Adrian Dominicans

Edited by moderator: Link removed because the order is questionable. --Era Might

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Maybe they'll renew the Sisters. Our good Lord knows they need it! It is good to see them in the habit (sort-of habit).

Yes, lets pray they do. I went to a school associated with them and it was horrific.

don't they borrow their brothers' habits?

Edited by moderator: Please take up moderating issues privately with the moderators. --Era Might

The Adrian Dominicans are a Dominican congregation with Constitutions approved according to canons of the Roman Catholic Church with a long history of service in the Midwest.

Edited by moderator: Please take up moderating issues privately with the moderators. --Era Might We have a whole thread going back and forth about the Carmlites in Colorado when there status as part of the Roman Catholic Church is under questionafter all.

Edited by moderator: Please take up moderating issues privately with the moderators. --Era Might

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I think he's just trying to be careful about what phatmass reps and supports. Phatmass is owned and run by dUSt and he has appointed moderators. Instead of being appalled or disgusted, I think we should be thankful for their diligence and care.

They do the best that they can in accordance with their duty and responsibility and their consciences, which as far as I can tell, are well and properly formed.

It may not always make sense to us, but they have the right of censorship.

Plus, the mission of phatmass is fidelity to the Holy Father and the teachings of the Church. There are numerous public examples of the Adrian Dominicans dissent from and rebellion against Church teachings. It makes sense that they wouldn't be supported here by links and posts because in many ways their work doesn't fit with the mission of Phatmass.

I'm just sorry we had to have this thread in the first place... it makes me sad that discerners, espcially young ones, have to see the disunity in the religious life because of the actions of certain communities. It certainly doesn't represent the best of what we have and the best options. I hope they will keep that mind and that we as a pm community will do our best to support the best.

Nice try, Graciela

For the record,

when I posted the link to the Adrian Dominicans' First Professions, I had no idea that it would elicit such a response from the Edited by moderator: Personal insult. --Era Might . As you might have noted, I made no comment, just posted the link.

As far as I was concerned they are a non-habited order that had a couple of vocs, despite the allegations of the 'massers that these don't exist.

That's ALL.

I will post other links as I come across them. The Man can decide what to do about them. Edited by moderator: If you have a problem with the phorum, please take it up privately with the moderators. --Era Might I am just trying to insert a little reality into the discussion, viz., that there a lot of other orders out there and yes, people are joining them, too.

Deal with it.

jkaands-

Thanks! I feel the Spirit movin'

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That's funny, because as soon as I saw it I kind of laughed and thought, "What is he thinking?". I think its reasonable to request that you contribute to the community in a phatmass mission oriented way and that if you don't know about a community you 1. don't post about it or 2. make it clear that you don't know. I think that's only fair to the other pm'ers. Different isn't always better. In a lot of ways, we are looking at quality, not quantity and the discerners themselves seem to appreciate that.

Jkaands... would you please PM me the link. I know a number of women (in formation and vowed) in this community, as well as many Dominican men who support them.


Graciela, I, like you, find it very puzzling (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth) that we discuss religious communities from all across the spectrum (from sede to TLM to non-habited and everything in between). And, for the most part, these discussions try to bring about awareness and a sense of the diversity that exists within our church. And yet, seemingly out of nowhere, a community (mentioned previously on these boards) is quickly removed. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have mods on the boards and that Phatmass has a mission, etc.... I'm just struggling with this a bit.

Didn't see the link, so I can't comment on that particular order, but if a group has publicly dissed church teaching or bishops, we don't want them linked to Phatmass.

I may be puzzled by the mod's actions to edit this thread, but I certainly can respect their actions even if I disagree with them. But I don't, for a minute, regret or feel sorry that we had this thread in the first place. Without seeing the disunity (be it among Rome and sedevacantist groups or the Eastern and Western rites) that exists in the Church (and in the world)--as can be seen through the witness of religious life--how can we ever come to share in the transformative love that Christ showed us on the cross? I don't want people to discern their vocation (be it to religious, single or married life) with rose-colored glasses on--only making their decision from among the "best" options. Let's be realistic here. I'm not supporting dissenting groups--but there's a lot more out there in terms of religious life than just the few happy, habit-wearing communities that we seem to talk about all the time aroud here.. And I think, so far as it can be done w/in Phatmass' mission, we ought to discuss the entirety of what's going on in the world- especially in how that relates to the discernment of God's plan for our lives.

I am the first to admit I think female religious should wear habits, but if they are faithful to the Church, I don't care if they are in blue jeans.

Nothing has been edited in this thread except a link (and subsequent comments related to that edit). Nobody has been prevented from discussing the order. There is no reason why the link is necessary. I edited it because we received a report, and when I visited the website, it was questionable (which means nothing more than I had some questions). If those questions are cleared up, then I will amend my edit. The name of the order has not been edited. If you want to know more about it, all you have to do is google.

If you want to discuss the order in this thread, do so. Just don't link to it until its faithfulness to the Church is cleared up.

J.M.J.



These sisters have been known to sponser conferances where the key speakers are excommunicated priests. This community is very new age. Their sister community is also very new age. If you go to their sister communitie's motherhouse you can find leaves and animals and things carved into the altar. I have had a couple personal experiences with these sisters and like I said above, it was horrific. They are not faithful to the Church. The sisters and those that I know who are associated with this community have been more concerned with the enviornment and ordination of females then with the Eucharist.

I am all for variety, but this is really not a community that anybody who is faithful to the Church and it's teachings needs to get involved in. I would not even recommend going to schools, conferances, prayer meetings, workshops, and just anything that these sisters have had a hand in.

I post this because as long as this thread that advertises this community is going to be here for "variety" purposes then I think the truth about the community should be spoken of out of charity for innocent discerners. Please pray for this community. Like veritas said, maybe (and lets all hope and pray) that these new professed will reform this community. This use to be a very good community, but sadly it is not the case anymore. Many souls, many souls, have been led astray by their actions.

This is not just some habited preferance I have. I know one or two specific sisters who do not wear the habit that are very orthodox and played a good part in my own discernment. And although I do prefer and would never consider a community that does not wear the habit this has nothing to do with my post. This community is just not faithful to the Church. period.

Thanks, shortnun,

I'll try to PM you the link, tho' it's easiest just to Google the unmentionable name of the order ( reminds me of "that-which-shall-not-be-named (Voldemort)" in the Harry Potter books).

Yes, we have had a lot of discussion of the entire sede vacantist spectrum in PM with nary a quibble about the
appropriateness of same. I am not RC, but in my gut disagreed with the SV's (disagreed is putting it mildly) --as they insulted, yes insulted the contributions of many modern popes, including, of course, my fave, John XXIII, --but here were all these SV communities of various stripes being discussed on PM right and left.

I am a nuts-and-bolts 'practical' type of person, and tho' I respect the preferences of many of the PM'ers for the ' trad' communities, and can also see some of the appeal and advantages in the habit and community life, for example, the fact is, that there is only a handful of trad communities who are really raking in the vocations. Some of these may be competing with each other for the same pool. People are not entering the 'trad' communities in droves, despite the hype. Enthusiasts are listing and discussing the same small group of 'trads' over and over again. Some of the most successful are well funded and very savvy in using the internet to appeal to the younger set. On the other hand, there are (too many) OSB's and OP updated communities though out the midwest especially, which are left over from what was probably the largest and fastest expansion of western religious life in two millenia. Dozens of OP, tens of OSB houses, gobs of OSFs, all competing for the same pool of vocations--but getting a few, here and there, as any diligent search of the websites will attest. Transfers, too (interesting topic). Put these all together and you get many more than the 'trad' communities. Just do the math. The old large orders, originally swelled by large immigrant families (check the obituaries) are diminished in size, but are still going, and still attracting vocations. Some of these have combined and will probably combine in the future, especially among the OP's. In time, maybe the trads will 'beat out' the updated communities, but don't count on it. The updated ones (for want of a better word) are far more in line with rank-and-file Catholicism than the others.

Same for the Latin Mass. I am glad it's out there for those who want it, but don't expect a stampede to it. In my community I don't see any listed on a regular basis. Lots of Spanish masses, though.

I personally don't think that this forum is served by enforcement of narrow guidelines. The word 'forum' usually implies a discussion, an exchange of ideas, and not just a lot of folks agreeing with each other, and shaking their collective finger at the rest of the world.

Dissidence is not an acceptable form of diversity. You're right, we're a very diverse Church, and that is awesome. We couldn't be universal without being diverse. But we're defined by our unity, being a universal Church, and our unity is demonstrated in our obedience. Unfaithfulness to the Magisterium is not diversity.

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The thing is, and I say this with respect, it's not about any one person. It's about the Phatmass Mission. If one doesn't like it -one wonders why that individual would be a part of phatmass? In fact, if one continually and intentionally rebels against what the purpose and confines are of VS, I'm not sure that individual should be here -it's not respectful and it's not fair.

The VS "forum" isn't really the place for a debate. That is debate table. VS is a place for community, solidarity, and support.

I also find it interesting that a handful of men and women in their 40's and 50's find it necessary to come and "diversify" vocation station when our young discerners are quite happy with the communities that fit into phatmass's mission, which are often expounded and expanded upon. The fact that there may be favorites is a blessing -they are good and faithful sisters and an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The discerners here know about fidelity and they know about prudence and they have common sense. I'm not quite sure why certain folks feel the need to "broaden" into heresy and dissent. It's dishonest and a disservice.

You make it sound like a competition for who has the most vocations. It is not a competition. No one is "competing" for anything. God leads a soul where he wants it.

This may not be the reason in this particular case, but some orders like this feel that the veil is a sign of subordinance to men, and to wear it would some how degrade them.

Well if you think that this 50 year old is too diverse for you, then I guess I will take myself and move out of phatmass. I find it quite insulting to say that Phatmass is for the young only. Well if that if your opinion, and the opinion of the majority, then I am gone.

Alicemary, some of us enjoy your point of view here on PM. I really sadden about this thread maybe its a good idea to have it closed before more feelings get hurt.

I'm feeling a bit stung by the age reference as well as Alicemary. I would like to continue to post here, but I will only do so if the other participants feel my contributions are helpful to the forum. I would appreciate feedback--thank you.

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It isn't the age that's a problem -it just seems to be a common thread for some, which is interesting from a social point of view- it's the intent. Age is a legitimate form of diversity. Dissent isn't. I think it's reasonable for all of us, regardless of our age, to keep in line with the pm mission and if we're not sure what that is, to educate ourselves.

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I would recommend this be done on a pm/message level. It isn't appropriate for this kind of feedback to be public.

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Did you read era's post? It didn't look like you did. No one is stifling the conversation, they're just removing the link. We don't link to SV communities either. The same standard is being applied to both.

JK, you stated above, "I am not RC" -does that mean you are not Roman Catholic? May I inquire are you an eastern rite Catholic or do you come from another tradition alltogether? That may help us to understand some of what is going on here.

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You've made a lot of assertions in this post!

I'm not sure that the large communities, which you state "are far more in line with rank-and-file Catholicism" are receiving more vocations combined -especially vocations under 30 or even 40 for that matter. http://theanchoressonline.com/2006/02/28/v...ions-flowering/ In fact, I seem to recall seeing some studies recently, which confirm just the opposite. I believe they were out of Georgetown (anyone interested in researching this?).

Also, I'm not sure what your point is in stating, "updated communities are far more in line with rank- and- file Catholicism". If by that you mean dissent and disobience, which unfortunately seems to be the common thread, I'm not sure that is a good thing! In fact, we could probably draw a direct link between the teaching done by these rebellious communities and many rebellious lay Catholics, which is tragic! I have certainly seen this in real life. In this case, it is precisely for this reason that we need religious that point to something beyond a mediocre, lukewarm Catholic life, which has been all too infiltrated by secular culture, secular relativism, and secular morality. It is precisely for this reason that the "trad" communities (which I don't think is actually an accurate title -they are simply faithful) are so laudable today -what they are doing is counter-cultural, and so necessary.

Pope Benedict XVI has said, "Overcome the temptation of a mediocre life, made of compromises with evil." We may be tempted to say, "Oh, well, it's not that big a deal" or "They are just experimenting" but in all honesty disobedience and dissent are very real forms of evil, which endanger the soul! Our main goal here needs to be holiness -the desire to create and encourage saints and to help people get to Heaven! God is merciful, but we have a duty to inform our consciences and to live in line with the teachings Christ has given us through his Church and our superiors -for our own benefit and the witness we give to others! Because priests and religious hold positions of authority they also have a grave responsibility. This, I would imagine, is why phatmass has the "strict" guidelines as you say. It is because of authentic love, which distinguishes between right and wrong and takes seriously our Lord's command to "not lead away" (remember the millstone around the neck?).

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Silly double post.

I agree. This thread is not turning into something good.

I also love your thoughts, Alicemary, so please do not leave.

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It seems like a necessary purification for all of us.

"Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of right living." -Saint Augustine.

[quote name='Veritas' date='Jul 15 2007, 01:09 PM' post='1329545']
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<<You've made a lot of assertions in this post!

I'm not sure that the large communities, which you state "are far more in line with rank-and-file Catholicism" are receiving more vocations combined -especially vocations under 30 or even 40 for that matter. http://theanchoressonline.com/2006/02/28/v...ions-flowering/ In fact, I seem to recall seeing some studies recently, which confirm just the opposite. I believe they were out of Georgetown (anyone interested in researching this?).

Pope Benedict XVI has said, "Overcome the temptation of a mediocre life, made of compromises with evil." >>
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Veritas makes a good point. I don't know about the numbers. Only time will tell. The Georgetown reference is CARA, the sociology think-tank of the US church. They publish the numbers every year, prob. the most reliable ones. They have published data which support the preference among entrants for habit, community life, traditional religious observances. No argument there. Any perusal of websites will confirm this, I think.

Percentage-wise the new 'trad' communities are growing the fastest. They also have the best press. The recent AP spread on young nuns featured the DMME's running around playing soccer, not the often-chubby (yes, I've said it--I'm 'chubby' too) older recruits in civvies in the 'updated' orders. My arguments are: to paraphrase Mark Twain, rumors of the death of the 'updated' orders are premature. Secondly, in line with what other 'massers have said, not all of the updated are heretical. They may just look heretical. I included the link to an 'updated' community because I came across it, buried in the "What's Happening" section of their website, not splashed on the front page which the go-getter communities seem to do. I expected little interest, and did not anticipate this onslaught of responses.

My background, or, why am I here. I am OLD, I grew up during the 180,000-of-them (sisters)- heyday of religious orders, when women wore at least ten pounds of wool and starch year round, and then I watched the whole thing change, fall apart, and re-invent itself. Not too many 'massers watched this whole thing first-hand. Although I have been happily married (once) for years and have grown daughters, I was very interested in religious life at one point, and renewed that interest with the internet. I suspect that I am not alone. I also have a strong interest in history and sociology, and have a background in art history, which means I know a lot of iconography and religious history. I tend to focus on the practical and down-to-earth and what is actually happening. I have no axe to grind. My only point is: the evolution of religious orders in the US has not played out. Only time will tell.

I suspect that there is a lot of competition among religious orders of certain types. There may not be. One would have to ask vocation directors about this.

I have consistently encouraged all 'massers trying their vocation, old and young, men and women. Check my posts, including a number of recent posts. All or most are entering 'trad' communities or at least communities not called into question; this means that I have encouraged entry into communities which are at the very least acceptable to PM.

Now, a comment on the threads re nuns' and brothers' habits:

We all like habits, to look at them anyway. BUT: do you know that ALL of the religious in those pictures are orthodox? Many are from Europe, many from France, where Archbishop Lefebvre lived, and the SSPX was founded and thrived. Most of the SSPX religious orders are in France, and all wear habits. The 'massers who post the images may know many of the orders pictured, but I infer from the posted comments that apparently not all of them are known. We know, from the experiences of some 'massers re the SSPX orders in the US, that it can be hard to ferret out the truth re these orders. It often isn't posted on the website. One 'masser had to write and ask a community point-blank re its fidelity. We have also discovered that there appear to be grey zones of fidelity among these orders. It may be even harder to figure out the alignment of some of the European orders featured in these threads. One has to find the name of the order, go to the website, and find confirmation of that order's fidelity to the magisterium. This may require being able to read the website in the original language. One may have to write the order, again possibly in their own language, and have to ask them point-blank about their loyalty. I have found myself looking at these images--they're fun to look at-- and noting the lack of comments re the origins of these religious. If I were concerned about orthodoxy, I would like to see some hard information re these orders, who they are and what their position is.

My point is that the enforcement of fidelity should go both ways. It can mean doubting the fidelity of the 'updated' orders, but it also means not posting photos of habits of uncertain provenance.

Regarding my assertion that the 'updated' orders are more in line with the concerns of rank-and-file US Catholics, I simply mean that the fact that these orders are focussing their missions on peace, justice, ecology, and the preferential option of serving the poor and disenfranchised, coincides with many of the concerns of US Catholics. I don't believe that because you don't wear a habit and you do work in these fields means that you have to be heretical.

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Ah, but the habit IS required. Not wearing one is disobedient.

Good post. Thanks for sharing. The thing with the nun-habit photos is that there are not links provided. Just photos. When there are links provided they are done so by someone familiar with the communities and their character or standing. It has seemed to me that pm'ers do an excellent job of marking when sv or sspx communities accidentally wind up on the board. No one is accepting and promoting those communities either.

I agree, a concern for creation, poverty, peace and justice isn't heretical within reason and properly ordered in the totality of Catholic teaching. There needs to be something more. Again, the habit issue -they should be wearing one.

Your contributions are very, very, welcome, at least to me, and I know that many others feel the same.

I do not agree with the statement that the 'rank and file' Catholic join orders with a reputation of dissent. The CARA research has proved year after year that orders that follow the renewal of Vatican 2, not the 'Spirit of Vatican 2' are expirancing maybe not growth, but have enough vocations to sustian themselves.

I think that diversity in religous life is a good thing. Different orders ( Dominican, Franciscan, Carmelite ) who work in different apostoletes ( education, heath care, ect ) add vibrancy to the Church. But dissent is not diversity. Dissent breaks the Church up, and does not add to it.

Just my two sense

Veritas, I do not think it is appropriate for you to speak for all of the discerners on PM. You also appear to equate older people on PM with a support of disobedient and questionable religious communities. That is a broad generalization that I do not in any way support and I really question your thought process on this. An occassional occurance does not make for a norm. I have seem far more young people come on here and link to schismatic religious orders than "older" people.

Perhaps this was not what you meant but many people, including myself, seem to be reading it as that, so perhaps you might wish to qualify your statement about older people in VS.

I personally would find PM to be less rich and less balanced if we did not have people like alicemary, stlmom graciela and others here.

When a forum is posted on the internet like phatmass it is to be expected that people of all ages shall participate. This was not billed as a "young people" only area. I think we under appreciate the wisdom of our older members and I think that most of us on here would suffer from the lack of their thoughts.

And what do you mean by this?



I comment on how this thread is not turning into something good and you comment that it is a necessary purification? A purification from what, pray tell? From opinions we do not necessarily agree with? From religious orders being promoted that do not wear habits?

Stop acting like you are more knowledgeable than the rest of us. You are hurting a lot of our valued posters; whether or not you intended to is another issue.

I hope this thread is locked before it gets worse; it still maintain that it is not turning into something good.

It is of course the moderator's privilege to edit posts as they feel is necessary, but to pretend that these other religious orders do not exist and to try to make them taboo is not a healthy way to deal with abuses in religious life or a life style that we may not feel is ideal. I think it is fine that he took a link out, we can still discuss the order and why we may not like their lifestyle. I feel that is is important that young discerners know they exist so that they can see a contrast to what is better. How do you know something is good without seeing what is not? Perhaps God might call someone to this order so that they can help renew it. Nothing wrong with that.

I support the moderator's final decision on all of this, but the generalizations that have been read from your words is not a positive contribution to the Vocation Station.

A public comment does not outlaw a public explanation when it's asked for. I'm not saying it's wrong to answer through PM - I could care less. But your logic doesn't add up when you say that it's not appropriate to publicly back up a statement you publicly made.

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Just posting my observations. Notice I said a "handful" -that does not equal everyone. Please note, I clearly said that age is a legitimate diversity and I think it is great if people of all ages are here. However, if those individuals are promoting dissent, that is a problem. Regarding age, it seems like the handful is all of the same generation and from a socio-historic standpoint that is interesting -we all know about the VII effect perhaps, not certainly, but perhaps there is a connection. ?

The purification is regards to the mission of pm and the intent of all of us as members of this community. It is for us to be intentional and well-formed -to be obedient and disciples, no? Well, who is the teacher? It is Christ, it is his Church.

The "contrast" question, which you raised is an interesting one... I'm not sure if I agree, I haven't heard ultimately convincing arguments on either side. However, I am definitely not beyond learning and so I appreciate the conversation. Overall, I think this discussion is very helpful in ascertaining what pm is all about and why.


If dUSt says it doesn't matter what links we have and whom we recommend, then I wholeheartedly defer to his judgement. At this point, however, not only does it seem like some folks are using the forum outside of the guidelines perhaps unintentionally, but that they intend to do so intentionally in the future. That is of concern. That is why we are talking about this. There's nothing to be afraid of -we are just searching for the truth together.

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I don't think you understood what I meant. I was addressing those that might have things to say to stlmom regarding the feedback she requested. I suppose if it is affirmative, it is fine to be posted publicly. However, if it is other, it wouldn't be appropriate -kind- to post that publicly. However, I'm sure no one has anything unkind to say to stlmom.