Hallo
I'm from Austria and I know I have a vocation. But I have a big problem , too. Here in Austria and Germany the most communities are liberal. It isn't easy to find a cloister that is really "catholic".
I'm searching for a long time ago and the desire in my heart grows from day to day. My father confessor said, he knows not realy a good catholic community für me. It is so hard!
The other problem is, that I receive the holy communion on knees and with the mouth. Many communities don't accept this. For me is it very important, it was my free decision!
I love this forum and I love the wonderful communities in our country. Unfortunately it is impossible for me to enter, because I`m not from the states.
I'm so sad, please pray for me and for Gods will in my life.
Excuse me please for my bad and wrong english, I hope you understand me nevertheless.
God bless you
Desire
Full Version: Who Can Help Me?
What about this one, visited by one of our members in the netherlands:
http://www.abtei-st-hildegard.de/english/
it is near Frankfurt. I have never been to europe so I do not know how close that would be to you.
http://www.abtei-st-hildegard.de/english/
it is near Frankfurt. I have never been to europe so I do not know how close that would be to you.
Hello hon and welcome! Iam just wondering did you try the Cistercian abby near Munich? The oma I was staying with has a best friend who is the mother superior there...I thinks its called oberschoenenfeld and it looks really nice. I was suppose to visit the Benedictine mentioned near Frankfurt as well but it didn't happen. I did get a chance to visit St Teresa Benedicta's Carmel in Koln which is beautiful yet completely full. Lastly, its possible for someone from overseas to enter a monastery here in the states....It happens all the time. Prayers for you
http://www.abtei-oberschoenenfeld.de/
http://www.abtei-oberschoenenfeld.de/
Guten tag, Desire! Willkommen! (I took German in HS and am German/Irish/Croatian American 
) I highly recommend the Sisters of Bethlehem who have a monastery in Germany. We have a pretty long thread about them about here - http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=56995
They are different than many communities, in that they have both a Western and Eastern spirituality, with the icons and everything, (though the Carthusians, which they are very similar to with St. Bruno, also have the icons, but are more Western, with a Latin Office) Their Office and Mass are primarily in the vernacular, with some Latin and sometimes a little Herbrew & Greek, and is the Byzantine Office (though I believe it's their own particular Office, approved by Rome, as the Carthusians have their own office also) Then their Mass is the regular Mass of Pope Paul VI, but with more silence and a few different elements.
They do receive Holy Communion on the tongue, though I didn't see them kneeling, but that may be an option.
I would highly recommend visiting their monastery, and you could ask them about other good orthodox communities in Germany too - which I'm sure they could help you with.
They are truly a wonderful monastic community. And they have this discernment retreat every year at the monastery in Les Montsvoirons, near Geneva, in France, called the Evangelical Month (sounds slightly protestant, but it's not at all, totally solid Catholic).
I went in 2003, and I believe it was the best month I have ever had in my life! It's is such a beautiful retreat! I can't recommend it enough! The conferences were given in French, but all the retreatants from different nationalities had a translator for everything, and it was so incredibly organized. Each retreatant has their own cell, and lots of time in solitude. The conferences are given by the Mother Prioress, Sr. Isabelle, and a few by the Father Prior, through a speaker that each retreatant has in their cell. Then there are times when everyone is together for the Liturgy and Mass in the Church, and other times for adoration, and gatherings for talks, and a couple slideshows - I remember one was of the different places in the Holy Land, where different important events of our Faith took place, like Mount Tabor and the room where the Annunciation was supposed to have happened. And then there was a slideshow about the history of their order, the Monastic Family of Bethlehem of the Assumption of the Virgin and of St. Bruno.
The Sisters in Livingston Manor, NY invited me after my first visit to their monastery in 2003. I wasn't really sure if this was the order God was calling me to, but the Superior, Sr. Amena said this retreat is for everyone discerning their vocation, not only specifically to the Monastic Family of Bethlehem. It is such a beautiful retreat, I can hardly find the words ... I am thinking of going again this year, unless Our Lord has other plans.
There were definitely some sisters from Germany there, I remember & one discerner I remember was from Austria. I was the only American, though there were a few Canadians - but actually I felt really at home with all the people there. The sisters are incredibly friendly. And each retreatant gets what they call an "angel" whom you can talk with personally to ask questions and everything. I got Sr. Marie d'Aire, who was French but spoke English very well, and she was awesome to talk with! Then my translator was a sister from England, from one of the French monasteries.
Even if you are pretty sure you're not called to this community, I still highly recommend this retreat. It gives a whole overview of salvation history, and is great formation for the contemplative life. I remember so many things to this day, that I didn't know before the retreat. Each day covers a different part of salvation history, Sacred Scripture, and other topics relating to monastic life. It's starts with the existence of the Trinity before time & the world, the angels & their Fall, Creation of man, & our Fall, and everything that led up to God's plan of salvation in Christ, though not in every detail, just an overview - like the prophets, Abrahman .. Moses (and relates them to the contemplative life of faith & prayer) And within the month, they celebrate one day as Christmas, and then even have a Holy Week. Their celebration, if celebration is the right word .., of Good Friday in the middle of August, was really my most prayerful "Good Friday" ever. And yes, it's always in the month of August, with the feast of the Assumption right in the middle - the main patronage of their order. And they do not ask for any payment for this retreat. It is just that you have to pay for your plane ticket, but maybe it would not require a plane ticket for you, or least would be much less traveling to get to. I flew to NY and then to Gevena, and they picked me up right at the airport, with a big sign with my name on it. :j
Here is the address of the monastery in Germany, and here is a link to a page I found of them - http://www.dabakus.de/home/stmichael/ausfluege6.htm
Kloster Marienheide
Wollstein (diocese of Fulda)
D- 37284 Waldkappel
Tel: 49/(0) 56 56 923 931
God bless you in your discernment! And yes, as was mentioned before, you can join a monastery in the States even if you're not an American. I've only heard of one myself, where you are required to be a US citizen - the Passionists in Whitesville, KY. There are probably others, but each monastery/order is different. So I would write/call and ask.
) I highly recommend the Sisters of Bethlehem who have a monastery in Germany. We have a pretty long thread about them about here - http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=56995They are different than many communities, in that they have both a Western and Eastern spirituality, with the icons and everything, (though the Carthusians, which they are very similar to with St. Bruno, also have the icons, but are more Western, with a Latin Office) Their Office and Mass are primarily in the vernacular, with some Latin and sometimes a little Herbrew & Greek, and is the Byzantine Office (though I believe it's their own particular Office, approved by Rome, as the Carthusians have their own office also) Then their Mass is the regular Mass of Pope Paul VI, but with more silence and a few different elements.
They do receive Holy Communion on the tongue, though I didn't see them kneeling, but that may be an option.
I would highly recommend visiting their monastery, and you could ask them about other good orthodox communities in Germany too - which I'm sure they could help you with.
They are truly a wonderful monastic community. And they have this discernment retreat every year at the monastery in Les Montsvoirons, near Geneva, in France, called the Evangelical Month (sounds slightly protestant, but it's not at all, totally solid Catholic).
I went in 2003, and I believe it was the best month I have ever had in my life! It's is such a beautiful retreat! I can't recommend it enough! The conferences were given in French, but all the retreatants from different nationalities had a translator for everything, and it was so incredibly organized. Each retreatant has their own cell, and lots of time in solitude. The conferences are given by the Mother Prioress, Sr. Isabelle, and a few by the Father Prior, through a speaker that each retreatant has in their cell. Then there are times when everyone is together for the Liturgy and Mass in the Church, and other times for adoration, and gatherings for talks, and a couple slideshows - I remember one was of the different places in the Holy Land, where different important events of our Faith took place, like Mount Tabor and the room where the Annunciation was supposed to have happened. And then there was a slideshow about the history of their order, the Monastic Family of Bethlehem of the Assumption of the Virgin and of St. Bruno.
The Sisters in Livingston Manor, NY invited me after my first visit to their monastery in 2003. I wasn't really sure if this was the order God was calling me to, but the Superior, Sr. Amena said this retreat is for everyone discerning their vocation, not only specifically to the Monastic Family of Bethlehem. It is such a beautiful retreat, I can hardly find the words ... I am thinking of going again this year, unless Our Lord has other plans.
There were definitely some sisters from Germany there, I remember & one discerner I remember was from Austria. I was the only American, though there were a few Canadians - but actually I felt really at home with all the people there. The sisters are incredibly friendly. And each retreatant gets what they call an "angel" whom you can talk with personally to ask questions and everything. I got Sr. Marie d'Aire, who was French but spoke English very well, and she was awesome to talk with! Then my translator was a sister from England, from one of the French monasteries.
Even if you are pretty sure you're not called to this community, I still highly recommend this retreat. It gives a whole overview of salvation history, and is great formation for the contemplative life. I remember so many things to this day, that I didn't know before the retreat. Each day covers a different part of salvation history, Sacred Scripture, and other topics relating to monastic life. It's starts with the existence of the Trinity before time & the world, the angels & their Fall, Creation of man, & our Fall, and everything that led up to God's plan of salvation in Christ, though not in every detail, just an overview - like the prophets, Abrahman .. Moses (and relates them to the contemplative life of faith & prayer) And within the month, they celebrate one day as Christmas, and then even have a Holy Week. Their celebration, if celebration is the right word .., of Good Friday in the middle of August, was really my most prayerful "Good Friday" ever. And yes, it's always in the month of August, with the feast of the Assumption right in the middle - the main patronage of their order. And they do not ask for any payment for this retreat. It is just that you have to pay for your plane ticket, but maybe it would not require a plane ticket for you, or least would be much less traveling to get to. I flew to NY and then to Gevena, and they picked me up right at the airport, with a big sign with my name on it. :j
Here is the address of the monastery in Germany, and here is a link to a page I found of them - http://www.dabakus.de/home/stmichael/ausfluege6.htm
Kloster Marienheide
Wollstein (diocese of Fulda)
D- 37284 Waldkappel
Tel: 49/(0) 56 56 923 931
God bless you in your discernment! And yes, as was mentioned before, you can join a monastery in the States even if you're not an American. I've only heard of one myself, where you are required to be a US citizen - the Passionists in Whitesville, KY. There are probably others, but each monastery/order is different. So I would write/call and ask.
But I wanted to add, though the sisters did not ask for anything for this retreat, me and my family did decide to give them a donation. It was a whole month long retreat, and they even picked me up and drove me to the airport. What a great spirit they have. But really, they do not ask for anything.
Have you considered the Order of St. John? I know one of their brothers who is from Austria, and I know of an active sister who's now in France. There are brothers active in Austria, I don't know about any sisters...
Desire I will so positivly pray for you and since I don't know of any orders in europe I will pray twice as hard. Just remember that you can receive so much grace from this time of waiting and uncertainty. God bless you Desire
Marge
Marge
QUOTE(VeniteAdoremus @ Jan 29 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1179565[/snapback]
Have you considered the Order of St. John? I know one of their brothers who is from Austria, and I know of an active sister who's now in France. There are brothers active in Austria, I don't know about any sisters...
www.stjean.com
QUOTE(Marieteresa @ Jan 29 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]1179413[/snapback]
Oberschoenenfeld is near Augsburg... I´ve been there a few times...
From the pictures I say from oberschonenfeld it looks beautiful! Meine oma took so many pictures from her retreat there. Although I was told that they are usually booked. I so wish I could go and visit!
QUOTE(Desire @ Jan 29 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]1179376[/snapback]
Hallo
I'm from Austria and I know I have a vocation. But I have a big problem , too. Here in Austria and Germany the most communities are liberal. It isn't easy to find a cloister that is really "catholic".
I'm searching for a long time ago and the desire in my heart grows from day to day. My father confessor said, he knows not realy a good catholic community für me. It is so hard!
The other problem is, that I receive the holy communion on knees and with the mouth. Many communities don't accept this. For me is it very important, it was my free decision!
I love this forum and I love the wonderful communities in our country. Unfortunately it is impossible for me to enter, because I`m not from the states.
I'm so sad, please pray for me and for Gods will in my life.
Excuse me please for my bad and wrong english, I hope you understand me nevertheless.
God bless you
Desire
Welcome to Phatmass!
With your desire for the religious life, your dedication to Our Lord in the Eucharist (always receive Him on your knees and on the tongue ~ Don't let anyone tell you that you can't!): He will lead you to a good home in His time. I'm sure you are very close to His Heart and your good intentions will go a long way if you keep searching.
We will be praying for you!
Lauren
P.S.: I had a fellow sister when I was in a monastery of Poor Clares who became a citizen after being in the monastery for six years. If you are called to an American community, I'm sure there is a way for you to become a citizen. Obviously you already have the language down quite well!
P.P.S.: I lived in Germany for the first three years of my life; my father was in the Army and we were stationed in Hannou
QUOTE(Totus Tuus @ Jan 29 2007, 07:43 PM) [snapback]1179755[/snapback]
With your desire for the religious life, your dedication to Our Lord in the Eucharist (always receive Him on your knees and on the tongue ~ Don't let anyone tell you that you can't!): He will lead you to a good home in His time. I'm sure you are very close to His Heart and your good intentions will go a long way if you keep searching.
Yeah, this is the best way to receive Our Lord. I wish I could receive Him everyday like this. Only I feel I have to stand like everyone else in an ordinary church that doesn't have a communion rail .. I wish someday the Church will entirely go back to this practice. Yeah, I am really attracted to orders that receive Our Lord kneeling and on the tongue. This is really the most important moment of your life. Last time I went to St. John Cantius for Sunday Mass, I was particularly touched by the great reverence they have there, and was so happy to receive Holy Communion at the rail .. please God, bring the whole Church back to this ..I really cannot remember if the Srs of Bethlehem in Livingston Manor are kneeling or standing when they receive Holy Communion. Possibly standing. They are not behind a grill, as they do not have Papal Enclosure, to let you know. I really do like Papal Enclosure a lot myself, and receiving Holy Communion kneeling at the grill from a priest. I still really love the Monastic Family of Bethlehem however. And I do particularly like how they have a full half of an hour after Mass for thanksgiving ...
Anyway, you are in mine and everyone's prayers. God bless you!
Also, an option would be to contact the Community of the Beatitudes. I don't think they have a cloister, but they could probably send you in the right direction.
We'll be praying for you!
One of our Sisters lived in Vienna for 2 years. She might know of a cloister that would be what you're looking for. Is the cloistered life what your calling is?
We'll be praying for you!
One of our Sisters lived in Vienna for 2 years. She might know of a cloister that would be what you're looking for. Is the cloistered life what your calling is?
QUOTE(Margaret Clare @ Jan 29 2007, 08:21 PM) [snapback]1179791[/snapback]
Yeah, this is the best way to receive Our Lord. I wish I could receive Him everyday like this. Only I feel I have to stand like everyone else in an ordinary church that doesn't have a communion rail .. I wish someday the Church will entirely go back to this practice. Yeah, I am really attracted to orders that receive Our Lord kneeling and on the tongue. This is really the most important moment of your life. Last time I went to St. John Cantius for Sunday Mass, I was particularly touched by the great reverence they have there, and was so happy to receive Holy Communion at the rail .. please God, bring the whole Church back to this ..
Margaret Clare,
You may already know, but the universal "norm" for receiving Holy Communion is kneeling. No person has the authority to tell you not to receive Him kneeling, even if there is no communion rail. I understand if this is not something you are comfortable with, but I know it is often a misconception that we are not allowed to do this ~ We are!
To all
Thank you very much for your wonderful questions. I'm very blessed and I feel Jesus touched my heart .
I want to answer tomorrow, because it is late now and I must go to bed, because the Holy mass tomorrow is at 7:00 clock. It is so important for me to receive Jesus at the beginning of the day.
You are all in my prayers.
In Jesus
Desire
Thank you very much for your wonderful questions. I'm very blessed and I feel Jesus touched my heart .
I want to answer tomorrow, because it is late now and I must go to bed, because the Holy mass tomorrow is at 7:00 clock. It is so important for me to receive Jesus at the beginning of the day.
You are all in my prayers.
In Jesus
Desire
QUOTE(Totus Tuus @ Jan 30 2007, 10:36 AM) [snapback]1180258[/snapback]
Margaret Clare,
You may already know, but the universal "norm" for receiving Holy Communion is kneeling. No person has the authority to tell you not to receive Him kneeling, even if there is no communion rail. I understand if this is not something you are comfortable with, but I know it is often a misconception that we are not allowed to do this ~ We are!
But even if only one person starts doing this, then others may join too. But even if they don't, it is very good to know this is the norm, and no one can tell you you can't do this.
QUOTE(Totus Tuus @ Jan 30 2007, 10:36 AM) [snapback]1180258[/snapback]
Margaret Clare,
You may already know, but the universal "norm" for receiving Holy Communion is kneeling. No person has the authority to tell you not to receive Him kneeling, even if there is no communion rail. I understand if this is not something you are comfortable with, but I know it is often a misconception that we are not allowed to do this ~ We are!
Lauren,
I know that a couple of years ago our pastor (or maybe it was one of the deacons) read us a letter from the bishop. In the letter it said that the faithful were being asked to stand for reception of the Eucharist, as to be unified. The letter said something along the lines of: It would be good for us as a community to practice the same posture.
It was weird and no one really liked that idea very much. And in so many words our pastor said that he would not refuse Communion to someone who decided to kneel. He said that it was up to us but that he was required to read that letter to us. And he did. And the majority of people still kneel for communion at the rail - though few receive on the tongue.
Wondering if you know anything about this. I wanted to say it was a letter from the American Bishops but maybe it was just my diocese.
QUOTE(hugheyforlife @ Jan 30 2007, 07:01 PM) [snapback]1180754[/snapback]
Lauren,
I know that a couple of years ago our pastor (or maybe it was one of the deacons) read us a letter from the bishop. In the letter it said that the faithful were being asked to stand for reception of the Eucharist, as to be unified. The letter said something along the lines of: It would be good for us as a community to practice the same posture.
It was weird and no one really liked that idea very much. And in so many words our pastor said that he would not refuse Communion to someone who decided to kneel. He said that it was up to us but that he was required to read that letter to us. And he did. And the majority of people still kneel for communion at the rail - though few receive on the tongue.
Wondering if you know anything about this. I wanted to say it was a letter from the American Bishops but maybe it was just my diocese.
Hughey, the US Bishops do desire that the faithful are united in posture during the entire Eucharistic celebration.
QUOTE
Movements and Posture
42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
SOURCE
The normative posture for reception of communion in the United States follows with this (emphasis added):
QUOTE
160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.
161. If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.
SOURCE
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.
161. If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.
SOURCE
And, an additional link that people might find useful.
Hughey and Shortnun:
While I do not intend to undermine the USCCB, it must be considered that Rome has spoken on this subject, and she has the greater authority. This is Rome's response to the question of kneeling for Holy Communion.
The full letter from the Congregation for the Discipline of the Sacraments is as follows:
The above was written in response to the following letter:
These are two sources:
http://www.tldm.org/News5/Vatican_kneeling.htm
http://www.adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...The expression used by Saint Luke to describe the kneeling of Christians (theis ta gonata) is unknown in classical Greek. We are dealing here with a specifically Christian word. With that remark, our reflections turn full circle to where they began. It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture -- insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself."
- Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI (when he was a Cardinal) in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy (source: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:BP0HJ...lient=firefox-a)
God bless!
Lauren
While I do not intend to undermine the USCCB, it must be considered that Rome has spoken on this subject, and she has the greater authority. This is Rome's response to the question of kneeling for Holy Communion.
QUOTE
Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is "the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments". In view of the law that "sacred" ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 §1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
The full letter from the Congregation for the Discipline of the Sacraments is as follows:
QUOTE
Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum
Prot. n. 1322/02/L
Rome, 1 July 2002
Dear Sir,
This Congregation for Divine Worship gratefully acknowledges receipt of your letter, regarding an announced policy of denial of Holy Communion to those who kneel to receive it at a certain church.
It is troubling that you seem to express some reservations about both the propriety and the usefulness of addressing the Holy See regarding this matter. Canon 212 §2 of the Code of Canon Law states that "Christ's faithful are totally free to make known their needs, especially their spiritual ones, and their desire: to the Pastor of the Church". The canon then continues in 3: "According to their own knowledge competence and position, they have the right, and indeed sometimes the duty, to present to the sacred Pastor; their opinions regarding those things that pertain to the good of the Church".... Accordingly, in consideration of the nature of the problem and the relative likelihood that it might or might not be resolved on the local level, every member of the faithful has the right of recourse to the Roman Pontiff either personally or by means of the Dicasteries or Tribunals of the Roman Curia.
Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is "the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments". In view of the law that "sacred" ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 §1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
Please be assured that the Congregation takes this matter very seriously, and is making the necessary contacts in its regard. At the same time, this Dicastery continues to be ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again in the future.
Thanking you for your interest, and with every prayerful good wish, I am
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Monsignor Mario Marini
Undersecretary
Prot. n. 1322/02/L
Rome, 1 July 2002
Dear Sir,
This Congregation for Divine Worship gratefully acknowledges receipt of your letter, regarding an announced policy of denial of Holy Communion to those who kneel to receive it at a certain church.
It is troubling that you seem to express some reservations about both the propriety and the usefulness of addressing the Holy See regarding this matter. Canon 212 §2 of the Code of Canon Law states that "Christ's faithful are totally free to make known their needs, especially their spiritual ones, and their desire: to the Pastor of the Church". The canon then continues in 3: "According to their own knowledge competence and position, they have the right, and indeed sometimes the duty, to present to the sacred Pastor; their opinions regarding those things that pertain to the good of the Church".... Accordingly, in consideration of the nature of the problem and the relative likelihood that it might or might not be resolved on the local level, every member of the faithful has the right of recourse to the Roman Pontiff either personally or by means of the Dicasteries or Tribunals of the Roman Curia.
Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is "the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments". In view of the law that "sacred" ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 §1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
Please be assured that the Congregation takes this matter very seriously, and is making the necessary contacts in its regard. At the same time, this Dicastery continues to be ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again in the future.
Thanking you for your interest, and with every prayerful good wish, I am
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Monsignor Mario Marini
Undersecretary
The above was written in response to the following letter:
QUOTE
Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum
Prot. n. 1322/02/L
Rome, 1 July 2002
Your Excellency,
This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has recently received reports of members of the faithful in your Diocese being refused Holy Communion unless while standing to receive, as opposed to kneeling. The reports state that such a policy has been announced to parishioners. There were possible indications that such a phenomenon might be somewhat more widespread in the Diocese, but the Congregation is unable to verify whether such is the case. This Dicastery is confident that Your Excellency will be in a position to make a more reliable determination of the matter, and these complaints in any event provide an occasion for the Congregation to communicate the manner in which it habitually addresses this matter, with a request that you make this position known to any priests who may be in need of being thus informed.
The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that "sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 §1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.
Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.
Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect
+Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary
Prot. n. 1322/02/L
Rome, 1 July 2002
Your Excellency,
This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has recently received reports of members of the faithful in your Diocese being refused Holy Communion unless while standing to receive, as opposed to kneeling. The reports state that such a policy has been announced to parishioners. There were possible indications that such a phenomenon might be somewhat more widespread in the Diocese, but the Congregation is unable to verify whether such is the case. This Dicastery is confident that Your Excellency will be in a position to make a more reliable determination of the matter, and these complaints in any event provide an occasion for the Congregation to communicate the manner in which it habitually addresses this matter, with a request that you make this position known to any priests who may be in need of being thus informed.
The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that "sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 §1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.
Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.
Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,
Sincerely yours in Christ,
Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect
+Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary
These are two sources:
http://www.tldm.org/News5/Vatican_kneeling.htm
http://www.adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"...The expression used by Saint Luke to describe the kneeling of Christians (theis ta gonata) is unknown in classical Greek. We are dealing here with a specifically Christian word. With that remark, our reflections turn full circle to where they began. It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture -- insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself."
- Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI (when he was a Cardinal) in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy (source: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:BP0HJ...lient=firefox-a)
God bless!
Lauren
Good morning! I've been surfing the Internet a little since I woke up and found this awesome article from the EWTN document library
The full article is here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STANKNEL.TXT
-It's a really good read, even though it focuses primarily on kneeling during the Consecration, and not as much on kneeling for the reception of Holy Communion
Anyway, here is a part that is pertinent to our discussion:
Statement in church bulletin:
Father Fessio’s answer:
Lauren
P.S.: I forgot to mention "Emphasis mine" in the previous post (I don't want to misrepresent the original documents). Emphasis is mine in this post as well
P.P.S.: I have heard a lot of mention of people being uncomfortable doing something that the rest of the parish is not doing. This is kind of what that is addressing, in addition to adding to my previous post.
The full article is here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STANKNEL.TXT
-It's a really good read, even though it focuses primarily on kneeling during the Consecration, and not as much on kneeling for the reception of Holy Communion
Anyway, here is a part that is pertinent to our discussion:
Statement in church bulletin:
QUOTE
"Moreover it is a communal prayer, a prayer of the community even if it is proclaimed
by the presider. As a communal prayer it calls for all to take the same bodily posture.
At the heart of the sacrament of unity (which the eucharist is) we would not want to be
doing different things."
by the presider. As a communal prayer it calls for all to take the same bodily posture.
At the heart of the sacrament of unity (which the eucharist is) we would not want to be
doing different things."
Father Fessio’s answer:
QUOTE
Precisely. But our unity is not merely with those around us in the congregation at any
particular Mass. The "community" of which we are a part is the entire Church
celebrating a common rite. The "sacrament of unity" unites us with the whole Church,
not just our fellow parishioners. This is why the "regulation of the sacred liturgy
depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws
may determine, on the bishop" (Vatican II, <Constitution on the Liturgy>, pare. 22, #1)
so that "no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in
the liturgy on his own authority" (Ibid., pare 22, §2).
The canon of the Mass is a "communal prayer" in that the people are to join their hearts
to the prayer of the priest, which he offers as both the representative of Christ and in
unity with the community— that is, the whole Church, past, present and future. This
prayer is not simply the prayer of any particular assembly of people.
particular Mass. The "community" of which we are a part is the entire Church
celebrating a common rite. The "sacrament of unity" unites us with the whole Church,
not just our fellow parishioners. This is why the "regulation of the sacred liturgy
depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws
may determine, on the bishop" (Vatican II, <Constitution on the Liturgy>, pare. 22, #1)
so that "no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in
the liturgy on his own authority" (Ibid., pare 22, §2).
The canon of the Mass is a "communal prayer" in that the people are to join their hearts
to the prayer of the priest, which he offers as both the representative of Christ and in
unity with the community— that is, the whole Church, past, present and future. This
prayer is not simply the prayer of any particular assembly of people.
Lauren
P.S.: I forgot to mention "Emphasis mine" in the previous post (I don't want to misrepresent the original documents). Emphasis is mine in this post as well
P.P.S.: I have heard a lot of mention of people being uncomfortable doing something that the rest of the parish is not doing. This is kind of what that is addressing, in addition to adding to my previous post.
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