Thanks for the extensive list...Just wondering Ada, are they under the 1991 constitution? I thought it was 1990 and I didn't know that the first three listed have the full divine office in Latin! Thats pretty cool

Yes, Ada Parnell is under the 1991s, but they are really the same as the 1990s. (or very very similar I should say) I haven't corresponded with them myself, but have heard this from a few others. Many of their foundations, if not all of them, are 1990 Carmels like Buffalo, Iron Mountain, Traverse City and the like. They are also an autonomous Carmel like Iron Mountain.

Yeah, it is pretty awesome! The Gregorian chant of the Carmelites in Buffalo sounds like Heaven! I'm pretty sure that they pray the Latin Office of the revised rite. It is mostly all chanted, as I remember. And the books they use, have the Gregorian chant little notes. For a while I wasn't sure though, and still am not 100%, if they might actually be using the Tridentine Office .. Brendan would know though. Then for Holy Mass, they sing a lot of Latin, like the Sanctus, etc. I haven't been to Alexandria or Brooklyn, but know they have the Latin just like their founding Carmel of Buffalo.

Me before:

I actually didn't know any of the Poor Clares had federation meetings. I sort of always thought they couldn't because they do have the solemn vow of enclosure, while I know the Carmelites do not have that vow in particular.

Which Poor Clare federation has meetings? Does the PCCs Federation of Mary Immaculate have federation meetings?



Okay, I asked Mother Teresita at the Lemont Poor Clares, and she said the Fed of MI has the meetings once every 3 years. She said they always meet in a monastery (the Superior and another), but once they met at a retreat place, and they didn't like it. So they decided it's best to always having the meetings at one of the monasteries.

For the PCCs in IL, Lemont & Belleville are part of the Fed of MI - while Rockford and its foundation, Minooka are not. They are all still united as Colettines though.

I don't know of the Carmels that follow the 1990s overseas, though I know many of them are in Spain, but here's one in Sheffield, England that looks quite beautiful, wow - http://www.carmelite.org.uk/Kirkedge.html

Wow, here's an article from Time Magazine in 1985, about this whole Constitution thing with the OCD nuns - "Surprise and Pain in the Cloister" - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,965469,00.html

When the article refers to the Vatican rewriting the Constitutions, its referring to JPII renewing the 1581 Constitutions, ( the 1990s ) while the OCD Friars were in the process of writing the newer ones.

I had heard it was a real struggle for them for several years, but didn't think it would have been something reported in the secular media.

There's a quote from Mother John at the Schenectady Carmel, now at Pittsford, NY.

" ... to traditionalists like Mother John, prioress of a convent in Schenectady, N.Y., the language of the reformed charter "was so broad that it was not safeguarding the essential dimensions" of the Carmelite vocation."

I had heard something like this before, that the newer Constitutions don't have all the specifics as the old ones do.

But at the same time, I do really think with discerning Carmel, it really really depends on each particular community, though the 1990s are pretty much guaranteed to be very traditional.

But again, there are also some Carmels that are supposed to be pretty traditional and very good communities with many new vocations, like Ada Parnell, MI and Denmark, WI. They do always say, each Carmel is different, and has a different spirit.

Just a few thoughts & sources of information ..

That Time article says something about nuns in tropical climates having to wear the wool habits. But I'm sure that the 1990s definitely allow cotton habits, as at Buffalo they have both Winter and Summer habits, which I'm pretty sure are cotton.

Here's a clip from the History of the Buffalo Carmel booklet, just to add a few sources of information to this thread.




Oh, and this little clip refers to the beautiful Spanish crucifixes made at the Buffalo Carmel (possibly also at Ada Parnell, Alexandria, & Brooklyn).
Here's a link with a picture of a crucifix made at Buffalo - http://www.olphnm.org/ladyicons.html

Just posting a link here to the Spanish crucifixes thread, for more on this. Yes, the Alexandria Carmel does make these!

Just posting this again, as it's on the previous page.

I found this website for the St. Joseph Association of US Carmels - http://www.carmelitenunsstjoseph.org

It says to check back, as it's being updated. It hasn't been updated in a while, but it's still pretty neat!

Here's the other page for St. Joseph's on the Flemington Carmel's site - http://www.flemingtoncarmel.org/StJoseph

I was lucky enough to be invited to attend a talk last night given to Carmelite aspirant priests by the Superior General of the OCD, Father Arostegui. He was sweet and holy and has such a great love for "Holy Mother Teresa, our foundress" (as he calls her). He talked about her so lovingly and said that although the Carmelites were founded by the early hermits of Mt Carmel following St Albert's Rule, it was Teresa who founded the OCD through her reforms, and the foundation of the OCD friars. He was so happy that Carmel can claim three doctors of the Church, two of them women! I loved listening to him explain the history of the OCD and where the order is today around the world.

When he opened up for questions, one of the young aspirants asked about the confusion of the 1990/1991 consitutions for the nuns. Father General talked with such respect about Vatican II and how the nuns were being asked (for the first time ever) to participate in the making of their own constitutions. He said this was a very difficult time for a lot of people, and that it took many years for any kind of consensus to be reached. While everyone was trying to find agreement on the renewal of the constitution, one group simply wrote up and presented their own version for approval, and the Holy See granted it. Then when everyone else finally presented their renewed constitution, the Holy See granted this as well, so two versions ended up being approved - the one reached through consensus with all the nuns (except a small few), and the one that was presented in secret by those who disagree with the renewal. He seemed very sad about what he called the "split in the family". Now, although he is the Father General for all the OCD friars and nuns, he does not have juricial authority over the ones who wrote their own constitution - they answer directly to the Holy See. Although it is wonderful to answer to Holy Father, I personally see the value in having the nuns and friars closely related, as St Teresa wanted.

I asked Father General about the relationship between nuns and friars today and he says that we are all very much a family. One of the aspirants wanted to know why the nuns "had" to be cloistered while the friars were not! I immediately felt like leaping to the defence of the cloistered nuns and saying "Because we WANT to be cloistered - don't take that gift away from us!" but I didn't have to... Father General spoke so loving about the cloistered nuns and about being a contemplative. He said it was a choice, and that of course there were other options that women could take, but that this is what Teresa wanted, and that being a contemplative is a vocation. I loved his answer and it touched my heart.

I spoke with Father General briefly after the talk, and he asked me to come see him again on the 17th for a brief chat and a blessing for my vocation. I feel very blessed already, just being able to have heard him speak with such love and authority. Deo gratias.

Dear Annie, Thanks for sharing your experience! Yeah, it is sad that there's been a split for the OCD nuns. But I'm happy to hear that the Father General is so great!

Yes, St. Teresa did want the order to be united. That's why a few Carmels like Georgetown, CA asked for permission to follow the 1990s in all ways, except to be under the jurisdiction of the OCD Father General. But not too many Carmels were given permission to do this. I'm not sure how many.

It's difficult, because at the same time, the 1990 Carmels are following the exact 1581 Constitutions that St. Teresa wanted, updated and promulgated by John Paul II in 1990. They didn't write their own constitutions, but simply follow the old ones updated. (I read somewhere though that these Constitutions are in the Appendix of the 1991s). The vast majority of the Carmels wanting this were the ones in Spain. But if you can see, especially from that Time magazine article, it was difficult times then, and this minority group was concerned about safeguarding the way of life St. Teresa gave them, which was pretty well founded.

But with discerning Carmel nowadays, I would say again that it also really really depends on each particular community. People are always saying that. The 1990s definitely are not in any way against Vatican II though, just to be sure to say.

It's sad that the order is split, though they are still in the same family founded by St. Teresa.

The Wolverhampton Carmel looks great! very solid & traditional! That's so great you're going there!!!

Thanks again for sharing your experience with the OCD Father General! Yeah, it's definitely good see the other side too! :j Again, I know the Denmark, WI Carmel, under the 1991s, is particularly supposed to be outstanding! I have a little brochure of their's. I'm making a little photo album page of good Carmels in the US, so as soon as I'm done, I'll post the link.

PS - That's seriously awesome that you're going to speak to the Discalced Carmelite Father General personally! , and get a blessing from him for your vocation!! :D

Praised be Jesus Christ on His Feast of Divine Mercy!

I just wanted to post here really quick, to ask forgiveness if I've been too political or anything in this thread. I don't wish at all to hurt any one's feelings or to say anything negative about any Carmel. I just wanted to be sure to let people know about this Constitution thing with the Carmelites for those discerning Carmel.

Though there has been a split for the nuns, still they are all in the same Order of Discalced Carmelites, just answer to a different authority. But for instance, I know the Des Plaines Carmel and Terre Haute are very close and friends to each other. Terre Haute is where Des Plaines came from. Also within the St. Joseph's Association there are Carmels with both 1990, and 1991s. So the split seems to be not only with the Constitutions, but more generally with Carmels that want to live a traditional interpretation of the rule, and those who do not. In the end, the most important rule is to love God and neighbor.

That is so incredibly neat how you were invited to that talk by the OCD Father General, especially just after you've been accepted at Wolverhampton! Yeah, I would have been the same way, jumping out of my seat, to that question over why do the nuns have to be cloistered - what a reassurance to hear the Father General defend the contemplative vocation so well. Thanks again for sharing this Carmelite experience!

Just posting the link to Teresa de Jesus on EWTN here. :j

Margaret Clare

If the nuns themselves and their superiors couldn't understand everything that was happening, then we humble folk certainly can't be expected to have a full understanding of all the factors involved in the struggle and split.

I do have a different perspective now, however, and don't necessarily think that the 1990's nuns are actually living the "traditional interpretation of the rule". The reason for this is that the original Alcala Constitution (which is what the 1990s one is based on) was not the one written by Teresa herself! It was amended by the friars.

"The redactors of the 1990 Constitutions continue to ignore that the Constitutions of Alcalà were influenced by many different factors and are not attributed to Teresa. The 1990 Constitutions is a text which does not respond to the dual challenges of renewal: it neither returns to authentic sources nor provides up-to-date adaptation.

Not only has the Constitutions of Alcalà not been included with other texts traditionally used as the spiritual patrimony of the Order, but competent scholarship has also established that the real influence of Teresa upon this text was limited. The Brief forming the Province of Discalced Carmelites names the chapter friars, not Teresa, as having authority to write the constitutions for the nuns. The friars radically rearranged Teresa's Primitive Constitutions. There are 25 total omissions, 13 modifications, 23 additional numbers and between 400 and 500 stylistic changes. Not only was there little concern shown for preserving the text as Teresa wrote it, but the original spirit of the reform was not a priority."


The nuns went through a similar problem with the 1590/1591 constitutions to the ones they faced in 1990/1991. So four hundred years passed without being able to bring the factions together!

See the Fractured Face of Carmel for info on all these quotes...


Renewal process of the Order: lessons learned

In the end, papal intervention contributed to the multiple texts that exist today. Even though the primary concern of John Paul II was the unity of the Order, the results fall sadly short of that goal. If a group experiences a fracturing of its unity as the result of so-called renewal, is this a true sign of the Spirit as described in the Gospel?

Numerous lessons can be learned when one reflects upon the events that hindered the nuns from attaining a positive conclusion to the process of renewal. First of all, those involved in the renewal of an institute must have a respect for its spiritual patrimony. The nuns themselves need this most of all.

Secondly, and more importantly, renewal does not start with changing legislative texts but with personal, spiritual renewal. One does not need legislation to live a life truly dedicated to God. In this case, the very process heavily influenced by the hierarchy and other outside forces failed to promote a spiritual renewal or contemporary expression of a living charism by the nuns, but instead perpetuated institutional uniformity mandated by legislation.

The government structure of the nuns was not able to support a united renewal since a general session of the nuns was not possible. The lack of an international group of federations and associations contributed to the secretive maneuvers that perpetuated the process for twenty-five years. United efforts of small groups of monasteries influenced the development of a legislative text that is based more on an ancient text than on the spirit of renewal of Vatican II. Perpetual isolation experienced by some monasteries also promoted less than serious attempts at renewal.

The nuns need a clear understanding of their attempt at renewal. They need to understand not only what caused the fracture of unity but also what perpetuates it to this day. The manipulation of information by others and by the nuns themselves passed around in letters as rumors, half-truths and incorrect information all promoted the continual mistrust and subsequent polarization. Those in leadership who did not attempt to get to the truth contributed to this mistrust most of all.

The twenty-five-year search for renewal by the Discalced Carmelite nuns raises subsequent issues and serious questions, suggesting possible consequences which may also affect other women religious in the future. Hopefully what has happened concretely in this Order is not a paradigm for what may happen in other sectors of the Church as they continue to articulate Vatican II principles and further develop their theological perspectives.

Above all else, the nuns would have been better served by the Holy See if they had been encouraged to take responsibility for their own legislation. The Discalced Carmelite nuns need to take responsibility for their own identity. They are an international Order, not just a religious phenomenon based upon Teresa's spirituality. They have a message and a mission for the Church, not just for a specific region or the nation of foundation. They have a sacred history which does not restrict itself to a nostalgia for the past but one that is a living charism today and points to the future. They are about the transformation of the kingdom, which begins with their own transformation and often demands a readiness to part with the institutions sanctioned by time and tradition.

No one knows the future. But what we do know today is that individual Discalced Carmelite nuns continue to be called holy and blessed by the Church. From Thérèse of Lisieux to (more recently) Elizabeth of the Trinity, Theresa of Jesus of the Andes and Edith Stein, to name only a few, these women have been named by the Church as contemporary models of the Teresian spirituality. They are held as models for others who desire to live the Christian life to the full. They are examples of the most important lesson to be learned from the history of the Discalced Carmelite legislative renewal: the following of the law does not necessarily make one holy. Rather, it is the one who follows Christ who will find the way, the truth and the life' (Jn 14:6).

One of the Carmels that I applied to follows the 1990s constitutions. When I spoke with the Mother Superior of this convent on the phone, all she could talk about was the rules. Did I realize that they have strict rules, yes. Did I understand that they could only speak to the Mother at recreation - all comments were to be directed to her and not to any other sisters, yes. She was so focused on the rules that I had to ask Father Paul what he thought. He said simply that it didn't sound like there was much room for the Holy Spirit if all she could talk about was rules. Then when I got a letter of invitation to visit this community, Mother said that the other nuns wondered if I was going through menopause, since I wanted to enter at such a late age! I am not saying that all 1990s communities are this way, but I didn't feel any presence of the Holy Spirit at all from them, whereas Wolverhampton just embraced me from the first contact. Holy Mother Teresa wanted her nuns to be like a family, to love each other and to support each other. The spirit of Carmel is not just about rules, but about charism and spirit. Teresa was a reformer with passion and zeal. One of my favorite quotes of hers is:

"It is bad enough... to be stupid by nature without trying to be stupid by grace." (her response to a nun who wanted to stifle any entertaining comments that occured to her during recreation time).

So if the nuns were only to speak to Mother Prioress and not to each other, why would she have said this? Just an observation. The 1990s nuns are still in the minority around the world, and although I am sure that they are all that is good and holy, I am very glad to be going to a community that follows the 1991 constitution, and is under the patrimony of the Father General.

Anyway, without being too political, I believe that the 1990s communities might have lost something of the spirit by too strict adherence to what they think is her original constitution, but which historians say was not hers, because it had been completely modified by the friars!

My two cents.... no offence meant to anyone

+ Praise God
Annie

Annie, Please forgive me .. I'm very very sorry for saying anything negative .. Yeah, it really depends on each Carmel .. seriously .. I'm so sorry that this one Carmel treated you this way ... that's terrible ...

I didn't experience anything like this from Des Plaines, Iron Mountain, Buffalo, or Lake Elmo. They were all very nice and welcoming. I know Des Plaines excepted a woman in her 60's, Ann Miller, now Sr. Mary Joseph. Also, at Iron Mountain, they had an older postulant. I particularly found Iron Mountain to be extremely welcoming and friendly.

I know that during the recreations at Buffalo, the sisters all joked and laughed with each other a lot. I remember talking directly to the other sisters very naturally, just this thing with directing everything toward Mother or the Novice Mistress is to include everyone in the conversation. But you can talk directly to another sister, just not a private conversation.

The Fractured Face of Carmel article is written with a negative view on the 1990s. But yeah, it does say in the Time article that the 1581 Constitutions were written by Carmelite priests a year before St. Teresa died.

I'm so sorry again for causing unrest .. seriously ..

Margaret Clare

Absolutely no offence was taken. It is precisely because of the misunderstandings that this is all so sad. In reality, all of the nuns are consecrated to God, and they are all trying to live in His love. But in a fractured world, this just shows us how strongly we must all be steeped in charity - to accept each other, whatever our views. Just as there are many Benedictine orders, and many Franciscan ones, the fact that there are O Carms, and then OCD s that follow either 1990s or 1991 (or a very few with a compromise constitution) - this is not a problem - much better for there to be several versions of Carmel, than none at all!

God's love, dear sister,
Annie Clare

Oh thanks, Annie! I totally agree! Yeah, it is the misunderstandings that are so sad!

Yeah, that's right - very well said.


Very well said!! Thanks Annie Clare!

Thanks again, Annie!




Yes, totally!! Oh dear, imagine the world without the Carmelite nuns praying for it!

On the Georgetown Carmel's site, (Carmel of the Holy Family & St. Therese) in the explanation of the association of Carmels, Los Palomarcitos de la Virgen, there is a quote from our late Holy Father John Paul II, regarding his desire for unity among Carmels, that Annie's words echo here so well ... another good source of information for this thread ...

QUOTE

"I desire that the approbation of the two texts of the Constitutions, by which I have tried to respond to the express desires of the different monasteries, keeps alive the spiritual unity of all the Teresian Carmels…an intense mutual love must unite you in your vocation. The words of St. Teresa to the Discalced Carmelite Nuns of Seville, must be applied to all the members of the Order: 'So my daughters, all of you are daughters of the Virgin, and sisters. Try to love one another wholeheartedly…' (Letter, 13 January 1580, par.5)." - Pope John Paul II

Hey guys, not at all meaning to bring this topic up again, but I wanted to add a few thoughts here, especially for those who may navigate to this thread from outside PM searching for information online about this, as there's not many other sources out there on it.

First, there was a more recent thread on this, that I wanted to link to here. There are a couple more great quotes from JPII there from his letter: Discalced Carmelite Constitutions, Split Opinion

The original letter is only available on the Vatican website in Spanish and Italian, and while I can understand a little of it, I was really hoping to find an official English translation. Also I was hoping to buy a copy of both the 1990 & 1991 Constitutions to actually read the texts myself, but they are only available for private OCD use, as it says for the 1991s I found here: www.carmelitebooks.com (a great bookstore, btw)

However, I did find an old copy of the 1928 Rule & Constitutions at amazon (on a side note, when the Discalced Carmelites speak of the Rule or the Primitive Rule, it's the Rule of St. Albert. When they speak of the Constitutions, it's the Constitutions of St. Teresa) These from 1928 were the ones in which the Carmels that "use a somewhat different version of the Text" (from Cardinal Laurenti's letter at the beginning) were asked to follow this version of the Text that was conformed to the new 1917 Code of Canon Law. In them however there are still two different Forms of Profession, one "In Convents Subject to the Superiors of the Order" and the other "In Convents Not Subject to the Superiors of the Order" So this difference in jurisdiction seems to have been a normal thing for them, even when they all followed the same Text.

One particular scenario I wanted to point out is that of the Carmel in Dallas, which was founded from, or rather the relocated Carmel of Tulancingo during the persecutions of the Church in Mexico. Their present monastery is within a mile of the Discalced Carmelite Friars, who helped them relocate from Mexico (along with Mother Elias, foundress of the Carmels of Grand Rapids, Buffalo & Schenectady) From the Carmel in the United States book it says, "The Carmel of Tulancingo had been under the jurisdiction of the ordinary so the same procedure was continued in the Carmel in Dallas."

Dallas is a Carmel under the 1990s now, so they continue to not be under the jurisdiction of the OCD Friars. However, this is not something that causes them a separation from the friars. The friars that are practically a walk away, are their chaplains and offer them spiritual direction. So they are very much associated with each other in the same Order and everything. I've heard also that the Dallas OCD Friars are very good. One of them came to Buffalo Carmel for the annual Novena to Our Lady of Mount Carmel - same thing with the California-Arizona Province friars (a great province I've heard) going to Valparaiso

So again, it doesn't seem that this current Constitution split, and particularly the jurisidiction difference, is that unusual or disunifying of a thing for them.

Some other things I wanted to add here .. a link to the Support For Cloistered Carmelite Vocations thread :j

Also, something I noticed on the OCD official site with all the addresses, next to the Carmels under the 1990s there’s a "/C" in red. So here's another way to know which Carmels are under which, particularly for those of you discerning Carmel in another country. I noticed this next all the US 1990s there, except they missed Brooklyn, Flemington, and Georgetown which I'm positive are under the 1990s. They had a sign next to Morristown, which I've never seen on any 1990 list, but possibly they are. They're definitely in the St. Joseph Association. Also the new Carmel in Clearwater, KS is under the 1990s.

The photo page I made with a few Carmels, http://picasaweb.google.com/ocdnuns will eventually be gone when that account expires at some point, so I thought I'd list again here the 1990 Carmels in the US with separate links, with the new one in Kansas I just learned of.

Alexandria, SD
Brooklyn, NY
Buffalo, NY
Clearwater, KS
Dallas, TX
Des Plaines, IL
Erie, PA
Flemington, NJ
Georgetown, CA
Iron Mountain, MI
Jefferson City, MO
Kensington, CA
Lake Elmo, MN
Littleton, CO
Louisville, KY
Mobile, AL
Pittsford, NY
Traverse City, MI
Valparaiso, NE

And a couple under the '91s that I've heard are great and very traditional

Ada Parnell, MI
Denmark, WI

Alright, that about sums up the few extra thoughts I wanted to add here. Also, I've heard from one of Annie's (now Sr. Teresa of Jesus) friends who will be joining the Wolverhampton Carmel too, that she is doing very well!

Happy Feast of St. Teresa tomorrow!!

+ Praised be Jesus Christ!

Again, not intending to bring this topic up again, but I've been wanting to make this correction to the last post I posted here on Dallas Carmel.


Actually the friars aren't their chaplains but are their confessors. At least according to the Constitutions of 1928, the Friars of the Order actually weren't supposed to be appointed as chaplains of the monasteries of nuns, but could be their confessors. This reminds me of how it was in the Teresa de Los Andes movie, where the diocesan priest whom she saw for spiritual direction before entering (I believe diocesan priest) offered Mass and presided over her clothing, while a Discalced Carmelite Friar heard her confession and offered her direction (example: confession & clothing)

Also the friar from Mount Carmel Center in Dallas, who often goes to Buffalo for annual Novenas like to Our Lady of Mount Carmel or St. Joseph, is Fr. Jerome Earley, OCD.

Also, the Discalced Carmelite Order has a new website now: http://www.discalcedcarmel.com/ For the addresses of the nuns, the monasteries under the 1990 Constitutions have a little asterisk next to their name. All of them are marked correctly this time, only Morristown again is marked, so I wonder if possibly they did switch over to the 1990's recently.

Yesterday was the anniversary of the death of St. Teresa of the Andes, April 12, 1920. May she intercede for us all in discerning the Lord's will God bless!

Wow. Margaret Clare!

I FINALLY sat down last night and read this whole thread, and went to all the links and I feel like an expert on Carmel! I had read "The Fractured Face of Carmel" before, but this thread really helped explain a very complicated subject.

You have obviously done a ton of research. THANK YOU!

Buffalo does not have a website - is that right?

Also, I'm wondering about a couple of things...do the 1990 Carmels have double grilles and do they cover their face with a sheer veil when the possibility of being seen occurs? And do the 1990's practice corporal penance? And finally...do you know of a Monastery (I "want" to say that it happened in Rhode Island or Boston, but I am not sure!) that had some of the nuns "locked" inside in an almost revolt over suggested changes? Do you know what I am talking about? Was that in response to the 1990/1991 changes?

Thank you so much...for your knowledge and willingness to share has been invaluable!

Perpeutalove

Margaret Clare,
I think it was the Danvers Monastery that had the problems - is this right? I cannot find a website for them. Are they 1990 or 1991? I'm sorry for the questions!
Perpetualove

Perpetual Love, the "nuns that were locked in" were at the Carmel of Morristown, NJ.

Oh....Laudem...thank you! Do you know if it was over the Constitutions?

Oh....Laudem...thank you! Do you know if it was over the Constitutions?

Actually, here's an old article on the Morristown Carmel's problem at http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...753C1A96E948260 .

I they have settled the problems and are a 1990's Carmel.

Thank you so much. This brings up another question, so I will start another thread! Thanks, Laudem!

Hi! I just wanted to add, yes, the Morristown, NJ Carmel is under the 1990s. They switched from the 1991s, but I'm not sure when. Also, I had the first post in this thread edited way back early last year to read more like a history book, with more links, etc - so thus, the thread doesn't exactly flow right at the beginning - just something I thought I'd note here. It probably would have been better if I posted this in a blog or something, so I could edit it any time or add more information, etc. One thing I really wanted to correct was ..


Nope, the 1581 Constitutions are definitely written by St. Teresa herself, just revised by the friars/her spiritual director, as I believe all of her writings were. These are the Constitutions she referred to at her death.

Finally, I wanted to add the new site of the Carmel of the Holy Spirit in England, http://www.kirkedge.org.uk/ They look really beautiful! God bless!

The number of nuns who follow the constitutions of 1991, around the world, is of 9857 in 756 convents. Of the 1990, they are 1856 in 126 convents. According to the pontifical yearbook of 2007.
In Spain, We call "Maravillosas" to follow the constitutions of 1990, by the Mother Maravillas, a appropriate name, maravillosas mean wonderful.
I speak of Spain, and say that without doubt, those who most influenced the relaxation of Carmel, were the Carmelite friars, some very liberalized by here. Some interpreted the intervention of Pope John Paul II as a "coup of state" and i know of nuns8of 1991) who say that prioresses of the maravillosasl(1990), failed to read the constitutions of 1990 to your nuns, a very serious accusation.
In the USA there 60 Carmels, in Spain 147, more of the "Maravillosas", which no longer depend on the Carmelite order.

Carmelites "Maravillosas", constitutions of 1990




Carmelites constitutios of 1991

Wow...what a difference!

Indeed...

Although I like them both. The 1991's style is very sleek and simple.

I agree, the 1991's style is very sleek and simple, but at the same time I'm awed by the beauty of the traditional style habit. Think about the great carmelite saints: St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Edith Stein, St. Teresa Margaret, Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity, and all the others. I mean, that's the same type of habit they wore! If it was my vocation to be a carmelite nun, I would choose a convent that still has the traditional carmelite habit so to wear the same habit as the great carmelite saints. Of course I wouldn't choose a convent solely on the habit but it would be a big plus!

The fact is that I am wrong, the two communities remain the constitutions of 1991. Although the first are more traditional, the first is the community of Sister Lucia, the girl of Fatima aparitions.
Even so the style is as I said, almost all of 1991 have changed the habit, but the basic similarity.
This is the majority stile of the nuns of 1991 constitutions.

picture
This is the Prioress of a Carmel.

I was going to ask if that was Sr. Lucia, but I figured the community you probably posted of was in Spain and she was in Portugal

That is interesting that Sr. Lucia was in a traditional 1991 Carmel. Thanks for posting the pictures. They are lovely. Where did you find the picture of the Carmel of Sr. Lucia?

Never said that the nuns were Spanish , although I could not find any photo you know they are safe nuns "Maravillosas".
I found the photo in the international site of the Discalceds Carmelites Order. A visit of a nuns of my province to Sor Lucia in the video.

http://www.ocd.pcn.net/Lucia_Ave.htm

I assume things for I don't know what reasons oh so often, so that is probably what happen with me thinking they were spanish carmelites. Just ignore my silliness.

Are there photos of any of the "Maravaillosas" ? It seems like I don't see photos often of them... they seem much more hidden and when there are photos you don't see the sisters' faces. I understand why this is, but I am still wondering if perhaps there are any out there.

Thanks for the link.

Just wanted to say something about Carmelite monasteries in Canada. There are of at least three that I know of. Two are of the 1991 constitutions. One of which wears a modified habit. The other is a 1990 constitution monastery. They wear full habits and got too full and they founded a monastery at the other end of the country. I have met them. This new foundation still wears the traditional habit, has a wooden grille, has a cover for their grille in the chapel. But, they are 1991 constitutions. As far as I can tell, they are probably just as strict as their founding monastery. Please pray for them, as there is eight nuns, one just died, who are in this little house they call a monastery. Two are junior professed, one of which is going to profess her solemn vows in a couple months. Please pray for their building of a new monastery, they REALLY need it.
God Bless

I will pray for them!!

Thank you very much, both MandyKhatoon and TotusTuus Maria. They've been trying to get a monastery built for the last fifteen years and still nothing. Hopefully the work will start and the necessary money will come. I will pray for both of you in thanksgiving for your prayers.
God Bless

I recently bought - a few months ago - from Amazon.com the book "Let Him Do It: Life of Maravillas of Jesus" by Jose Morales. It is EXCELLENT for anyone wanting to know more about this wonderful Carmelite saint! I got it for $12.00 or so.

This is the book listed on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Let-Him-Do-Maravilla...7475&sr=1-9

But it is "Currently Unavailable" now. But keep checking back as I've seen it on and off. This link gives more information on the book.

Sister Lynne, the Prioress of the Carmel of Eldridge in Iowa, is one of the holiest and most beautiful nuns I have ever met. I doubt a habit could make her holier. It was nice to see her picture.

I completely agree with wanting the traditonal habit. Which communities still do that?

There's many in the US with the full traditional habit - which is the only one I want! Why anyone would want to butcher the most beautiful habit of Our Lady is beyond me! I personally think the modifed Carmelite habit is ugly.

Go to the St. Joseph's Association of 1990 Carmels at http://carmelitenunsstjoseph.org/monastery.htm . These are the best ones.

Also, see Margaret Clare's 1990s Carmel Photo album of monasteries at http://picasaweb.google.com/ocdnuns.

Carmel of Brooklyn, NY: no website, founded from the Buffalo, NY Carmel.

Carmel of Kensington, CA: http://www.gilmoretechservices.com/Archive...05.html#Inside1

Carmel of Santa Fe, NM: http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/67 and http://www.straphaelcrystal.org/ministry/m...y_vocation.html - scroll down on right for picture of a novice.

Then there are excellent ones with no association affiliation but 90s like the Carmel of Cristo Rey (bilingual) in San Franciso (no website but this: http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/99). And a foundation from them is the Carmel at Valparaiso, NE.

And another autonomous Carmel is at Clearwater, KS (http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/115 and http://www.projo.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/...s.1ee9293c.html

Carmel of Iron Mt, MI: http://cloisteredlife.com/carmelites.htm




There are some 91's in full habit like and may be autonomous or in other associations:

Carmel by the Sea: http://www.carmelitesistersbythesea.net/homepage.htm

Port Tobacco Carmel: http://carmelitenunsstjoseph.org/monastery.htm

Terre Haute Carmel: http://www.heartsawake.com/

Carmel of Alhambra, CA: http://members.aol.com/teresacarm/index.htm

Carmel of St. Louis, MO: http://www.stormpages.com/mtcarmel/

Carmel of San Antonio, TX: http://www.carmelsanantonio.org/ (bilingual)

Carmel of New Caney, TX: http://www.icansurf.com/ocdnewcaney/

Carmel of San Rafael, CA: http://motherofgodcarmel.org/index.php

Carmel Alexandria, SD: go to page 7, small article on a nun on right side -
http://www.diocese-of-sioux-falls.org/comm...unebulletin.pdf

Carmel of Georgetown, CA: http://www.carmelitemonastery.com/

Carmel of Ada/Parnell, MI: http://carmelitenuns.org/

Carmel of Salt Lake City, UT: http://www.carmelslc.org/

Carmel of Hialeah, FL: http://www.miamiarch.org/ip.asp?op=H1000071221a

Carmel of Arlington, TX: http://www.carmelnuns.com/index.html - I THINK they wear the full habit, never saw pictures of them, so I'm not sure.

Carmel of Clinton Township, MI: http://www.rc.net/detroit/carmelite/



Then there are the English Carmels I am looking at:

First choice is Sheffield Carmel: http://www.kirkedge.org.uk/index.html -1990 Carmel

Other English Carmels are:

St. Helen's - 1990 but no website other than - http://www.carmelite.org.uk/StHelens.html

Two good Enghlish 1991 Carmels in full habit are:

Carmel of Wolverhampton, UK: http://www.wolvercarmvocations.org.uk/

Carmel of Upholland, UK: http://www.carmelite.org.uk/Upholland.html



Ok, I think that's a lot! The 1990s are much better and more in following St. Teresa of Avila's reformed Carmel more so than the 91s. Some O.Carms wear the full habit also.