if I was praying, walking down a hallway, I could still keep that internal silence, while communicating something simple to my fellow sister. Of course, if it were something more complex, or something that required speaking, that would be different, you know? Just my ten cents.

In the last newsletter I received from the Sisters of Life both the VD and her assistant (their name escape me at this time) had email addresses listed!

I think email/internet can be a great way to evangelize and spread the good news, as well as a slippery slope that distracts us from the greater (greatest!) good.

Wow! I wonder how new that is?! They used to say, I was told, that they wouldn't be using email. Well, there must be a good reason, yes? God bless.

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, I do remember this being said in Verbi Sponsa. Yeah, I know a few of the PCC communities in the Federation of MI that are great like Lemont, Belleville, and Los Altos Hills. I'll ask the Chicago Poor Clares next time I go there about how many sisters go out at a time and everything. But yeah, I think it's great for different communities to be united in this way. And the few Mary Immaculate PCCs I'd read about, all seem to be outstanding in living the charism and everything ..

But regarding the OCD nuns, I wouldn't say it was a bad thing for them to be able to keep the old constitutions, with a few changes after VII, that were approved by the Holy Father in 1990. I remember reading in the history of the Buffalo Carmel book, that they prayed an awful lot for this intention up until 1990. I do really respect their views on this, and really liked all the 1990 communities I visited.

Phoenix came a little later

Some of the solemns from Alabama did go to visit the PCPA monasteries in Ohio this past year (Portsmouth, Canton, and Cleveland).

It creates such a fraternal spirit within the community to know the sisters from other monasteries. It even brought us closer to them when only some of our solemn-professed went, and not those in formation. They (the solemns) told us all about their experience, and the Ohio sisters "sent their love" so to speak, so it really is an awesome thing for the Order

That's great! Yeah, things like that I wouldn't mind at all as an enclosed nun. If I were a PCPA I would love to see the other houses and meet the other sisters, because they seem like such a tightly knit community of PCs with Mother Angelica and all the PCPAs, with the same Mother Foundress. Also the federation meetings might be a very good thing in this way. But I really don't think it's good if not very much gets done in them, like for the PCs, as you guys were saying .. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth it to leave the cloister and spend a lot for traveling .. The Domincan meetings sound wonderful though! Yeah, the Dominicans are supposed to be great for a solid formation. The Srs of St John & the Srs of Bethlehem, whose founders were Dominicans, greatly benefited from this strong aspect of the Dominican charism. :j I love how the Srs of Bethlehem, once you are professed, are still invited every few years to the one month retreat in August at Les Montsvoroins. I felt such a great community spirit from all the sisters from all the different monasteries and nationalities there .. :j

MC, this is one of the main reasons for meeting among monasteries: for the nuns to get to know each other, pray together,share stories, problems, ideas, spiritual life, etc. etc. It's not just about getting stuff done!
I guess, that is why ours are so beneficial. We share all the little and bit things about our life but it is rooted in our knowing more about God together.
It can be so encouraging because then we realize that we all have basically the same problems!
And I haven't even gone to an Assembly meeting yet!
Another great part of it is that when the sisters do travel they often have to stop at a monastery so you get to meet sisters you'd never met before any maybe only wrote to or talked to on the phone.
Again, if there are too many meetings than yes, it's not good for the life and for enclosure but done with prudence it's so helpful for the monasteries and their growth.

Thanks, Sr. Mary Catharine! This is a really great comment. Yeah, I'm starting to see now how the federation meetings can really be a good thing, like the Srs of Bethlehem annual retreat. But yeah, as you were saying, if there are too many it could be harmful for the cloistered life and vocation. I know that for Carmelites, many of the monasteries in this order do like to remain autonomous, at least the ones I visited with the older constitutions, though they are always sisters in spirit with all the Carmelites all over the world. I still do really recommend the Carmels with the older constitutions, or any of the ones in St. Joseph's Association. I found each of the 1990 communities I visited and corresponded with very joyful too, just to let everyone know. But I think both ways can be beneficial really, so I think that's why the Holy Father decided to approve the older constitutions and the newer ones, and allow each monastery to decide. But yeah, I can really see your point on how the federation meetings can be so helpful and good for the spirit of each of the communities.

Okay, complete list of all the Discalced Carmelite Nuns under the 1990 Constitutions in the US (I forgot Littleton, CO before)