The "Witwenweihe" is definately something else - It´s a totally different thing...



You know Benedicta!!!!! We studied together - well, untill she unfotunately had to leave University because they needed her at convent...
She´s ever so kind and loving...

Thank you for the reply.

God bless!

+J.M.J.+




If you have any personal objections to the discussion in this thread, please report it to the moderators, rather than discuss it here.

this is not the debate table.

Just my two cents worth. If you read French, Rene Metz, "La Consecration des Vierges dans l'eglise romaine" (1959) is still an authoritative guide to the historical development of the Rite (and incidentally very interesting). The rite we use is taken from the Ritual of the Abbey of Dourgne which is an excellent guide in itself, being full of explanatory notes. Perhaps reading some of this material would be helpful?

Digitaldame,

Is Metz's work available in an English translation?

Thank You

That's interesting. Yeah, again I remember reading somewhere that the ancient rite of consecration was more often given to cloistered nuns, but not anymore. That's why it was something special that the Carthusian Nuns retained it, which is made something like 4 years after Solemn Profession.

A young women preparing to make the consecration once told me the difference is that religious professed vows, and consecrated virgins receive the rite of consecration.

In a Solemn Profession for the Discalced Carmelite Nuns, after the "Rite of Religious Profession" there is a "Solemn Blessing or Consecration of the Professed" which is a long prayer prayed by the bishop over the nun. But it's not specifically the rite of consecration of virgins. It's more like a blessing or prayer.


But so anyway, it seems like the vows themselves are the consecration. But yeah, it's neat how some cloistered nuns actually still receive the ancient rite separate from their religious profession.

I thought it appropriate to post this in this thread.

A quote from The Daily Universal Register in today's Times newspaper :_

" SAINTS DAY...........St Marcellina is celebrated for her devotion to piety and ascetism. For her innocence and dedication to Christianity,she received the veil of consecrated virginity from Pope Liberius on Christmas Day around 353 AD "

If anyone is interested in what the Church fathers said about consecrated virginity, there are many good references on consecratedvirginity.org. As I was reading over a treatise by Saint Ambrose on virginity, I noticed he more than once described virginity as a state of being "unstained in spirit", which seems to shed some light on the meaning of virginity, that is; once something is stained in spirit (perhaps as a result of the will), then it is no longer what it once was. A single act, like a stain, alters its state.

He went on to later state this; "And what is virginal chastity but purity free from stain? And whom can we judge to be its author but the immaculate Son of God, Whose flesh saw no corruption, Whose Godhead experienced no infection? Consider, then, how great are the merits of virginity."

The treatise can be found here; Saint Ambrose, On Virgins

And many more writings from the Saints can be found here; http://www.consecratedvirgins.org/resources.html

Sometimes when reading through discussions like this I have felt it may have helped to clear up some terminology issues.

I don't know if I can do that but I think it needs to be addressed. But I use words which some might consider inappropriate. I don't, partly because my mother is a nurse, and partly because I live in the Netherlands and we don't mince our words.

Whether this post is more debate table material is for the mods to decide.

What is a (female) virgin?
The definition I have always been taught was that a virgin was someone who had never had penetrative penile-vaginal sex.

The concept of a woman's virginity being tied, physically, to the hymen was something I only heard about later, and in the sense that the presence of the hymen is a proof of virginity (i.e. a sufficient condition), but not a necessary condition - the hymen can be absent and yet the woman can still be a virgin (take, for example, anyone who's ridden horses straddle).

I understand that people will say that once the hymen is no longer present, the woman is no longer a virgin (thus making it equivalent).

I dare to say that unless everyone either agrees on a definition, or is aware of which definition each other uses, they will continue to talk at cross-purposes.

Margaret Clare....

More information regarding the Carthusian Nuns receiving the Consecration of Virgins...(from their website):

After her solemn profession or perpetual donation, the nun can, if she wishes, receive the Consecration of Virgins. This is a special rite where the Bishop gives the nun not only the veil and ring, external signs of an indissoluble union with the divine Spouse, but also the stole. This confers on the recipient certain liturgical privileges the most significant of them being the proclaiming of the Gospel on certain occasions.

I wish they were here in the United States!


Perpetualove


Note: Emphasis mine.

"More information regarding the Carthusian Nuns receiving the Consecration of Virgins...(from their website):
I wish they were here in the United States!"

Me too! Don't we have enough Phatmassers who love the Carthusian charism to get a small Charterhouse for women going here in the States? Or do we all need to go to Livingstone Manor NY which is the next closest thing stateside- but I do not believe that they have the Carthusian privilege of virginal consectration.

Does anyone know for sure on this last question?

Graciela

Rising Suns,

Your posts are most informative. I decided to "take the plunge" so to speak and post today. My first time.
You do much research and this subject is near and dear to your heart.
I shall pray that you remain free from stain as well, a most worthy and excellent condition to find oneself. Seeing the word "infection" made me take this so much seriously, for nobody would want to be infected! When it is put like that, it sends shivers up and down my spine!
Thank you for educating so many, but I cannot speak for others, just myself. Will you pray that I remain free from stain as well? If I were infected by sin, especially the kind that is described above, I don't know what I would do. I am young, but old enough to know that I do not want my soul to blacken and rot with the infectious nature of sin!
I am preparing for religious life (though I am too young at present, but soon, soon) and have every intention of keeping myself pure and white so when I give myself to the Lord, I can give the Lord ALL of me and not have any remorse about bad decisions or choices. Your research lead me to go and read other things Saint Ambrose wrote. He cautioned in one essay to be very careful of the company one keeps, for it can lead to sin. I can see why this is necessary, because suspicions can arise so easily.
With that in mind, and in the true desire to not sin, to remain pure, chaste, holy and completely clean, this afternoon, I have rededicated myself to the Blessed Virgin Mother, Mother, Queen and Empress of all Virgins. I shall immediately curtail my activities so as not to be in a position of infection, and I have announced my desires to my parents.
I will begin the process of curtailing my activities with my friends, some who do not see the emergency state of this desire, and obviously, I will immediately begin cutting off personal communication with members of the opposite sex, though my Father has advised me that telephone, cell phone, and email interaction would be appropriate and not cause suspicion, harm or scandal. I have scheduled Confession for this afternoon, for before this post, I believe I was in danger of infection! Please do not mistake my words and think I was considering the worst sin of all, because no, I was not. But I was considering having a romantic date with someone that I had thought I "liked." Then, Rising Suns, I saw the error of my ways, and I canceled. I did engage in thoughts that were not saintly, chaste or even pure. These must be removed, immediately, and my Father is going to take me to Confession when he comes home. Do you see the graces you have bestowed upon me? This road could have cost me my vocation, it could have lead me to unbearable stains and marks upon my soul, and I would have been ruined, without recourse.
Yes, I am a sensitive soul, and I take things seriously. I have been a "lurker" for a long time and only today did the Holy Spirit give me the courage to "post."
Please pray for me, and continue to bring the soldiers of Christ to the TRUTH. I will pray for you this afternoon in front of The Blessed Sacrament.

Beatus

+ I forgot to mention that when I told Father why I needed Confession today, he told me a saint to pray to would be Saint Maximilian Kolbe. Father said he is a Saint most willing to help us young Soldiers keep our purity.

Graciela,
Actually....one of the reasons I first came on Phatmass was to find out more about the Carthusian Nuns. I looked into the Livingston Manor Nuns and it was my understanding that they are an international order and upon entrance, one just doesn't automatically "get to" enter/stay there. It does seem like there are enough of us. I know there are others out there who have also expressed an interest and know more (much, more more!) than I do!
Perpetualove

Dear Beatus,
I do not know what to say, other than to praise God for His great goodness for you, and for using such an imperfect and weak person as I. I am far from an expert on this topic, and am learning in the same way as everyone here. I thank you for your prayers on my behalf, as they are very much appreciated.

I will most assuredly pray that you remain free from stain, as your heart desires. This is a great desire that you have. Please do persevere in this vein. To be a sensitive soul is to be in company with the greatest of Saints, who, in the eyes of the world, were considered over-scrupulous. But the path to perfection leaves no room for even the smallest imperfections (n.b., the diary of Saint Faustina, who also considered herself a sensitive soul).

If I may direct your attention to a website that may offer a little more insight into discerning religious life; http://www.religious-vocation.com/discerni...s_vocation.html

I am in no position of authority, nor am I a director of souls, but I can see that by your rededication to Our Lady, you are most assuredly in good hands. I will pray that the Blessed Virgin guide you by the hand towards the path that gives the greatest glory to Her Son.

My prayers are with you in this time of discernment.

Please pray for me.

+JMJ

St. Maximilian Kolbe, pray for us.
St. Faustina, pray for us.

Yes, indeed. You have changed my life. I started a new thread. Please look at it. Perhaps you will have some advice. We need to stay strong and chaste. IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

?
i always thought "purity" was having the intention to do God's will in everything. Of course, there is physical purity, but doesn't this come from having a purity of intention, of will?
Isn't it more important to focus on doing God's will in every moment than obsessing about being "infected"?
I don't mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to add to the discussion. I'm not trying to start a debate but trying to clarify.
God bless you.

It is both!

From here: http://www.consecratedvirgins.org/cv/prep/prepfaq1.html

There also is a PDF-document available:
http://www.consecratedvirgins.org/brief.pdf



If you are a widow, you have been married - if you have sexual intercourse with a man, there is ONE PERSON, who could testify that you are not a virgin any more... Think about the situation: During the mass of consecration, suddenly a man rises and begins to laugh... because he knows "more"...

And if you also have a look at the Fathers of the church, you will find that a "virgin" as virgin has never been questioned.

"SACRA VIRGINITAS" by Pius XII is also a very beautiful document - it´s really worth reading it!

------------------

In my opinion this thread reverlates a technical "problem" - there are two important but also different words: There is "chastity" and there is "virginity".
When you are a child - you "have" virginity as well as chastity. If a person is not chaste, there is the possibility to go to confession. It is forgiven - alright. But you can´t get dispensation from matter/form of the sacramental!
Again, you are consecrated as a virgin - you don´t "become" a virgin... or somehow "reach"/"acchive" the state of virginity as something you didn´t have before (or already "lost")...
Of course a consecrated virgin is called to live chaste - as all the others...

If you search on VS, you will find a bunch of threads about the Livingston Manor Nuns.

II am not sure what you mean by the following:

they are an international order and upon entrance, one just doesn't automatically "get to" enter/stay there.. Do you mean, get to stay in the US--because they are international, you might be transferred? Most of the Livingston Manor houses are in France. You could find out by writing them. I am not sure if they have an email address.

There are about 75 Carthusian nuns in the world, not very many. However, they are either increasing or holding their own in numbers. Initially it was felt that women couldn't sustain the severity of the Carthusian life with its solitude and penances--ha! At the rate things are going, there may in the end be more nuns than Carthusian monks, as a number of the men's charterhouses are closing and the average age is increasing.

If you are interested, you might contact the men's charterhouse in Vermont re the prospects of a women's charterhouse in the US.

Back to Consecrated Virginity.

A great idea on paper, I suppose, but I don't blame the bishops for not having it in their dioceses. If I were a bishop, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.

After all, what is virginity? A lack of sexual intercourse, presumably. What does a bishop have to do to determine this? Require a certificate re the integrity of the candidate's hymen? Ask her in detail about her sex life ? Take her word for it? How far did she go? Was she ever raped? Did she ever have an opportunity for sex, or is she a dried up dateless old prune who is asking for this out of spite? (Who'd want her?) If she didn't go 'all the way' in order to remain technically a virgin, is she more pure than someone who didn't? Is she less pure than an unattractive woman who never had the chance? Suppose she gets consecrated and several sources come forward to say she's no virgin! Then what?

And suppose she's consecrated and then meets the man of her life? What then? Are these solemn vows which have to be dispensed by Rome?

And for the nuns who are consecrated. Nine at Regina Laudis were consecrated. What about the others--presumably weren't eligible. This raises questions about their previous lives, which they all put behind them when they entered. So what are they, chopped liver?

I think that this entire topic is a minefield, and don't blame any bishop who wants no part of it.

*sigh*

Why do some people always reduce things to the naturalistic base (or plain "SEX" oder "NO SEX" and "HOW SEX"???) I´ll never understand why people don´t seem to even try to "understand", at least "retrace" the theological background of it...

Things concerning the 6th commandment are ONE of many points to talk about - if the topic is consecration of virgins... ONE! Why do people always resist on this ONE point?????? Hey, please cool down - it doesn´t even affect you directly...

*sigh*

Somebody once said:
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary.
For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible...
If this way of life is your vocation, you will live it - if it isn´t, you will have a different way to God. If God calls you to stay virginal, it is his will. It is your special way! Nothing is "worse" or "better" - you don´t have the right to "judge". You are no bishop - so you don´t have to deal with it in the way you do... you - from the "outside" of another person (of the bishop and the candidate) - don´t have to decide...

That´s it -

The point is not the doctrine but the problems for bishops who administer the consecration. for them, this special rite raises all kinds of problems. Bishops don't need more problems, they have enough already.

Then please let the bishops decide what do do with it...
If you argue like this, you would be obliged to say that celibacy as a whole sometimes causes many new problems which you don´t need...

There are many ways to God - please leave them to the people...

We had a woman consecrated here a couple of months ago. She was not consecrated a virgin, she was consecrated single. She is a chaplain, and a theology professor, and said that she didn't want to be called a consecrated virgin because she didn't want the emphasis to be on sex or sexuality.

+J.M.J.+
temporarily closing this thread while under moderators' review.