When is the discernment of religious life, not discernment of religious life? This has been a question that I have been asking myself rather recently, and I have found myself pondering on it lately. I have seen a great number of young girls who have been discerning the religious life. Many of them are in high school or college, with a few beyond that even. I have seen several that thought they had a call, but have decided that it should not be further sought after for one reason or another. I have also seen, on the other hand, many young ladies who have become obsessed with religious life and becoming a Sister. Now, it is very good to have a desire for the religious life and have interest in it, but it is not healthy to have an obsession with it, just as it is not healthy to have an obsession with anything. Holy things are good, but an obsession is not healthy, and is really a great hindrance to becoming holy.

How can you tell the difference from true discernment of religious life from obsession? It is not easy to decipher either, unless you are spiritually mature. First, we must seek the Kingdom to find where the King desires us to be in His Kingdom. In these matters, I can speak from my own experience. Now, it really has not been until recently that I have felt some maturation of my soul. I would not even dare to say that my soul is totally mature even, but step by step, it is ascending.

Until quite recently, I have been an immature, and somewhat obsessed soul in discerning the religious life. I was there for the praise sometimes that I would get. Now, it was good holy praise, but if taken in and fed to the ego, it is no longer holy. For example, a friend would ask if I was still thinking about becoming a nun, and I would simply reply yes. They would say things like "Good!" "We'll be praying for you!" "That's great!" and the like. Now, not that any of these things are bad things to say, but if not taken with great humility, these bits of sugar feed the ego until it is inflated and one becomes very proud of their 'special' calling.

Now, do not get me wrong here. The call to the religious life is a precious and unique call! It truly is a special and very sacred thing to behold! It must be something revered like Mary's call was revered. How many people knew of her miraculous calling to be the Mother of God? Very few indeed! Her most chaste spouse, St. Joseph, surely knew as we are told this in the Scriptures. Elizabeth knew as well, for God had revealed it to her. They were told as to give glory to God. It was revealed only to those that needed to in God's great plan of salvation. Jesus Himself did not reveal the greatness of his mother on earth. Likewise, our calling needs to be protected and revered. Our calling is a great gift from God and ought not to be misused.

Still, there are more signs of obsession. One of which that I have seen in many young women, along with myself, is a desire to know as many Sisters and communities as possible, and when in conversation show off this knowledge of communities. Now, it is one thing if someone is asking for information or if anyone has been there and there is a response to that in the spirit of informing another. But if one thinks the more Religious they know makes them more knowledgeable about religious life in general and will speak only about 'their' community, it can be that pride has snuck into your calling. This matter though, is still touchy and can vary from case to case, as I am not totally done thinking about the matters discussed above.

Along the same lines as above though, is that once one finds a community that God is leading them towards, suddenly, without even enterance or acceptance to the community, they find themselves to be part of the community. If the community is Franciscan, suddenly, they are Franciscan too! They must only read Franciscan books and about Franciscan Saints! Oh! They must now find a favorite Franciscan Saint! Now, they must get Franciscan things! Medals, jewelry, statues, holy cards, books! They must get to know every Franciscan they see, or even seek them out, and let them know that they too will be a Franciscan! There is just so much, and they must immerse themselves in it all! Surely, does this not sound obsessive, even to the common man? Discerning the religious life calls us to detachment, not attachment. We must continue to grow spiritually. We cannot limit ourselves to one spirituality of one order or community. Is anyone ever really truly Franciscan then? Yes. When one enters the order. But, through and through, we must first seek to become holy. Becoming one order or another does not effect how holy we are. Our human tastes like to take over and we find ourselves full of pride. How many religious have you met that take great pride in being one order or another? Sure, they will talk about how wonderful and holy the Saints of the order are and that the spirituality is beautiful, but all Saints are holy and wonderful and things that lead you close to Christ are beautiful, too. But there is no pride. To be holy, one must conquer pride.

Now, I am not saying it is not good to seek holy things in life, but we must seek them maturely and with great spiritual discernment and detachment. Great things come when the soul is mature. There are many other thoughts about this subject that have still yet to be thought about and considered. There are a great number of delicacies in this matter and need to be handled with care. I do not mean to upset anyone with my words, but please take them with a grain of humility and self-reflection. I too am guilty of committing these faults in my discernment. Please pray for me, and for holy and fervent priests and religious.

Self examination is always painful, but to grow one must strip oneself of pretenses. You have to go humbly before the Lord. When there is more you, then service, then something is wrong.
Religious life is no easy matter. It is not for children. That is why aspirancy programs that included 14 year olds are a thing of the past.
You are on the brink of self discovery, continue the journey. Be gentle on yourself as you grow. No one is a finished product before you step over the convent entrance.
Often young people are caught up in the fantasy of religious life. And you are so right about the obsessivness. Hey, I did it myself, so I know. But eventually you realize that religious life is really all about Jesus and service to others in His name.
Interesting thoughts!

I think that you raise some excellent points and I know that most of us have probably also become a little too "hooked" on the idea of becoming a certain kind of nun. I think that problems arise when we make our entire life hinge on becoming a nun. We either hold off on school completely (without a good reason, such as you know you are entering soon and do not want to acquire the debt) or only go to school as a "penance" (moaning and groaning about how hard it is to "be in the world"). Then there are those who do have that kind of religious mania and need to have everything and know everything related to ______ Order. It can be a sign of immaturity, or someone totally new to the process of discernment or the faith. I do not look down upon them for it, but I think it is kind of imbalanced and God will work with them to mature, if they are open to him.

I think another issue that goes with this is the need to appear "holy" or "nunly" or whatever. We dress a certain way. We act a certain way because that is how we think a nun would/should act, but we do not really know. We delight in being praised for being so "recollected" in church, or something of that nature. Or we latch on to one person and want to be completely like them and we place them on a pedestal; that is a real set up for disappointment. Almost everything we do relates to religion in some way; we snap on those who suggest that we should "lighten-up" a little bit; how dare they question our devotion and avoidance of sin! (whereas they see us as a little too fixated on religion!)

Instead of realizing it is a call to be a servant of the Church, we act like we are royalty (clericalism or elitism) and worthy of esteem and praise (and are bothered if we are not, even though we may say we feel a call to serve). We develop a kind of arrogance, pride, intellectual know-it-all-ism, and are not open to hearing that perhaps we should discern other aspects of our vocation such as the married life or the single life. We become completely set on being a nun and if we are not a nun that is all that there is in life to be... so there! If we go on a discernment retreat we judge those around us as not being "good enough".


I think that many of us have been there in one way or another or experience those who are there, therefore I think it is of the utmost importance to have a good, balanced spiritual life, be someone who knows how to have fun in life, and who does not lord their religion over others.

I think this is related, at least in my case in discerning for the priesthood, to clericalism. I think time, maturity, and most of all prayer bring these out. If it is the Lord's will, it will last.

Hi FutureNunJMJ!
There sure is a lot of food for thought in your post...the whole concept of being obsessed might have to do with youthful immaturity. I can recall when my kids were in middle and high school and we were lurching from one fad to another.
It can make person who seems obsessed awfully hard to be around for a while! Usually, in time, "this too shall pass". Either the person tires of "discerning" and moves on to the next thing to fixate upon, or they grow up a bit, settle down and continue discerning in a more productive way. I think God probably laughs at some of our silly behavior, at least I hope so!

I could be wrong, but obsession seems to be a phase of youth anyway, so how much better if the young person is obsessing about God and religious life instead of about sex or drugs or even things like role playing games (my brother was into these) or Star Wars (my nephew) or video games etc.

Sometimes obsession is just a step along the way to realization. And you are so right that maturity is what is needed to enter religious life - the good thing is that this seems to occur somewhat naturally for most people over time.

I wouldn't be worrying too much about pride showing up here - it will surely get knocked out along the way as the discerner eventually realizes that nothing can be done without God's grace and that having a vocation is a gift, not an achievement.

I thought I was getting obsessed, so I asked God to show me what to do or else I would quit discerning because I would think "the call" was something I was making up... don't know if that's kosher, but it worked for me. God answered my prayer and showed me the next step in my discernment and all the doors opened for me to continue discerning in a deeper way (postulancy). So, I guess me thinking "the call" was an obsession ultimately brought the focus back to God. So that's good.

Did someone say Star Wars?!?!

As a teen I was OBESSED with horses! Couldn't pass a bookstore without buying a book on horses! Now that I have my own horse, well I still enjoy horses very much but to the point where I was as a teen.
as for my own discernment, I don't feel obessed about it, just love God overwhelmly!

Jessica
http://xanga.com/adiscerningsoul

alicemary....what you said was so true. You could be a vocation director

sr. betsy

You could be a vocation director, too

On a serious note, you are right, the call is to be a servant not one who should be treated like royalty. You are going to make a wonderful religious.

sr betsy

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One thought: Saint Therese.

It's good to look at your motives as you look at religious life. It's easier to get obsessed today when you sense you may be called because you have open to you so many communities because of the internet. When I felt called by God to be a religious, there was no internet. I knew the sisters I joined from high school. I wrote to the Felicians and I looked up the Carmelites in the phone book. Things were much easier, I think. And there wasn't the internet world to affirm your choice of a vocation either. In the real world there are a few people who are happy that you are going to the convent, but most I encountered were rather indifferent. So it wasn't very prideful to tell others of your vocation.
Our age of technology can add complications even to discerning God's call.
The age-old methods: prayer, reading the Scriptures, becoming familiar with the documents and teachings of the Church, knowing the lives of the Saints, these will help our discernment be discernment and God will wean us from the weaknesses toward which our nature is inclined.

Although I agree with many of your negatives about the Internet and technology, if these things were not in existence, I would not now be entering Carmel in England. I have never visited the monastery where I am going because I discerned via Internet and email. I am a mature vocation (age 55) and although I wrote via snail mail to 60 US Carmels, the majority of them rejected me because of my age. If I had not found the Wolverhampton convent on the Internet, I might never have thought it possible at my age that I would be accepted into a Carmelite monastery. Although personal visits are best, I agree, sometimes we just can't physically visit where we need to go, and in this case, the Internet and email are wonderful substitutes. I know that I have a fondness for technology because I was a computer teacher for many years, and not everyone agrees with me, but I think that God provides many ways for us to discern, and in this day and age, technology is just one of them.

FutureNunJMJ,

As a soul matures it will appreciate religious life for what it is. But to say that an obsession with religious life is detrimental (not that you said that) isn't right. I think most of the women I have seen who might be a little obsessed with religious life have 1) never actually lived it, and 2) are young! As a person matures, she can have the same joyful attitude towards religious life, but her giddy, girly feelings will be replaced with a deeper joy, and her experience of religious life will replace her preconceived ideas. And she'll still find joy! Our Lord doesn't want us to be sombre about our vocation, whatever it may be - there's a difference between the solemn attitude and the humble one. Humility requires a joyful attitude, and a constant recognition of what God has done for you, not what you are doing for God. If the knowledge of many communities and religious is being used by a woman for the wrong reasons (showing off, as you say), that's between her and God. It could be perfectly innocent... say, the girl lives in an area that has lots of religious and she's blessed to have a relationship with them all. There's nothing wrong with that.

I know this post is kind of all over the place, sorry! I'm no expert (everyone knows that ) but every soul has its own motivation for its actions, and its own union with Our Lord that no one else can see.

I suppose that we could compare it to being in love. At first you are totally smitten and totally taken up with the person, but after that intense emotion wears off you still have the deep down love left and it is more steady and not as "all over the place" as before.

That's kind of what I was trying to say. Unfortunately, I don't have the gift of making things "short and sweet"

Also, I think that when someone, especially someone who's young. first becomes interested in something, they want to learn everything about it, and you could say they're obsessed. I don't think it's a bad thing. Once they feel they're familiar with it, they'll stop voraciously consuming information and will no longer be obsessed.

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Good point.

Wow... lots of input...

Well, I do understand that the nature of youth can be a bit unstable about things and that different circumstances create different scenarios. I guess a bit of my youthfulness has worn off, but at the same time I guess I need to work on the log in my own eye. It can be very difficult for me to deal with immaturity sometimes, but I am quite glad that there are others to put my thinking in check, to realize that I'm looking out in a rather narrow way. But, I am still pondering about many of these things still. Maybe I need to check my own pride too.
Even in society in general, it is quite easy to get somewhat obsessed about things and it is still considered normal nor life-threatening. I guess I need to take a break from working with youth and maybe even young adults for a little.
Thanks for the input and thoughts

ahh, but there is something so wonderful, so pure about youth. It is such a short time in the epic of ones life. There is a certain sparkle and joy of life in young people that is awesome. I wish we could maintain some of that, before we become jaded with time and age.
Working with the young has to be both frustrating and rewarding. Don't abandon them unless you really feel you need a change. They need positive role models in their lives.
Obsessions in any form are not so good for one. Some people just tend to be obsessive over certain things(like length of habit or its color) and may forget the real reason they are looking at religious life.
I have every expectation that you are moving in the right direction, and the path you are taking will lead to your life's fullfillment.
God Bless,
Alicemary

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Yes, it's fun to talk about habits and charism and fun little particulars and that's okay, but as long as there is fidelity -and there needs to be a devotion to this for the sake of one's soul and the community- it's important to keep that in proper perspective as not the ultimate and highest reason for becoming a nun! And, it's true, there is such a zeal in youth! So much potential! Most everyone struggles with temptation to some petty sins like those FutureNun listed above. Please try not to let that get you down. You're in a beautiful position to encourage proper order and to maybe warn agains some of those selfish distractions and temptations in a kind and gentle way.

ok i'll play the bad guy. from what you listed, i don't see them as being "too much". i'm sure it's because i do a lot of those things, and i know many who do. for me i think i do take part in those things, but it seems like i keep them to myself. i shy from those social "praise" situations, and although i like meeting Catholics from all over the community and talking about who we may know in common and how it's such a small "Catholic" world. i see them more as signs, whether i like them or not, especially the ones that get repetitive. i'd really rather be talking about my vocation and what i should do, and which order would be best for me. as i discern, i want to explore as much as possible and learn as much as i can. not just about orders, but including the Catholic faith. i like to learn new devotions and about medals and holy objects, so that i can find what is best suited for me or if any actually "work". not because i think it will lead me to an answer, but because that's my personality. i'm thinking the big ego and lack of humility thing is separate, so i wouldn't really tell anyone to cut back on the things you mentioned.. like you said, i would consider it more of a maturity issue.

so while reading your post i was waiting for the negative signs that would help me to avoid or help others to avoid obsession, but most of them seemed acceptable to me to grow in holiness and foster one's vocation. i'm sure anything can be taken too far, but as far as obsession, i haven't noticed this relationship with the people who seem to be lacking humility in certain areas. that is to say, if i stopped all the things you mentioned, i'd still be putting my foot in my mouth and making the same mistakes, except maybe even worse.

please don't take this as an attack. it seems like i'm the only one so perhaps i'm not seeing something. or maybe i just haven't met someone who is losing sight of their vocation and is becoming more of a "groupie" due to these things. in either case i'd feel uncomfortable making that judgment to begin with..

An other thing that have seen is manipulating'signs'. I truely believe that God works through signs, and that asking for them is a good way to get awnsers. But then there are people, who want religious life more than to know God's will, and ask for signs they know they will get. Just my add-on.

wishful thinking rather than God's will? somehow i think God knows the person will do this and so plans accordingly? or am i wishfully thinking too much? or maybe we shouldn't worry so much in the first place..

i say, more praise, more cheerleading for them and religious, more medals, more love, more power. let the kids go crazy for God. i'd rather be put away and be treated for God than for anything else out there.. here, have a cookie!

Hey Angela,

I was going to say, those are some very interesting points you bring up about discernment vs. obsession. I would say the biggest difference would be that obsession would be a focus on what interests us (like a hobby, etc) vs. discernment - what are God's interests?

Anyone who knows me personally, knows I have a long history of going through different obsessions my whole life - Pippi Longstocking :D, horses (same here, DiscerningSoul! :D ), running ('til the knees gave out!), everything Irish/Celtic and many other things.

But what I've found since I began discerning a few years back, is that it has been instead a time of leaving of obsessions behind / gradually letting go of one's self. Like in the beginning, I remember I would go to pray the Rosary in a chapel but then come back to my dorm room and want to blast Jethro Tull or some other Classic Rock band .. Then I gradually let go of those things.

Of course, a sort of obsession could arise in discerning religious life, like how you were saying with different orders and everything. I'd say that's no problem really especially for young people - better to obsess about those kinds of things than others, as Annie was saying.

But yeah, I get what you're saying about the difference between obsession and discernment. Discernment would be more focusing on God and what He wants, and then the rest, like which order / what color habit, etc. just falls into place from there.

That's funny philosobrat, about how often we act as though people should treat us as royalty.

When I withdrew from college, I was terribly proud about how I felt the Lord calling me and about how I don't have to get a degree to be a cloistered nun. Of course that was mixed in with a dislike for school that I had since junior high/ high school (which was well founded - so much of high school is a huge waste of time, I highly disliked it) I argued with the college Dean about it and also my academic advisor, about not needing a degree for contemplative religious life ... not really the spirit of humility and obedience (though what I was arguing was true! ) The Lord had and still has a whole lot of work to do in me ..

But yeah, Angela, that's really interesting, about keeping one's vocation hidden - like how only a few knew of Our Lady's special vocation. I definitely like the idea of that. I'm happy to just keep my vocation within my family and a few friends at this point. Before we know it anyway, we'll all be in eternity and we'll have lots of time then to tell about our vocations with each other. It has been pretty incredible however learning of so many different people discerning here on phatmass, and all the unique vocations and religious communities out there, thanks to everyone here! God bless!

I think that it depends on what the person's charism is. I know that for me I 'let the whole world know' but it's to be a witness. Here (particularly among my classmates) the idea of someone becoming a nun is absolutely alien. Sometimes I get a lot of flack because of it, but I think that it's what God is calling me to do.


With regards to obsession, I know that for me sometimes I go on about x order, person, or thing because it's important to me and it lets the other person know, but to actually talk about God and who He is for me is too close to my heart. I just can't do it. For example, there is a priest who means a lot to me, and my sisters can probably testify that I go on about him. But for me to think of him, I think of all the awesome, wonderful things God has shown me and done through him. I know that this priest is human, and there is no way that he is the centre of my world or whatever. But to speak of what God has done through him... It's just sooo personal. My life has completely changed because of it. If I start to talk about it I won't let the other person know anything because I'll just be like "God is totally awesome. He is soo good... (trail off into prolonged period of silence)."

Yeah, so, I don't think that I expressed myself particularly well there, but I hope that you get the point.

The society surrounding the person (and I think the things that FutureNun spoke about are more likely to be found amongst girls/women than boys/men) can play a large role. I know that living in the Netherlands has given me a nice big dollop of realism and humility - my parish priest and the people at church here may think it's really very wonderful that I'm discerning, but they'll also be the first to take me down a peg or two if they believe I'm strutting a bit. It's one of the things I really love about the Netherlands: no-one mollycoddles you!

Really? then what's up with not wanting anyone to know (or not wanting us to tell anyone, at least).

Sometimes telling everybody about your discernment can harm you. It isn't easy to listen for God if your ears are ringing with other people's opinions, criticisms, or exclamations. There is a reason why it was customary for the prophets to retreat into the desert silence when they needed to pray particularly hard about something. Jesus Himself was frequently to be found praying in 'a lonely place'.

Wanting to be a witness is a good thing. (I told an atheist classmate that I planned to be a nun in order to challenge him a little.) But our witness will surely be better if we concentrate on who we are now, rather than on talking about who we will become. Your vocation doesn't begin on the day you enter the postulancy or the seminary or wherever. Our lives now aren't just a preamble to the 'real thing'. If you talk about your discernment all the time you may start living only for the future and forget the importance of this moment.

Excellent point (above) a vocation isn't a nine to five 20-65- then you retire type of thing, it is something you do your whole life, no matter where you are.

Hey, well said CA! :j Yeah, I mean I don't mind telling a lot people I'm discerning religious life - letting your light shine before men. I'm happy all my extended family knows of it, approving or not, and then my friends and people from college, and my parish community. Also, when I used to work at this little Irish shop - if people would ask me what I'm doing, I would be more than happy to share with them about my discernment.

But what CA is saying here about your ears ringing with so many other people's opinions, etc can be so true. But also, what I was saying regarding being hidden is more, like when I am at the point of entering the particular order where, God willing and with His grace, I will remain until my death, I personally feel I would rather just let a limited number of people know this, ie my physical address and everything .

But yeah, that's a great point, that your vocation is now ..

My life is an instant,
An hour which passes by;
My life is a moment
Which I have no power to stay.
You know, O my God,
That to love You here on earth -
I have only today. ~ St. Therese

It's funny how socially unacceptable it is to ask an aquaintance the details of his or her courtship with another person and how acceptable it IS to ask someone about their courtship with the LORD.

It is important, I think, that we be prudent in the information we share with others about our discernment. The more we speak with others about the intimacies of our relationship with Christ, the less and less intimate they become.

So true, especially the second part of this post. It's like someone with a spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend blabbing all the details of their relationship. Neither spiritual exhibitionism or spiritual voyerism are very pretty.

nevermind

Yeah, Maria raised a valid point. I don't tell everyone, mostly just the people in my family and those at school or specific times that I think it will witness. Also, it's not 'this is what I will be', but rather what I believe God is calling me to.
I've had people tell me that it's totally ridiculous, and then I've had weird experiences such as this one: My sisters and I were volunteering at a Catholic family camp/retreat centre. About the middle of the week, we were chatting with a mom and she asked us what we wanted to 'be'. Soo... first she asked my oldest sister, then the next one, then she came to me. She started to ask me in my turn, but suddenly interrupted herself and said, 'Oh, but I know what you're going to be - a nun.' I was flabbergasted. I mean, I hadn't even said anything about it.
With regards to opinions influencing discernment, I have been graced with an independent temperament and also the ability to spend lots of time in silent prayer (particularly ADORATION!). I believe that it is part of what I am called to do to witness. I do agree that it is something to beware of.
I also agree that there should not be too much emphasis on future rather than present (you seem to be full of wisdom!) We are called to be Saints NOW, not just when we are 'old and wise and about to die'. We are called to welcome God's grace and live it to the full now: "Behold, now is a very acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation."