For those interested. The Indianapolis Carmel is closing. Such a shame that the order will be losing that gorgeous Carmelite building.

Suppression doesn't happen overnight. Where will the nuns be going? They may have to have a caretaker for the building until it sells.

There are also plenty of new orders who can use the building.

Sorry to hear it, but I'm not surprised. (Please, folks, don't jump down my throat for saying that)!

BTW, EWIE--where'd you find your avatar? I'd been looking all over for that particular pic.

Blessings,
Gemma

Carmelite sisters moving to Oldenburg

Mary Milz/Eyewitness News

Marion County - The Carmelites of Indianapolis have called Indianapolis home for 75 years. They've lived in a monastery on Cold Spring Road doing God's work through prayer and contemplation.

The nine Catholic sisters, whose median age is in the mid-70s, are moving. This summer they'll relocate to a building on the Franciscan sisters' property in Oldenburg, Indiana.

Prioress Sister Jean Alice McGoff said of the decision, "It takes a lot to run a place like this. Even though we've been able to live a life of prayer, we felt it was better to make the transition when we could do it for ourselves, we have the energy and we're well."

Also key is the Archdiocese of Indianapolis' offer to buy their property for a seminary. The seminary will house men preparing for the priesthood at nearby Marian College.

Sister Jean Alice said,"The fact this building would continue to be a house of worship was important to us. And we just felt it was a gift of God."

She and the other sisters are no strangers to change. Until the early 60s, they were cloistered, living behind the thick stone walls of the monastery, which they themselves maintained.

"We were always faithful to our life of prayer, but we did a lot of work to save money," Sister Jean Alice said. "I learned to push a wheelbarrow, dig up and cut down trees, transplant trees. I learned to use all kinds of tools - hammers and saws."

The sisters greeted visitors through a window with a thick screen, venturing out only for emergencies. That began to change in the mid-60s along with changes in the Catholic church. The Carmelites gradually opened up, having face-to-face interactions with visitors. They also began watching TV and reading the newspaper.

While the sisters still lead simple, mostly private lives, they're well read and, well connected thru their website, praythenews.org.

The sisters launched it as a way to introduce women to their way of life.

"Sometimes when you set out to do a goal, something else develops and that's what happened," Sister Jean Alice said.

While the website didn't result in any new vocations, it did draw worldwide attention, which was a bit overwhelming for the publicity-shy sisters.

Sister Jean Alice laughed, recalling one of the media requests: "and now we were going to be on the Today Show and I just said, 'Sisters, please don't do this!'"

As they do every Sunday, the sisters invited friends and visitors to join them for Easter Mass, but this time there were special prayers for the sisters. Visiting priest Father Tom Widner noted their leaving and influence on the community.

"They're just warm and affectionate and very considerate of people and loving. It's a loss for the local church and Indianapolis," he said.

Mary Ann Grogan, who's known the sisters for years, talked about the monastery being "a quiet space...and we like to think we take some of their goodness into our busy world."

Carolyn Fay agreed. "On a personal note, these sisters are my sisters and I'll miss them very much. They've introduced me to so many ways of looking at spirituality and finding God in each other."

Asked what message she wanted to share, Sister Jean Alice said, "There's a reverence in me and I think all the sisters, for every human being no matter who they are, we are all God-bearers."

She said while the sisters would take down their web site after moving, they would continue to do God's work, just from a different house of prayer. {End of report}

Good news that the building will remain in use as a seminary.

This is the second CCA Carmel this year that has had to leave their monastery and relocate to another place because they had become too old to take care of the property. Really it feels like it is not a closing, since the community is staying together. Elysburg PA Carmel also moved to Danville PA as a group. When Brooklyn Carmel closed in the 1990's, their nuns dispersed to different Carmels which feels like a really difficult and different way of closing a monastery.

[quote name='Gemma' date='Apr 12 2008, 01:36 PM' post='1498036'

BTW, EWIE--where'd you find your avatar? I'd been looking all over for that particular pic.

I was first intoduced to it in high school, then when I entered my religious community, it was again given to me by someone else. Then again and again. Seems to have popped up at all the junctures of my life.

I have a picture in my computer and can send it to you if you want.

Does anyone know if the Carmel will continue to accept applicants?

I, for one, thought that the building looked very impractical and forbidding, and was probably always hard for the typical Carmelite sized community to maintain. I would also be interested in what is happening to the traditional Carmels. Many of these don't have websites and many seem small. What is their average age? Have any of these folded? A fast review of the Guide reveals about 12-15 Carmels, of all persuasions, with 8 nuns and fewer, some down to 4 nuns. Some Carmels don't list their numbers. The Indy Carmel has 10.

Also: a correction and an address for the Guide to Religious Ministries:

It's $10.00, still a bargain, from:

Catholic News Publishing Co
210 North Avenue
New Rochelle NY
10801

914-632-1220

email: info@religiousministries.com

website: www.ReligiousMinistries.com, with a not-very-good search engine(the last time I checked), which is why I recommend the book.

A Carmelite friar I knew spoke highly of these sisters, and he was a prayerful, very holy man. Let's be charitable and pray for their new direction.

BTW I'd really like to see this building now it's been mentioned, are there photos available? (I did google, no luck). Are they the sisters who have that big old castle, or is that another Carmel?

Funny, today I visited the Philadelphia Museum that contains a French Cloister inside. While beautiful, it really affirmed to me how external appearances aren't everything, because it didn't *feel* holy because Our Lord wasn't There. (well, I know He is Everywhere, I hope you know what I mean).

Their community was the subject of the book "Cloister and Community."

The Indy library might have pix.

praying4carmel has a pic of it for her avatar.

Blessings,
Gemma

a couple pages on them from the Carmel in the US book





Interesting, it says at the end, notable persons have visited this Carmel like Mother Mary Elias and Bishop Fulton J. Sheen. That statue of St. Teresa looks beautiful.

I can't imagine trying to heat that interior room where the statue of (I presume) Mother Teresa is! It also looks dark and gloomy.

Here's the link to the Oldenburg Franciscans. They look like they have quite a lot of masonry, too, plenty to spare!

http://oldenburgfranciscans.org/

I waited to share this news until it got out formally. They told me 2 months ago when I visited them and asked me not to spill the beans until after they had notified the other Carmels.

The Building will be used as it was purchased by the Archdiocese for the use of their seminarians. It was too much for them to handle. They are down to 9 sisters the youngerst is 51 and then an age gap to 75+. They are moving into the Former Postulancy house of the Oldenburg Franciscans in May.

This is heart wrenching for them.. and for me as well...I will share more Tommorrow when I have time..

P4C

Thanks for posting photos! Any photos of the outside?

Oldenburg - what an amazing building!

Sorry to hear the sisters had to close their monastery due to increasing age,but at least the Church will be able to use it,and the sisters will be all together. What are CCA Carmels,Are those the Calced Carmelites?
In San Antonio we have the Discaled Carmelite Nuns,who live near Culebra. They used to have a convent on kentucky Street down near the National Shrine of the Little Flower which was built in the 1920s,I think consrtuction started in 1927 or 28. They moved because in their case, they would have druggies stopping by trying to borrow money or steal from the sisters.Don't know how many nuns they have,but they are getting vocations as far as I know.

Please pray for my friends as they move to Oldenburg..

I was fortunate to be able to visit in February. I have known these sisters since 1985, when I first went to visit them and speak to them about my Vocation. Unfortunately at that time even though I had a vocation, I was not ready to embark upon it. The Lord had alot of work to do in me yet. Last year when He Called again and the Pieces were finally in place in the time of His Choosing, Indpls was the first place I contacted. I was very grateful that the sisters Invited me for a visit, and it was wonderful to see them. They let me participate fully in their Horarium, Meals, Prayer, Work, and Silence. There is Love and Laughter, as well as Peace and Deep, Deep, prayer.

They were midwives for me; that 's the best way that I can explain it. Sr. Helen carefully planted the seed of my Vocation, watered it and waited in faith trusting in our Lord and His timing.

Now here I am in active discernment, and amazed of the changes that the Lord has brought about. I can honestly say that I love these women dearly, their prayers have been so good for me and for others. They have done a wonderful work. I Pray for them each day and night.

I am grateful that the building was not sold to some celebrity Tony Robbins type person who likes castles. It's a beautiful building, It's Not dark and forbidding, There are alot of picture windows that look out to a traditional cloister, and garden. The grounds are lovely as well with hermitage and gardens and Pond. But it's alot of work to keep up, flat roofs, boilers etc.

I really am at a loss for words..my heart aches. The Happy Part is that their praying will not stop.

JK, I think Vocations are done.

".....I am grateful that the building was not sold to some celebrity Tony Robbins type person who likes castles. "

Thank heavens for that.

"........It's a beautiful building, It's Not dark and forbidding, There are alot of picture windows that look out to a traditional cloister, and garden. The grounds are lovely as well with hermitage and gardens and Pond.


They do not wear the traditional Teresian habit though. Is that right?

".......But it's alot of work to keep up, flat roofs, boilers etc."

So true, even more remarkable is that the nuns built it. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall seeing photos of the nuns themselves doing a lot of the building. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sorry praying4carmel, I know how much they mean to you. I know you're going to disagree with me here.

But they seem to be in the same spot as what happened to Reno and Cleveland: a self-destructive immersion in the false spirit of Vatican Two, none of which was asked for by the Council or the Magisterium.

They took down their grilles, threw off their already-modified habit and then published (a practice now strongly condemned) an inclusive language breviary. I also read Cloister and Community.

They just won't get any (especially young) vocations unless they resume the Teresian habit and enclosure.

Just look at Phatmass for proof: many of the young women have entered SSME, SSEW, PCPA or other similar communities in that they're not traditionalist, but traditional in their authentic religious life.

I don't believe St. Teresa of Avila if she were alive today and saw the Indianapolis sisters would imagine them to be Discalced Carmelite Nuns.

Unfortunately, they've already spent so much money and time trying to figure out how they can save their community when there is a simple answer, and now they're forced to sell their beloved monastery... something which could have been avoided if they had stayed the course. As a wise Jesuit formation director told me, "Virtue is in the median." And so it is.

Well I really screwed that one up so you will have to read all of Brendan's post to see my answers..

Financially, They're just fine. They have been Wise Stewards of their resources. However, a Stone Monastery is just not practical in these days of rising energy costs etc. The Archdiocese will make good use of the building.
Please know that Until a few years ago they had many more Sisters, who have now gone to their rest.

Financially - I meant how they got that researching done, etc. which led to Pray the News.

The sisters who are now dead, I am sure entered long before the changes.

I know that Pray the News largely came out of their effort to really intercede for the world. They are very knowlegeable on what's going on. Dinner conversations were lively!

Many of the sisters who entered came after Renewal, 2 transferred form other orders.

So what do you say about Carmels like Valparaiso, Buffalo, Alexandria, Ada Parnell, Georgetown, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. (mostly those in the St. Joseph Association) that are flourishing? Just a coincidence that they have the enclosure, full habit, Latin in the Mass and Office with chant, traditional Carmelite customs, etc.?

Their building is modeled on Avila, which, if I recall correctly, was the intention of their benefactors at the time it was designed. That's why the outside resembles a castle/fortress. Inside - bright, spacious, beautiful grounds - and a lot or work. (Doing a delivery, we were fortunate enough to get into the Chapter Room one time. I was thrilled to my toes, having grown up near a walled Carmel that was the neighborhood mystery!
For those who wonder what their thinking was after Vatican II, there was a wonderful article by Sr. Jean Alice in "Origins" about 1984. Just search the archives. It's there. The desire was to be very much at the heart of the church in Indianapolis, and to pray for it and its priests with an awarenesss of real situations. Decisions were made with a lot of reflection and a lot of sincerity although the results, granted, were less than fully successful. It would be easy to think that Oldenburg was and is in similar
circumstances.
No judgments on anyone, please. There has been too much suffering in those communities already.

One of the most touching moments of prayer I've had was when visiting a cloistered community of nuns. One of the petitions at Mass made mention of war, drugs, and poverty. It was as if... I thought "Hey, they really are in touch with the outside world." And oh how we need their prayers.

I think they are wonderful too, and I am grateful that they are there. I am grateful to our Lord for ANY religious
Order we have in the Church right now.

Thanks Shortnun! Yes, we really do need their prayers today.

This is very, very sad news.

I am praying for them, as well as all of the Carmelite Monasteries in this country. I have heard repeatedly that the Kensington Carmel is in serious trouble, so I think they really need some help in the way of prayers.

I believe someone on this thread mentioned the Reno Carmel not doing well...I just looked at their website and they look fine to me. They have some new members, and it looks like they also have a postulant. I think their artwork is gorgeous, and I have always loved Sr. Joan Williams, OCD book "Growing Free, A Carmelite Remembers" - good book for anybody interested in Carmel.

Whatever the case, full or not, each and every religious order needs our prayers and support! I'm sure it is very hard for the Carmelites in Indianapolis to transfer...I have a friend at Stanbrook Abbey (UK), and they were forced to make the same decision (full habit and all!) - so I hope we remember all the communities (especially those entrusted with large and beautiful buildings) are dependent upon our prayers, as we are on their prayers...

Perpetualove

Do correct me if I'm wrong: Stanbrook Abbey left their location because they are building another monastery, and not due to troubles...

http://www.stanbrookabbeyfriends.org/

Stanbrook Abbey is moving because the sad reality is that they could no longer afford to keep up the Abbey - I was there when the council and community made this decision.

The Abbey is quite large and the expense - not to mention the work involved - eventually led the community to re-evaluate their priorities and their lives as Benedictines (meaning - they realized the importance of the building and the significance of their particular history, so they needed to reflect on how they wanted to use their limited resources). The lack of vocations, not to mention the nuns that have died, transferred or left, also contributed - obviously. (I guess this goes without saying that if they had enough vocations, they would have the ability to keep up the Abbey as it had been in the past.)

They did make the promise at that time that they would try to "hold out" as long as possible in an attempt to find an appropriate buyer; they did not want to see their beloved and sacred Monastery sold as a "spa" or for some other kind of use. I have heard they did indeed sell it, but I don't know more than that. I'm sure someone else on this board will know.

Again, I must say...

Personally, I do not think it is fair to blame a community's painful decision to leave a beloved home should be blamed on their lack of habits or "perceived faithfulness" to their Rule or original charism. I find it really offensive that someone would make that connection; as if the nuns are being punished for their dress. The Kensington Carmel is considered to be one of the most traditional and faithful Carmels in the US and they are down to five/six nuns (I have heard the youngest is somewhere in her fifties). Some of the Poor Clare monasteries (PCC'S) were down to three, four sisters and eventually received help from the Federation and got transfer sisters. The faithful Benedictine nuns at Petersham are experiencing a serious dearth in vocations and their future is tenuous. So are the "traditional AND the moderate" IHM's in California - both of them have recently announced they would no longer be accepting vocations. What is the reason for these communities in full habit and traditional lifestyle not receiving vocations? What is God punishing them for?

There is a business side to religious life that few people stop to consider. I know when the Benedictines at Stanbrook were considering their options, one was to embark on a major fundraising drive like many other Communities. They decided as a community it was against the reason for their life and witness. I personally see this in California because this state demands strict rules for earthquake reinforcements; watching various communities go through capital campaigns for building upkeep and the like leaves one wondering. Many of the local communities are in serious debt due to their decision to keep up large/grand buildings and bring them to code. In visiting the various orders, habited as well as not, trying to see the vow of poverty in these brand new structures with air conditioning, automatic lights, gorgeous carpeting, professional food staff, etc. is very difficult. Many of our nuns live better than the average family in Los Angeles.

I have no doubt that the Carmelites of Indianapolis went through their options as well; and I can only imagine this was discussed, and obviously they came to the same conclusion as the Benedictines did. The Benedictines wrote a beautiful letter speaking of the integrity of their life vs. the building that held so much history that was private. They realized their decision would be controversial and sad for many, including themselves, but they were faithful to their witness.

By this time, it is pretty obvious I have visited more than my fair share of communities. I met the former Prioress of the Carmel of Indianapolis and while I didn't have the opportunity to know her as Praying4Carmel did, I respected and admired her. She was gracious, lovely, completely present and gentle. I would even go so far as to say I considered her (and still do) a very holy woman. The habit does not make the nun, unfortunately, because if that were the case, how easy holiness would be! Just dress the part. However, I don't doubt that for many, it helps, and that is their decision.

And finally, like Laudem, I am continually shocked by some of the blogs of fully habited nuns; with little to no sense of monastic decorum. Putting one of those blogs next to Praying The News says it all. One has thoughtful, deep reflections on current affairs and intelligent prayer resources, and the other is, at best, geared to very young women with silly antics. So, again, the habit does not guarantee holiness or faithfulness.

After the whole thread that was closed down after Praying4Carmel spoke about her discernment, I am in shock there continues to be insensitivity regarding this issue. This makes me so sad. If someone really harbors the belief that God punishes or withholds vocations based upon dress and tradition, perhaps a more charitable response would be: I will be praying for all concerned.

There is room for all of us in this great, big Church, and like I said before, if a community is really out of line or doing something wrong/abusive, the Vicar of Religious along with the Bishop and/or Cardinal will most certainly deal with it.

I think that a number of Carmels are potentially in trouble in all of the associations, and probably including the non-affiliated.

If one takes the presence of 10 nuns or fewer as a sign of potential instability, and going by stats in th 2007 Guide to Religious Ministries (2008 is in the mail), for the St. Joseph's Association, the Carmels of Philadelphia, Morristown and Santa Fe all have 10 or fewer. Santa Fe has no website and I know is very conservative. Springfield MO in this assn is down to 4 nuns.

In the St. Teresa's association, 10 or fewer includes Salt Lake and Carmel, CA, the latter, like Santa Fe, has no website and is very conservative.

In Mary Queen of Carmel Assn, Sioux City in full habit has 10 or fewer.

Mobile, AL, in full habit, has 4 nuns.

Among the conservative Carmels which are growing, a number are in completely new monasteries built for them: Alexander SD, Denmark WI, Valparaiso NE. This may indicate that they are attracting applicants to their new monasteries in new suburban or rural locations. Hard to know.

And Carmels with modified habits which are growing include San Diego (14 professed), Piedmont OK and Baltimore, which has 15 professed.

There are a number of Carmels who do not appear to be affiliated, and have no website that I can find easily, such as Erie PA and Kensington CA. Hard to know their status.

I believe that the Indy Carmel decided to move and close some time ago. I noticed that their rather abstract, beautiful and difficult to navigate website had few personal touches about their lives--no "News" or "What's New", no newsletters or updates. And certainly no blog or videos of their beautiful, rather archaic-looking monastery.

Some of the info you stated is incorrect

Alexanderia, SD did not have a monastery built for them but rather converted a former retirement home to their convent. They need to build a real monastery but they lack the funds to do so. Denmark is a foundation from Ada Carmelites and thus needed to build a new monastery because they never had one previously. Question about the Guide to Religious ministries are they counting those in formation?? I know IRL usually does not count those in formation but those who are professed.

Also, the Sioux City carmel is NOT in full habit.

Thanks for the corrections. i thought SC was in full habit from a pic I saw some years ago--I couldn't find a recent one.

The Guide includes those in formation if these numbers are submitted, but the monasteries may not submit them, thinking, correctly, that a bird is in hand only when finally professed. I personally think that orders should list those in formation, and list them as 'in formation'--this indicated activity and interest, even if they leave later. But of course it's the preference of each individual house. Not all submit numbers, either, or have websites. This is why I went with a total, rather than looking for formation numbers, unless these were included. Even a total doesn't tell the whole story. Ten young nuns will start a new house. Indy had 9 or 10 including one in her 50's, and has decided to close. The OP's in AL are starting up again with many fewer than 10. Covington LA (modified habit) was under 10, I think, when it had a bunch of vocations.

Thank you, Perpetualove for both correcting my mistake and for articulating yourself so well.

PerpetualLove,

I am sorry but not surprised that the trad IHM's are closing. After Cardinal McIntyre tore the community apart, the trads appeared to have been on a steady decline. What will happen to that gorgeous building in that beautiful setting? It must be worth millions in LA. But who is the 'moderate' group you mentioned? The IHM Community is ecumenical and lay and is not a community as such. There is also the group in Monroe, MI.

And thank you for your thoughtful and informed post.

PerpetualLove,
Thank you for your thoughtful post, I too consider the Prioress of Indpls to be a very holy woman and I love her very much.

God Bless,
Nancy

I apologize for any confusion or lack of charity I may have caused. Look at my thread in Open Mic to understand why I'm saying this. God love you!

One of the Carmels' problems was their insistence on isolation for so long. I tried helping some of them even before Cloister Outreach was founded, and one said "we want to remain unknown and hidden." I appealed to the Lord to spur the pope on to do something, and JPII said, "Make yourselves known as a means of attracting vocations!" THEN they started working with me!

There used to be a lot more Carmelite monasteries, but they've been steadily closing since VatII. The Discalced Carmelites are the most numerous charism in the U.S., and that's actually working against them now. They're spread too thin, and the vocations haven't been coming, so it's inevitable that there will be consolidations and/or closures.

Due to birth control and abortion, the number of Catholics has steadily declined. Hedonism started taking root, and with the "downgrade" of marriage these days, families are disintegrating. The active sisters had the schools, and now they're gone. Catholic colleges aren't Catholic anymore.

Our church as taken a huge hit, has it not? How many of us are in damage control and rebuild mode?

For all the talk of the habit, this is what I have to say about it: the habit is a sacramental. A sacramental is a religious article used for the purposes of obtaining graces for the user. It makes no sense that a religious whose purpose is the salvation of the world would not want to use any sacramental made available to them by the Church.

The use of the habit sacramental brings with it graces to the wearer--and the seer. When properly worn, the habit transforms the religious into another Jesus or Mary. The observer of the habit receives the graces of edification, and of having their thoughts lifted to God. All prayers go through Mary, and all graces come from her. St. Therese said everything is a grace. St. Thomas Aquinas says that our desire for the sacraments arises from the preliminary graces given which will bring us to that sacrament. "No man comes to the father except through Me," said Jesus. We go to Jesus through Mary.

The people driven away by the sight of a habit may have spiritual issues involving the Evil One, or the Evil One may be tempting them to despair, and filling their heads with nonsense.

The Carmelites have a scapular that was given them by Our Lady herself. I don't understand why they would not want the external witness of the abundantly blessed Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel.

Blessings,
Gemma

When JPII wrote his encyclical or whatever he wrote recommending a simple, becoming, identifiable dress compatible with poverty---ie a habit-- did he mention that it was a sacramental? I don't recall that he used this terminology.

The vast majority of Carmels in the US, regardless of their association or lack thereof, are in some sort of habit that would fit JPII's description. The mode of dress may vary within the particular monastery. JPII did not mention or recommend going back to the original habit of any order. The decline in numbers in Carmel cuts right across the board, the smallest being fully habited, I believe (Mobile-4, Springfield-4, Kensington-unknown, Traverse City-7)

Most orders that don't wear a habit at all wear a pin or insignia of some sort which is probably blessed on profession. jwould this not make it a sacramental?

One thing that I have observed is the positive associations of vocations and habited orders which occupy fine new monasteries in the country, such as Tyringham MA (Visitation), Valparaiso NE (OCD), Denmark WI(OCD) and the PCCs in Barhamsville VA, a beautiful Italianate monastery built on a mountain leveled for the purpose. The PCPA's in Phoenix planned new monastery is also in this mold.

[quote name='jkaands' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:06 PM' post='1502701']
Most orders that don't wear a habit at all wear a pin or insignia of some sort which is probably blessed on profession. jwould this not make it a sacramental?

If they say a prayer before putting it on. I say a simple, one-line prayer when I don my Passion Sign.

Nuns, monks, sisters, and brothers recite a whole litany of prayers while putting on the habit. They are asking specifically for graces to be given to bring them closer to Christ as they wear it. That's a sacramental.

Even Mary Vincent Dally in her book, "Married to a Catholic Priest" says that a priest's wife is a sacramental to her husband's parish.

One thing that I have observed is the positive associations of vocations and habited orders which occupy fine new monasteries in the country, such as Tyringham MA (Visitation), Valparaiso NE (OCD), Denmark WI(OCD) and the PCCs in Barhamsville VA, a beautiful Italianate monastery built on a mountain leveled for the purpose. The PCPA's in Phoenix planned new monastery is also in this mold

That's cause they have ROOM for the vocations! Some of those monasteries may have put entrances on hold due to lack of space. You have brought up a good point, though.

Blessings,
Gemma

I have written to the Carmelites of Kensington, CA in the past and now for the past few months. The Prioress, Sr. Mary of the Angels had last written me that they have a few sick sisters and one in rehab that is doing well and expected to return home soon. I am discerning with them and will let the forum know more on them when I find out more. Mother Prioress said she'd write more later as it was a quick night time note to me.

They have no website and got email only a few years ago. I email them now for ease and the quickness! But Mother prefers email too as it is easier for her it seems.

Here's an article - http://www.gilmoretechservices.com/Archive...05.html#Inside1 - on them that I may have posted in the past, can't remember, and it's very informative and is one of the things that drew me to them besides the pages on them in that "Carmel in the USA 1790 to 1990" which Margaret Clare scanned into her photo album at http://picasaweb.google.com/ocdnuns/Carmel...ingKensingtonCA and also what Mother Prioress has written me.

To all who have written about the closing or struggling Carmels:
I am a Lay Carmelite (OCarm). TI totally agree with PerpetualLove about the Indy Carmel. I have been on their mail and email list for years. I was so very, very sad to hear about their moving and, especially, about the closing of their web site.

I do not think the habit is of any real significance today. Most older orders used the habits of the common poor people of the time they were founded. If an order chooses to wear habits or not I think that is their decision. It is wrong to judge an order or monastery on its perceived 'faithfulness' on whether they wear a habit or not.

My particular branch of the carmelite family does not encourage but "allows" the use of the Indy Carmel's Companion to the Breviary for the LOH said in private. In community meetings we use the 'official' version. This has been a struggle for me as I am addicted to pleasing people, especially those in authority. I asked and asked whether it was wrong for me to use the Companion or if it fulfilled my obligation. The constant reply was that it was my personal decision that I must make. Carmel in it's authentic expression forces one to accept growth and responsibility!

Though there are a few places in the Companion that I would change (a Benedictine Monk - an abbot- told me to just pencil in the change here and there) I think it is a wonderful version of the Office. MANY religious communities use the Companion or versions of it for their prayer.

The Indy Carmelites are mature women of deep faith. They definitely are NOT shallow. They have challenged me to look beyond the 'pious' platitudes and expressions to the meat of the Gospel and what God is really requiring of me...a rather scarry thing at times.

One of the prioresses (can't remember her name) of the Indy carmel was the director of spiritual development for the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. Surely, if those nuns were off the track, or not carmelite enough, or wierd, than the Archbishop would certainly not have had their Prioress in such a position of responsibility.

I think religious life, like the rest of the church, is in a position of transition. The church in America has gone through a lot. We are in the midst of a time of purification. That the purification should begin with religious orders is no surprise. Perhaps they are suffering decline as a 'sacrifice' for the rest of us.

I was drawn to carmel by its charism and the nuns I knew (who were not habited) who were such godly women. Oh, and also by St. Therese......whom I don't think would have made the habit such an issue. But I am just guessing.

Let us pray for all those in religious life. It is a time of trial for them.

[quote name='franktocarm' date='May 8 2008, 05:42 PM' post='1522576']
To all who have written about the closing or struggling Carmels:
I am a Lay Carmelite (OCarm).

".............Frank. if you were OCDS instead of OCarm, your guidance would have been more along the
Orders guidlines."

I do not think the habit is of any real significance today.

"..........For the discalced Carmelite, the Scapular itself is the habit and is regarded as a sacramental as it is in the smaller version, in the rest of the Church......"

Surely, if those nuns were off the track, or not carmelite enough, or wierd, than the Archbishop would certainly not have had their Prioress in such a position of responsibility.

"..........Discalced Carmels are autonamous....".

Gemma--


While I agree that a full habit is in nearly all cases better than a pin, I think a pin has in principle the same potential of being a sacramental as an entire habit, if a priest blesses it for that intention, no? Even if one does not say a pray when putting it on? A rosary, once blessed, is a sacramental, holy water is a sacramental, according to the Fisheaters page a wedding ring (presumably of a Catholic) is a sacramental. Etc.

The only problem about not wearing a habit, is that no one knows your a sister/ nun.
When I 1st started to discern, my mom told me to talk to a sister in our church, I waited and waited to see a sister at our parish, I finally had to ask mom about this sister, she had to point her out to me. I had no idea the lady I sat near for years was a sister!

We have deaf persons come to out parish in the summer, there is a sister who also comes and interprets, it was only after the priest announced her name did I know she was a sister. And when I went up to the sister, she said rather proudly, "See I have my pin", it was so small I could hardly see it on her lapel.

I have also been to a convent where some of the ladies don't wear the habit, some wear parts of the habits, some just the Vail and few the whole thing. When I fist went to this convent, I was greeted by someone in lay clothing, and she was a nun, but I didn't know that!

Anyway, I believe in the habit.

I believe in the habit too, DS. We are in total agreement I was only quibbling a little with Gemma about whether something must have prayers when you put it on, for it to be a sacramental.

The Indy carmel was sold to the Archdiocese of Indianapolis as a residence for seminarians attending
the Marist seminary down the road. The sisters will be moving to the gounds of the Franciscan Sisters of Oldenburg who have graciously offered them a building for their new residence/monastery.

THe indy carmel is suffering the same fate of many cloistered communities...both 'conservative' and 'liberal' I have been in contact with the indy nuns for years and years. They are holy, dedicated women who have an intense prayer life. They look upon their move as another part of their journey which is secure in the arms of a loving God.

Anyone familiar with church history knows that many convents and monasteries have come and gone. It is like they were raised up for a specific purpose and when that was fulfilled they were closed. If you go to the OCD generalte web site they have (for years) listed various monasteries around the world that have been 'suppressed" - which is their term for closed and has nothing at all to do with faithfulness of the occupants.

I have used the indy carmel inclusive language breviary for years and love it (I am a man) and this breviary may be why some people have taken it upon themselves to judge these good women. Leave the judging to God and those in authority over the nuns (who, by the way, have always given them their fullest support.)

Blessings.

Yes, EWIE, I am familiar with what you wrote. Lay OCarms have very good formation, we are not step-children to the Discalced but another (older, by the way) branch of the same order. The scapular is part of our tradition and is a sign of our following Jesus under the care of Mary, the 'primary' disciple. The church makes allowances for those who prefer to wear a scapular medal to the cloth scapular. I like the cloth but I am not going to the wall over that.

My point was that if a monstery goes off track there are means to address this. The General of the order being one and maybe the most important. The nuns of the Indy carmel are faithful and faith-full sisters who sought to make the carmelite way more available to the wider community.

I will miss their web presence very much. Their book order dept is being moved to the Carmel of Reno Nevada and those sisters (a 'daughter' carmel of Indy) will maintain the book order/publishing.

I know inclusive language is a hot button for many...but each has to pray the way then can, not the way they can't (Teresa of Jesus). I think we have to respect people's integrity for making changes that they have prayerfully done after much consideration and struggle.


Blessings!

[quote name='franktocarm' date='May 12 2008, 05:49 PM' post='1526174']
Yes, EWIE, I am familiar with what you wrote. Lay OCarms have very good formation, we are not step-children to the Discalced but another (older, by the way) branch of the same order. ....The church makes allowances for those who prefer to wear a scapular medal to the cloth scapular

You're preaching to the choir, Dear.
My sincere apologies if I have offended you. That was certainly NOT my intention.

Maybe the wearing of a habit is not really up for grabs! Within the last two
months, they Holy Father again repeated his request for men & women
religious and even secular priests to return to the use of the habit and the
secular priests to the use of the cassock or at least the clergymen suits.
We are not being uncaritable nor do we need to apoligize for telling some-
one the truth, with charity, of course ( as Blessed John XXIII used to say ).
Jesus never apoligized for telling the truth. And, truth to tell, all of the com-
munities w/o a habit have both their members & their days counted.

The Sisters of the Gospel of Life have an excellent response on the contentious habit question. Here is the text of Sr Roseann's blog entry on the topic:

Since we started the blog in July, we’ve had some queries regarding our habit, specifically on the question of veils. I apologise that it has taken so long to answer - I’m new to the blog scene and not as proficient at answering questions as many of the more experienced bloggers. Also, as you can imagine, we’re kept very busy. However, now that things have quietened down, I wanted to respond.

Firstly, as a new community (founded in 2000) with our main apostolate of crisis pregnancy care and the spreading of the Gospel of Life, we decided right from the very beginning to wear some form of dress that was recognisably religious. This we have always done, albeit with a few variations along the way. What we currently wear (and have done for the last four years) is our final choice and consists of a simple, long black tunic dress worn over a plain white round-neck top. Over this is worn a simple black cardigan for warmth. We wear sensible black shoes in the winter months and equally sensible black sandals in warmer weather.

Around our neck we wear a long silver chain with a crucifix (the one associated with Pope John Paul II) and on our ring finger we wear a simple silver rosary ring, which will be replaced with a wedding band when we take our final vows.

It is in our constitutions that we will receive a long black veil as a mark of our consecration when we take our final vows. This veil we will wear in the majority of situations, removing it only when pastoral concerns dictate otherwise. To help you understand what this means, let me explain a little bit about our working environment.

When we start working with a pregnant woman, one of the first things we assure her of is complete confidentiality. If we go to visit the woman, in her own home or in hospital, we generally wear a jacket over our habits so as not to be quite so conspicuous, thereby not breaking our promise of confidentiality.

In future, when we hope to take the veil following our final profession, we will wear it primarily as a mark of our consecration, and secondly as a witness to the world.

I am afraid there is no possibility of the “real nuns” habit some have mentioned: we are an active, dynamic young community doing what we believe to be the most important work of our time – protecting the lives, rights and dignity of all human persons from conception until natural death – against great odds and a society that has been corrupted by the “culture of death”. No one who meets us is in any doubt that we are religious sisters – our dress and, please God, our lives, demonstrate this in abundance.

We do as the Church requires in wearing a simple form of dress which is distinctly religious, ‘a religious garb that distinguishes us as consecrated persons’ (Vita Religiosa, 34). This habit is however ‘suited to the time and place and to the needs of the apostolate’ (Perfectae Caritatis, 17).

With regard to whether or not we will attract vocations if we don’t have a “real” habit, I must confess that I’m not sure we would want any young woman whose main marker for following God would be that she got to wear such a habit.

We love and admire our contemplative sisters who wear a full habit and it is right and fitting for their way of life. We recently spent our retreat with a wonderful community of enclosed nuns. We sat in choir with them, we ate in silence with them, we worshipped God at Mass with them and they had no problem with our mode of dress – in fact, except for the veil, one could hardly tell the difference.

As a community, we wear a discernible habit. Every day we say the full office, have a holy hour, attend Mass, say the Rosary and Divine Mercy, and eat our meals – all of this we do together. We participate in the life of the local Church, we fast when the Church fasts and we feast when she feasts. We have an annual community retreat, spiritual direction every six weeks and Confession at least every two weeks. In addition, we try our very best every day to save unborn babies from being aborted and their mothers from making the biggest mistake of their lives. To paraphrase the great St Thomas More in A Man For All Seasons, if this be not enough to keep a man alive or, in our case, to prove that we are “real” religious sisters … We just long to get on with the task the Lord has given us.

This has been an epic response, but one I felt I had to give. I will not, however, be getting into a debate about habits/veils since, frankly, there are more important things to do. So please feel free to comment, feel free to pray for vocations to our community and encourage anyone you know who may feel called to our way of life – but please do not expect any more comment from me.

God bless,
Sr Roseann

The thought that these sisters were nagged to wear a 'real habit' by people not even in the religious life bothers me a little. It is easy for those of us who are on the sidelines to say, "The reason that the Community of St Such-and-Such is not flourishing is because they don't have a wimple and a coif as part of their habit!" It wouldn't be so easy for us to say the same thing if we were actually part of the community of St Such-and-Such.

Unless you are a member of a monastery that is closing (or God) you can't really know the reasons for it and it is unhelpful to speculate. When the sisters' religious dress is blamed, it's not only unhelpful but unfair.

Right! It does not have to be an elaborate piece of work: just some type of dress
that marks the person as being one consecrated to God. And it is to be +/- uniform
for all the members. I do speak from experience; it saves also in terms of time &
money. Thus, it is a witness to holy poverty and also a safeguard to the vow of
chastity.

Spoke with Sr. Helen Yesterday of the Indpls Carmel and they are getting ready to move! Lots of Packing etc. She said the Franciscan Sr's Have been wonderful, and that they are looking forward to them coming down. Also when I was In Rock Island today Sr. Bobbi told me that the Vocation Director there@ Oldenberg had told her the same thing that they were thrilled and excited to have them come.

Sr. Helen always told me and this was over 20 years ago, that she thought that "Monasteries have a Life Span" and that when their purpose is served, they move on or dissolve. The Sisters of Indpls are looking forward to a new phase in their ministry now. I don't know what the Lord has in store for them but I imagine it will be filled with grace.

My visit to Rock Island was wonderful, though Dad was Home sick, and I had to go alone, and I look forward to going to the Cleveland Carmel at the end of the Month.

As of this point I don't know where I will end up, but I will have a decision made By Mid June if not before. I am really trying to stay open to where God is leading me.

I feel I am the Richest Person in the world, I may not have much in the way of Monetary blessing right now, but I have 4 monasteries of Nuns praying for my Vocation. That is a truly Humbling Grace. Plus i have my wonderful Phatmassers praying as well.

I just think about how this journey has gone for all of us here at VS, Some of us Have gone off to the Monastery, some are discerning, and some are in a Holding pattern right now listening for God's will. One thing for sure for me is, I am so grateful this Phorum is here what a wonderful gift.

Blessings,
+
Nancy