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nunsense
Ok, don't all of you jump down my throat at once and tell me what a failure I am - ok? bigshock.gif

What I need now is lots of prayers and some practical advice. I left Carmel on Saturday, amidst lots of hugs and kisses and well wishes and promises of prayers for me from the community. They were fabulous, and Mother Elizabeth (the new Prioress) has emailed me since I got back to say that they are keeping me in their prayers and also said "May the Lord guide you and keep you and give you abundant light on the path he wants you to follow." So I want you all to know that I still love them and support anyone who is considering a vocation to Wolverhampton Carmel. They are a traditional, warm and loving community and I am so sorry that my vocation was not with them.

So why did I leave? Well, after consultation with both Reverend Mother (who was my Novice Mistress prior to becoming Prioress) and my spiritual director (a priest), I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.

Mother did try to accommodate my need for more solitude ever since I first got there -- with a hermit day in December and then, of course, I had the 8 day retreat before my clothing. She even offered to let me pray alone in the Novitiate occasionally (instead of in the choir with the community, which is what they do) because I kept telling her that I needed more time alone with God. Finally, after much prayer and discussion about this, it became clear that God was calling me to a life of more solitude with him. So, although it was heartbreaking for all of us in the community (with many tears when I left), Mother agreed that I should follow my heart and try out the life of a hermit.

The revealing thing is that before I applied to Carmel, I had mentioned to my spiritual director of the time (who was a hermit himself) that I wanted to be a hermit, but he told me that I should first experience formation in community! So I don't regret a moment of the time I spent in formation with the loving sisters of the Wolverhamption community, but I think my true vocation is asserting itself now. I am especially grateful however, for the opportunity to learn how to recite the Divine Office! When I first entered Carmel, I was so lost during the Office and thought I would never know how to navigate it. Now I just love it and feel so happy to be able to say it every day.

Anyway, now I am back in California while I attempt to research my "hermit options". I have considered finding a small place to live with a simple part-time job to support myself, and then seek out a Bishop who will allow me to consecrate myself to him as a hermit (there is a woman in Oakland CA who is a consecrated hermit). The other thing I have considered is the Hermits of Bethlehem or their neighbors, The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt Carmel (O Carm affiliation). But right now I am in heavy duty prayer mode while I see where the Holy Spirit is leading me.

I would be interested in any information that phatmassers have about hermit communities that I could research, or perhaps other hermit type suggestions? All I know right now is that wherever I end up, I need a lot of solitude and time alone in prayer.

Once again, thank you all for your love and support. Don't be sad for me - God is always taking care of us and as St Teresa said "God alone suffices!" Pray for me please that I may find God's path for me. bigpray.gif

Annie (formerly Sr Teresa of Jesus)


dakurgie
Annie you are in my prayers as you discern your vocation as a hermit.

Did you know that there is a yahoo group--Catholic Hermits--who discuss their vocation?

Peace and Blessings,

Donna
Sr. Mary Catharine
QUOTE(nunsense @ Mar 12 2008, 08:16 PM) *
Ok, don't all of you jump down my throat at once and tell me what a failure I am - ok? bigshock.gif

What I need now is lots of prayers and some practical advice. I left Carmel on Saturday, amidst lots of hugs and kisses and well wishes and promises of prayers for me from the community. They were fabulous, and Mother Elizabeth (the new Prioress) has emailed me since I got back to say that they are keeping me in their prayers and also said "May the Lord guide you and keep you and give you abundant light on the path he wants you to follow." So I want you all to know that I still love them and support anyone who is considering a vocation to Wolverhampton Carmel. They are a traditional, warm and loving community and I am so sorry that my vocation was not with them.

So why did I leave? Well, after consultation with both Reverend Mother (who was my Novice Mistress prior to becoming Prioress) and my spiritual director (a priest), I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.

Mother did try to accommodate my need for more solitude ever since I first got there -- with a hermit day in December and then, of course, I had the 8 day retreat before my clothing. She even offered to let me pray alone in the Novitiate occasionally (instead of in the choir with the community, which is what they do) because I kept telling her that I needed more time alone with God. Finally, after much prayer and discussion about this, it became clear that God was calling me to a life of more solitude with him. So, although it was heartbreaking for all of us in the community (with many tears when I left), Mother agreed that I should follow my heart and try out the life of a hermit.

The revealing thing is that before I applied to Carmel, I had mentioned to my spiritual director of the time (who was a hermit himself) that I wanted to be a hermit, but he told me that I should first experience formation in community! So I don't regret a moment of the time I spent in formation with the loving sisters of the Wolverhamption community, but I think my true vocation is asserting itself now. I am especially grateful however, for the opportunity to learn how to recite the Divine Office! When I first entered Carmel, I was so lost during the Office and thought I would never know how to navigate it. Now I just love it and feel so happy to be able to say it every day.

Anyway, now I am back in California while I attempt to research my "hermit options". I have considered finding a small place to live with a simple part-time job to support myself, and then seek out a Bishop who will allow me to consecrate myself to him as a hermit (there is a woman in Oakland CA who is a consecrated hermit). The other thing I have considered is the Hermits of Bethlehem or their neighbors, The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt Carmel (O Carm affiliation). But right now I am in heavy duty prayer mode while I see where the Holy Spirit is leading me.

I would be interested in any information that phatmassers have about hermit communities that I could research, or perhaps other hermit type suggestions? All I know right now is that wherever I end up, I need a lot of solitude and time alone in prayer.

Once again, thank you all for your love and support. Don't be sad for me - God is always taking care of us and as St Teresa said "God alone suffices!" Pray for me please that I may find God's path for me. bigpray.gif

Annie (formerly Sr Teresa of Jesus)


Annie, the Hermits of Bethlehem are near us and would provide the structure for community yet are really hermits. The Carmel next door has only 4 sisters and probably aren't too much different from usual Carmelite Life. I think they come together daily for some of the Offices.

Sr. Mary Catharine

PS, You're not a failure. Postulancy and Novitiate is about making a trial of the life. That's the whole point!
nunsense
QUOTE(Sr. Mary Catharine @ Mar 12 2008, 07:40 PM) *
Annie, the Hermits of Bethlehem are near us and would provide the structure for community yet are really hermits. The Carmel next door has only 4 sisters and probably aren't too much different from usual Carmelite Life. I think they come together daily for some of the Offices.

Sr. Mary Catharine

PS, You're not a failure. Postulancy and Novitiate is about making a trial of the life. That's the whole point!


Sr Mary Catherine

I have had a strong desire to check out the Hermits of Bethlehem ever since I read about them on phatmass and checked out various articles on them. I have ordered Father Romano's two books from Amazon but am still waiting to get them. I was thinking of sending him a letter or phoning him but thought that perhaps he would be out of touch during Lent. I will certainly follow this up though.

Thank you for your prayers. I don't really feel like a failure since I am so happy for the loving kindness of the community, but I was kind of hoping that my search was over when I entered. One of the sisters there did tell me a joke though --- "If you want to make God laugh, tell Him YOUR plans!" lol.gif

In His love
Annie
nunsense
QUOTE(dakurgie @ Mar 12 2008, 06:53 PM) *
Annie you are in my prayers as you discern your vocation as a hermit.

Did you know that there is a yahoo group--Catholic Hermits--who discuss their vocation?

Peace and Blessings,

Donna


Thank you so much - I didn't know about them and have just applied to join. rolleyes.gif
the lords sheep
Annie,
You will be in my prayers. Thank you so much for your honesty and for your trust in God. By coming back and letting us be a part of your life and discernment, you are offering us so much wisdom and encouragement.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your witness, and I will pray for you as you continue to seek the Lord's will in your life.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren
Cathoholic Anonymous
You are in my prayers, Annie. I'm glad that you know where you are called to be now. My one sorrow is that I never got the opportunity to visit you when you were in England.

There is a hermit who lives in the woods near Quidenham, under the protection of the Carmelites there. She has Mass with the nuns, but she sits in a little alcove where she can be seen by neither the nuns nor the public. One sister is delegated to put out her food in a little outhouse, which she collects daily. She spends the rest of the time in her hermitage. She entered the Sisters of Notre Dame in 1946, when she was sixteen years old, but she left to become a hermit in 1970 after realising that God was calling her into deeper solitude. She has been in the grounds of Quidenham ever since. smile.gif She does write letters, so perhaps you could contact her to ask for her prayers and advice.
Stacey
Hi Annie, greetings and lots of prayers from all of us here at Colwich, i heard you left and i'm glad you are back on phatmass, you sound positive and calm and i am sure you will take something good with you and into your new life. i thought these might be interesting -
http://www.hermitary.com http://skyfarm.org and there has also been a thread on here before its under 'i'm curious' by drewmeister2 in December 2004, there seems to be a whole list of places on that, i hope they help and wish you well with many prayers,
sr marie-therese
praying4carmel
Annie,

God bless you! You're not a Failure! Thank you for your honesty. Once again, it's refreshing!

I will be praying for you as you discern this next step in your journey to our Lord.

May you be blessed with His Peace and Joy.

Nancy

gloriagurl
QUOTE(nunsense @ Mar 12 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Ok, don't all of you jump down my throat at once and tell me what a failure I am - ok? bigshock.gif

What I need now is lots of prayers and some practical advice. I left Carmel on Saturday, amidst lots of hugs and kisses and well wishes and promises of prayers for me from the community. They were fabulous, and Mother Elizabeth (the new Prioress) has emailed me since I got back to say that they are keeping me in their prayers and also said "May the Lord guide you and keep you and give you abundant light on the path he wants you to follow." So I want you all to know that I still love them and support anyone who is considering a vocation to Wolverhampton Carmel. They are a traditional, warm and loving community and I am so sorry that my vocation was not with them.

So why did I leave? Well, after consultation with both Reverend Mother (who was my Novice Mistress prior to becoming Prioress) and my spiritual director (a priest), I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.

Mother did try to accommodate my need for more solitude ever since I first got there -- with a hermit day in December and then, of course, I had the 8 day retreat before my clothing. She even offered to let me pray alone in the Novitiate occasionally (instead of in the choir with the community, which is what they do) because I kept telling her that I needed more time alone with God. Finally, after much prayer and discussion about this, it became clear that God was calling me to a life of more solitude with him. So, although it was heartbreaking for all of us in the community (with many tears when I left), Mother agreed that I should follow my heart and try out the life of a hermit.

The revealing thing is that before I applied to Carmel, I had mentioned to my spiritual director of the time (who was a hermit himself) that I wanted to be a hermit, but he told me that I should first experience formation in community! So I don't regret a moment of the time I spent in formation with the loving sisters of the Wolverhamption community, but I think my true vocation is asserting itself now. I am especially grateful however, for the opportunity to learn how to recite the Divine Office! When I first entered Carmel, I was so lost during the Office and thought I would never know how to navigate it. Now I just love it and feel so happy to be able to say it every day.

Anyway, now I am back in California while I attempt to research my "hermit options". I have considered finding a small place to live with a simple part-time job to support myself, and then seek out a Bishop who will allow me to consecrate myself to him as a hermit (there is a woman in Oakland CA who is a consecrated hermit). The other thing I have considered is the Hermits of Bethlehem or their neighbors, The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt Carmel (O Carm affiliation). But right now I am in heavy duty prayer mode while I see where the Holy Spirit is leading me.

I would be interested in any information that phatmassers have about hermit communities that I could research, or perhaps other hermit type suggestions? All I know right now is that wherever I end up, I need a lot of solitude and time alone in prayer.

Once again, thank you all for your love and support. Don't be sad for me - God is always taking care of us and as St Teresa said "God alone suffices!" Pray for me please that I may find God's path for me. bigpray.gif

Annie (formerly Sr Teresa of Jesus)



Annie,

I agree - you are NOT a failure. As for the Hermits of Bethlehem and the Hermits of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel.....I wrote to the Hermits of Bethlehem and never received a response....that's not a criticism, just a fact. What I know about them is from their book and also from some information picked up on the web and in diocesan publications. So that you know, they are all Diocesan Hermits under Canon 603 - so you would need to obtain this status to join them in their life. I do not know if you do that before joining or after....I'm sure they will tell you that part. They are NOT a community.....but they share the land and live under the same Rule and hold all things in common.

The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, are indeed "hermits" and their life "in community" while affliated with the Carmelite Order is not a typical Carmel. The hermits live in individual dwellings around a common "center" and "chapel" - they have parts of the Office in common (as do all eremetical communities - even Carthusians) and they share a meal once a week (at least that's what it was several years ago), they work in solitude. I believe they have "room" for 1 or 2 more hermits. I go there for Holy Week and sometimes attend their once a month "desert day" which is given by the Desert Mother - the other hermits do not participate in the retreat day except for they are clearly present at Mass - the only one you might see (besides Mother Mary) is if one of the hermits is the Lector for Mass. If you google them you will find a very nice, informative web site. I discerned with them at one point, but chose to go another way...but it wasn't because of anything that I found distasteful about them at all. In fact, I was very impressed with them. Mother Mary is lovely, kind, compassionate and from what I have experienced there, the community is mature (I'm not talking "age", although all the hermits are "older" one or two are grandmothers) stable and emotionally sound and very, very open to questions about their community and "way" of living out their call as Hermits in the ancient tradition of Carmel.

Do you know about the Monastic Family of Bethlehem and the Blessed Virgin Mary in Livingston Manor NY? I don't know a lot about them, I did visit once for a retreat...I didn't interact too much with any of the hermits but that was my choice, I was told I could speak with someone if I wanted to. They are in a BEAUTIFUL location, very secluded and lovely - their spirituality is that of St. Bruno and they are considered Carthusian "in their way" though they are not Carthusians "properly speaking".

I am very well acquainted with the hermits group on yahoo.....I have to be honest, I don't find it much "practical" help but exposure to others living the eremetic life is positive in general. Raven's Bread is a newsletter you might consider receiving....you can google that for their web site...there you will find a number of resources for living the eremetic life according to Canon 603...but also know that MANY of the hermits on the yahoo list are not "regularized", they simply live the life without public vows or official recognition of any kind...that is a matter of discernment. If you join the group you will have access to their files/archives and there you will find the GUIDEBOOK TO EREMETIC LIFE written by Sr. Marlene Wisenbeck, FSPA Ph.D JCL (Canon Lawyer) of the Diocese of LaCrosse Wisconsin. It is EXTREMELY well written and it lays out, in detail, the entire process (including all practical considerations) for becoming a Hermit under Canon 603. It is, in some ways, specific to the Diocese of LaCrosse but MOST of it would be applicable in any diocese. It is invaluable if you decide to go the route of a diocesan hermit...and it is free to download.

You have lots of choices and I'm certain the Holy Spirit will guide you if you are open and willing....which you certainly seem to be. There are also LOTS of new eremetic communities popping up, so if you are open to something "in process" you have in more choices. Clearly some are more suitable, advanced, stable etc than others and researching communities in development can be tricky...but certainly possible...just exercise caustion and discernment and you will be fine. Please feel free to email me privately if you wish.

Pax!
nunsense
Thanks again everyone for all the posts and support. I contacted Father Romano by phone today (Hermits of Bethlehem) and he said that he said spoken with many religious who had felt a lack of solitude in their community environments. Some of them had come to Bethlehem for retreats and had left feeling very refreshed. He is going to send me a DVD and other info about their community and he advised me to come for a 2 week live-in retreat to see if the lifestyle is something I would like. He was very easy to talk to and made me feel good about myself. I am certainly looking forward to receiving the info from him. I have already ordered his two books from Amazon but they haven't arrived yet.

Father Romano did tell me that the Carmelites next door to him do pray some of the Office in community together. I don't mind that, since I did enjoy reciting the Office in community, but wherever I end up, I also need time alone for prayer. So now I will pray a lot and try to let God guide me.

In the meantime, I have been praying for some idea of what to do while I am discerning again - and today I was offered a job with living quarters, caring for an elderly lady who really just needs someone around in case she falls. She doesn't like anyone "hovering" over her and I have been told that I will have lots of time to pray and be alone if I want. Their main concern is my being there first thing in the morning to help her shower and dress, and then again to be there at night so she isn't alone in the house. During the day she has activities in her retirement center, or she reads or naps. She doesn't like TV so the place is usually quiet. I will have time to recite the Office, read and pray, with enough work to keep me useful and helpful. I couldn't have planned a better position - so we know who has been at work with this now, don't we lol.gif ? I am sure that all your prayers for me have drawn His attention to my plight! Keep praying pray.gif

The other good thing is that when I was asked when I wanted to start work, I mentioned that it was Holy Week next week, so they were happy for me to start after Easter. The retirement home is run by the Episcopal church so it has a Christian outlook and these employers are so understanding of my situation (I told them everything) so now I can spend this next week with Our Lord during His Passion, death and resurrection and attend services in one of the many local churches, without spending time worrying about where I am going to live or how I will support myself!

I know that God always takes care of us, but sometimes it is so hard to trust completely and to stop trying to take control. Then something happens that reminds me just how much we are loved and inspires me once again to try to "Let go, let God."

You are all an inspiration to me and are in my prayers too! Thank you!

in His love
Annie
the lords sheep
How wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!! Praise God!! I'm really so happy for you!
May the Lord bless you as everything else falls into place!
Lauren
shortnun
Annie, as so many have said before me, you have our continued prayers. I, for one, am grateful that you've kept us "up to speed" on your vocation story. I think your perseverance and your faithful ear toward the voice of the Spirit is inspiration for all of us.

Pax.
nunsense
QUOTE(shortnun @ Mar 18 2008, 08:43 AM) *
Annie, as so many have said before me, you have our continued prayers. I, for one, am grateful that you've kept us "up to speed" on your vocation story. I think your perseverance and your faithful ear toward the voice of the Spirit is inspiration for all of us.

Pax.


Thank you again. I probably haven't responded to every post on here personally, but I do appreciate everyone being so kind. Lately my experience is that of St Paul where he said that it is in his weakness that Christ's power can be made perfect. I don't know about perfect, but I do know that I am relying heavily on Jesus for his strength right now. Things are going well for me externally and I start a new (live-in) job next Monday, so I have no worries really. But in my heart I know that God is still calling me to something - I just don't know what. So it is almost as if I have begun the discernment process all over again. I am a good example to everyone who is discerning to take your time and visit, visit, visit before making any decisions. So, maybe my not so successful experience can serve as a lesson for someone else. As lovely as the Wolverhampton Carmel is, they were not the right fit for me, and only God understands why. They tried, and I tried, but the shoe just didn't fit. I think I am one of Cinderella's ugly stepsisters who was trying to cram her huge foot into that tiny glass slipper rolleyes.gif

Mother Prioress has been so kind and even sent me a photo of a tea party they had recently in celebration of a sister who is celebrating the 60th anniverary of her clothing.



The nun in front is Reverend Mother Elizabeth - she was my Novice Mistress and is now Prioress. Next to her is the sister who is celebrating her anniverary. This is taken in the Infirmary since this sister has been ill for a long time.

All I do know is that God is kindness and holding me very close right now. I adore Him and worship and pray for His guidance in all things. I have a beautiful picture of Jesus' face that a sister from Wolverhampton gave to me, and underneath the picture it says...


"Only God would have thought of such a gift...
and only the love of God would have given it."

Dom Eugene Boylan OCSO
Margaret Clare
Hi Annie!!! I was away for Lent, but have been meaning to contact you! I'm going to have to PM/email you, but in the meantime I thought I'd post in your thread a book I think you would really enjoy, Nazarena, An American Anchoress. She was actually in two Discalced Carmelite Monasteries, first in RI then Italy, until she found her true calling. Also, here's an article on her: A Nun's Story I'll definitely be keeping you in prayer. May God bless you as you continue to discern His Will!
praxedes
Dear Margaret Clare,
Thank you for making the links public.
I just read the article, and I just ordered the book.
Pax,
Praxedes
nunsense
QUOTE(Margaret Clare @ Mar 31 2008, 12:50 PM) *
Hi Annie!!! I was away for Lent, but have been meaning to contact you! I'm going to have to PM/email you, but in the meantime I thought I'd post in your thread a book I think you would really enjoy, Nazarena, An American Anchoress. She was actually in two Discalced Carmelite Monasteries, first in RI then Italy, until she found her true calling. Also, here's an article on her: A Nun's Story I'll definitely be keeping you in prayer. May God bless you as you continue to discern His Will!


My deepest appreciation for that link! I just ordered what I think was the last copy on Amazon - I hope they order more soon for others!

I probably shouldn't say anything about any of my plans until I have some idea of what I am doing, but I think I will just be like an open book here, and then maybe others can learn from all my mistakes - lol rolleyes.gif Right now I am discerning with The Hermits of Bethlehem and the Terre Haute Carmel. I am going for a visit to Terre Haute as soon as I can get time off from my new job (just finished one week). I spoke with them on the phone and Sister Mary Helen was wonderful. She understood so completely that perhaps the problem was just not the right fit with the community, and not a lack of vocation on my part (my fear). She has already spoken with Mother Elizabeth from WV and I guess I wasn't as obnoxious as all that over there because Mother E said nice things about me! rolleyes.gif

I still have no idea what God wants from me, so I am just taking it one day at a time. I am so graced to have time to pray and say the Office right now, and if I didn't have this strong feeling that He wants me for Himself within the Church, then I think I could be happy just staying here forever, doing what I am doing. Of course, the lady I work for is 95, and that makes this job a bit insecure - lol - but I do feel like I am being carried in His arms right now.

Anyway, please pray me on .... we are so lucky to have such a beautiful Lord. He deserves all of our love always love.gif

Annie
EWIE
[quote name='nunsense' date='Mar 31 2008, 05:41 PM' post='1489796']
My deepest appreciation for that link! I just ordered what I think was the last copy on Amazon - I hope they order more soon for others!

Excellant, excellant book. She is admirable if not imitable. Her calling certainly is a unique one.

This is a site for a beginning Laura of hermits. If you are interested, I will e-mail you her personal addy, privately.

http://beitmery.org/about-us/
nunsense
QUOTE
Excellant, excellant book. She is admirable if not imitable. Her calling certainly is a unique one.

This is a site for a beginning Laura of hermits. If you are interested, I will e-mail you her personal addy, privately.



Why do you say that? "She is admirable if not imitable." Granted, not everyone wants to observe such a penitential life but that doesn't mean that there aren't some who would be inspired to do so! I haven't read the book yet - just the TIME article, but in that brief description of her life I experienced such a feeling of the overwhelming love for Jesus that must be in her to do such a thing! To imagine that this is possible in this day and age excites my soul in a way that I can't explain. love.gif

I would have thought that others would have tried to discourage her from this, so the very fact that she has been allowed to do it - well, it is just fantastic!

If just reading the article made me so happy, I can't wait to read the book. If there were a smiley for ecstasy - I would use it now! caption_yes.gif
SRLAUREL
[[Anyway, now I am back in California while I attempt to research my "hermit options". I have considered finding a small place to live with a simple part-time job to support myself, and then seek out a Bishop who will allow me to consecrate myself to him as a hermit (there is a woman in Oakland CA who is a consecrated hermit). The other thing I have considered is the Hermits of Bethlehem or their neighbors, The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt Carmel (O Carm affiliation). But right now I am in heavy duty prayer mode while I see where the Holy Spirit is leading me. ]]

I am the Sister you referred to in the Diocese of Oakland. Personally I doubt very much the diocese will welcome someone who comes to the diocese looking for someone who will profess/consecrate them. This is so not only because the diocese looks for someone living an eremitical life already before admitting to temporary profession, but also because the unique charism of the diocesan hermit demands an established relation to parish and diocese. In any case my own trip to perpetual profession in Oakland took 23 years, and I lived the life all those years.

One other thing to be clear about. One does not consecrate oneself to the Bishop. One professes one's vows to God in the hands of the diocesan Bishop and the CHURCH CONSECRATES one as a canonical/diocesan hermit. One gives oneself to God, yes, but the call and admission to the consecrated state is only done or mediated by the Church. The actual prayer of consecration prayed by the Bishop is part of the rite of perpetual profession, but not that of temporary profession. Thus, consecration has two senses, 1) the giving of oneself (which can be done in private4 vows but which does not raise one to the consecrated state) and the actual consecration of the indivdual by the Church.

Also, most Bishops are rather cautious about hermits who must earn their living outside the hermitage, and some will not admit these hermits to canon 603 profession at all. (There are any number of individuals waiting until they retire, etc to be admitted to canon 603 profession, not all in the same diocese of course). Meanwhile, I believe the Diocese of San Jose and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles also have diocesan hermits, as may the Diocese of Sacramento, and since housing costs can be lower in those areas you might consider them. Wherever you go, be sue and get yourself established in your parish (you will need your Pastor's recommendation for admission to profession), and be prepared to live the life for at least three to five years before being seriously considered for even temporary vows. You will need a spiritual director as well, of course.

If you wish to contact me, I hope you will feel free. My email address is SRLAUREL@aol.com. Meanwhile, all my best in your discernment process.

SIncerely,
Sister Laurel M O'Neal
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

"My power is made perfect in weakness." 2Cor 12:9

the lords sheep
Wow! Welcome Sister! Please pray for us all and be assured of our prayers!
nunsense
QUOTE(SRLAUREL @ Apr 5 2008, 09:02 PM) *
[[Anyway, now I am back in California while I attempt to research my "hermit options". I have considered finding a small place to live with a simple part-time job to support myself, and then seek out a Bishop who will allow me to consecrate myself to him as a hermit (there is a woman in Oakland CA who is a consecrated hermit). The other thing I have considered is the Hermits of Bethlehem or their neighbors, The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt Carmel (O Carm affiliation). But right now I am in heavy duty prayer mode while I see where the Holy Spirit is leading me. ]]

I am the Sister you referred to in the Diocese of Oakland. Personally I doubt very much the diocese will welcome someone who comes to the diocese looking for someone who will profess/consecrate them. This is so not only because the diocese looks for someone living an eremitical life already before admitting to temporary profession, but also because the unique charism of the diocesan hermit demands an established relation to parish and diocese. In any case my own trip to perpetual profession in Oakland took 23 years, and I lived the life all those years.

One other thing to be clear about. One does not consecrate oneself to the Bishop. One professes one's vows to God in the hands of the diocesan Bishop and the CHURCH CONSECRATES one as a canonical/diocesan hermit. One gives oneself to God, yes, but the call and admission to the consecrated state is only done or mediated by the Church. The actual prayer of consecration prayed by the Bishop is part of the rite of perpetual profession, but not that of temporary profession. Thus, consecration has two senses, 1) the giving of oneself (which can be done in private4 vows but which does not raise one to the consecrated state) and the actual consecration of the indivdual by the Church.

Also, most Bishops are rather cautious about hermits who must earn their living outside the hermitage, and some will not admit these hermits to canon 603 profession at all. (There are any number of individuals waiting until they retire, etc to be admitted to canon 603 profession, not all in the same diocese of course). Meanwhile, I believe the Diocese of San Jose and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles also have diocesan hermits, as may the Diocese of Sacramento, and since housing costs can be lower in those areas you might consider them. Wherever you go, be sue and get yourself established in your parish (you will need your Pastor's recommendation for admission to profession), and be prepared to live the life for at least three to five years before being seriously considered for even temporary vows. You will need a spiritual director as well, of course.

If you wish to contact me, I hope you will feel free. My email address is SRLAUREL@aol.com. Meanwhile, all my best in your discernment process.

SIncerely,
Sister Laurel M O'Neal
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

"My power is made perfect in weakness." 2Cor 12:9



Thank you for all this very valuable information. These things are not well known even by priests, so it is certainly very helpful for anyone considering the hermit life to hear about it from someone who knows.
Janua Coeli
I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.

O Mary, we trust Thee!

“At Carmel and at the Judgment, I am alone with God”. A few thoughts on what the hermit aspect of Discalced Carmelite life means to me.
In Carmel, we live as “hermits in community”, individually and collectively loving God and giving ourselves to Him Who is our All. The eremitical side of our life is fostered by solitude and silence, aided on a practical level by the observance of Teresian enclosure and a determined withdrawal from the world, including the limiting of personal contacts with people outside. Within the monastery itself, when the sisters are not with the community or occupied with house duties, they remain in their cell, praying, studying or working. There is no common workroom, although at times they may need to work together on tasks that require collaboration. This solitude, even though it may not be perfect, is a great help for maintaining the silence and for prayer. Furthermore, sisters may only speak when required to do so by necessity or by reason of their duties, unless they have special permission to talk in response to some practical need.
According to the Rule and Constitutions handed down from St. Teresa, there is a certain number of community acts performed during the day. The community together pray the Divine Office, participate in the celebration of the Eucharist, spend their two hours of silent prayer/meditation (normally in choir), share their meals and hold recreation in common. These common acts do not, however, take anything away from the eremitical aspect of the life or prevent one from preserving an interior solitude and silence. As St. John of the Cross exhorts, one is to “live as though he were alone in the monastery”. (One explicit way of putting this into practice is striving deliberately not to notice what others are doing, or whether they are present at community activities, or what they are eating in the refectory, etc.) In fact, the cenobitical side of Carmel provides structure, stability and support for living a deep interior life, as well as offering opportunities to practise mortification, renunciation of one’s self-will, charity, patience, generosity and all the other virtues. Practising obedience in even little things is also a safeguard for knowing that one is doing the Will of God and keeping a proper balance in, for example, one’s penitential practices.
Being a hermit is not just about being physically alone (though normally that helps!). It is more an interior “living apart”, continually in God’s presence, and demands a detachment from everything that is not Him. At times one can feel an intense loneliness and isolation, even when surrounded by others, and it is only human to occasionally feel the need for affection, support and encouragement. In Carmel, not only are we not able to phone or e-mail a friend to chat to when things are difficult or we would like to express our feelings about something, we do not generally talk about personal stuff with our sisters either. And this can be very hard, especially when one is going through a particularly rough patch. (Some exception, of course, is made during formation, when one usually has more opportunities for sharing things with one’s novice mistress or some other sister. And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need. Nevertheless, in practice it is frequently the case that when one really feels the need to talk, it is either not an appropriate time or the sister you have permission to talk to is otherwise engaged; and so one somehow just has to cope on one’s own, with the grace of God.)
Ordinarily, in due course, there is a gradual stripping away of all external supports and one is left truly “alone with God alone”. It is a valuable time for growing in self-knowledge but often distressing. There is no one to turn to, nowhere to go or to hide, no outlet for expressing one’s inner pain, fear and confusion, only Him. As we read in the psalms: “O where can I go from your spirit, or where can I flee from your face? If I climb the heavens, you are there. If I lie in the grave, you are there.” (Ps 138:7-8) In this dreadful solitude one is thrown back on God as one’s only security and support. And even He may seem to have abandoned or rejected you, so that you are left in darkness, emptiness and desolation, with apparently nothing to hold on to. At times like these it can often be a great consolation to have others sitting/kneeling near you in choir praying. One learns to value the hidden, prayerful support and example of other community members who are persevering in the same life, going through similar struggles and experiencing similar joys and sorrows. One also finds oneself turning even more to the saints and angels for help, especially Our Blessed Lady. She is a beautiful example of a hermit soul as she “treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart” while at the same time being fully committed to the needs of her family and her daily household duties.
In conclusion, may I just say how grateful I am for the tremendous privilege of being given a Carmelite vocation, however imperfectly I actually live it. I know that others may be drawn to an even more solitary life but, for me, Carmel is the place where I can be very deeply a hermit even while being part of a busy sisterly community. And should the path to union with God seem, at times, fraught with difficulties and desolation, deep down, below the level of feelings, there is a real joy and that true and enduring peace promised by Jesus, a peace that the world cannot give.
nunsense
QUOTE(Janua Coeli @ Apr 23 2008, 07:38 AM) *
I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.

O Mary, we trust Thee!

“At Carmel and at the Judgment, I am alone with God”. A few thoughts on what the hermit aspect of Discalced Carmelite life means to me.
In Carmel, we live as “hermits in community”, individually and collectively loving God and giving ourselves to Him Who is our All. The eremitical side of our life is fostered by solitude and silence, aided on a practical level by the observance of Teresian enclosure and a determined withdrawal from the world, including the limiting of personal contacts with people outside. Within the monastery itself, when the sisters are not with the community or occupied with house duties, they remain in their cell, praying, studying or working. There is no common workroom, although at times they may need to work together on tasks that require collaboration. This solitude, even though it may not be perfect, is a great help for maintaining the silence and for prayer. Furthermore, sisters may only speak when required to do so by necessity or by reason of their duties, unless they have special permission to talk in response to some practical need.
According to the Rule and Constitutions handed down from St. Teresa, there is a certain number of community acts performed during the day. The community together pray the Divine Office, participate in the celebration of the Eucharist, spend their two hours of silent prayer/meditation (normally in choir), share their meals and hold recreation in common. These common acts do not, however, take anything away from the eremitical aspect of the life or prevent one from preserving an interior solitude and silence. As St. John of the Cross exhorts, one is to “live as though he were alone in the monastery”. (One explicit way of putting this into practice is striving deliberately not to notice what others are doing, or whether they are present at community activities, or what they are eating in the refectory, etc.) In fact, the cenobitical side of Carmel provides structure, stability and support for living a deep interior life, as well as offering opportunities to practise mortification, renunciation of one’s self-will, charity, patience, generosity and all the other virtues. Practising obedience in even little things is also a safeguard for knowing that one is doing the Will of God and keeping a proper balance in, for example, one’s penitential practices.
Being a hermit is not just about being physically alone (though normally that helps!). It is more an interior “living apart”, continually in God’s presence, and demands a detachment from everything that is not Him. At times one can feel an intense loneliness and isolation, even when surrounded by others, and it is only human to occasionally feel the need for affection, support and encouragement. In Carmel, not only are we not able to phone or e-mail a friend to chat to when things are difficult or we would like to express our feelings about something, we do not generally talk about personal stuff with our sisters either. And this can be very hard, especially when one is going through a particularly rough patch. (Some exception, of course, is made during formation, when one usually has more opportunities for sharing things with one’s novice mistress or some other sister. And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need. Nevertheless, in practice it is frequently the case that when one really feels the need to talk, it is either not an appropriate time or the sister you have permission to talk to is otherwise engaged; and so one somehow just has to cope on one’s own, with the grace of God.)
Ordinarily, in due course, there is a gradual stripping away of all external supports and one is left truly “alone with God alone”. It is a valuable time for growing in self-knowledge but often distressing. There is no one to turn to, nowhere to go or to hide, no outlet for expressing one’s inner pain, fear and confusion, only Him. As we read in the psalms: “O where can I go from your spirit, or where can I flee from your face? If I climb the heavens, you are there. If I lie in the grave, you are there.” (Ps 138:7-8) In this dreadful solitude one is thrown back on God as one’s only security and support. And even He may seem to have abandoned or rejected you, so that you are left in darkness, emptiness and desolation, with apparently nothing to hold on to. At times like these it can often be a great consolation to have others sitting/kneeling near you in choir praying. One learns to value the hidden, prayerful support and example of other community members who are persevering in the same life, going through similar struggles and experiencing similar joys and sorrows. One also finds oneself turning even more to the saints and angels for help, especially Our Blessed Lady. She is a beautiful example of a hermit soul as she “treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart” while at the same time being fully committed to the needs of her family and her daily household duties.
In conclusion, may I just say how grateful I am for the tremendous privilege of being given a Carmelite vocation, however imperfectly I actually live it. I know that others may be drawn to an even more solitary life but, for me, Carmel is the place where I can be very deeply a hermit even while being part of a busy sisterly community. And should the path to union with God seem, at times, fraught with difficulties and desolation, deep down, below the level of feelings, there is a real joy and that true and enduring peace promised by Jesus, a peace that the world cannot give.



What truly beautiful feelings. It is wonderful that you have found what you need in your community and that your vocation is so clear to you. These are graces for which no price can be paid. I'm probably hyper sensitive these days, but your post seemed a little critical of what I had posted previously, as if my seeking more solitude was a failing of some kind, by not being able to find this in Carmel - but in the interests of the well being of this forum, I am going to reply as if nothing personal was meant, and that you are just sharing your own joy at your life in Carmel - ok? I realize too that I might have sounded as if I were criticizing Wolverhampton because I wanted more solitude, and your post might have been a "defense" of what you see as the Carmelite way of life. I certainly did not intend to disparage WV because I love them there very much, but what I post here is intended to help others in their discernment. The fact is that I did find the lack of solitude (time physically alone) to be an impediment to my vocation within that community. The Terre Haute Carmel, for example, does their 2 hours of mental prayer alone instead of in community and they have one hermit day per week. This is the type of thing that I needed but did not have - not everyone needs this or indeed even wants it! One sister at WV said she didn't want a hermit day and would gladly give it up to someone else!

What your post does prove to me that each of us has to find the right "home" in religious life, so that we also feel what you do. But what is the perfect community for one person might not be so for another. We have to remember that we are all individuals and that is why discernment is so important, and why I now think that live-ins are a very good idea. It is true that a person might do a live-in and then decide not to return. The previous Prioress where I was did not like live-ins because she said that women who did them usually didn't return to enter. But how much better for everyone if the incompatibility is discovered prior to the "marriage" so that there is no divorce! As the new Prioress wrote to me... "We are all seeking the will of God." and I say "Amen" to that. And this also points out to me that the Prioress herself is a big factor in the spiritual and emotional health of the monastery, so it is a good thing that Rome prefers to have the Prioress change after a maximum of 2 terms of office (6 years). When one is in office for too long, I think they might begin to see their will as the will of God instead of the other way around! I admit that I could be all wrong about my views on this - since the Benedictines have a superior for her life (I think) but this is a whole different topic anyway!

I too love the part in the Constitutions that you quoted: "Within the monastery itself, when the sisters are not with the community or occupied with house duties, they remain in their cell, praying, studying or working." I did not find this to be true during my brief time in my particular community, since every moment of the day was scheduled and time in the cell was discouraged - but each of us experiences life differently, so it is no wonder that we also experience religious life differently, even if we are within the same community.

You also state that "And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need." That sounds wonderful and I am glad it is true for you, but speaking of my own situation, I was denied permission to speak with another sister during a time of crisis and on several other occasions as well. I was denied access to some books I had requested and I was also denied access to a regular spiritual director, having been told that there "weren't enough priests" available and other various reasons. I believe that this lack of spiritual guidance was a very strong factor in my being unable to persevere in my vocation. After months and months of pleading, a spiritual director was finally located for me just two weeks before I left, but by that time I had pretty much started thinking that this was not the community for me. Having said that, I want to add that there is nothing to say that it wouldn't be the perfect community for someone else, since we are all so different. There was a lot of love in the community and many very holy sisters (and some rather "unholy" ones rolleyes.gif as well - but that can be found in any community! ).

Your post is beautiful though and it describes the almost romantic ideal of religious life - so you must be very grateful to God for allowing you to experience such a thing. Keep us all in your prayers please, especially those of us who haven't found our "homes" yet. God bless you.
praying4carmel
QUOTE(nunsense @ Apr 23 2008, 02:34 PM) *
You also state that "And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need." That sounds wonderful and I am glad it is true for you, but speaking of my own situation, I was denied permission to speak with another sister during a time of crisis and on several other occasions as well. I was denied access to some books I had requested and I was also denied access to a regular spiritual director, having been told that there "weren't enough priests" available and other various reasons. I believe that this lack of spiritual guidance was a very strong factor in my being unable to persevere in my vocation. After months and months of pleading, a spiritual director was finally located for me just two weeks before I left, but by that time I had pretty much started thinking that this was not the community for me.


To be deprived of Books and SD's..How Horrible! It makes me sad.

nunsense
QUOTE(praying4carmel @ Apr 23 2008, 11:11 AM) *
To be deprived of Books and SD's..How Horrible! It makes me sad.


praying4carmel - I was told that the "life itself" was the best teacher and I don't dispute this. If I had been stronger or more surrendered to God's will, then I am sure that I would have found all of the solace and direction that I needed within myself. I was also reminded several times that St Therese used Jesus as her SD - but without a lot of "alone time" there, I found it hard to rely only on His guidance. I do admit that the failing was within me, but that is perhaps why this community was not right for me. For someone else, it might have been the making of a saint. saint.gif I don't want to judge a community for my failings - but would like to stress that proper discernment is most important.
puellapaschalis
Nunsense, I have nothing to add, except a thank you for being so courageously open. Not only here on Phatmass but also in your life - you've been halfway round the world and back - twice - trying to figure out what God wants of you and where He's going to lead you next. It's quite inspiring to see smile.gif
praying4carmel
QUOTE(nunsense @ Apr 23 2008, 03:25 PM) *
praying4carmel - I was told that the "life itself" was the best teacher and I don't dispute this. If I had been stronger or more surrendered to God's will, then I am sure that I would have found all of the solace and direction that I needed within myself. I was also reminded several times that St Therese used Jesus as her SD - but without a lot of "alone time" there, I found it hard to rely only on His guidance. I do admit that the failing was within me, but that is perhaps why this community was not right for me. For someone else, it might have been the making of a saint. saint.gif I don't want to judge a community for my failings - but would like to stress that proper discernment is most important.


I understand what you are saying, and I do agree with what you have said. I just wish there could have more of a balance for you..I did not make that clear..sorry.
nunsense
QUOTE(praying4carmel @ Apr 23 2008, 12:15 PM) *
I understand what you are saying, and I do agree with what you have said. I just wish there could have more of a balance for you..I did not make that clear..sorry.


No, no, no - you have been kindness itself. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't give the impression that there was a failing in the community. Despite my apparent criticisms, I do know that what didn't work for me, might be the very things that make this community a "home" for someone else. So I try to be so careful whenever I say something that might sound like a value judgment. I do love them very much and wouldn't want to do any harm to them by turning away vocations. I pray for vocations for them all the time! pray.gif

I just want to make sure also that others discern carefully through visits and live-ins, so they don't end up feeling as I have done, like a failure. I am slowly getting over this feeling, with Our Lord's help, but it has been particularly hard, especially since Father General basically told me in advance that I wouldn't succeed and he has been proven right. And since my latest attempts at getting a SD have resulted in another important (in terms of authority) priest also telling me that I shouldn't even try for religious life - well, I have had to fight a lot of temptation to despair over any kind of a vocation. But, and here is the important thing - all of this has shown me that nothing matters except my relationship with Our Lord, and in trying to do His will, whatever that may end up being. So, in my weakness, He is strong - what else could I ask for?

Thank you for your kindness. That is one of the reasons I love phatmass so much - everyone has always been so kind to me here. love.gif
nunsense
QUOTE(puellapaschalis @ Apr 23 2008, 12:10 PM) *
Nunsense, I have nothing to add, except a thank you for being so courageously open. Not only here on Phatmass but also in your life - you've been halfway round the world and back - twice - trying to figure out what God wants of you and where He's going to lead you next. It's quite inspiring to see smile.gif


You are so sweet, but of course you must realize that my being "open" has nothing to do with courage at all. I am just "compulsively self-disclosing", which means, of course, that I spend entirely way too much time focusing on my self! rolleyes.gif

The only good thing about my self-centeredness however, is that perhaps in all my ramblings, there might occasionally be some information that might be helpful to someone else who is discerning religious life. It's kind of like manure being used to feed growing plants rolleyes.gif !

And God has been so good to me and so kind - I really would love to please Him. Finding out what He wants however, is another thing entirely. One of the topics that Rosalind Moss is going to cover in her talk on Saturday is "God's Will for You: How to Know It". Boy, oh boy - if I can learn anything at all from just that one topic, the trip to Georgia will have been worth it! Pray me on!

And thank you so much for being so sweet.
gloriagurl
[quote name='nunsense' date='Apr 23 2008, 04:15 PM' post='1507568']
You are so sweet, but of course you must realize that my being "open" has nothing to do with courage at all. I am just "compulsively self-disclosing", which means, of course, that I spend entirely way too much time focusing on my self! rolleyes.gif

Nunsense,

When I first read puelapaschalis' recent post to you in this thread (the one where she compliments your openness), my reaction was SHE TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH. I was going to respond with a resounding (can typing resound??) HERE HERE, then I read your response. Please exucse me in advance as I do not want to disagree or discount your own feelings or sense of your own motivations but I do want to tell you that I find your openness in this thread completely and utterly REFRESHING, it's a balm to my own spirit. As the "youguns" say: YOU ROCK!
EWIE
Nunsense wrote..." I just wanted to make sure that I didn't give the impression that there was a failing in the community."

Even though, Carmel describes itself as a community of hermits, eremetic "alone time" is the last thing one will find in a Carmelite monastery. Every single miunute is scheduled.
I wonder if those who are seeking a more eremetic life style have looked to the Carthusian nuns? The scheduling there is more like supportive pillars rather than a collective togetherness.

Also when looking to a monastery in another country, one must take into consideration the cultural differences. They affect how a rule is interpreted and enfleshed.
jkaands
This post should be called hodgepodge because it is all over the place.

The so-called updated Carmels in the CCA --Carmelite Communities Associated--include several groups whose horaria appear to have addressed this problem. I know that various of y'all don't 'approve' of these groups but they are Carmelites nevertheless who updated after Vat II. What they appear to have done is adopted pick-up breakfasts and lunches so that one can maintain solitude and silence while eating; often have optional early morning prayer before starting formal prayers at 6-7AM, combine one recreation with a talking supper and the other as after lunch quiet time for hobby, talking with sister(s) or a nap; and saying Compline in their cells in private, so that after about 7-8 PM the evening is free in cell. Each community has the Carmelite two hours of silent prayer a day. I think that this sort of schedule would make for much more recollection, silence and solitude and much less regimentation. The Eldridge IA Carmel has many members from other Carmels.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict that one won't persevere in Carmel. Most don't, after all. And I think that advising one to 'give it up' is unwise. Better a community do that, and I think that most communities know better, as they've seen so many leave their community, enter and stay somewhere else. JPII canonized a Poor Clare nun from Palestine who was in and out of a number of monasteries before she finally settled in Palestine, now Israel--I forget her name.

Re SD's, Therese met a visiting SD to their community, who immediately read her heart. She implored Mere Gonzague, her superior, to see him as much as possible during his stay, and the Mere acquiesed, to a point, anyway. Therese, who could give spiritual direction and often did, appeared to benefit greatly from this.

I am frankly surprised at the restrictions you received in your Carmel, as it was obvious that you needed SOMEthing, but won't comment further. I will say that I thought it weird that you didn't have a live-in--I would think that would be de rigeur in discerning an enclosed life.
EWIE
[quote name='jkaands' date='Apr 23 2008, 05:28 PM' post='1507759']
The so-called updated Carmels in the CCA --Carmelite Communities Associated--include several groups whose horaria appear to have addressed this problem. ... What they appear to have done is adopted pick-up breakfasts and lunches so that one can maintain solitude and silence while eating; often have optional early morning prayer before starting formal prayers at 6-7AM, combine one recreation with a talking supper and the other as after lunch quiet time for hobby, talking with sister(s) or a nap; and saying Compline in their cells in private

I am aware of the various changes to which you refer, however they still remain scheduled. They need to be for the sake of order in the community.
But eremetic prayer is nearly paralyzed by a fixed schedule.


BTW.....welcome to the ML.
Saint Therese
Have you ever looked into the Carthusians? Or perhaps the Trappists?
I made a short live in and was definitely discouraged from speaking with the prioress; but that was okay because we could speak with the Novice Mistress practically any time if needed. Perhaps this depends mostly on the community.
Cathoholic Anonymous
QUOTE(nunsense @ Apr 23 2008, 07:25 PM) *
praying4carmel - I was told that the "life itself" was the best teacher and I don't dispute this. If I had been stronger or more surrendered to God's will, then I am sure that I would have found all of the solace and direction that I needed within myself. I was also reminded several times that St Therese used Jesus as her SD - but without a lot of "alone time" there, I found it hard to rely only on His guidance. I do admit that the failing was within me, but that is perhaps why this community was not right for me. For someone else, it might have been the making of a saint. saint.gif I don't want to judge a community for my failings - but would like to stress that proper discernment is most important.


Annie, to be fair to yourself, I think that you were strong and surrendered to God's will - otherwise you could never have gone from America to Singapore, and from Singapore to England, in search of your place in life. That takes a great act of courage. I am in the process of arranging a discernment visit to a community on the Continent, and even though it is cheaper to fly to this place than it is to go on a train to my English hometown I still feel quite nervous. As PP pointed out, crossing the world and immersing herself in a different culture, away from one's support network of friends, is not something a person undertakes lightly.

This isn't to say that the community's reluctance to provide you with a spiritual director or to give you permission to speak with that sister were 'failings' on their part. Just mistakes in judgement. Everybody makes such mistakes from time to time, and that doesn't mean that they've failed in some way. The community did not fail you, and you did not fail them. console.gif I hope that in time the false feelings of guilt and failure will pass. To look at the blessings: you have some practical experience of the religious life now, you have added a monastery of nuns to your group of special friends, and you have a much deeper sense of your calling in life that you wouldn't otherwise have had. For the nuns' part, they have received some insight into the particular needs of overseas postulants. That's not failure. smile.gif
Janua Coeli
QUOTE(nunsense @ Apr 23 2008, 06:34 PM) *
What truly beautiful feelings. It is wonderful that you have found what you need in your community and that your vocation is so clear to you. These are graces for which no price can be paid. I'm probably hyper sensitive these days, but your post seemed a little critical of what I had posted previously, as if my seeking more solitude was a failing of some kind, by not being able to find this in Carmel - but in the interests of the well being of this forum, I am going to reply as if nothing personal was meant, and that you are just sharing your own joy at your life in Carmel - ok? I realize too that I might have sounded as if I were criticizing Wolverhampton because I wanted more solitude, and your post might have been a "defense" of what you see as the Carmelite way of life. I certainly did not intend to disparage WV because I love them there very much, but what I post here is intended to help others in their discernment. The fact is that I did find the lack of solitude (time physically alone) to be an impediment to my vocation within that community. The Terre Haute Carmel, for example, does their 2 hours of mental prayer alone instead of in community and they have one hermit day per week. This is the type of thing that I needed but did not have - not everyone needs this or indeed even wants it! One sister at WV said she didn't want a hermit day and would gladly give it up to someone else!

Your post is beautiful though and it describes the almost romantic ideal of religious life - so you must be very grateful to God for allowing you to experience such a thing. Keep us all in your prayers please, especially those of us who haven't found our "homes" yet. God bless you.


O Mary, we trust Thee!

Dear nunsense,
Truly I did not intend to criticize what you had previously posted on Phatmass. And I was not, in all honesty, saying that your being unable to find enough physical solitude in Carmel was a failing of any sort. (You are not a failure but very courageous, open and obviously much loved.) Indeed, nothing personal was meant by my comments. I was merely trying to bring up a few other issues that are involved in the hermit aspect of Carmelite life and convey another way of looking at it, so that discerners might get a more complete picture. I also hope that I did not come across as being too defensive. I guess I am just disappointed that you did not find all that you were hoping for from your Carmelite experience. Maybe you will in another community? Certainly Carmels (following the same Rule and Constitutions) will differ in how much time sisters are physically alone, and individuals also differ in the amount of absolute solitude they get on best with. I simply wanted to mention that I think it is possible to live as a hermit in a more interior way, without necessarily being on one’s own as much as one would like. And also that there can sometimes be periods when one is very glad to have others around, e.g. when prayer is very difficult or one is experiencing great interior suffering or fears of various kinds.
I will finish there, nunsense, though there is more I might have said in response to your various posts. I think I should probably leave that to others who are more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject. Know that, at any rate, I will definitely keep you and the other discerners in prayer, and pray that you will find your real “home” in religious life, according to the Will of God. May He bless you and fill you with His Spirit of Love and Truth. Please pray for me, too. As you know, Carmel lived in practice is not as easy or romantic as it might sound when one tries to put it into words.

nunsense
QUOTE(Janua Coeli @ Apr 30 2008, 08:43 AM) *
O Mary, we trust Thee!

Dear nunsense,
Truly I did not intend to criticize what you had previously posted on Phatmass. And I was not, in all honesty, saying that your being unable to find enough physical solitude in Carmel was a failing of any sort. (You are not a failure but very courageous, open and obviously much loved.) Indeed, nothing personal was meant by my comments. I was merely trying to bring up a few other issues that are involved in the hermit aspect of Carmelite life and convey another way of looking at it, so that discerners might get a more complete picture. I also hope that I did not come across as being too defensive. I guess I am just disappointed that you did not find all that you were hoping for from your Carmelite experience. Maybe you will in another community? Certainly Carmels (following the same Rule and Constitutions) will differ in how much time sisters are physically alone, and individuals also differ in the amount of absolute solitude they get on best with. I simply wanted to mention that I think it is possible to live as a hermit in a more interior way, without necessarily being on one’s own as much as one would like. And also that there can sometimes be periods when one is very glad to have others around, e.g. when prayer is very difficult or one is experiencing great interior suffering or fears of various kinds.
I will finish there, nunsense, though there is more I might have said in response to your various posts. I think I should probably leave that to others who are more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject. Know that, at any rate, I will definitely keep you and the other discerners in prayer, and pray that you will find your real “home” in religious life, according to the Will of God. May He bless you and fill you with His Spirit of Love and Truth. Please pray for me, too. As you know, Carmel lived in practice is not as easy or romantic as it might sound when one tries to put it into words.



Janua Coeli - no offence taken. All any of us want is to love God and to love each other, and fortunately there are many ways to do this. Do not be disappointed for me that I did not find what I wanted in Carmel because I am not sad about it. Although I have had sad feelings from time to time, in the end, the will of God is all that matters, and it seems that He has other plans for me (see the topic about the Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel's Hope and Rosalind Moss). When I look at what God has done in Rosalind's life, I can see that He is able to use everything that we bring to Him, even our so-called "failures". And of course the completely ironic thing is that God has used my love of solitude to bring me to this point in life where it looks as if I will have to be giving up my solitude for an more active apostolate - go figure! So, I can assure you that I am totally enjoying the solitude I have right now and trying to soak up every last minute of it. Sometimes I wonder why I don't just stay where I am and enjoy the hermit-like life I have been given - but as we know, God's calls are not easy to resist. As Jeremiah said:

You have seduced me Yahweh
and I have let myself be seduced;
you have overpowered me:
you were the stronger.
love.gif

Although I can agree with you about the value of community prayer, especially as a help for those who need it. There is a time for this of course, but I don't think I will ever be someone who prefers praying in community to praying in private. The intimacy of being with Him alone is something my soul craves - but that doesn't mean I don't see the great beauty in worshipping as a family in the Church, or that I don't enjoy praying the Divine Office in community - I do. And the Mass on feasts and solemnities is always so beautiful, especially when there is music and singing, and I must say that at the Easter Vigil I was blown away by the beauty of the bi-lingual Mexican-American Mass I attended - and there were just so many people there! All these group activities are like spending time with the family - wonderful and fulfilling. They are not, however, the same thing as spending time alone with one's Beloved.

Sometimes I wonder if I am just weird (comparatively speaking) because I don't see prayer the same way as most other people do. I recently read a comment from someone about their community, and she described their prayer as very private because although they do it in the choir, they can come and go as they please, and sit where they want (we used to do this during Exposition and it was very lovely) -- BUT, and this is the difference for me -- as beautiful as this is - it is NOT the solitude I am talking about - it is not my definition of "private" prayer. To me, private prayer is when I am TOTALLY alone with God. Contemplation is not "praying while one works" or even with other people around - although technically this is possible, and I will even concede that this might be the "greater" or "better" way (if one must compare). But for me, contemplation is totally losing oneself in God, and this is so intimate, so private that, for me, it can only be done when totally alone. I don't know about anyone else, but in the presence of God, I cry! The ecstasy and joy of being in His embrace is just too personal a thing to want others around - after all, it is the intimacy of the Soul and her Bridegroom!

That being said, St Catherine of Siena was called to an active apostolate after many years as a hermit in her house, so this gives me hope that although I feel like a hermit by nature, if God is calling me to something more active now, I will be able to do it, by His grace; and that He will find some way to provide for me the time alone that I need with Him.

My time at WV Carmel was beautiful. It was a time of foundation and growth and learning to live in community, and I will always love the sisters there - so the time was not wasted. God doesn't waste anything that is offered to Him in love. So, I will still encourage others to enter Carmel, and I always pray for vocations to WV because of my great love for them.

Thank you so much for your own insights, Janua - I am sure that they have been so valuable for others here. God bless you.

Annie
gloriagurl
QUOTE(nunsense @ Apr 30 2008, 01:43 PM) *
after all, it is the intimacy of the Soul and her Bridegroom!


Nunsense, you write so passionately and sensitively about this subject, it seems to me your desire is truly born of love and I hope that Jesus will not leave you completely without this consolation even in the active apostalate. I don't, of course, know His mind or intentions for you, He reveals them to you and I believe to certain others in your life who He chooses, in His wisdom, as "companions" or "guides" for you...but I can't imagine that he would forever keep this from you simply because you follow Him in "active" life.

I'm not saying that anything you have said makes me believe you think that either...just a little thought/encouragement for you that Jesus knows your heart and desires to give you those desires born of love in you.

Imagine how sweet will be the times when you can return to Him in solitude and contemplation, filled with the joy of knowing you have followed Him unselfishly into "action".

May He give you His Peace.
praying4carmel
[quote name='nunsense' date='Apr 30 2008, 02:43 PM' post='1515098']



Although I can agree with you about the value of community prayer, especially as a help for those who need it. All these group activities are like spending time with the family - wonderful and fulfilling. They are not, however, the same thing as spending time alone with one's Beloved.

Sometimes I wonder if I am just weird (comparatively speaking) because I don't see prayer the same way as most other people do.

[quote]

Annie, YOU ARE NOT WEIRD! I full understand what you are saying...

You are correct..it is Not The same..to have community prayer and be alone with your Beloved...I do not see prayer in the same way that others do, either, However, in this discernment process..I am learning rapidly how to have harmony in my own personal prayer life. I understand that I will not always be able to be "alone with the Alone" all the time. However, He fills me and works thru me in a new way. I feel stretched..

For me, and this is just my experience, not a judgement on yours in any way, I found that I was becoming somewhat attached to spending time with Him Alone to the point that it was exclusive to any prayer time that I had. As St. Teresa talks about we can become too attached to raptures and feelings etc. experiences..Though I love spending time with the Lord, I wanted Him to fill me so that I could be there in service to Others. This meant re-learning intercessory prayer, centering prayer, etc. I knew when I moved into the desert so to Speak I was getting somewhere..I trust in my Dark Nights because I know He is with me, even when He does not feel anywhere present.

I do not look for outcomes any more in prayer, rather i trust in Him to have listened to my prayer, and to answer in His way. I am still attacked by evil forces sometimes..in other words completely inappropriate thoughts come at inappropriate times, but now I say: "Lord, Holy spirit, & Michael help" and I don't attach to the thought or fight it I just don't go with it.. and it's then gone..so I know someone is listening to me!

I know that we all believe in your Vocation 100% here on Phatmass. However, I would ask you to take a leap of faith, and prepare to be suprised...your answer may not lie in Carmel....He may have something completely different in mind for you....Where your intimacy will grow even deeper....it may or may not be a hermit order..or another type of order...

I only say this because His answer in my Journey is so suprising to me..it's taking into account the whole of my personality...I am continually suprised and awe struck...I have no words.

It's your journey and your story, and I respect and Love that. I have 100% confidence in you and our Lord to lead you to where you are meant to be.
I just wanted to share my suprises so that you did not feel weird or bad. This is all a part of a process..and it takes time..How wonderful that you still have a Vocation! Remember that many would have bailed out by now. You have shown great courage and Love.

Blessings
+
P4C
nunsense
QUOTE(praying4carmel @ Apr 30 2008, 11:56 AM) *
Annie, YOU ARE NOT WEIRD! I full understand what you are saying...

You are correct..it is Not The same..to have community prayer and be alone with your Beloved...I do not see prayer in the same way that others do, either, However, in this discernment process..I am learning rapidly how to have harmony in my own personal prayer life. I understand that I will not always be able to be "alone with the Alone" all the time. However, He fills me and works thru me in a new way. I feel stretched..

For me, and this is just my experience, not a judgement on yours in any way, I found that I was becoming somewhat attached to spending time with Him Alone to the point that it was exclusive to any prayer time that I had. As St. Teresa talks about we can become too attached to raptures and feelings etc. experiences..Though I love spending time with the Lord, I wanted Him to fill me so that I could be there in service to Others. This meant re-learning intercessory prayer, centering prayer, etc. I knew when I moved into the desert so to Speak I was getting somewhere..I trust in my Dark Nights because I know He is with me, even when He does not feel anywhere present.

I do not look for outcomes any more in prayer, rather i trust in Him to have listened to my prayer, and to answer in His way. I am still attacked by evil forces sometimes..in other words completely inappropriate thoughts come at inappropriate times, but now I say: "Lord, Holy spirit, & Michael help" and I don't attach to the thought or fight it I just don't go with it.. and it's then gone..so I know someone is listening to me!

I know that we all believe in your Vocation 100% here on Phatmass. However, I would ask you to take a leap of faith, and prepare to be suprised...your answer may not lie in Carmel....He may have something completely different in mind for you....Where your intimacy will grow even deeper....it may or may not be a hermit order..or another type of order...

I only say this because His answer in my Journey is so suprising to me..it's taking into account the whole of my personality...I am continually suprised and awe struck...I have no words.

It's your journey and your story, and I respect and Love that. I have 100% confidence in you and our Lord to lead you to where you are meant to be.
I just wanted to share my suprises so that you did not feel weird or bad. This is all a part of a process..and it takes time..How wonderful that you still have a Vocation! Remember that many would have bailed out by now. You have shown great courage and Love.

Blessings
+
P4C



P4C - you are so sweet to want to make me feel better! Thank you for sharing your own experiences of prayer. It sounds very well balanced for you. You are right in that we need a balance of different types of prayer and that is why I found Carmel so hard - because all of the activities are done in common, including mental prayer. If I had been able to spend an hour or two alone during the day, then I think the balance would have been maintained for me, but I found myself trying to find a few minutes here and there during the day when I could return to our cell just to be alone. In fact, the amount of activities we had to do during the day and the way everything was scheduled minute by minute (and many extra chores squeezed in), I actually felt I was living more of an active and pressured life in Carmel than I did in the world! It did not feel balanced at all to me, and even our extraordinary confessor told me that he felt it had an unbalanced work ethic. But I understand that not everyone needs or wants time alone, and that Carmel's routine was probably ok for many others there (although on occasion I did hear some others say they felt it was unbalanced towards work).

My day now consists of caring for an elderly lady 24/7 six days per week (live-in). This includes showering her, changing her, dressing and undressing her, getting her to meals, doctors, hairdressers, grocery shopping etc. It is a very active life in some ways, but the activity is limited to certain times, and the rest of the time I can spend alone in my room to pray the Divine Office, pray for others, go online or read, and contemplate. I attend Mass at 7am every morning and have Sundays off. So, all in all, the life is very quiet and gives me space and time for God - and yet it feels "balanced" in terms of prayer and work. If God weren't calling me to do something for Him, then this life would have much to recommend it.

But now we get on to a topic that is a passion of mine and on which I have very strong opinions! I hope I don't offer offence here to anything you have said but whenever I come across this topic, I need to address it because I feel so strongly about it! The thing that I have heard over and over again, especially in relation to consolations from God is that "It is not about feelings." You didn't use those words, but they have been said to me over and over again by various other people when I talk about God and wanting time to be in His presence alone. The worry seems to be that one will "overindulge" in God in some way. I don't believe this is possible. God gives what God wants to give, and if He gives us consolations, then we would be fools not to accept these. Some people are given more, some less, depending on what He knows is best for each soul, but to try to avoid consolations just seems like refusing gifts that one's Beloved is trying to bestow. St Teresa may have told us not to "chase" visions and ecstasies, but she also said that the graces that God bestowed upon her through these consolations were instrumental in increasing virtues in her, and that she could not have achieved the same level of virtue on her own. It is my own personal opinion that people have misunderstood much of what St Teresa and St John of the Cross have said about consolations and that these misunderstandings have made it difficult for those who receive consolations because they think they shouldn't want them! Even in the Third Spiritual Alphabet, which was greatly loved by St Teresa, we are told that it is much better to seek the consolations of God than to seek the consolations of this world. Since no one can make these consolations manifest except God, why would we think that receiving them would be in some way be harmful? I am not trying to encourage actively "seeking" consolations from God (although even this is better than chasing them in the world), but when one is already being graced with such things, then obviously they are sent by God for a reason and should be accepted as the great gift that they are. This means spending as much time as necessary in private prayer to allow God to do His work in the soul. Prayer time should not be limited by us because we fear to receive God's graces but only by our other responsibilities and duties. If we have the time to do so, then God deserves that we should sit in adoration as long as we can. When the cup is full (usually to overflowing), then we will know it is time to stop, but not because we have set some arbitrary time limit to avoid the dangers of getting too attached to His consolations. See, the way I look at it, God IS His consolations (He is the God OF consolations) and therefore we are getting attached to HIM! I think the bigger worry in this day and age is that people don't spend enough time with God alone in prayer. Maybe when we are all such great saints that we are in ecstasy for 12 hours out of the 24, then we should start worrying about spending too much time in prayer. Until then, I think we can feel safe in spending as much time as possible in contemplation, just letting God do His work on our souls! Our own weak human nature will drive us to leave contemplation eventually anyway. As you pointed out, the evil one stirs up all kinds of thoughts, and even our own weaknesses cause us to feel sleepy (remember the apostles falling asleep in the garden instead of praying with Jesus?) or to suddenly think of a million things we need to do instead of praying right now! I don't think that we need to add "too many consolations" or "too attached to consolations" to the list of things that stop us from praying! And when God has filled our soul, then all we want to do is to give something back to Him - it is natural and inevitable. So even our selfishness in wanting to be alone with God will get turned into an act of self-giving when we find ourselves so full that we just have to do something for Him in return. Since we can't actually GIVE anything to Him, we are left with His request that we love one another as He has loved us -- and this means doing something for others. Hence the consolations of God lead to acts of charity! End of my passionate speech! smile.gif

As for where I am being called by God, the funny thing is that I don't have any worries about that right now. I would be perfectly happy in many ways just to stay in the situation where I am, living a semi-hermit life. But I think the only reason that it all feels ok right now is because I feel He is asking me to do something for Him and I have to wait for that to unfold. Rosalind has emailed me that she will send me the rule and application form next week (she is away again this week) and then we will get together for a chat. I am not even really very excited right now because I feel such a deep down peace in my soul. You can be sure I will be enjoying my solitude as long as it lasts though! rolleyes.gif

God bless.
praying4carmel
Thank you Annie, for your beautiful reply...Much food for thought, well reasoned with heartfelt experience..I was not in the Least offended..You are absolutely correct to say it is not about feelings..in deep contemplative prayer, the consolations of God are so much more than that...and if they are about feelings alone or just ecstasies then I would be concerned..my concern was only to share the fact that I can get too caught up on one side of my life or another either active or contemplative, and that it's been wonderful to find that balance for me. I could sit with the Lord all day, and that's not necessarily wrong..it's that for me I have had to learn to seek a balance. Indpls Carmel had a nice balance for me, Work, silence, cell time, LOH, just a beautiful circle of life. But we all know where that has ended and I am hoping that Cleveland is much the same as they are a very close community to Indpls. in spirit, and friendship. (Did you know that Cleveland shows 2 sisters in habit in their brochure? Granted it was some years ago, however, I thought that was pretty neat. When I go I will ask if the Habit can be worn as a Choice).

My prayers and heart go out to you because I thirst for prayer the way you do and I can understand why you felt that Wolverhampton was a bit busy for you...it's not, once again, a failing of you or that Carmel, it just was not the right fit for for your life.
And that's OK.

I think it's wonderful that you will be talking to Rosalind, and that you feel at peace in your soul. I am in agreement with you that the Lord has something in mind for you, and it will unfold. It's beautiful that you are doing caretaking right now..that is a beautiful labor of Love...

Count on my prayers! Thank you also for your continued correspondence in a public forum..I thnk it helps many who are discerning, to see everyone's opinions and replies.

Blessings and Peace,
+
Nancy
HolyHearts
QUOTE(praying4carmel @ May 1 2008, 11:57 AM) *
Thank you Annie, for your beautiful reply...Much food for thought, well reasoned with heartfelt experience..I was not in the Least offended..You are absolutely correct to say it is not about feelings..in deep contemplative prayer, the consolations of God are so much more than that...and if they are about feelings alone or just ecstasies then I would be concerned..my concern was only to share the fact that I can get too caught up on one side of my life or another either active or contemplative, and that it's been wonderful to find that balance for me. I could sit with the Lord all day, and that's not necessarily wrong..it's that for me I have had to learn to seek a balance. Indpls Carmel had a nice balance for me, Work, silence, cell time, LOH, just a beautiful circle of life. But we all know where that has ended and I am hoping that Cleveland is much the same as they are a very close community to Indpls. in spirit, and friendship. (Did you know that Cleveland shows 2 sisters in habit in their brochure? Granted it was some years ago, however, I thought that was pretty neat. When I go I will ask if the Habit can be worn as a Choice).

My prayers and heart go out to you because I thirst for prayer the way you do and I can understand why you felt that Wolverhampton was a bit busy for you...it's not, once again, a failing of you or that Carmel, it just was not the right fit for for your life.
And that's OK.

I think it's wonderful that you will be talking to Rosalind, and that you feel at peace in your soul. I am in agreement with you that the Lord has something in mind for you, and it will unfold. It's beautiful that you are doing caretaking right now..that is a beautiful labor of Love...

Count on my prayers! Thank you also for your continued correspondence in a public forum..I thnk it helps many who are discerning, to see everyone's opinions and replies.

Blessings and Peace,
+
Nancy


Nancy -
You might want to try the Carmel in Savannah, Georgia. They are a bit more up-dated but with more quiet
time, to be sure. Also, they need vocations badly. The name of the Prioress is Sr, Joann of John of the Cross.
They use a modified habit. The grounds are beautiful!
Cathoholic Anonymous
QUOTE(nunsense @ Apr 30 2008, 09:41 PM) *
P4C - you are so sweet to want to make me feel better! Thank you for sharing your own experiences of prayer. It sounds very well balanced for you. You are right in that we need a balance of different types of prayer and that is why I found Carmel so hard - because all of the activities are done in common, including mental prayer. If I had been able to spend an hour or two alone during the day, then I think the balance would have been maintained for me, but I found myself trying to find a few minutes here and there during the day when I could return to our cell just to be alone.


In Quidenham the sisters spend the two hours of mental prayer alone (although you can stay in your choir stall if you wish). I usually prayed in the choir in the morning and went to my cell for the evening. The nuns are in their cells for forty-five minutes of solitary spiritual reading each day, and they have an hour of free time that they must spend alone, to counterbalance the hour of communal recreation in the evening. This is an especially silent time in the monastery. The older sisters nap. The younger ones pray or read or go for walks in the grounds. I didn't realise that the schedule differed so much from Carmel to Carmel.
praying4carmel
QUOTE(Cathoholic Anonymous @ May 1 2008, 12:22 PM) *
I didn't realise that the schedule differed so much from Carmel to Carmel.


Seems so CA..I did not realize this either until I started checking things out. I think it's good for people to know.
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