Agreed, I think there will always be a traditional habit, I hope, But some type of dress that would serve women who are active out of the convent would be cool too.

I have seen this thread grow and wanted to make a few observations of my own.

First of all, I am glad to see this topic being discussed in a calm, rational, and intelligent manner, even when there is disagreement. This contrasts very sharply and very pleasantly with similar discussions I had seen on the old bit.listserv.catholic mailing list back in the late 80's and early 90's. Back then, anyone who brought up the subject of feminine modesty in clothing or even whether men should wear formal wear like a suit to Mass, they would invariably get one of two responses, or both:

1. YOU BAD SINNER HOW DARE YOU IGNORE YOUR (Eucharistic) HOST YOU ARE SINNING AND MISSING THE MARK YOU BAD EVIL SINNER!!!111ONEONEONE.

2. I have such-and-such piece of grubby clothing, can I wear it to Mass? Huh? Huh? Please? Can I? Can I? Huh? Huh? Please? Please? Can I? Can I? Please?

There was once when a gal honestly and almost plaintively said "I just want to go to Mass to worship God, I don't want to make my boyfriend horny because of what I am wearing!" She received a barrage of #1. I stood up for her and said I thought her motives were wonderful, and got a barrage of #1 and #2. I even had a very condescending #2 from a Youth Pastor somewhere in (sorry, texans) Texas. I was not impressed!

So I am glad that I have not seen either kinds of responses in this thread. I am even more glad to see that there are businesses that are trying to cater to that need. Of course, now that I am a postulant, almost all the ladies I see and interact with are in habit!

But, there is another side that I am also noticing. I must admit that I get nervous whenever Padre Pio is quoted favourably about feminine modesty. First of all, his increasing severity makes me wonder if it really WAS the Holy Spirit that was forcing him to be so severe and short tempered with those women who were not "modestly dressed" enough for him. I like to think that now that Padre Pio is in Heaven, he has apologised to all those women, and that those women now know the real reason for his ire, whatever it was.

His fellow friars did indeed post a sign, but it did not say that he was “the Man”. It said that women should not come to confession wearing anything that did not come within a certain number of inches from their ankles or wrists.

Here is why I get nervous. I was on a mailing list for Catholic hermits and hermit wannabes a few years before joining Phatmass. There was one person on it who was almost obsessed with how women have to be modest because of how weak men are, and also how women are more treacherous than men because “women rule the heart”. If someone referred to an innocuous female body part, such as the bellybutton or left nostril, then he was sure to post about how bad they were to say that because it led men’s minds to wander and think about her crotch or breasts.

And yes, he quoted Padre Pio extensively, including the bit about how the Holy Spirit was forcing him to be so harsh with women whose outfits revealed too much wrist or ankle. He even tried to say that Padre Pio was trying to teach them all about modesty and its importance. It annoyed a lot of people, including some of the women on the list.

Then he posted about how his wife had hurt his heart very badly when she left him and betrayed him. Then I understood. He died a few months later of cancer, and I prayed that God would heal the hurts that caused his hatred of women.

Here is how I handled a situation like that. Back when I was a sadomasochist, er I mean Grad Student, I had a lady friend who was a hairdresser. I used to go to her for haircuts since she was a friendly and pleasant gal and I enjoyed her company. A certain two portions of her anatomy were rather large, and if she was wearing a V-necked top, those two portions became *ahem quite visible. Especially when leaning over her customers to cut their hair!

Did I follow St. Pio’s example and scream at her? Did I follow Johnnydigit’s advice and turn a firehose on her? No, I simply decided that she had fascinating eyebrows. It became my duty to memorise the number and relative position of each hair in her eyebrows. The whole time she was leaning over the front of me cutting her hair.

On my next visit, she was wearing a turtleneck!

I will never forget the time, when I was around 14 years old, I went to church for Mass, and it was so hot and humid. I wore a sleeveless dress. When I went up for communion, the priest bellowed at me in such a loud voice....if you come to church like that again, I will not give you communion, now go cover your arms. I was mortified, in fact did not return to church for several months. I will never forgive that priest. Woe be it for any one to speak to me like that again, I am not a 14 year old any longer.
Modesty is important, but if a man is so weak to be tempted by a woman's arms...wow oh wow.

Contrary to popular believe, a fourteen-year-olds uncovered shoulders will not desecrate a church. I asked a canon lawyer.

Due to my rather high vantage point, I can explain to girls how they look from a guy's perspective, and how a certain style of dress might give an onlooker vertigo. Most of the time they haven't even given it any thought.

Forgive me for bumping up an old thread, but I believe this topic is of great consequence today. I am glad to hear that women realize that modesty is beautiful. To a traditional Catholic man, there is nothing more beautiful than the heart of a humble soul under modest clothing (such as a jumper) and no make-up or ornamentation. Our Lady is the greatest model in this regard. Catholics need to take back what Islam seems to have a monopoly over.

If I may also point out, there are a few Catholic colleges who offer degrees in modest fashion. Their goal is to develop the fashion of modest and traditional clothes to society. In this way, they may have a great impact on society. It is my hope that they are successful in this.

Please pray that more men and women (especially women) dress modestly, and not buy in to the secularized mindset that one needs make-up, jewelry, and ornamentation in order to look beautiful.

Blessings.

Wonderful quotes JD.

It's not just beautiful, it's comfortable! Immodest dress also, I think, provokes the wearer to be more self-centered. You know, worrying how much their skirt will cover when they sit down, that sort of thing. But I love long skirts, those peasant ones...you can even kick off your shoes and curl up in a comfy chair, and the skirt covers all! I have to say, though, that there's nothing wrong with some make-up and some jewelry, I partake in both. It's not immodesty (for many women) - it's more like habit, culture, that sort of thing.

This website seems very encouraging; http://maidensofworth.org/2007/08/maidens-...sty-values.html

As Maidens for Modesty, what are our values?

* We believe in dressing in modest apparel, as it says in 1 Timothy 2:8-9 - "I also want a women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God."
* We believe in saving our bodies and not exposing them to others, but protecting what God has given us.
* We believe in being modest in the way we act, talk, walk, and carry ourselves.
* We know that true modesty begins in the heart, and is an attitude more than what we wear.
* We believe in behaving discretely and with modesty.
* However, our clothing usually displays our true self, and we believe in dressing modestly to be a witness to others.
* We know that modesty isn't a legalistic set of rules, but rather guidelines to help determine what we should wear.
* We believe in presenting discretion and dignity in what we wear and how we behave- "Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a beautiful women who shows no discretion." ~ Proverbs 11:22
* We believe in helping to protect men from the visual attack by dressing modestly as their sisters-in-Christ
* We believe in dressing in a way that glorifies God, not our body.
* We believe that modesty and purity are always in fashion!
* We believe that modesty isn't old-fashioned - you don't have to wear colonial dresses (like the ones in the picture) or have waist-length hair to be modest!
* We believe that fear of the Lord is the most beautiful thing - “Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.” ~ Proverbs 31:30

I'm not sure I get how plaiting one's hair isn't modest. I used to have knee-length hair which was (in public) always plaited. The few times it was "down" in public were the times I caused traffic accidents.

I think that "braided" doesn't mean a simple plait, but rather the elaborate multi-plait hair styles you could think up.

By the way... *points to PP* She got me into wearing ankle-length skirts full time.

No-one who knew me two years (or longer) ago will believe it

And it only took her about four years, too!

I don't think you can really can't base norms for modesty on our cultural norms since we have lost all sense of decency.

Gotcha. I was getting worried. Once I was at the train station in Dresden and took my hair out of its plait to brush it and nearly caused a riot when some men noticed it.



And weirdly enough I don't ever remember even saying anything about it, except how I preferred them (and how trousers never look good on me anyway). I do recall some rather deep and bizarre conversations in a train about not-so-modest-things though.

I can't find my notes on it now, but I would think that this passage (tim 2:9-10) is related to Paul's passages in Corinthians that women must have their head covered (see 1 Corinthians 11). As Catholics, we look not only at the words of the Scripture (the text), but we also keep in mind for who and for what purpose they were written (the context).
In Paul's time, hair was considered one of the most beautiful attributes of a woman (although I would argues this is still true); however, it was so much so, that one mark of the female prostitutes who offered their bodies in worship at the pagan temples (most specifically that in Corinth) were distinguished from the regular population by the beautiful ornamentations they wore and the way that they kept their hair. So, in Paul's time, for a woman to cover her hair and keep it modestly, especially for prayer, was as much to be a distinguishing mark of the prayer of a Christian woman verses the prayer of a pagan prostitute as it was to be modest- ie preserving the body and the person from lust.
Just thought you'd be interested... a bit off topic, but I found it really interesting when I learned this.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren

I don't consider it off-topic, as it is a source for certain practises that very much have to do with modesty.

The debate whether women should cover their hair flares up from time to time, and in those situations it's very good to know that Paul wrote this especially for a community that lived among the cultists of Isis.

+J.M.J.+
are you sure???