I am not sure if anyone looked into this Carmel but I was told a couple of years ago that they weren't in union with Rome. That they were connected with some sede-vacantist groups or St. Pius X groups. A friend of mine shead a bit of light on the matter after receiving an email from the community. They stated that they are in union with Rome and aren't connected to the two above groups. Iam confused on there position in the church....Here is a quote from an email that I received from them. Can someone please explain what this actually means?


We are under no ecclesiastical censures or excommunication. However, our status with our local bishop is indeed irregular, currently with no formal approval, as we await the special plan and decisions expected from the papal commission Ecclesia Dei regarding traditional Catholic communities. An arrangement without compromise to holy tradition is currently in the plans of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the work of Ecclesia Dei, and is indeed expected soon. We can add that we enjoy the friendship and support of sympathetic priests and bishops throughout the world.


Their community is very beautiful, they have TLM, wear full habit and make religious goods.


Edited by moderator: Link edited (until further clarification of the order's status). --Era Might

BEAUTIFUL. If I was a woman I'd sure like to join that place! It looks so beautiful. I don't see anything wrong with them. Even if they are with the SSPX, that isn't a problem in my opinion. On the other hand, sede vecantism is a big NO-NO.

They aren't connected with SSPX nor sede-vacantist groups.

They are the sisters you were asking me about I think. They are in town here and recieve their sacraments from Servants of the Holy Family religious community Edited by moderator: Link edited (not sure about the status of the order). --Era Might
Their intentions are really good and I think one would benefit greatly from joining this community over most other Novus Ordo church orders. I don't agree with them theologically on some key points, but for what they are I wouldn't mind recommending them. There are some very questionable things regarding their priest from SHF, so I'm told from people who have attended his parish. I'd be careful with him.

What are these "very questionable things"?

It seems to be a problem for the holy father and a sign of disobedience.... aren't you entering the seminary? It would probably be advisable to be really careful about offering verbal support to or of SSPX.

Marieteresa, I would ask Gemma about them, as I remember reading somewhere that she has the right info on them. I'm pretty sure the major problem is that their chaplains are not in union with Rome. They also neither follow the approved 1990 or 1991 Constitutions of the OCD nuns and are not officially part of the Order - thus they are Sisters of Carmel, and not Discalced Carmelite Nuns. They also do not take Solemn Vows, but Perpetual Vows, as can be read on their site (Solemn Vows can only be taken by nuns in Orders, eg OCDs, Domincans, Benedictines, etc) All the OCD nuns in the US, they are not listed: http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_usa.htm

Their Carmel was a break off from another OCD Carmel in the late 80's during a very difficult time for the OCD nuns. They desired to keep the old observance of 1581. But in 1990, John Paul II approved the 1581s, with very minor changes.

Regarding whether a community is in union with the Church or not, it's important to follow what Rome says on a particular community, and not what the individual community says about themselves. Again, I would ask Gemma about them, and keep them in prayer.

I think someone here said that the CO OCDs were on the path to "regularization." They were founded without any diocesan permissions, hence the "irregular" status.

The biggest problem is Fr. Ward, who founded both the Servants of the Holy Family and the Carmelites. I have a letter from the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" regarding the situation. I hope a few years of prayers for the two groups have helped.

I keep saying that a group may claim to be in communion with Rome, but if ROME doesn't see it that way, then they're not. The only way to be in communion with Rome is to work through the diocese, and the bishop notifies Rome of the group's existence.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

iam seriously wondering what this arrangement is that was mentioned...maybe this is the path of regulation that was mentioned.

An arrangement without compromise to holy tradition is currently in the plans of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, and the work of Ecclesia Dei

Call the diocese and ask them about the community. I did, and they faxed me some papers concerning them. Maybe it will help you. It did me.

I don't know the details, but I can tell you that everybody in the Colorado Springs diocese (from what I hear) say they are in schism. They are a wonderful order of sisters and hold a theology much like that of the SSPX, but are an independent order. With the alleged "motu proprio" coming out I would imagine that they might be closer to joining back with the Vatican but right now they are still in an "irregular" situation, so to speak. I would recommend them without hesitation, if it weren't for the questions surrounding Fr. Ward.

If you want you can email me about it. It's not really too appropriate to talk about someone in public like this. Besides, its kind of hard to prove anything with hard evidence. All I've got is the word of a good number of people who have attended his parish, and the word of someone who once attended his seminary but eventually left. I trust these people but I admit it's not really enough to incriminate a person.

We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=

We all got that. We're trying to figure out what's meant by "irregular".

Pham,


This is the e-mail I received from them regarding their stance:




I'm inquiring further into what they mean by certain statements in this e-mail.

God bless,
Lauren

Irregular as in not under the local bishop, and founded without the approval of the prior general.

Linking this to the Daughter's of Mary thread with more on this Carmel and questions about it.

oh, hello! already linked a little earlier!

But guys, if you're looking for a Traditional Carmel it's best to stick with Valparaiso, as it looks for sure now that they are planning a new foundation. At Buffalo they got up 27/28 nuns before the foundation in Brooklyn, so I'm sure Valparaiso will be able to accept more, as there's 23 there now.

Also then there's the Carmels in Buffalo, NY - Alexandria, SD - & Brooklyn, NY - that pray the Office in Latin with Gregorian Chant and everything.

Then there's the plans for the Traditional Carmel near the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

So I'd say it's best to stick with these, and then just keep this Carmel in CO in prayer.

+

Wow. I'm very concerned that you state SSPX isn't a problem when these members (Their
"bishops" at least) have excommunicated themselves... Seems to me you might need to re-think this. And at the very least, people should know this attitude isn't acceptable from a faithful Catholic

Just because they aren't SSPX or sedevacantist does not mean they are in communion with Rome. There are a great deal of independent priests/orders out there that are very similar to both/either SSPX or Sedevacantist but are not attached to either philosophy in particular. There are such individuals/orders in every American state and any number of countries. SSPX and Sedevacantists and SSPV are by far not the only "rad-trad" groups out there not in communion with the Vatican.

But I would add that, just like a number of these small groups, with the so-called "motu proprio" supposedly coming out later today (according to yet again the latest date given) this group in particular just might gain communion with the Vatican because of it. Events following the MP would be worth following in this regard as it will be very telling on a number of levels.

oops, should've remembered not to post links like that. sorry

also remember that the sspx would claim that they are also in such an "irregular" situation as they claim they were never truly excommunicated and are still lawfully in communion (unless this has changed recently, I haven't been completely up on my reading of the sspx of late.) So we need to be careful not to excuse someone just because they don't admit to being in schism or not in communion with Rome.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf






O.K, correct me if I'm wrong here: I was under the impression that the Magisterium made the statement that the bishops who consecrated their own bishops within SSPX (including Lefebvre, of course) were self-excommunicated, but that the organization as a whole was not excommunicated (unlike some organizations which have just been entirely excommunicated a a group). Might have had something to do with vincible v. invincible ignorance on the part of those who participated in their Masses (priests and lay faithful, etc.)
?

I met a lot of "independent" church-goers on pilgrimage in Chartres. They weren't affiliated with SSPX, but their churches were also not recognized by the local bishop, as you're pointing out.

Oh, brother.

Looking at this issue from an entirely practical point of view, with no strong opinions either way, I think that it would be very unwise for anyone to enter an order whose status is doubtful at present or which has been doubtful in the past.

1) The order may or may not be ultimately be acknowledged, accepted, recognized, ratified, whatever, by the local bishop, diocese, the Vatican.

2) If it is not, the order will remain schismatic, "out", whatever. Appealing to a limited pool of potential entrants, the group will be forever having to explain and defend its irregular status.

3) If is it accepted, there will inevitably be some individuals within that order who cannot accept the terms of the reconciliation. They may leave, taking others with them, which may split up close friends, and include some of the best and brightest. Or a portion of the order may spontaneousely revert to Rome. This is what has happened to CSMI (I'm never sure of their correct title in Latin-the blue-habited teaching sisters in Spokane who recently split, with 15 leaving, including the mother superior). Some within the irregular order won't leave, or can't leave, but may forever remain disgruntled about the terms of the acceptance and create an ongoing spirit of discord in the community.

4) As others (Margaret Clare) have mentioned recently, there are a lots of trad-type communities in the fold to chose from, of the types that the 'massers tend to favor--habits, Latin, Gregorian chant, the works.

As far as I know that's correct. I'm not sure if it applies to all priests or not but would tend to think it does. It definitely cannot apply to the faithful who attend their masses because as its an order no lay person is actually a part of that order. They may "allegedly" incur sin by attending their masses and sacraments but the excommunication itself applied only to those within the order. Now, many individuals who fully support the order and defend it publicly and disagree with the Vatican on many issues that the SSPX takes objection to, these people probably also have "supposedly" received some sort of automatic excommunication due to their infidelity to Rome. But that would be on a case-by-case basis I would assume.

yep and such groups can be some of the best, or some of the worst. We have an amazing (from what I know) priest that isn't attached to any order in particular but holds the sedevacantist philosophy. We know people who go their and who love him. And then we've got Fr. Ward who has some history in the other direction. So its hit or miss with them.

CMRI - Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae. And that had been an issue for awhile I think. Our bishop gave them time to reconcile but it wasn't happening.

thanks, GChild


My suspicion is that the return-to-the-fold branch of this congregation is going to thrive, like other trad habited teaching types, such as Nashville, Mary Mo Eucharist, etc. The new branch, actually, new GROUP, should list with IRL, CMSRW, etc. and get their own website in which they make everything very Clear...

maybe they will. Doesn't really matter to me either way. I'm sad that they left, but happy that they won't be around to confuse the faithful who attend our churches.

During my search for a Carmelite contemplative community, I came across a website that had Calced Carmelite communities---not St. Teresa of Avila's Discalced Carmelites. Does anybody know if these Carmelites have papal approval?

Also, I heard that SSPX people don't acknowledge any pope who succeded Pope Pius X (so they don't think that Pope Benedict XVI is pope), and that that is why they were excommunicated. Is that true?

No, Sedevacantists such as myself believe that. SSPX is an entirely different deal. They accept all the popes, but don't listen to them regarding many issues. The leaders of that order are excommunicated for having gone along with ordinations of priests without the Vatican's approval. They reject a great deal of the theology that has come from the popes and from Vatican II but they accept them as valid popes.

I saw this site, and I would assume they are not in communion with Rome. Usually traditionalist organizations (religious orders, indult parishes, etc) who are in communion with the Church are VERY VERY open with that fact for fear of coming off as schismatic or sedevacantist. The only American Carmelite order I know of that is in communion with the Church is Clear Creek Monastery in Wyoming, and that's for men. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Clear Creek is in Oklahoma, and they are Benedictines But you are right about them being totally in union with Holy Mother Church.

Hey, Carmelitess - yeah, the Calced Carmelites are simply another order - definitely with papal approval and everything. : ) They are in the original Carmelite order. Then St. Teresa reformed the order, and the Discalced Carmelite Order became a separate order.

Here are a couple Calced Carmelites (Carmelites of the Ancient Observance) that are great at the IRL site - Coopersburg, PA & Wahpeton, ND

Hey, Margaret Clare!

Thanks for the clarification. When I first saw the Calced Carmelites, I thought that they might not be as good as Discalced Carmelites. Now, from what you said, it seems that they're a legitimate separate order. I think that when we learn about Carmel, all we hear about is St. Teresa's reformed Carmel, and we assume that God doesn't/didn't smile down upon the original Carmelites. Well, at least that was my experience.

By the way, if you're interested, on www.ocarm.org seems to be the ocd.pcn.net of the Calced Carmelite order. On there I found a list of all of the Calced Carmelite monasteries and convents in the world.

God bless!

~Margaret