It’s sad to ascertain as all in the monastic life currently is adapted to modernity, to the consumerism, Capitalism: dresses, buildings, furniture, new technologies, continuous mitigations to the ancient rules. The monastic life has fear to testify the scandal of the poverty, of the austerity of the continuous penance and the prayer. The monastic life would have to propose an ancient model of life returning to its tradition a model that respects the nature and the animals and that it is only made of the essential thing or of the deprivation of the essential thing for sacrifice spirit, of expiation and penance. The scandal that saint Francis has represented for his age not is never more reproduced. We are therefore pusillanimous person that we do not know more to scandalize our brothers and our sisters with our hidden life of separation from the world, prayer and renunciation to the comforts and flatteries of the world more and more to the drift and corrupt.

Frate Umile

I am not sure I agree with you. There are many monasteries here in north america that combine the old traditions wiht the new technologies, buildings, and etc. The Rule of St. Benedict does allow for artisans to ply their trade as long as they don't get puffed up or greedy.

Not all monastic life is based on complete material poverty and rejection of technology. Incorporating new technology into evangelism and other work is an important part of some orders, even monastic ones.

I think you may want to be careful that you do not romanticize the monastic tradition.

I agree. I have a friend who wanted to enter a contemplative community, and who was deeply drawn to the most traditional Poor Clare monastery that she could find. She urged me to consider this particular monastery over the two Carmels that I was looking at, as the nuns wore wimples and rose to pray at 1.00am. These were her chief reasons for recommending the place to me. I was disturbed. She found it very tough going in that convent - for her 'the traditional monastic life' was all about flowing habits and enraptured silence, and she got disillusioned very quickly when she found that the reality didn't match her expectations.

Marcia Berstein's book Nuns mentions an idealistic young woman who entered a Welsh Carmel in the 1940s and was distraught to find the nuns sitting down to a hearty supper when she arrived. She had expected to live off nothing but the Communion host. I think we can be guilty of the same kind of romanticism when thinking about the religious life, even if we don't take it to that extreme. Nuns and monks are human beings. They don't live on another planet altogether. "We are very ordinary women and ours is a very ordinary life," cautions the website of Quidenham Carmel. That in itself can be a cross for postulants, who want something extra special.

I do not find nothing of romantic in the example of penances and deprivations that many saint monks and many saint nuns have left like warning to us of our weakness . All the great reformers of the religious orders at first have restored more hard and strict their rule. I think that the rules of our religious orders today are very laxist and corrupts. The young people are not more attracted from the religious life because a normal daily life is much harder living, than living in a convent that guarantees comfort and well-being that a worker today does not have. If the religious life represented an authentic sacrifice, an authentic imitation of the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ the vocations would be multiplied. Instead who embraces the religious life has assured food, comfortable beds, warm garments, heaters, air conditioners, car, televisions, moneies, etc. Hypocritical it’s to say that they belong to the order and not to the single ones, when the single ones of it gain all the advantages. Sure I know well that the radicalism scares the modest and lukewarm minds, those that today would be scared if there were a Christ still crucified or do not perceive of the many crucified siblings in the pain, disease and misery . By now the world has corrupt to us and to return to think free from its conditionings and from our daily habits it is much difficult. It is called: metanoia.

Frate Umile

Some of those things have been part of the monastic life for generations. And I have no doubts that some have joined monastic life for exactly those assurances. The monastery I plan on joining has heating, but no air conditioning. And no electricity in the guest house. There's a whole one television, and its only on for Movie Night once a month or so. There are a couple cars as well, but then again its 30 miles from the nearest town. Should they walk there and back for groceries? There is nothing hypocritical in saying that it belongs to the monastery or the order. That is simple truth. I see no reason to condemn modern monastics for being lukewarm or modemst because they are not the early Desert Fathers and do not live that life.

Hosea 6:6 reads, "For it is mercy I desire, not sacrifice, and knowledge of God rather than holocausts".
I would be careful to not put external vicarious self -imposed hardships and penances ahead of conversion of heart.
Simplicity of lifestyle is good for all of us who wish to be close to God, and certainly religious life should set an example of contentment with what God provides in common life. Liviing in community can be penance enough, you don't have to pile on much else, unless your object is to make people take notice of your sacrifice, which is a bit prideful, eh? I think Jesus had a bit more to say about those who make their sacrifices obvious to onlookers.
Some religious do live better than the rest of us. God will take note of that too. It doesn't bother me.

You do not want to understand blind people as you are. That God has mercy of you!

Frate Umile

Yes! Saint Therese was treated with scepticism by some members of her community (could Sister Therese of the Child Jesus really be as holy as some people made out?) because she refused to take part in the more austere penances favoured by the nuns at that Carmel. She would not hit herself, for example, even though self-flagellation was a widely accepted custom of the time. Yet could anybody call St Therese lukewarm or modernist in her thinking? She loved Jesus with everything she had, and she knew that He loved her. Secure in this knowledge, she saw no reason to put on a show of being holy according to the other nuns' expectations of her. So she didn't participate in all their penances.



I may be blind, but the Holy Spirit is a good guide-dog. Be careful with how you dismiss people, Frate Umile. Jesus' reference to logs and specks comes to mind here.

Disagreeing with frateumile is not necessarily the same as being blind. Do grasp that. For your own sake.

""If the religious life represented an authentic sacrifice, an authentic imitation of the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ the vocations would be multiplied.""

Penance (as you are thinking of it), fasting, and austere life are not the only ''authentic sacrifices''. Often people can become fond of certain penances through pride rather than pure motivation. Charity and moderation can be more of a sacrifice for people who desire such austere practices. For someone who desired to live in a permenant state of abstinence, it would be a greater sacrifice, and surely more pleasing to the Lord, to joyfully and thankfully accept a gift of meat every day than to abstain from meat.

Often in my own life I have to make sure that my motivation for devotions is because it is how I feel God is asking me to serve Him or praise Him and not my own prideful idea of how I want to serve or praise Him.

Let me tell you a story I heard some years ago from a person in religious life. There was a young man set to join the Carthusians. Someone mentioned how exciting and wonderful that must be for him. The young man became indignant. Oh no, he said, this is about penance, fasting, and mortification!

He lasted about three weeks

You can do all the disciplines in the world and have it mean nothing. Yet if you give God one moment of giving and give with total joy, then you have given everything. That young man had to learn this lesson. It's a life lesson I think we all have to learn.

I think that we must disitinguish between vocation and one vocation to the monastic life. One case is the vocation for the active religious life, other case is the vocation for the monastic and contemplative life to which God calls only some elect spirits, those spirits that are fascinated from the madness of the cross.

Frate Umile

Come sono il nipote di immigranti siciliani, risponderò nell'italiano (a frate umile).

È vero che Gesu ci dice nel vangelo di Luca (13:3) ciò a meno che infliggiamo una penitenza, periremo.

Le tradizioni lunghe di astinenza perpetua, i digiuni, portando la disciplina, ecc. sono tutta la dogana onorata di ordini come i carmelitani scalzi e capuccini. Soltanto alloggia sfortunatamente come quelli con le liturgie e vita tradizionali (Clark, Wyoming per i monaci e Valparaiso, Nebraska, USA per le suore) e Morgon, Francia trattiene tuttavia questi. Nessuno i dubbi questi sono importanti, o buoni, o utili.

Comunque, che dice tutti gli ordini, le congregazioni, le comunità o le case sono chiamate a questi?

Ricordare che il nostro Signore non vuole sempre la mortificazione esteriore (pesante), ma la mortificazione spesso interna. San. Giovanni della Croce, dottore della chiesa, sembra dare l'orgoglio di luogo agli atti interni, e descrive questo nella sua dottrina celeste.

Lasciare quelli che sono chiamato a un realmente rude, la risposta di vita di penitential alla vocazione e praticare questo. Quelli che non sono, fa non. Potere noi tutti impariamo a amare il Signore nella propria maniera, secondo il nostro carisma della regola o secondo le pratiche approvati dal nostro direttore spirituale.

I don't know if it's just me or not, but, I have heard that the young people are entering more Traditional, solid convents and monasteries, instead of the questionable orders that are actually dying today!

I don't think the original poster is talking about the questionable orders.

And, to the OP, I know what you are speaking of. I believe I have a monastic vocation and have applied for postulancy to the Dominican Nuns in Summit. I lived with them for three weeks this summer and it really broke all the misconceptions I had about monastic life.

A person could be entirely devoted and passionate about the Cross...but they do not choose how to serve God, God chooses. And this is even within a monastic vocation. We must love Christ more than we love penance and we must enter monastic life because of our love for Christ, not a love for penance.

I beg God to give us many vocations for a traditional monastic life. "Penance or Hell" there was writ in Padre Pio cell!

http://www.franciscan-archive.org/sosm/Flyer.pdf

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but you seem to be suggesting that the apostolic religious life is a soft option compared to the monastic life. That isn't true. It takes just as much courage and faith and endurance to live as an active sister or brother as it takes to live in the cloister. Each situation presents its own challenges, and just because apostolic religious have more contact with 'the world' as we know it doesn't mean that they have it easy or that their sacrifice isn't big enough. Sister Wendy Beckett, a hermit living in the wooded grounds of a Carmelite monastery in England, used to be a teacher with the Sisters of Notre Dame. She says that the life she led as an active sister was much more difficult and demanding for her personally than her current life as a hermit, which is very austere. (Sister Wendy's daily diet consists of raw vegetables, wholemeal bread, water, and a little milk, and she's been subsisting off this for years.)

Penance is essential, yes, but it's never about depriving yourself of food, making yourself continually cold, and not owning anything. It's about coming to a deeper knowledge of God, and that's something that can't be measured by externals.

In order to know God it must humiliate and mortify oneself, to cancel the own will and to punish our body source of every temptation and sin. The habit to the modern world, to its illusions and vanity does to think these words us of the heresies! Nevertheless this is the road that the Saints has taught to us, this is the road that the Child has taught to us who in these days is born in order to die on the cross in order to save us from our sinful nature.

Frate Umile

I really wish this thread would end.
My God is a God of love. He does not require me to mortify myself and punish myself to find Him. Thankfully thinking like this went out years ago and is practiced only by a few. This is not the way to find salvation.
I find some of your thoughts very distrubing and I certainly wonder you intend...not to edify that is for sure.

Firstly, humility is not the same as humiliation. I ask to be humbled, not humiliated. Different things.

Secondly, punishing the body and referring to it as the source of every temptation and sin is a heresy. It's a form of dualism. Unlike certain Protestant denominations, we believe in a physical resurrection - and this doctrine tells me all I need to know about the body's beauty and wonder in the eyes of God. When I fast, I'm not doing it to punish myself or to make my body hurt. I'm doing it to increase what we call taqwa in Arabic, a word that I've never been able to translate to my satisfaction. It is best summed up by the full and joyful realisation of a line from the famous prayer written by St Alphonsus of Liguori: "Soul of my soul, I adore thee." Fasting can help me to reach that realisation - it teaches me about what really matters in life and encourages me to act with true compassion towards those who do not have enough to eat. But if I start to feel ill during a fast, I always get something to eat and drink. It's important to be able to differentiate between penance and self-harm. Penance done in any other spirit leads to pride and exaltation of one's own capabilities for endurance.

Thirdly, this modern world is no more sinful than ancient Palestine was in the year of Jesus' birth. These 'illusions and vanities' that you speak of as being part of our current times are nothing new, as the opening refrain of the ancient book of Ecclesiastes makes clear: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity!" Wherever there are human beings, there is sin. It may change shape over the years, but it is always there. It's easy to blame modernity for our sins, as this is a convenient escape route for us - it allows us to judge people under the guise of being holy and to distract ourselves from the painful knowledge that we are what we condemn.

There are a couple points that I would like to make, to enlarge upon what CA has already said.

First, Metanoia can indeed be achieved through Mortification. But, in seeking mortification, we must steer between the twin errors of jansenism and sadomasochism. Mortifications do not become more effective by being harsher. That way of thinking can lead to the heresy of jansenism. In seeking mortification, one must do so with the goal of metanoia in mind. Lose sight of that and you risk sliding into simple sadomasochism.

Second. Yes, many of the saints do advocate mortification as a path to metanoia. But does that make St. Benedict less of a saint because his Rule is less rigorous than that of St. Francis? I don't think so. Are those who are called to the full rigor of St. Francis' original Rule ipso facto more holy than those who are called to the rigorous moderation of the Rule of St. Benedict? I don't think so.

It is greeat that you believe yourself to be called to follow the rule of the original franciscans, but do not denigrate those who either cannot handle that or are not called to it in the first place.

Yeah... don't we have mods? Does a mod want to maybe lock the thread?

Let's remember that Frate Umile's first language isn't English and he may even be using an online translator on some parts, so let's show mercy and understanding as God does and calls us to.

From St. Issac of Nineveh: "It is not fitting that when you live spaciously, you rejoice, but in afflictions are cast down and consider them foreign to the Way of God. For from aages and generations HIS Way is carved out by the Cross and Death.
Whence have you got this idea of treading the Way of God in comfort?
Learn from this that you are not in the Way of God, but drifting aside from it; that you do not wish to follow in the footsteps of the saints, but that you intend to create a "Special Way" for yourself, to be followed without suffering. The Way to God is a Daily Cross. No one has ascended to Heaven through easy life. We know where the Easy Way leads."
Ascetic Homilies 67, St. Issac of Nineveh
7th Century
Beloved Brethern,
I have sought throughout this Lent of the Apostles some way to communicate to you how far most of us are from Christian Salvation. " Nothing is worse for the soul than Bodily Comfort" (Tito Coliander, the Way of Ascetics) .
During this Summer Lent, some of us have to endure extreme heat, fleas and other unpleasant discomforts sent by God for our Salvation. In fact. many of us have ancestors who came to America to get rich and live in comfort, because they did not believe the Saying of the Lord , " Blessed be ye Poor! Woe to ye Rich! ( Luke 6:20 ff )
In my more than fifty years in religion, I have been blest to see many of the ancient ascetic practices of Christians going back to the very first centuries, and which endured, at least here and there, into the 20th century. Some of these are essential to Salvation! This is certain! The "New Christianity" which grows not from Sacred Tradition and 20 centuries of Practice, but from Comfort and a Mass Desire to excuse what is diametically opposed to the Christian Way.
When I was young, many many Christians slept on the floor for ascetic reasons, and married Christians always had separate beds for those many times when they should not sleep together, and separate bedrooms if they could afford it. Hair cloth was still sold in the market in the Holy City. Many monks kept a small container of ashes at hand to sprinkle over their food. Monks did not bathe unless they were ill. There are no bathing facilities on Athos, or at Mar Saba.
Many monks wore, besides hairshirts, chains, iron belts and other painful penitential devices, and the laity often received permission from their confessors to do the same. A mere cord drawn tight around the waste was very common, and very painful. Abba John the Little in Fifth Century Egypt was tortured by carnal warfare, which he overcame by burning the most sensitive parts of his body with hot coals. In the 20th century, iodine achieved the same purpose. This separates those who really want to be chaste from those who don't. Salvation depends upon it.
All these penances and more were in common use in the 20th century in monasteries in the Holy Land, AND among the laity. Many who had beds had them only for disguise, and never actually slept in them until they became too old to get up and down.
I remember too vividly how the older monks would reproach the novices for even fanning themselves with cardboard. We were there to do penance for our sins, and the sins of others.
If the laity had to work in offices and were "Keeping up Appearances," they because very ingenious at means of self - discipline that none might notice. They observed all rules of the work place or traffic meticulously, since all authority comes from God, and self will is to be fled like the Devil. They chose not what they wanted to eat, but what they liked least. Every laymen had a time of day to himself to read holy books and to pray in silence, but especially on Fast Days, Lents, and Holy Days.
I am forced to write these details now because many seem to never have even heard of them. Instead of as Christians, seeking the most Spartan and austere living accommodations, Christians live in luxury of which no emperor ever dreamed. Many do not even tithe, as the Lord Himself insists no one must neglect, despising the very Word of the LORD, without which they cannot be saved, and the clergy are to afraid to preach the Gospel to them! (They seem to fear their waiter more than God!) Christians have become lukewarm, undistinguishable from men of the world, and will inherit the same reward in the Next Life.
Hairshirts were worn by all kinds of Christians from the 2nd Century on,(if not earlier) as the Body of St. Cecelia (+160 A.D.) shows. St. Basil mentions his mother wearing one. Until very recent times, they were as common as dirt. St. Seraphim of Sarov is closer to us in time than George Washington, and he lived as a stylite on a rock for a thousand days, besides many other asceticisms. What has happened to us that our spiritual lives have declined almost beyond recognition in a lifetime. I remember the old lady who knew the 150 psalms in Arabic, and recited them or hummed them to herself while scrubbing the floors. I have seen countless ascetics who slept always on the floor for decades, and gathered burrs and nettles like prizes to put into their clothes. I hope and pray that there be some in the Levant that still live like this; such a Christian Life seems to have died out in America. I remember the dire warnings of ascetics in the East when they heard of central heating, and especially air conditioning being introduced into America. They are considered essential, but they are not, except as essential to the destruction of the Christian Life. These comforts cost, and so as rich as we are, Christians no longer tithe. In fact, Orthodox Christians contribute less to their churches, statistically than any other religion. We stand condemned and disgraced. Why are there not more and more serious concerts to Orthodox Christianity? Nobody can believe that we are serious Christians if we do not at least tithe, and they are right.
I am old and sickly, and I will not much longer be recounting the Lives of the Righteous of the 20th Century with their daily ascetic efforts, especially I must not forget to mention Prostrations, so neglected here and now. St. Issac of Nineveh says to make as many as possible, but never less than 30 a day. The Czar Alexei Michaelovich made one thousand every day while ruling a turbulent state, and even a LATIN king of Jerusalem made a thousand a day. What does this say about our "Christianity"?
Beloved Christians, I beg you to listen and hearken to the examples of our fathers, which I myself observed in the 20th century, already a period of sharp decline, and to repent of the lukewarmness, and of the sins of indulgence which are everywhere accepted, and about which not one clergymen in a thousand dares speak! Do not follow the Easy Way. We know where the Easy Way leads.
In another place, Tito Coliander writes, "Those who do not fast cannot understand even the simplest Mysteries of the Holy Trinity. And so we see those who do not take up their cross, see no problem when their clergy betray the Church, as is happening wholesale. Useless to even speak to them until they embrace the Cross of Self Denial.
God save us all. Remember me in your prayers. Remember what I have told you of 20th century Christianity in the Holy Land. It is not likely to ever return.
Burning Bush Monastery

I can only say I hope you have a Blessed and Peaceful Christmas!

Ironic that Frate Umile's message of strict asceticism and ancient observance is being delivered via modern innovations -- computer and internet.

I see you Know Better. Well, God bless and keep you then

Many persons today be shocked themselves when they hear to speak about corporal penance, of the use of the cilices and the disciplines. For them the saints were masochist or to be saint people it is equivalent to be masochist. Masochist was our Lord who has been spat and slapped, that has been flagellated to the column, that is died in cross for us. To this have come the modernism and the corruption of our times!
The sense of the penance, the mortification, the humiliation and the maceration of the flesh from now has gone lost. Not there is from being astonished: the cross has been always scandal reason and the saints always have been considers from the persons of the world of the mad: in fact the saints are least, the sinners the overwhelming majority of the humanity!
That although for vain and futile reasons the persons are exposed to great sacrifices, if not to corporal suffering (exercises, diets, aesthetic surgeries, etc...) in order to recover or to conserve a sure image that the others can admire. This is not masochism! It is love for oneself! While this happens, many are not strained not to understand the deep sense of the "corporal penance" that expresses desire to expiate the own iniquity and to join to the suffering of the sacrifice of Christ. Christ has not made man in order to enjoy the life, but in order to die in the suffering of the cross. He comprises himself that, in an age in which messages of the type are diffused "not to deprive you of null!" he has become extremely difficult to understand the same reasons of the renunciations, the penance and the mortification. If "it can do all"; if null he is badly, once that it has been decided in full autonomy; if, after all, the sin does not exist, the Hell does not exist, then not is just null for which doing penance. The "mortification" turns out therefore incomprehensible, the punishment of the body, (that is, the deep evangelic paradox according to which, for living, it must in some way to die: like Christ, the Christian must come down in the tomb for, like Christ, to exit for the eternal life).
Between the cried maxims more of our age there is: "the body is mine and makes with it those that it seems and it appeals to me". It is at least conflicting that it admits the lawfulness of any corporal behavior, included those aberrant, and is scandal reason one monastic life of poverty, confinement and corporal penance. The corporal penance the instruments of mortification of the flesh do part of the ascetic tradition of the Church and have been used from all Saints. Penances, mortifications, acts of humiliation are "the external prayer of the body", with the ascetic exercises fight the temptations, the human wicked nature, the pride and arrogance, submit our will in order to learn the charity, the obedience and the moderation of mind. We not only must accept how much every day gives to us of penance since this joins to our brothers and our sisters to us, but if we want to load on the shoulders the cross and to follow in the penitential vocation Our Lord we must search how much produces suffering to us and uneasiness, how much is narrow and annoying in the continuous inner and outer mortification.

The cross was not masochistic, because Jesus did not permit himself to be crucified out of a desire to experience crucifixion. He let himself be killed for the sake of those he loved. It brought us closer to him. It had a purpose.

Penance is good. I don't think anybody here denies that. But penance must be purposeful. If you're doing it purely for the sake of the pain and the endurance and the extravagance of self-inflicted violence - which is what masochism means, and what some now-obsolete penances can so easily become - there is something very wrong.

I ask you again: was St Therese of Lisieux any less holy than the ascetics who lived high up on pillars, because she refused to take part in extreme physical penances?

is this organization/person supported by their Bishop?

agreed.

please remember people, mods cannot patrol every single thread - so it's important that you, as phatmassers, report threads you think might be objectionable. thank you

Actually, St. Therese, did take the discipline, and severely. When she gave herself the discipline, she wanted to feel it, because she didn't believe in doing anything by half measures. I don't know about St. Therese participating in community penances, but her spirituality is VERY penitential if lived out correctly. A true spirit of penance is central to her spirituality!

How can you be humble without being humiliated?

Being humbled involves accepting the truth of who you are and your limitations, recognising that what good is in you is the gift of God for service to others and what is bad in you is your own, and cheerfully depending on God. That can be done without humiliation. Admittedly though, somepeople will not learn humility without humiliation.

I learnt that she was not harsh with her body from a Carmelite novice mistress (Ruth Burrows) who has written books on Therese's spirituality among many other subjects. The relevant passage is in To Believe in Jesus. The only reference to Therese taking the discipline that I can find is a suspiciously poetic description that talks about the speed of her whipping and how 'tears bedewed her eyelashes' as she stared at her crucifix. But this doesn't quite fit somehow, as physical penance is practised in the solitude of the cell and there could have been no one to witness it, let alone get close enough to see the tears on Therese's eyelashes. Quite a few myths and poetic flights of fancy surround the story of Therese. If she writes about flogging herself till she cried anywhere in her own writings, please let me know - it's possible that I am mistaken. I am going by only one source, after all.

I'm not denying that penance is important. It's crucial. But I don't believe that subjecting yourself to extremes is usually a sign of a penitential spirit. It's very easy to mistake fanaticism for fervour and praise it accordingly.

Um. I've never read anything about Saint Therese crying from giving herself the discipline. However, I can say with certainty that she was known to hit herself violently when she did take the discipline (which all Carmelites did at that time). I don't think this should be surprising, since it was a common monastic practice at that time.

My comments on our brother's comments on monasticism are these: Whether or not you agree with everything he is saying specifically, it is true that the indulgence of our bodies (and the following vices/sins such as gluttony, lust, sloth) are running rampant in our society, and it is very possible that this spirit of indulgence has filtered down into our monastic communities. A true spirit of penance is one of the best remedies to this spirit of indulgence.
I must say I am more than a little surprised at the reaction in this phorum to our brother's comments on penance and monastic life. Someone even wrote that God desires mercy,not sacrifice, and that God is a God of love,not self-abuse. Surely there is not such a lack of understanding among us about something as basic as penance? Our brother is calling us to penane, which should be a good thing. It is so necessary to a genuine spiritual life. Some Saint said that a person who thinks themselves holy but does not punish(mortify) his body is deluded.

... According to a book called "My Beloved" written by a Carmelite nun in the 50s (I can find more details if someone is interested), the discipline was (is?) taken in choir, by all the nuns at the same time, such and such number of nights per month. Yes? No?

I don't think anyone is saying that penance is bad. I think it is more of a concern that penance, especially the kind of penances the original poster was describing, must be done ONLY under a competent spiritual director or confessor. Penance is certainly important, but it is the METHOD of penance that was being debated. Corporal penances such as fasting (outside the norms of the Church) can be dangerous both physically and spiritually. A competent spiritual director or confessor must wisely discern the motive for partaking in such a penance and must keep watch over it. Penance (of any kind) done in the wrong spirit can lead to pride rather than humility.

Please remember St. Anthony of the Desert who warned the other monks that the Devil can tempt people to fast and pray in such a way that is physically and spiritually harmful.

Abba and the Bowman
A hunter in the desert saw Abba Anthony enjoying himself with the brethren and he was shocked. Wanting to show him that it was necessary sometimes to meet the needs of the brethren, the old man said to him,
"Put an arrow in your bow and shoot it."
So he did. The old man then said,
"Shoot another,"
and he did so. Then the old man said,
"Shoot yet again,"
and the hunter replied,
"If I bend my bow so much I will break it."
Then the old man said to him,
"It is the same with the work of God. If we stretch the brethren beyond measure they will soon break. Sometimes it is necessary to come down to meet their needs."
When he heard these words the hunter was pierced by compunction and, greatly edified by the old man, he went away. As for the brethren, they went home strengthened.

During the later part of the 19th century, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, Doctor of the Church, at three years of age was described by her mother: "Even Thérèse is anxious to practice mortification.” And Thérèse later wrote: "My God, I will not be a saint by halves. I am not afraid of suffering for Thee.” The "Little Flower", famous for her "little way" and love of God -- hard fasted, wore the cilice and used the 'discipline' vigorously, "scourging herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes," according to one of her biographers.
In the early 20th century, The seers of Fatima said they were told by the angel: "In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for sinners. In this way you will bring peace to our country, for I am its guardian angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, bear and accept with patience the sufferings God will send you." They reported that the idea of making sacrifices was repeated several times by the Virgin Mary. The children wore tight cords around their waist and abstained from drinking water on hot days. The Virgin Mary reportedly told them that God was pleased with their sacrifices and bodily penances.

All the souls are not called from God to the sacrifice of the penance. But those that He calls they are not considered fanatical and masochist. God has only called Himself to the crucifixion and He has been limited to say that who wants to follow Him leaves the things of the world, the house and the affections and he loads the cross on his shoulders. It is useless to deny it: the cross is weight, pain and suffering. If then we are not disposed to admit it it is because we have fear and we are of the lukewarm Christians. For our fortune the Saints did not think it therefore and Our Lord in His infinite Mercy still gives us gifts like this because they can save to us.

http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html

Frateumile, the passage on St Therese's beating herself until she cried is taken almost word-for-word from Wikipedia. I've already quoted that passage. My problem is that I can't find a more authoritative source.

Secondly, no one is denying that mortification is necessary.

What we are concerned about is the MANNER of mortification that you are advocating. This sort of thing can very easily become a test of one's own endurance rather than genuine penance and a symptom of either self-loathing or pride. Yes, pride.

As Brendan suggests, you may not be very good at a picking up on the nuances in the English language. Perhaps a Phatmasser who speaks your first language could translate.

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice," is a direct quotation from the Bible.

I'm pretty sure that St. Therese herself mentions giving herself the discipline in the Story of a Soul, but I'm not positive; I could have read it in the testimonies for her beatification, or perhaps some of her letters. I'll research it and get back to you.

Actually, the call to penance is universal.

Yes, I know that.

*puts on mod hat*

before this thread gets too heated - i'll remind everyone that the Vocation Station is for supporting others in their vocation, and getting support. not for debating or arguing. you wanna do that, you go to the Debate Table.

everyone mind their p's and q's, please, and we'll get along just fine.

My last comment on this thread-
From the Catechism:

1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right,33 by the admission of faults to one's brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one's cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.34

And Our Lady at Fatima :In August of 1917 Our Lady told the children, “pray much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.”
“Many persons,” Sr. Lucia explained, “feeling that the word penance implies great austerities, and not feeling that they have the strength for great sacrifices, become discouraged and continue a life of lukewarmness and sin.” Then she said Our Lord explained to her: “The sacrifice required of every person is the fulfillment of his duties in life and the observance of My law. This is the penance that I now seek and require.”
"Penance, penance, penance!"
This is all I mean to say.