From the Carthusian Nuns thread:



Do you guys think things like this could possibly start happening again in Europe, with the rise of Islam and secularization of the gov't and people? Maybe not just now, but in the not too distant future?

Here in America, this is pretty unlikely, as we have many laws regarding private property - but Europe is generally more socialist, in different ways, I believe .. Not that they are all socialist gov'ts, but generally speaking..

Of course, Christianity these days needs the blood of the martyrs for the conversion of the world ..

But what do you guys think? are evitions like this possibly likely for the future of Europe, especially for instance, France or Spain .. ?

It is an interesting subject I sadly no nothing about. One would have to know the exact legal status for Churches in each dif. country.

I know from reading about Poland and JPII that in Poland churchs have little to no legal rights. That is a BIG problem that JPII and the faithful of Poland consistently battled and I would surmise still do.

I believe it could be possible in America as well, and certainly in Europe especially with population increasing for Muslim families and decreasing for European families (because of abortion and contraception).

As for America: Are you aware that there is a fight to impose lobbyist regulations on Catholic churches? I think we have a lot to consider in coming years.

Absolutely.

Hey, thanks for the reply .. Okay .. so one must know the legal status for churches in each country .. That's so sad for Poland ..

Yeah ... but I definitely don't think the threat of this in America is anywhere as great as in Europe. This is what my mother is often telling me. Generally speaking, European gov'ts are much different.

I was asking my mom about this, and she was saying that has to do with the Church lobbying for certain political parties. If they do that, then the gov't can say they're not a charitable org. anymore, but a political one. Catholic Answers had difficulty with this, as they published the Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics - which was awesome. They definitely weren't lobbying for a specific political party, but just stating the teaching of the Church on specific issues. But what they did was, Catholic Answers now has a branch called Catholic Answers Action that can support different parties, because it's not a charitable org - just supported by donations - just you can get the tax deductible thing.

But yeah, here in a America, things are definitely difficult for Catholics, and probably getting worse, especially the media. But still, rights and private property are at least protected to a much greater extent than many Euro. countries. It's great our country was founded on these principles.

But Europe these days ... It's so sad with so much history .. I remember St. Teresa wrote in her biography, that she was thinking of going off somewhere like Africa, when she was a child, to be martryed and immediately go to Heaven .. Now the threat is really in her own country ..

When China rules the world....

Just you can't get the tax deductible thing, I mean.


What do you mean?


But seriously, everyone, we have to triumph over the growth of Islam and over secularism and materialism! Please God ...

When I was visiting the Carmel that was in Schenectady, NY, the Mother there, Mother John of the Cross, was saying something like - Catholicism is at it's best when we have to fight for it .. And then she was telling me about the conditions in China. I agree with her, we're the most fervent when there's a threat - otherwise, it's incredibly easy to become tepid.

I doubt it will be China.

I went to a talk by Father Joseph Fessio last night. He said there are people who actually think that there is a good chance of Muslims dominating China in the near future, but he said there is not really any substantial proof at the moment.

His talk was on Pope Benedict XVI's papacy and the issues he is facing in the world and how he is dealing with them. A primary issue, of course, is the Muslims (as everyone knows).

Anyway, more on that later perhaps. In the meantime here is a little bit about the lobbyist issue I was referring to. I don't know if it's the same thing Margaret Clare is talking about but it sounds like it probably is. Go down to number 3 at this link to read more:

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Tlt0T...lient=firefox-a

Lauren

MC,
Have no earthly idea what I was referencing here. I've got the flu and must have been posting in delirium.

Hi! No problem! Hope you get better! ... ... ...

Hey guys, this is great news about contemplative vocations increasing in Italy! Just linking the thread here - Nun's the Word

Meh, I trust that the Church will be fine, He said it would be.

I hope Islam triumps over Secularism in Europe, would serve them right for abandoning everything...and I certainly support a conservative Islam a lot more than a decadent, secularized, atheist Europe.

But then China will defeat Islam.

I doubt Islam will become popular in China. I find it much more likely that the True Church will find in China fresh, fertile soil in which to spread the seeds of faith, and in 200 years, China may rule the world...but a Christian China. And I'd be fine with that.

Western Civilization is coming to an end.

But the Church, though she was inextricably united to it for a long time, is not necessarily tied to Europe and the West (it started in the Middle East afterall)

Western Civilization as we know it today was her beloved child, and she will fight for it to the end. It has done many great and wonderful things. But it is dying fast. But I trust she will find new children in the rising East, a new son in China, and so perhaps it's best that the Islam destroy the West. The West has gotten self-destructive, lets hope it is put out of its misery soon. Still, any mother loves her child, and we will never forget the beautiful things Europe gave us and will mourn her.

But the future is in the East, and there is nothing wrong with that if we trust Christ, for if the East is the future...then there the Church shall be found, and I hope bloom.

Hey, thanks for sharing this info! Wow you went to see Fr. Fessio last night? That's great! Yeah, I don't know any details of this lobbyist thing myself, but my mom does. Thanks for the info on it!

Hey, thanks for the reply! You have a lot of great insights! This reminds me of the article titled something like the Pope goes East to fight the West? in the magazine, The Catholic World Report.

This also reminds me of talking with a Sister of Bethlehem, Sr. Maria D'aire at Les Montsvoirons in 2003. I was just starting, and didn't know too much about Church History and religious life - not that I really know very much now. But this is a big part of the charism of the Monastic Family of Bethlehem - the East - that Christ came from the East - and the Eastern desert Fathers and so on. But still they are both Western and Eastern - more Western probably. Sr. Marie was saying to me though, that this way something JPII particularly praised about their order.

It's even more interesting to add to this, that this is a great order coming out of France. And this order is growing! Same with the Community of St. John. The West has a lot going for it. I think God has planted the seed in many young hearts, but now it is up to us to persevere, and then let's see what happens with the West .. And look at so many orders in the West these days, like the PCPAs and so forth ..

My point is that if we are going to truly be catholic, universal, the fall of the West shouldn't matter to us.

We should think of Christianity as our heritage...not anything based on the culture we accidentally happened to be raised in, the continent our ancestors are from, or the color of our skin.

I want the Church to survive. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about the survival of "my" caucasian race. I don't care about the survival of "my" anglo-american culture. I don't care about my family name being preserved.

I sometimes get scary feelings of "white nationalism" when Catholics start acting concerned about Islam overrunning Europe. Yes, there are a lot of great churches that stand to be destroyed. It's sad...but that's just architecture (though I would certainly start shipping the Relics somewhere safer if things get much worse, and perhaps as much of the art as is moveable). Those things essential to the faith will be preserved somewhere in the world. In South America. And the faith is rising in Africa. And I bet it will rise in the East.

I don't really care about preserving the "european cultural heritage" or anything, and it disturbs me a little to see the Pope fighting for it...because I wonder what, for example, the syro-malabar catholics think of that. The Pope is the spokesman of Christianity, not "european civilization". Yeah, it was great in its heyday, but if it's over, it's over. I feel no necessary attachment to it, and no need to fight for it just because of the circumstances of my birth. We'll never forget what it gave us; the art, the Saints, the literature, the theology, the science, the technology, the philosophy, the politics. But it's time to move on. Europe-America has left its mark, no doubt, for better or worse, on all parts of the world. If it dies now, I don't care.

I know this is off topic but isn't Fr. Fessio Awesome. I have Sister-friend in at USF and you wouldn't believe how much Fr. Fessio has been persecuted for his fidelity and orthodoxy.

Back to topic.

Actually, you make a very good point. It's the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ that matters, not preserving a culture. I totally get what you're saying. Otherwise, it almost does seem like "white nationalism" or something like that.

But what cmotherofpirl is saying is totally correct - hello, what about the people? Your statement in that you don't care about the West is totally uncatholic. Preserving a culture of Christianity is incredibly important - and it is a very great means to serve an end - that is the salvation of peoples' souls. And I totally agree with her statement that you are blithely throwing away 2000 years of Christianity by that statement.

I do totally get your point - the Church is our spiritual heritage that greatly transends any human culture - we are fighting for THE CHURCH to survive.

But listen, preserving the European culture of Christianity is important. The Holy Father knows He is not the spokesman for European Civilization, but for the Church. He acts in the mind of the Church in trying to preserve Christian Europe, and we shouldn't question it.

We talk about things these days like the culture of life, etc. Preserving a culture is preserving the how people live their lives. I think it's incredibly important to try to wake the West up out of their spiritual death, and a huge part of their identity throughout the centuries that has been fought even to death by their own ancestors that they are mindlessly throwing away, for nothing. It's so sad that a whole continent steeped in Christianity for centuries would spiritually die because of materialism and moderism, etc. We can't say we don't care about that. Holy Mother Church cares for all her children.

I don't think the Holy Father's focus on the West is taking away from Christianity growing in the East. I think the Eastern churches care very much about the welfare of the people in the West. I don't think they feel neglected by the Holy Father trying to preserve the Christian heritage of Europe - I just really don't think so. Last year I spent several months with some CMC sisters ( Carmelites )of the Syro-Malabar rite. They care very much about the West, and are spread all over Europe and America, mostly as teachers or nurses.

Yes, what is important is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, eternal life. But preserving the European culture of Christianity is a means to serve this end, for a whole continent of people.

But again, batteddy does make a good point, even he made some uncatholic statements. I think he's talking generally here though. I mean if a country like France has become so modernistic and doesn't even double it's own population, they almost deserve to be taken over by the Muslims. The Church definitely has to try to stop this, and is, and so many great orders like Bethlehem & St. John are still coming out of France, but if Christianity is dying out there and in Europe in general, that's their problem. It's their choice. As Jesus said, if they do not welcome you, shake the dust from your feet. I don't mean that I don't care about their spiritual death and the end of a great Catholic culture, but you get what I mean. I think that's along the same lines as what batteddy is getting at (though I would never say, I don't care, I'm very much in agreement with cmotherofpirl on this). But let the Word of God fall on good soil then. The Church remains, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.

But actually, I started this thread because I'm wondering about this evictions thing, and the future of European monasteries, particulary France, really. I am wondering if it would not be a good idea to consider joining a monastery in particularly France, as it could possibly become very insecure in days to come there. The Sisters of Bethlehem have several monasteries in France. The Carthusians have two. Anyway, everything's up to the Lord. Maybe His will is actually for me to be with the Poor Clares right here in Lemont, who are awesome ...

No problem for being off topic. I've never heard him speak, but heard he is great. That's cool how Lauren went to see him.

My only concern in the US would be the improper use of "immanent domain" which has been used by Corps like Wal-Mart to seize property.

But again, I wanted to say, I definitely care and pray that France and all of Europe is not taken over my the Muslims. My gosh, that would be terrible! Actually during the French Revolution all the Carthusian houses of nuns were closed in the late 1700's. But then in 1816 there was a revival, and now there are 2 houses in France, 2 in Italy, 1 in Spain, and now actually a foundation in South Korea ..

No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.



There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there). Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.

There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.

Praise God its in His hands and certainly not yours! How terrible!!!

This is off topic, but cmotherofpirl, I absolutely love your signature! The prayer in it is beautiful! St Patrick, pray for us! and pray for Ireland & all of Europe!

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Yes, you're right there is, as the Protestants have a lot of missions themselves. And this can be rather confusing for someone just coming into Christianity, as Christ prayed that we may be one, and yet, we are not at all.
Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, as you said, the Church should continue to mission anywhere. I rather believe, to be honest, that God is going to be sending something pretty soon that's going to bring everyone to their knees ... At least Muslims believe in God and try to serve Him, that is true, though they are mistaken in many ways. But I wouldn't want a continent full of extremist Muslims plotting to destroy America or Christians everywhere. But again, I really believe God is at work these days in particular to bring a stop to a lot of things, and usher in the Reign of His Beloved Son in the hearts of mankind .. Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus!

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. The culture is not a part of our Faith.

But what do you think about this evictions/persecutions thing for European monasteries? I guess it's pretty likely something like this could start happening. I'm just wondering personally, if it would be a wise idea or not to join a monastery over there, if it's going to start getting pretty insecure. Though, it's up to God's will in the end .. Anyway, Jesus did warn us of persecutions ..

Why do you care if they're plotting to "destroy America". Let go. America was an okay place in it's heyday. But if it has internally weakened itself through decadence, perhaps it's time to jump ship. I identify with a Religion, not a Nation-State.

There already is a continent full of Muslims, basically. Though they would increase numerically through natural birth in this scenario, that would happen anyway. It's not like another billion Muslims is going to appear out of nowhere and fill up Europe that wouldn't have been born otherwise. It would merely be a geographic shift of people who were going to exist anyway somewhere. Why not Europe if Europe deserves it?

But the Muslims taking over Europe are largely moderate, not extreme. Though the less Europe-America takes Islamic culture seriously, the more radicalized they get.

As for monastery evictions, the presumption is that the monasteries would be largely abandoned by the time Muslims really could "take over" and any ones left would probably regroup somewhere else. Christians have faced Muslim takeover before. The persecutions when a minority pre-dates you in a region are much less than when the minority tries to move into YOUR region (like the Christians did with pagan Rome)

I was just going to mention something that may be off topic and isn't as intense as all the earlier posts, but earlier it was mentioned that evictions probably wouldn't happen in America? Fr Groeschel recently said to his sisters and friars that one day soon, he wouldn't see it but they would, people would 'rip the habits right off you'. (I think I got that quote right.) Now, I know that his community is either exclusively, or if not, mainly, in the US. Saying that, I'd chance it to say, if his 'prediction/prophecy' is correct, I could in fact see that happening here in the (not to distant) future.

Oh dear, this is not good ... But it does give us a chance to bear witness to Christ ... Our Lord did warn of persecutions ..

Maybe I see things differently because I actually live in the middle of it, but I don't see any muslims "taking over" Europe. There are quite a few moderate muslims in my country, although greatly outnumbered by the Christians (even if you only count the practising ones), and the entire culture of Western Europe is based on Christian values in such a great matter that atheists try all kinds of stuff to make people forget it (at which they continuously fail to succeed).

Last time I checked, it wasn1 the early 20th century anymore, there was freedom of religion, and no monasteries will be evicted here. Agnostics, in general, aren't anti-religion.

The Order of St. John came from Europe, just a couple of decades ago. And they're booming. There are active youth groups all over my country. The Catholic Youth Day attracted thousands (which, on a total of 16 million inhabitants, is a lot).

I know a couple of muslims, I went to school with them. The ones I was friends with I liked, the others I didn't, quite the same as other people, really. Some extremists have plans to "take over Europe", but they're not very realistic, believe me. Terrorism doesn't work except to upset us, they don't have organized military power, so that's not an option either, and we outnumber them far too much for democratic takeovers. NOTHING is happening.

We're not dying. No-one is taking us over. No-one is considering persecution. Please stop saying that, it's really terribly offensive. I'm sorry, but I'm also quite serious.

I'm in agreement with VA here.

Running the risk of being blunt, far too many Americans on Phatmass type before they think when it comes to what happens in Europe. Disappointingly enough, those Americans (and others, I'll be fair) who have actually spent time in Europe - say, for a term or year or so for study - are all too often the ones who shoot their mouths off, and then wave their "I've lived in Europe, I know what it's like" banner, as though that somehow might excuse their ignorance.

We are under no illusions about the threats to Christianity here. However, I for one do not appreciate people painting the picture blacker than it is. Offer up your wanhoop to Christ and let Him take it away; it doesn't belong on the internet.

It's enough to see this kind of attitude on Open Mic. For the love of God and the hope of your own salvation, keep it out of Vocation Station.

Love and prayers,

PP

Hi! I'm in agreement with you guys too. Please forgive me if I've sad anything offensive. I kept trying to reply to batteddy. Really, I didn't mean to say anything negative about Europe, and have no idea what I'm talking about. It is just something that's often being written about in different conservative Catholic magazines and everything.

I only went to the Srs of Bethlehem retreat in France for 1 month, and it was only in one isolated area, so I have no idea myself from my own extremely limited experience. I lived in Ireland for a year, but I found it very Catholic, and was surrounded by loving devout people. Most of my view about things going wrong in Europe really comes from my mom actually, when I suggest maybe I will join the Srs of Bethlehem or Carthusians in France. She thinks it will be insecure for me there .. But most probably it's a part of her that really doesn't want me to go that far .. I'm really relieved with the 2 recent posts actually. Sincerely, thanks. Please forgive me.

I have a friend that joined the Community of St. John and was living in France for a long time. Now she was just recently sent back to our St. John community here in Princeville, IL. Yeah, this congregation is doing awesome with vocations! So is Bethlehem!

Guys, please forgive me, again. It was my fault for putting a link to this thread in Transmundane Lane & Open Mic too. It's great to have you guys reply about this, from people that actually live there. Thanks again!

Margaret Clare

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having travelled as a Canadian, all of east and West Europe, lived in France, Italy, Belgium, for 5 of the last 8 years, and the Usa for 3 years mostly,all within or near Catholic/Orthodox Communities( 3 of them as a Religious)..i will withhold my thoughts on the subject for the moment... . only to say, Parish life suffers greatly(stupidity/galacianism/abuse/heresy,protestantism), but Contemplative and 'new' communities doing quite well..many places the ashes are warm, embers burning, within the long tradition...
...one just need blow and woosh...keep in mind, on a socio-political level, Europes 'right/conservative' is our ( N.American) left/centre'..affecting a ecclesial outlook as well..
The recent Funeral of Abbe Pierre and thoughts on, are are GREAT example of this whole subject
...geesh,, that was with holding my thoughts!:)

BTW The saddest most depressing, scandalous Church/parish, experiences and loss of faith, nationalist Church attitudes etc, i ever experienced , were not in Europe... but in Quebec ,Canada.so....

this article is sorta current/relevant
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: Major Signs of Religious Revival Seen in France and Quebec? Reply with quote
Major Signs of Religious Revival Seen in France and Quebec

By Peter J. Smith

May 26, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - France, once called the Eldest Daughter of the Church, has begun to awaken from her deep secular slumber, and so has her daughter Québec. France and Québec have been the respective leaders in the European and North American continents in the culture of death, but there are definite signs of a promising renewal. Better yet, France may even have found its champion against what Pope Benedict has called "the dictatorship of relativism."

Nicolas Sarkozy, one of the most visible public ministers of France and favorite for the 2007 presidential election, has publicly broken with the most sacred tenet of secularism by calling for the Republic to actively and publicly support religion. In a book entitled La République, les religions, l'espérance [ The Republic, the Religions, and Hope], Sarkozy makes a salient call to critically examine the legacy of secularism in France, and instead calls for an active secular government that funds the work of religion in France from funding church buildings to financial aid for clergy formation to church use of public property. Sarkozy says its time for France to revise the current 1905 law mandating total separation of church and state to renew a youth that he says have no ideals.

France is experiencing a renewal based in a reawakening of Catholic identity in its people that is large part due to the burgeoning number of renewal communities. In France, over 100 charismatic renewal communities have been founded in the last 30 years. This is giving rise to the new résistance against secularism, as the renewal congregations are drawing people to Christ by bringing this Catholic identity in their situation. In an interview with Deal Hudson of the Morely Institute for Church and Culture, Bishop Rey, one of the leaders of the renewal gave this cheerful view: "The Church is not dead; she sleeps, and it is my job to wake her."

The revival and slow turn away from secularism that is starting in France explain what is otherwise unexplainable: France has the 2nd highest birthrate in the European Union. Other Catholic countries, such as Spain and Italy, which have nearly the lowest in the European Union: 16th and 17th respectively, are moving towards more secularism, a road that France is slowly rejecting.

Now that the French are beginning to man the barricades against the "dictatorship of relativism," it may mean that there is renewal for her daughter: Quebec.
etc..