My Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Praised be Jesus Christ! I am new to the board, and entering a Discalced Carmelite convent on September 8th. I know this topic has been discussed before: the Post Vatican II Constitutional Split. However, this time I would like to raise the subject in light of your personal opinions.
To me, the division between the 1990 and 1991 Constitutions is greatly troubling. In a world already so secular, and thereby threatening Religious Life, it seems tragic to have internal threats as well. The stronger the spirit, the greater number of new vocations. How can such a division do anything but threaten the spirit of the Order? Do you think there is hope of uniting the 1990 and 1991 communities under one Constitution, charism, and spirit?

Yours in Christ,
Courtney

Welcome to phatmass, Courtney, and thank you for being so generous to attempt religious life as a Carmelite!
What little I know of these two Constitutions comes from reading this forum. My opinion is pretty simple. Women will vote with their feet and seek to enter where they believe they can live religious life as faithfully as they can. Many will become holy even if they are living in a less than perfect situation, and no community is perfect---even highly observant traditional orders will have their share of troubles.
God bless!

I agree with stlmom

Welcome! I have two friends who are Carmelites. One is active, one is cloistered. Best wishes to you

Welcome to phatmass! I don't know much about this topic either... only what I have read here in VS. I do have a question though and this seems like a good place to ask it... Why did the Carmelites have to change their consitutions? What was wrong with everything that St. Teresa and St. John did? Again, as I said, I don't know much so, if this question is ridiculous, please excuse my ignorence.

I think its a good question!! Why is something changed even though its GOOD, and still works? I don't get it!

Dear Courtney,

+ Praised be Jesus Christ!

Congratulations on your upcoming entrance to Carmel!!

I’ve been meaning to reply here for a few days now, but needed to find a good chuck of time to write this out. :j Yeah, I started a thread on this last year – Discalced Carmelite Nuns, 1990 & 1991 Constitutions While I tried to present all the information I’ve gathered as best as I could from various sources – I’m really no expert on the subject myself.

Yes, I also agree with stlmom here – great points in so few words, unlike me! But I have a lot of thoughts on the topic, so my apologies in advance for such a long post!

First, in reply to onlygrace, no your question is not at all ridiculous! ( Yep, it’s a very good question, as Saint Therese said :j )


I’m also no expert on this, but I know that actually all the religious orders after the Second Vatican Counsel had to change their constitutions, to a certain degree, to conform them to the new directives of the Church on religious life, which were issued in several different documents, like the "Decree on the Adaptation and Renewal of Religious Life" (Perfectae Caritatis), 1965.

St. Teresa of course greatly emphasized complete obedience to the Church, to be loyal daughters of the Church, so changing her Constitutions to conform to the directives of the Church, would in no way be going against her intentions, and her Rule. And both 1990 & 1991 Constitutions are renewed constitutions in conformity with the new directives of the Church on religious life.


First, I really think a whole lot regarding faithfulness to the OCD charism of each particular Carmel, depends on just that – each particular Carmel, and further more, on each particular nun in whatever community she may be.

I do particularly like the 1990 Carmels, but I only know a handful of Carmels personally – so there are so many others out there that I have no idea about.

But one thing I believe is a greater internal split for the OCD nuns, rather than the fact that there are two different texts of their constitutions currently approved, is the contrast instead between Carmels that follow a traditional interpretation of the Rule, whichever particular constitutions they are under, and Carmels that are more progressive - which is present today in most other religious orders/congregations also, both active and cloistered.


These are great points. But actually, I don’t believe this constitutional split has or will really threaten the spirit of the Discalced Carmelites, in particular for the nuns, and new vocations to them for a few reasons.

First, regarding a split within an Order hurting an Order in general – but throughout the history of the Church in pretty much all the Orders & Congregations, etc, there have always been internal splits, which in many cases doesn’t seem to have threatened their spirit or charism, eg the Rule of St. Francis, with its many and varied forms and interpretations - & then of course, the split in the ancient Order of Carmel, with the Discalced Carmelites.

Second, while it is true that this most recent constitutional split has caused some disunity for Order, there was a similar split before this right at the beginning of its founding in the late 16th century. But the OCD nuns greatly flourished throughout this period of over three centuries up until the 1926, when they were united again under one constitution, with the new Code of Canon Law.

Then another aspect of unity for the OCD nuns and their charism in particular, which doesn’t seem to be threatened by this constitutional split, is the unity on the micro-level/day-to-day basis among the sisters within the enclosure that St. Teresa desired to reign within her Carmels – for them to be like a family, a small close-knit community: thus the size limit for each Carmel. Because every Carmel is of course autonomous, regardless of whether or not it is part of an association of Carmels.



I believe most of the success of the OCD cloistered nuns throughout their history and to the present day, really depends on the success of each particular Carmel, and each particular nun - of how well they are living what St. Teresa started in her first little community of St. Joseph’s in Avila - rather than the governing of all the communities as a whole.

But returning to the original topic of this overall unity in the Order, which is important, I believe the greater split among them currently is the great contrast between Carmels that follow the Rule more traditionally, whether 1990 or 1991, to various degrees, and those on the other hand that definitely do not – which is a split that exists for most other orders in the Church today.


I’m not sure, but I believe things will remain as they are for a while, as the constitutions are still pretty new in relation to how long it took for them to be approved and promulgated. However, JPII did say that they do remain united under the one same Rule, expressed in two different ways.

And I really have noticed this unity between several 1990 and 1991 Carmels, on a first hand basis, like those in the St. Joseph's Association, which are under either. And when I visited Des Plaines Carmel, Mother Andre there said they are very close also to their founding Carmel of Terre Haute which is under the 1991s. The same thing I noticed with the 1990 Carmels in Buffalo, Iron Mountain, Traverse City, etc. and their founding Carmel in Ada Parnell, MI under the 1991s.

So, in conclusion, I don't think it's that bad of a thing for the Order to have two different constitutions approved for the nuns, which the individual communities are free to choose, and can switch over to at any time, either way (which they have to request & get approval for of course), as one Carmel informed me, since also, they have been this way for the majority of time they have existed since the late 16th century.

They are still in the one same Discalced Carmelite Order founded by St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross, and remain united in one charism and spirit, as the late Holy Father said in his Letter to the Discalced Carmelite Nuns on the Occasion of the Approval of their Constitutions, 1991.

A couple lines from it roughly translated in English (unfortunately it’s only available in Spanish & Italian currently on the Vatican website) which are great! (though now I am determined to get a complete official English translation of this letter, so I can add it to the other thread as another great source of information, the words of our late Holy Father, John Paul II himself )






Congratulations again on your acceptance and entrance into this great Order!!!

Thanks for your insight!

Praised be Jesus Christ!

Thanks for shedding some further light on this topic. I absolutely agree with the details you referred to regarding how the two constitutions came around, and that they are both valid expressions of the Teresian charism. The community I am entering follows the 1990 Constitution, and the one thing that seems regrettable is that there is no association with the Discalced Carmelite Friars.

So, another question to pose: Do you think we will see a day when the 1990 Constitution Carmels once again associate with the Discalced Carmelite Friars?

They stopped doing so, because they feared the laxity of the friars would be transposed into the nun's communities. What do you think about the handful of communitites that ended up mixing the Constitutions in this regard?

Yours in Christ,
Courtney

(Sorry my first reference is rather vague; I have yet to master the quote inserts. . . :-) )

Hey Courtney! This is so great about your quickly approaching entrance, btw!

Well, although the 1990 Carmels are not under the jurisidiction of the OCD Father General, they do still remain in the same Discalced Carmelite Order.

I think it's great the handful of communities who still desired to remain under the friars, but with the 1990s, were given permission to do that. I was searching online, and found under the OCD communications, a couple more Carmels that requested this in Brazil (at the end of the report). And the association of Los Palomarcitos de la Virgen on Georgetown's site looks particularly outstanding, with a great desire for fidelity to St. Teresa's Rule & Constitutions, as well as unity in the Order!

Personally, I don't mind the idea of being directly under the Holy See instead of the OCD Father General, as there seems to be a lot of stability in that for the nuns. But regarding the Order's unity - long sentence here :j --> I think that if over a period of time, the OCD friars become more and more orthodox, as the false spirit of VII, not the actual documents, etc., begins to die out of the Church, as well as showing more and more a desire to preserve the way of life St. Teresa & St. John of the Cross intended for them, in a similar spirit to what the Carmelite Monks of Wyoming are doing (though they are monks, not friars - seeking to live the wholly contemplative life following the OCD charism as the nuns do, though not actually part of the OCD Order) - and there are some very orthodox & traditional OCD frairs out there, I've heard - then it may be likely that all the 1990 Carmels will seek this communion, surpressing article 133 in the 1990 Constitutions to be under the OCD Father General instead of the Holy See.

However, I definitely do not believe that the way to unity for the Order will be for the 1990 Carmels to switch over to the 1991s. And although the 1990s are a minority, they seem to be getting a lot of vocations these days, so that may change over time. Something special also about being in a 1990 Carmel, is that you are in a special way following in the spirit of St. Maravillas of Jesus and her Association of St. Teresa - more about it here on the bottom (plus an OCD martyr & and Bl. Nimatullah, whom I'd never heard of) - on a side note: great quote from him there regarding community life, when it was suggested he retreat to a hermitage, relevant to the OCD charism - "Those who struggle for virtue in community life will have greater merit."

a holy card of her


God bless you, Courtney, as you begin this new life!

Just posting a link to the Carmelite Monks thread here :j

But regarding the OCD Friars, I have never actually met any, and again, I've heard there are some really great ones out there. Actually wait .. I did met one from India, and he was really cool! So I don't mean to say negative things about them. And I sincerely ask pardon, if I have at all offended anyone out there on the internet.

I just mean, it is generally known, that in general the OCD Friars have become more liberal after Vatican II, as have many other religious orders. Thus is why the Carmels that wished to preserve the strict Rule and Constitutions of St. Teresa appealed to the Holy See to be directly under them.

But regarding this difference in jurisdiction, actually I've just learned, even when the nuns were under one Constitution from the 1920's to Vatican II, there were still some that were under the jurisdiction of the Holy See, and others, the OCD Father General. I read this in their Constitutions of 1928, which are available from a seller on amazon - Rule & Constitutions of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns There are sections with different articles for the nuns under the Holy See, and the ones under the Father General. So this has been how they've existed since the early years of their beginnings in the late 16th century up until now.

I was really excited find copy of this, so I could read them myself. It said there was only one copy available from the seller when I bought it, but he seems to have more - just listed as one. Other than this, the OCD nuns constitutions are unavailable to the public, (I emailed the OCD Generalate in Rome about it - though they said I might ask the individual Carmels, if I would like to read them) except of course the original Constitutions of 1581 which are included in the complete works of St. Teresa, which are basically the same as these from 1928. I'll post and scan more about it in the other thread when I can. :j