Very true about the good questions. It is good to ask questions, and these have been good questions. And Gemma has answered them very well too.

I believe though that the thread went from asking good questions and answering good questions to a definite insinuation that Gemma might not be being faithful to her vocation and comments that, I took, to be very authoritative in telling Gemma what she should or shouldn’t pray for and how she should live out her vocation as a wife and mother and, the vocation she believes God to be calling her too, as a foundress. I didn’t know anyone had the place to make those comments expect God and one’s superiors.

For the Latinists out there:
There's a saying in medicine:

primum non nocere.
Above all, do no harm.

A wise and experienced diocesan hermit , Sr. Laurel, ( member moniker SRLAUREL) has contributed in this forum in April, 2008, and her intelligent and informed, albeit few, posts should be consulted by anyone interested in learning more about life as a hermit of any description. I would think that the guidance of an experienced hermit to be invaluable to anyone considering this sort of life.

She is:

Sister Laurel M O'Neal
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

Her blog is: http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com/

There's also a quarterly about hermitage life, "Raven's Bread", http://www.op.org/ravensbread/
--which cost only $10.00/year, with issues available online at the website.

Are these five of an age where by the time they have gone through all the necessary preparations, they will still be young enough to be flexible?

Where will they receive their original formation?
The Angelic Doctor St Thomas, suggests that socia1 life, indeed community life, is a prerequisite.The Bishop usually requires that a potential hermit, experience formation in community, preferably a cloistered order. All of my canonical hermit friends were either first in a religious community from the git-go, or were asked to take their formation in one. Particularly the canonical novitiate year.
Formation for the eremetical life is an entire differant ballgame than it is for the cenobitic life. The responsibilities are quite differant as are the dangers that the vocation entails.

Will the hermits be considered diocesean? Will the vows be public or private?
Since a Hermit professed according to Canon 603 is not a member of a religious institute as such, it is important to be aware of the nature of a vow outside the context of a recognized religious institute.

Canon 1191 n.1 states: "A vow is a deliberate and free promise made to God concerning a possible and better good which must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion." One must have reached the age of reason and not be otherwise forbidden by law from making a vow, and the vow must be free of"grave and unjust fear or fraud" Canon 1192 n.l is important because it defines public and personal vows: "A vow is public if it is accepted in the name of the Church by a legitimate superior; otherwise it is private." Since Canon 603 requires public profession "in the hands of the diocessm bishop", the bishop is the "legitimate superior" who receives the vow in the name of the Church. Althouugh the code does not explicitly mention dispensation from vows for a publicly professed Hermit, Canon 691 (which gives a diocesan bishop authority to dispense members of congregationss of diocesan right from vows) would presumably confer the same right in regard to Hermits.

What Rule or Plan of Life has been decided upon?
Canon 1194 is also important. It states: "A vow ceases when the time appointed for the fillfillment of its obligation has passed, when there is a substantial change in the matter promised or when the condition on which the vow depends or the purpose for which it was made no longer exists; it also ceases through dispensation or commutation." Here the "plan of life" mentioned in Canon 603 n.2 is extremely important because the vows made to the diocesan bishop will be based on living out that plan - not in an abstract profession of values. Thus, a Hermit undertakes a public and concrete commitment and lifestyle in a particular location under the authorily of the diocesan bishop.

Who will have ultimate responsibility for the members. (as in the buck stops here) For their physical and spiritual needs. Obviously is can't be you for a variety of reasons. Who will have the authority for final acceptance of these members.

Who is your Formator? Again obviously it can't be you.

Who is your Canonist?

What will their self supporting means be?

About how long do you think that these plans will sit in Rome before being given some sort of official status?

Thank you,

Many Blessings to you Gemma.
I have been following everything daily. It is so wonderful to see people open to the Way of the Lord. Gemma, please continue keeping your heart and soul open to His Wisdom. I am so happy for you. Please know that you and also those who are being called to live a life of a hermit will be in my daily prayers.
The Holy Spirit is truly blessing us with "New Renewals" in the church.

Pax et Bonum,
Br. Ed

Gemma, thank you for taking the time to respond to these questions.
I have one more......Will a copy of the eremitcal rule be available to anyone?

ps. congratulations on your sons achievements. You must be very proud of him.

+ Praise be Jesus!

I have been very busy at home getting the oldest settled into her new Carmelite Monastery - doing well all whom have asked! Thank you for the prayers, please keep them coming. The youngest (baby) is growing, and well, the rest are in their places, keeping all of us busy. I know I have PM's - which I will answer - but allow me to weigh in on this one quickly.

I cannot remember if I have spoken publicly or just in PM's that I am a former therapist, with a specialty in recovery from destructive cultic movements. I mention that only because my previous line of work (which has never left me!) comes in here.

There have been various comments and opinions being thrown about here, and many of them carry weight. The comments and opinions which ask for prayers and compassion are worthy as well, enough said.

Someone mentioned (forgive me for not going through each post line by line) Gemma being misleading. Another mentioned that if it is from God, it will grow.

From what I can see, and from what I have personally experienced, Gemma IS misleading. At this point, Gemma is NOT a Foundress of an Order or a Congregation. Gemma hopes to be. She has founded the Cloisterite Outreach so in that sense, YES, she is a FOUNDRESS. But of a religious order, no. Yes, she has conceived of the idea and in that sense, she has given birth to something which may in fact take hold at some point and grow into fruition. Certainly, we do not want to rob her of her dreams and hopes, and for that, yes, let us continue to pray that she will find great strength, support, encouragement and help. Let us ask the Lord to bless her desires and bring them to Holy Mother Church, for the greater glory of God and His children.

That being said, as another Phatmasser has already pointed out, this is a forum (phorum) that is used for information gathering, support, prayer, etc. This is not the appropriate place to advertise or attempt to gather new recruits to something that is not yet recognized as valid. Whomever said this is misleading is correct. A person without adequate resources could easily find herself wasting time, hoping to belong to one of the orders that Gemma has listed on her website - not fully realizing that these are imaginary orders; still in the process of conception. They certainly seem to be real to Gemma, but to one whom doesn't know better, it is difficult to tell.

Gemma, when you have your ducks in a row, so to speak, and approval from the Bishop and Cardinal, then begin your process of recruitment.

At this point, you have so many listed, with such details - that yes, it is easy to see how this could be perceived as disturbing. You must certainly recognize that how a Mother, with two big children, living with autism, inventing orders - including habits, spiritualities, schedules, and different charisms, without the direct input of a recognized Church official comes across. One of my precious children was born with Down's Syndrome, and I recognize the challenges one faces in dealing with a difference. All the more reason, especially as you have already explained, it affects your ability to communicate, you need to be formally recognized.

As for...if it is from God, it will grow, I must take issue with that. Sadly, in our world, we have many things that our Creater has allowed to grow that have not been blessed by Him. In fact, many things have been fostered within the confines of the Church Herself. I see no need to list any here, but sadly, I have no doubt many of you can think of some on your own. We have been blessed with Free Will, and this is an example. Each Diocese has a Vicar of Religious and it is his/her job to guide and support communities - amongst other things. Need I mention that often (as has been discussed!) a community needs correction, watching and/or help? The Church is very careful in establishing new communities, and with good reason. And naturally, just because an Order wears a habit does not mean they are solid, strong or in good standing. (Look at the many that are so sadly in schism that fit that description.)

This thread has been good in that opinions and thoughts have been expressed politely and in charity. Critical thinking is one of the hallmarks of our great Faith, and we are not a destructive cult, which prohibits questioning and accepts only black/white dogma. Gemma, I do commend you for answering and keeping a cool head, which must be hard. You will be under scrutiny, as you most surely know, if you move forward.

No, you have not asked for advice, but I will give it anyway. There would be no questions, no objections or suspicions if you were under the authority of the Church proper and were working in tandem with Her. Anybody can create a website and imagine monasteries, habits and spiritualities. Until you are recognized as a legitimate and solid individual, with a first and last name, with a mailing address, who has received appropriate approval, you will be under suspicion. At this point, you are the Great Oz, sitting behind a keyboard. It IS disturbing and most unsavory.

In helping my daughter find the right community for her life as a cloistered nun, we visited many, many Monasteries across the country. Many of them are in need of new vocations, and do not have the resources to create beautiful websites or answer their mail (or email) in the most timely of ways. I cannot help but wish (and pray) that you would use your obvious talents and spirited imagination to support and hold many of these existing Monasteries.

Additionally, there are many, many "new" communities that are in the process of being established, with women and men living in community, working out their Rule, their Spirit, their life. These communities, albeit in the beginning stages, are valid and honest about their situation, and those who are in the process of "founding" them (as another poster indicated) are living the life themselves. This is very different than the creation of "proposed" communities, created via the internet.

Like another poster, I am quite alarmed that a moderator has not acted on this. I have had links removed that offer further clarification on real points, and yet, this remains. The next time we should see an "Update" on this subject is when Gemma receives some official status and comes out from behind the curtain. Until then, this must be recognized as a fictitious situation. Sad, but true.

Gemma, I will continue to pray for you. May you find a Bishop that will guide you.

TradMom

As I understand it, looking at whether a community (or a foundress) is living in accordance with their calling and within the scope of their vocation is a fundamental part of discernment. Nobody has any right to comment on a person's intimate and private relationship with Our Lord, but if somebody is trying to actively recruit other people for a mission or a ministry, it is only sensible to look carefully for any discrepancies.

I discovered this a few months ago when I started to learn Latin again with a lady who had introduced herself to me as a sister and a foundress. She invited me to come to the 'convent' for my Latin lessons and spoke in the first person plural when describing her order's charism: "Our mission is peace and reconciliation - we're hoping to open houses here, here, here, and here..."

It turned out that her convent was a one-bedroom flat. The liberal use of 'our' was deceptive - there was only one person involved in this work. X had been in contact with the bishop of our diocese and had enlisted the help of a supportive canon lawyer and a Carmelite prioress to help her with the foundation. The bishop, she told me triumphantly, had asked her to write a rule of life...but then he had started 'persecuting' her, sent her horrible letters, and told her that she couldn't make the foundation. I asked her warily why he had said no, and she said, "You shouldn't be asking that. You should be asking me why he asked me to write the rule of life!" She got quite agitated about it. As the discussion progressed, I discovered that she was a married woman (I didn't dare to ask after the status of her marriage in the eyes of the church). Some of the things in her proposed community rule also gave me concern (such as the stipulation that sisters should have the option to leave the order for good at the end of each decade) but when I voiced my queries, she very quickly told me that a canonist had looked over the rule and pronounced it to be all right, so what was there to worry about?

X asked me to 'take us into your thinking' regarding my own vocational discernment. It was at this point that I found out that my priest had banned her from the chaplaincy because she had been trying to recruit female students for her order. (Again, she described this as 'persecution'.) Father has subsequently told me that X is a lovely and generous lady, very devout, but that I should steer well clear of any discussion of religious life with her - which is a difficult thing to do, as she is rarely willing to let the subject drop.

I am taking Father's advice because I can't see how what X is trying to do is compatible with her own particular station in life. If I notice discrepancies such as the ones I have described in this post, I will ask questions about them - even if they appear to reflect unfavourably on the aspiring foundress. When I asked X why the bishop had denied her permission to found her community, she turned hostile and tried to direct my attention to another area. But I think it would have been much worse of me not to ask that question.

The same goes for anybody who is trying to found a new community. Tough questions will be asked because they need to be asked. We are talking about men and women dedicating their whole lives to God through poverty, chastity, and obedience. That's a serious commitment, and as a result the questioning and testing may be intense and not always comfortable for the one who has to answer them.

As I understand it, looking at whether a community (or a foundress) is living in accordance with their calling and within the scope of their vocation is a fundamental part of discernment. Nobody has any right to comment on a person's intimate and private relationship with Our Lord, but if somebody is trying to actively recruit other people for a mission or a ministry, it is only sensible to look carefully for any discrepancies.

I discovered this a few months ago when I started to learn Latin again with a lady who had introduced herself to me as a sister and a foundress. She invited me to come to the 'convent' for my Latin lessons and spoke in the first person plural when describing her order's charism: "Our mission is peace and reconciliation - we're hoping to open houses here, here, here, and here..."

It turned out that her convent was a one-bedroom flat. The liberal use of 'our' was deceptive - there was only one person involved in this work. X had been in contact with the bishop of our diocese and had enlisted the help of a supportive canon lawyer and a Carmelite prioress to help her with the foundation. The bishop, she told me triumphantly, had asked her to write a rule of life...but then he had started 'persecuting' her, sent her horrible letters, and told her that she couldn't make the foundation. I asked her warily why he had said no, and she said, "You shouldn't be asking that. You should be asking me why he asked me to write the rule of life!" She got quite agitated about it. As the discussion progressed, I discovered that she was a married woman (I didn't dare to ask after the status of her marriage in the eyes of the church). Some of the things in her proposed community rule also gave me concern (such as the stipulation that sisters should have the option to leave the order for good at the end of each decade) but when I voiced my queries, she very quickly told me that a canonist had looked over the rule and pronounced it to be all right, so what was there to worry about?

X asked me to 'take us into your thinking' regarding my own vocational discernment. It was at this point that I found out that my priest had banned her from the chaplaincy because she had been trying to recruit female students for her order. (Again, she described this as 'persecution'.) Father has subsequently told me that X is a lovely and generous lady, very devout, but that I should steer well clear of any discussion of religious life with her - which is a difficult thing to do, as she is rarely willing to let the subject drop.

I am taking Father's advice because I can't see how what X is trying to do is compatible with her own particular station in life. If I notice discrepancies such as the ones I have described in this post, I will ask questions about them - even if they appear to reflect unfavourably on the aspiring foundress. When I asked X why the bishop had denied her permission to found her community, she turned hostile and tried to direct my attention to another area. But I think it would have been much worse of me not to ask that question.

The same goes for anybody who is trying to found a new community. Tough questions will be asked because they need to be asked. We are talking about men and women dedicating their whole lives to God through poverty, chastity, and obedience. That's a serious commitment, and as a result the questioning and testing may be intense and not always comfortable for the one who has to answer them.

Thank you for the charity of your prayers.

According to our hermitess-canonist, a person is a founder at the moment of the charism's conception.

I have mental health professionals available as references if you doubt my sanity. Testing has proven me sane many times over. I simply have communications and social skills deficits, not schizophrenia. I've said before that my personal motto is "Nihil Sum" (I am nothing).

Engineering wives are to be seen and not heard from. This is why I have to "remain behind the curtain" until the Holy Ghost and Our Lady work the grace for him not to be persecuted politically at work due to what I'm doing.

It is also for the safety of my family that I have to go by "Gemma." If you're that concerned with who I really am, why not PM?

Blessings,
Gemma

Gemma, I don't think that anyone on this forum is questioning your sanity, your good intentions, or want to know who you are.

We are just discussing the appropriateness of your efforts and the potential gravity of the situations which they may create.

...that's all.

[If there was a question of appropriateness, the hermitess-canonist would have let me know from the beginning.

Gemma,
We trust you more than we can trust a nameless "hermitess-canonist." I had requested a name for this person. You are in the public format and therefore no reason to be secretive about the name.

One of my friends is a "foundress, hermit, canon lawyer' also.

I will wait for the answers to my questions regarding Canons of the church, which were asked in a previous message.

+ Praise be Jesus!

I have been very busy at home getting the oldest settled into her new Carmelite Monastery - doing well all whom have asked! Thank you for the prayers, please keep them coming. The youngest (baby) is growing, and well, the rest are in their places, keeping all of us busy. I know I have PM's - which I will answer - but allow me to weigh in on this one quickly.

I cannot remember if I have spoken publicly or just in PM's that I am a former therapist, with a specialty in recovery from destructive cultic movements. I mention that only because my previous line of work (which has never left me!) comes in here.

There have been various comments and opinions being thrown about here, and many of them carry weight. The comments and opinions which ask for prayers and compassion are worthy as well, enough said.

Someone mentioned (forgive me for not going through each post line by line) Gemma being misleading. Another mentioned that if it is from God, it will grow.

From what I can see, and from what I have personally experienced, Gemma IS misleading. At this point, Gemma is NOT a Foundress of an Order or a Congregation. Gemma hopes to be. She has founded the Cloisterite Outreach so in that sense, YES, she is a FOUNDRESS. But of a religious order, no. Yes, she has conceived of the idea and in that sense, she has given birth to something which may in fact take hold at some point and grow into fruition. Certainly, we do not want to rob her of her dreams and hopes, and for that, yes, let us continue to pray that she will find great strength, support, encouragement and help. Let us ask the Lord to bless her desires and bring them to Holy Mother Church, for the greater glory of God and His children.

That being said, as another Phatmasser has already pointed out, this is a forum (phorum) that is used for information gathering, support, prayer, etc. This is not the appropriate place to advertise or attempt to gather new recruits to something that is not yet recognized as valid. Whomever said this is misleading is correct. A person without adequate resources could easily find herself wasting time, hoping to belong to one of the orders that Gemma has listed on her website - not fully realizing that these are imaginary orders; still in the process of conception. They certainly seem to be real to Gemma, but to one whom doesn't know better, it is difficult to tell.

Gemma, when you have your ducks in a row, so to speak, and approval from the Bishop and Cardinal, then begin your process of recruitment.

At this point, you have so many listed, with such details - that yes, it is easy to see how this could be perceived as disturbing. You must certainly recognize that how a Mother, with two big children, living with autism, inventing orders - including habits, spiritualities, schedules, and different charisms, without the direct input of a recognized Church official comes across. One of my precious children was born with Down's Syndrome, and I recognize the challenges one faces in dealing with a difference. All the more reason, especially as you have already explained, it affects your ability to communicate, you need to be formally recognized.

As for...if it is from God, it will grow, I must take issue with that. Sadly, in our world, we have many things that our Creater has allowed to grow that have not been blessed by Him. In fact, many things have been fostered within the confines of the Church Herself. I see no need to list any here, but sadly, I have no doubt many of you can think of some on your own. We have been blessed with Free Will, and this is an example. Each Diocese has a Vicar of Religious and it is his/her job to guide and support communities - amongst other things. Need I mention that often (as has been discussed!) a community needs correction, watching and/or help? The Church is very careful in establishing new communities, and with good reason. And naturally, just because an Order wears a habit does not mean they are solid, strong or in good standing. (Look at the many that are so sadly in schism that fit that description.)

This thread has been good in that opinions and thoughts have been expressed politely and in charity. Critical thinking is one of the hallmarks of our great Faith, and we are not a destructive cult, which prohibits questioning and accepts only black/white dogma. Gemma, I do commend you for answering and keeping a cool head, which must be hard. You will be under scrutiny, as you most surely know, if you move forward.

No, you have not asked for advice, but I will give it anyway. There would be no questions, no objections or suspicions if you were under the authority of the Church proper and were working in tandem with Her. Anybody can create a website and imagine monasteries, habits and spiritualities. Until you are recognized as a legitimate and solid individual, with a first and last name, with a mailing address, who has received appropriate approval, you will be under suspicion. At this point, you are the Great Oz, sitting behind a keyboard. It IS disturbing and most unsavory.

In helping my daughter find the right community for her life as a cloistered nun, we visited many, many Monasteries across the country. Many of them are in need of new vocations, and do not have the resources to create beautiful websites or answer their mail (or email) in the most timely of ways. I cannot help but wish (and pray) that you would use your obvious talents and spirited imagination to support and hold many of these existing Monasteries.

Additionally, there are many, many "new" communities that are in the process of being established, with women and men living in community, working out their Rule, their Spirit, their life. These communities, albeit in the beginning stages, are valid and honest about their situation, and those who are in the process of "founding" them (as another poster indicated) are living the life themselves. This is very different than the creation of "proposed" communities, created via the internet.

Like another poster, I am quite alarmed that a moderator has not acted on this. I have had links removed that offer further clarification on real points, and yet, this remains. The next time we should see an "Update" on this subject is when Gemma receives some official status and comes out from behind the curtain. Until then, this must be recognized as a fictitious situation. Sad, but true.

Gemma, I will continue to pray for you. May you find a Bishop that will guide you.

TradMom

Well, apologies to all for the formatting of my posts. Perhaps I will figure out what I did wrong, and perhaps someone will assists me. In any case, I hope the second one is readable nonetheless.

I don't usually post, but just read the various threads. I am familiar with Gemma's work and the Cloister Outreach. She has shared her name and other individuals helping her with those seriously interested in the Cloister Outreach. It is not easy to give up a teaching position (I am a teacher) and moving some where else. It takes time to find a new position. Gemma recognizes that some of us were not quite ready for the cenobitic life at present. She tried to start the cenobitic form, that has turned to the ermetical form. Most of her aspirants have spoken with her about the change. We are not young girls looking for a convent. Some of us have tried religous life before. Gemma communicates through email. I know some of the Phatmass Phorum has their doubts, but she has been very honest with her aspirants. Even in conventional religous life it takes 7-10 years to make final vows. As aspirants we are required to have our own spiritual director to help us enter the life of a hermit. Our spiritual director will help us and the local bishop decide if our journey is on the right road. If you don't like this thread, then please don't read it. This thread is to update possible aspirants and other interested parties. Sorry for any spelling errors, I have just had eye surgery!
May you take a leap of faith like the Caananite woman in today's Gospel!
Ann Stanton]]

THANK YOU St. Laurel.

In the history of monastic life (I am excepting the Desert Fathers and Mothers) the eremitical life is seen as the culmination of the cenobitic form of life. It has been the case for 17 centuries that hermits are generally drawn from those who are experienced in the cenobitic life, mature in it, and ready for greater solitude.

Yes; when I read Ann Staton's post the chapter of St. Benedict's Rule jumped into my head about the four different types of monks. Two types are effectively good-for-nothings, then you have cenobites, and after many years some cenobites are led into the eremitical life.

Now I suppose it's true St. Benedict could be wrong, or that his generalisation doesn't hold for all, but as someone who thinks he's a kick-ass guy who knows human nature better than most the idea of being a hermit in order to prepare for community life strikes me as putting the cart very firmly before the horse.