Gemma, she was trying not to make the questions sound offensive, and she was just wondering about them. She tried not to make them sound rude or anything, and you don't have to sound annoyed at her.

It's a man, Rose, and he also posted over on my blog. That's what's so annoying, esp. when the questions, as phrased here, are more accusatory.

Blessings,
Gemma

I don't see the questions asked by that man as accusatory or inflammatory. People who read about these supposed orders from the Cloisters have the right to know what is going on with them and question some of the strange things about them. I am NOT the only one on this forum and others that have the very same and more questions and thoughts on these things.

Also, it seems YOU gave the Our Lady, "the Lady of Cloisters" so to tell that poster to go and have to her to pretty much get her head straight is another odd thing! Now if you said "Our Lady of Fatima" or of Lourdes or just Our Lady that is fine.

When you post your numerous orders with all kinds of charisms,other weird things and such on various forums on the web, you must be ready to answer questions and not jump on the "he's accusing me and annoying me" boat. As for the Saint and Blessed you mentioned who founded orders - they were just that! A Saint and Blessed who were perfectly able to found AND do the formation of their aspirants.

I have a friend who has been trying to found a traditional, full habited Carmel that, like Rosalind Moss's order, will be open from ages 18 to 118 and she is having a hard time due to many bishops telling her she must have a nun who has been a Carmelite novice mistress or prioress to form them or have these women be excepted into an established Carmel for several years for formation. She herself was in a Carmel for 3-4 years but had to leave due to health reasons and she is more formed in religious life than yourself, I'd say to form others in the religious life. Just because a lay person has a great prayer life, etc., doesn't make them qualified to form others in the religious life when you yourself have never lived it. Sure you may get someone who has I guess but all these are questions a discerner who is serious about their vocation and wanting to persevere better think about. It's tough enough already to enter an establish order and persevere where there are plenty of nuns/sisters formed for decades!

I suppose I will be labeled "annoying, accusatory or attacking", but I am not the only one on this forum and others thinking this and more. It is important that people discerning and longing to enter an order want to join yours and if they never go anywhere or get up and running, this person or persons will have wasted their precious time they could have spent on well established orders and already have entered and started their religious life.

Rosalind Moss's order will be up and running soon. Maybe God WILL have one or more of your's running - who knows? But as we don't know, people should be allowed to ask questions and in humility, love, understanding and charity you should not get so easily offended and accuse someone of being "accusatory" when you have no idea of their state of mind while writing these questions.

The problem with emails and forum writing is that you CANNOT see the person's face, sound and tone of their voice, their facial expressions, gestures, their eyes, etc. so the written word can come across with the wrong tone to the reader. You have no idea whether that man with the questions was being accusatory or just curious and you just read into it the wrong tone. I know I don't have before me what he wrote to you on your board, so my post now is only what he posted on Phatmass.

In an earlier thread, someone asked slightly tough questions and it just went away. It was like "don't upset or be mean to Gemma" and all that did was not get any answers to help people understand because if it did, perhaps this man might not have written pretty much the same questions yet again. You are probably a nice woman, but this whole thing is about people's vocations, their lives they want to give to God and for any new orders that want to pop up, these people and others like myself who are curious and who are personally asked if these orders are for real or just figments would like to know questions and a for a supposed "foundress" to get so easily annoyed and not respond out of love and charity is not a "foundress" or order I would be interested in or would recommend.

I did have a young person ask me about these "orders" and I told her to discern else where and just watch and see - watch how these questions are answered and wait to see what happens but discern elsewhere. If these orders are to be, God will do it but many have doubts that I can see, have read about and been written to. We are talking about young and not so young hearts on fire with the love of God and personal feelings shouldn't come into play when being questioned and when souls are looking for God and may end up wasting precious time on some order that may never be come to anything.

Life is to short.

Again, I'm the only one on these boards who ever gets blasted the way I do.

Face it, I'm human and I'm an Aspie. Sometimes I have a tendency to take things the wrong way. The question about the headdress was, to my logical Aspie mind, rather ridiculous. Jesus is the reason why the aspirants are there in the first place. To suggest otherwise is. . .well, I've already said it--ridiculous.

Our Lady of the Cloister is a legit title. It's on the Marian calendar, and is celebrated on October 10 in France--at least according to that calendar it is.

And yes, telling someone to go get quiet and ask Our Lady herself is a legit discernment tool.

Blessings,
Gemma

Gemma - you are not the only one who gets asked tough questions on this board or who thinks that they are being "blasted". One religious sister left because she felt hostility. Sometimes things may seem heated because, as LG said, online it is impossible to seek facial expression, hear the voice etc.

Your "Aspie" status probably doesn't make it easier for you either, but one of the things you might want to develop, especially as a foundress, is the old "water off a duck's back" mentality. Those who don't understand, probably won't, and those who do, do.

I support what you are trying to do but I also understand why some people ask you the penetrating questions. Your foundations have been in the planning stage for a long time, and not much progress is being seen, so people will wonder if they are just in your imagination or not. That is a valid concern for people who are looking to give their lives to God. There are more new communities popping up than ever before. It seems like these days, everyone who doesn't fit into other communities thinks they should just go out and start their own (I even had this thought myself once !) So naturally people wonder about any new community. I was told by a very high authority figure in vocations (a priest) that he didn't think I should join Ros because new communities don't usually last very long! So you are not the only one who gets challenged. Ros herself told me that she has had Bishops tell her she is crazy! So see - you are in good company!

You simply must not take every question or criticism as a personal attack however - it tends to look a little paranoid - which will not help your mission at all. Remember that there are lots of people who are praying for you and want you to succeed but don't forget that you are the "face" of your communities and how you react to criticism and or questions will give people more information about your foundations than anything you post on your website!

So, take a deep breath and smile. God loves you. And to paraphrase a priest who counseled me once... "God does not love you because you are a foundress. You are becoming a foundress because you love God!" If your foundations never succeed, God will still love you. You are in my prayers, dear sister.

Kudos to Nunsense and Laudem Gloriae for the wonderfully written and helpful constructive criticism, and for pointing out a few very important aspects of the Cloisterite foundation which up to now have been overlooked.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify for the younger seekers and discerners on this forum, the very tenuous situation they could possibly be facing by NOT asking the right questions.

gemma, if you find posting the same questions very annoying, i am very sorry. I didn't mean to be a stalker, or to accuse you , to scare you, etc. I just thought you wouldn't see my question in bravenet. your foundations are intresting but i would just like to clarify some things. i keep on visiting your site to see the progress and now i had the chance to ask you, seeing that some persons are also asking some questions here in phatmass. and I am so surprised to see your answer. you accused me and scared me to death. it is just hurting to know someone accusing me. i didn't gave you criticisms or what, but i just asked. What's wrong in asking? If you find my tone there annoying and very offensive, im so sorry but i didn't mean it!

i just want to add that you will see the same words, the same letters, the same spaces on gemma's blog and on this forum.my gosh, i respected you, but i feel that i don't get respect from you. it is so sad. you are telling me to keep silent. it is just hurting. when you are discerning a vocation, you don't just discern with yourself. you ask guidance from a spiritual director. that is very contrary to you statement - telling me just to keep silent.

i am very sorry if i am hurting you again but i am very much hurt with your words. gosh..

Thanks for your clear answer. It answered all my questions. No need to ask some questions again because now I know.

Yes, this is unfortunate. We are in the same boat. We scared each other. We are human, and I have a communications and social skills disorder. How I wish I had a spokesperson.

I simply asked you to do some interior discernment, I was not telling you to be quiet. I would have been interested in seeing what you received during that silent prayer.

I am not a spiritual director. That is the responsibility of a priest or someone else there locally with you.

I get email notifications of blog comments. However, I must point out that the word "disturbing" was on the Phatmass post only, and not on the blog. In English, "disturbing" means "deeply troubling."

Ask anyone who actually knows me--I am no monster. Quite the opposite.

I now request that any further communication take place through email: foundress2003@yahoo.com

Be at peace, and may we allow the Holy Ghost to act as reconciler.

Blessings,
Gemma

this is what i posted on your blog.
now compare with the phatmass post.

I stand corrected. Please pray the eyeglass lab makes haste with my new glasses. Then, perhaps, I won't make such mistakes.

Now--tell me--why does the headdress issue disturb you? (This question should lead you to further interior discernment).

I received this method of discernment from a hermitess who is also a founder. I kept asking her questions, and she told me to see what the Holy Ghost was leading me to do--as he works on attraction.

Peace, reconciliation, and blessings in the Holy Ghost,
Gemma

Because it seems to focus on the instrument, not on the service. I got the idea from PCPA nuns:
http://olamshrine.com/nuns_progression.html

One aspect of the Cloisterite charism that distinguishes it from others is the fact that they don't pray for their own vocations--they pray exclusively for other cloisters' vocations, and those of emerging charisms.

Religious habits are full of symbolism for the charism. The headdress is symbolic of the cloister wall. When one nun sees the other nuns' headdress, it should remind her of the charism that she has been assigned to pray for for a year. When she puts it on in the morning, again, it's a reminder. Taking it off at night, a prayer for protection for that assigned charism.

Of course, the Cloisterite prays for personal perseverance in their own personal vocation, but there are no prayers in the Sancta Regula which are specifically for Cloisterite vocations. They are not only making reparation until their last sigh, but everything they do is for others' vocations. This is similar to what the Society of Helpers of the Holy Souls did--offering everything for the Poor Souls in Purgatory, to include the post-death suffrage prayers offered for them. (I am not sure if their post-Conciliar congregation still does that).

I pray this answers your question.

Peace, reconciliation, and blessings in the Holy Ghost,
Gemma

Where are the moderators?

This entire thread is entirely disturbing, and I have addressed it before within the confines of this phorum.

Gemma, I have no doubt you are sincere in your desires to be a foundress of many Orders. However, you speak with an authority that is very misleading. As has been pointed out here before, many times - over and over again -this is a place where people (apparently younger people) come for advice, support and encouragement.

Links to orders that are not in line with Rome are immediately deleted and yet, this entire thread - about IMAGINARY Orders has been allowed to continue.

I have no doubt that at some point, your dreams will become a reality, but until that happens, I think it would be more appropriate to help direct people to established communities.

Holy Mother Church, whether any of us like it or not, has allowed (for a variety of reasons and purposes) Women Religious to dress in myriad forms. None of us are in any position to direct someone regarding their spirituality or interior prayer life based upon their desire for a habit, headress, veil or whatnot. That is private - between God, the woman and the community.

There is no harm done, surely, in expressing our likes and desires, but anything other than that borders on spiritual direction and the last time I checked, that is inappropriate in this context.

Your website has a link to your email address; inquirers should be directed to you personally - to keep up with this role playing is confusing and misleading.

In the meantime, as you plan to found communities and have used this phorum (repeatedly) to attempt to garner interest, there is no reason to object to honest questions, critical thinking and clarifications.

Perpetualove

I took up your issues--since they've been voiced before--with a hermitess/founder/canon lawyer, and she said, "When does one become a mother?" Since we Catholics believe at conception, then a person becomes a founder at the conception of the charism.

Canon law also states that the local bishop is to be a loving, nurturing father to emerging charisms. I should think this also applies to the laity.

Everything I do is in alignment with Rome. I follow the same canon law as other emerging charisms.

We have about 7 aspirants for the Cloisterites, and about 4 (2 active; 1 recluse and 1 laity) for the CCMMs. The Cloisterites are living under a modified rule in their own homes (following Canon 603), until I can get the eremetical version done. The CCMMs are learning about Vincentian spirituality.

So, what's so imaginary about that?

Some of the aspirants are also planning to make some of the other charisms come to pass, when the time comes. Since it takes 4 to constitute a community, if there are 4 for any of the emerging charisms, we will help that group get started.

Blessings,
Gemma

If that is the case, then kindly provide addresses and the Archdiocese(s) that are overseeing these individual foundations.

Thank you.

Perpetualove

We're not to that point yet. Everything--all of the groundwork--has to be done before submitting the paperwork to the appropriate ordinary. The group has to be living together--living the rule--for some time before the submission of the rule and customary for diocesan approval.

Fr. Gambari's book says that there is no blueprint for the establishment of a community, other than getting the following things together: rule, constitutions, aspirants, remunerative work. If the emerging charism is having a problem securing a facility, they can ask the ordinary's assistance.

Such is part of the great frustration in making a new foundation. Every step has to be discerned. We can make out as many plans as we want, but, as I said, every step has to be discerned. I had been planning a cenobitic community for 20 years, but the Holy Ghost made a sudden right turn, and now we're assembling an eremetical charism-in-diaspora.

I also cannot post my personal address due to familial safety concerns. I am in the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, though.

Blessings,
Gemma

hey, this is very surprising. okay, relax, relax, relax...

Perpetualove - I think Hughey asked us to use the "Report" button if we wanted to draw something to the mods' attention.

[quote name='Gemma' date='Jun 11 2008, 10:25 PM' post='1568868']
We're not to that point yet. Everything--all of the groundwork--has to be done before submitting the paperwork to the appropriate ordinary. The group has to be living together--living the rule--for some time before the submission of the rule and customary for diocesan approval.

Fr. Gambari's book says that there is no blueprint for the establishment of a community, other than getting the following things together: rule, constitutions, aspirants, remunerative work. If the emerging charism is having a problem securing a facility, they can ask the ordinary's assistance.

Such is part of the great frustration in making a new foundation. Every step has to be discerned. We can make out as many plans as we want, but, as I said, every step has to be discerned. I had been planning a cenobitic community for 20 years, but the Holy Ghost made a sudden right turn, and now we're assembling an eremetical charism-in-diaspora.

I also cannot post my personal address due to familial safety concerns. I am in the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, though.

Blessings,
Gemma

Since you have already been very public about your orders, gathered aspirants, and made plans I would think now the opportune time to talk to the diocese offcials so you can have their full support. That way perhaps they can give you full backing and maybe even help you get started!

I second the motion. Go gemma and tell your bishop.

Our canon lawyer, also a founder (to whom the bishop sends discerners), says we are not that far along--believe it or not.

When I get the eremetical rule done, I will distribute it to the aspirants, and in six months, we will see where everyone is. Since we've had a change in focus, it will take some time for them to make the adjustments.

As for the CCMMs, we still have to move slowly.

Each step for each project has to be discerned. Each step. She advises that with each new idea, that I discern it for at least three days. This is not a speedy process.

Just everyone please give us the charity of prayer!

Blessings,
Gemma

If you are very sure that these are going to be established, ask your bishop or any officials to give you help. they must be with you to help you discern for a certain step. Their help is very important. So you must meet him now, or tomorrow, or today so that everything will be okay with them. If you are going to finish everything then present it to your bishop, he may need a longer time to make decisions, or he may alter everything. So meet him as soon as possible.

I've seen in your site your refernce to Canon 603, about the diaspora .. (can't recall it) . If you are going to read Canon 603 §2 it says A hermit is recognized by law as one dedicated to God in consecrated life if he or she publicly professes in the hands of the diocesan bishop the three evangelical counsels, confirmed by vow or other sacred bond, and observes a proper program of living under his direction., right?

Canon 605 The approval of new forms of consecrated life is reserved only to the Apostolic See. Diocesan bishops, however, are to strive to discern new gifts of consecrated life granted to the Church by the Holy Spirit and are to assist promoters so that these can express their proposals as well as possible and protect them by appropriate statutes; the general norms contained in this section are especially to be utilized.

I just wanted to mantion that w/regard to founders of multiple congregations &/or
institutes, as with Bl. James Alberione, who founded 9-10, all the groups follow
+/- the same spirit & spirituality. Since one person can belong to only one
spirit at a time, I fail to understand how ONE institute will incorporate ALL the
charisms that exist or have existed in the Church into that one institute (using
& studying ALL rules &/or constitutions) & then go out & found others....Each
person in each entity spends a lifetime trying to deepen his/or her single
charism. It takes that long to imbibe a spirit, spirituality, charism, whatever....So, that is where all the ???? keep popping up for me...Do not mean to be rude; just
profoundly confused with this.....

It's like I've said before, the Cloisterites have, as its basis, the spirituality of Blessed Emilie D'Oultremont, the foundress of the Society of Mary Reparatrix. The cenobitic Constitutions are modified from that of the Passionist nuns, and the "explanation" chapters are taken from the rules of Albert, Augustine, Benedict, Clare, and Colette, with even more advice from Sts Francis de Sales and Jane de Chantal. The eremetical rule, which I'm pulling together right now, has been culled from Blessed Emilie, Sts. Albert, Romuald, Bruno, Columba, and probably Francis (not sure yet).

Not incorporating CHARISMS, HolyHearts, but blending spiritualities. There is a huge difference. Many charisms can share the same spirituality. How many follow the rule of St Augustine, but have very different charisms?

We plan to have a library/repository for rules and constitutions which would span from the days of the Apostles to the present. Perhaps that is what you have confused.

All charisms and spiritualities come from God. I see no problem with using more than one source to help one live a particular path.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

Thanks for the clarification, Gemma; sorry I mixed up charisms w/spiritualities &
rules. True that they will follow one based on a number of fonts; but in founding
or re-founding (from among their members) how will they found something
according to a Rule & Spirituality they have not been formed in? That is probably
at the heart of my confusion....Was it the original mission of the Society of Mary
Reparatrix to live, work, pray, & sacrifice for the intention of building up other
communities & then establishing them? If it is a refounding of them, then they
were doing this before & dropped it after Vatican 2? It is not only the Cloisterites,
but especially the proposed communities (& their charisms) that I question. If
the Cloisterites are living their own life according to their Rule & Constitutions,
how do they suddenly decide to leave all that behind to found & form women in
an Institute in which they themselves are not formed? It is VERY difficult & rare
to cast off one Spirit & Spirituality & completely assume & imbibe another....I
cannot (in my limited vision) envision someone entering one place w/her whole
heart & soul, etc., in order to later leave that to go elsewhere....I think I am
missing a connection &/or some piece of information that will clear up this un-
certainty of mine.....

Excuse me Gemma, but there isa thing that I'm not able ti understand: how could you decide and program and organize all these matters about these communities while you are not living their same life?
I mean how could someone decide for the needs and solve of problems for other people if he doesn't experience the seme difficulties or problems?
It's very strange.

That was one of my concerns in my earlier post that wasn't answered or addressed. Who is doing the formation and teaching of these people who enter? You have never been a religious and have had not formation and as "ale" stated you won't be living the life. If these people were ever to live together in a convent, if they needed you they'd have to call your house and maybe your kids or husband answers the phone? Or what? Postulants and novices need intense and good formation to live the life and persevere and the even professed ones need on going training, help, direction, etc. There is no one to give it to.

And as another poster stated, many saints and blesseds have founded many monasteries or convents but they were of the same spirituality. You didn't see St. Teresa of Avila doing reformed contempative, cloistered Carmels and THEN do Carmel like the Carmel of the Most Sacred Heart in LA nursing/teaching sisters or the other branches of Carmel out there. Nor did St. Clare of Assisi branch out into nursing sisters or teaching or whatever. And these saints stayed within their spirituality - they didn't have a mish mash of 6 different rules or spiritualities.

When saints like St. Teresa of Avila reformed Carmel and open numerous foundations, she continually traveled from one to the other and back to the the original Carmels and stayed with them as prioress and as one of them, a professed religious, a Carmelite.

I can see starting a lay order perhaps but all this and some other strange things I've seen stated in your websites and posts are most disturbing and strange.

According to Rome, our charism can follow Blessed Emilie, but cannot reproduce exactly the SMRs. Therefore, we are following the reparation part, but to make the charism unique, we are also promoting the cloisters and their vocations, emerging charisms, and allowing the Holy Ghost to work through us to renew extinct or establish new charisms that will help meet today's world's needs.

The Sancta Regula states that the Cloisterites who are discerning the call to either renew extinct or found new charisms will have from after Vespers on Friday afternoon, to noon Sunday to meet, pray, and discern the paths they are to take. I'm not sure how much clearer that can be. It's in plain black and white. Once the group gets to a certain point--indicated by the Holy Ghost--they will petition the superior, and start following the path which that kind of group would follow.

The help will be there when the time comes. We haven't worked out everything as far as novitiate training is concerned. The Sister Canon Lawyer asked me if I wanted a clear cut path (which everyone else here is looking for, too, from the looks of these questions). She said the Holy Ghost doesn't do that. That's why every step has to be discerned, and appropriate people, etc., are revealed in due time. That includes whomever will do the training.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

There have been many lay founders. The founder is the lawgiver. God works through whomever will allow Him to do so. We are supposed to be the hands and feet of Christ.

Since the Cloisterites are starting out as hermits, I have a list of hermits with whom I have communicated, and I'm sure they'd help any way they could.

When the cenobitic community is founded--only God knows when that will be or if my husband would still be alive and kids at home. Both boys will be in high school next year. They could be on the other side of the world at college or work for all I know. It's all a very large walk of faith.

As for problems--what kind of problems? I should think I would have prepared them for physical problems, as well as finding good priests to help take care of the community. I fully expect that if a nun has to be taken to the hospital in the middle of the night, that I'd be called.

My first vocation cannot suffer during this process. However, there will be times when the two vocations have to meet, and I fully expect charitable support from my family. The aspirants are extremely respectful of my family time.

Blessings,
Gemma

"Strange and disturbing" -- I've been called weird my entire life because of my autism. I won't know what "neurotypicals" consider "normal" in situations like this. I have a communications problem, and I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I could. I've been through numerous tests, and all have proven me completely sane, with the exception of the Aspergers Autism and very severe ADD.

So, what's so strange and disturbing?

The rule of the Passionists was drawn from many spiritualities. A Passionist nun told me that when I was first putting the Sancta Regula together back in the late 1980s. In fact, the Sister Canon Lawyer told me that all rules draw from others, so they're all a "mish mash" of other spiritualities.

Blessings,
Gemma

I think Laudem Gloriae is referring to other new charisms that we know. The Sisters of Life were trained by a Dominican, the family of St. John the same, the DSMME's were founded by four professed sisters, the CFRs by professed friars, the new traditional Norbertine nuns travelled to several (if not all) existing Norbertine cloisters and did a canonical novitiate in an existing community.

As it appears, the status quo seems to be that formation by professed religious is the way to go, and considering the very intense, tender process that formation is, that sounds like a good thing to me. If you're so far in the starting-up process that you're planning to have your aspirants begin the life this calendar year (as you have stated), you should probably be very, very quick with taking care of their formation.

So they are all asking what I want to ask.

1. Who will take care of your aspirants? How will you be formed?
2. You didn't ask your bishop, probably, from the beginnings of this proposed order. Who is taking care of this sensitive case? You know the role of a bishop, right? And probably any spiritual director will recommend you to consult your bishop first.
3. How can you plan so many religious order? Blessed Giacomo Alberione didn't founded nor probably planned to found many orders at the same time. He founded the Society of Saint Paul first, then realizing that he needs to found another order, he founded the Daughters of Saint Paul.
4. How could you renew an order without being in the order?
5. How could you make plans for a religious order, as if it is already established? You say, the Congregation of the Miraculous Medal will renew, etc. etc.

Gemma, my tone here is not annoying. I am sincere, full of curiosity and I don't want to offend you. I am using imperfect Filipino English. I think they may appear offensive to others.

And Gemma, you have high school kids! How can you start founding with kids?

One has to look at the individual circumstances around the foundation.

The Sisters of Life were founded by a Cardinal who had others at his beck and call.

The Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist were, in fact, trained, but they also had to meet as a group to discuss their plans before initiating the project. Then, they had to find a bishop who would support them.

The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal--they call themselves a renewal, when in fact, they were a reform from within the Franciscan order. Again, a group of religious who would've needed to go off and meet together before leaving their respective communities to form the CFRs.

The Norbertines--very close to my heart, as in Cloister Outreach's early days, I had written Norbertine nuns in Europe, asking them to make an American foundation. Nobody would do it. I told Jesus, "You're probably going to have to ask five American women to do this." And so He did. That group went to the Buffalo OP nuns for their novitiate--slept in the monastery attic. They also traveled via van to various monasteries, learning about cottage industries. A few of them traveled to Europe to make the Visitation of the monasteries, which is a yearly requirement. I think they may have been invited to do so by the Norbertine Father Visitator.

It's like I said, I know that our aspirants need proper novitiate training. Our eremetical focus is so new, though, that I'm still researching how it's done.

When I stated October 10 of this year as being the "start" date--that was simply for gathering the community into a cenobitic setting to start living the rule in community. An existing group, who has "found their footing" or "gotten their sea legs" and has the entire paperwork package together, is one who can petition the bishop for recognition as a private association of the faithful with the intention of becoming an institute of religious life. (One also has to have a tax entity before making petition).

That may or may not happen on October 10. Our canonist has just asked for some documentation, which I have to go gather.

Blessings,
Gemma

1. We're still working on that. Like I've said, we're new to the eremetic path, so it's going to take some time.

2. Canon 605 doesn't apply in this case. That's for groups like Focolare, Opus Dei, etc. I am working with our canonist as to when to approach the bishop. Someone with a communications deficit like myself doesn't go barging in on a bishop, saying "I'm founding an order." I have to have the documents in hand, and be very prepared for questioning.

3. I see social problems, I pray over it. The solution comes to me as a charism. After my surgery last year, where I lost the physical ability to be a mother on Mother's Day weekend, I was so imbued with God's grace, and I understood that the social justice concerns would be taken care of through the CCMMs, and the individual charisms would be like ameobias splitting off of that congregation.

4. RENEWING an order means to bring a charism out of extinction. REFORMING an order comes from within. I found those definitions in the Catholic Encyclopedia. What is needed are the Rule and Constitutions, plus an horarium. Once those are in place, then the aspirants, convent, and remunerative work are to be put into place. They live the life, and when they are ready, they make petition to the bishop. Same process as before.

5. Where is there already a Congregation of Charity of the Miraculous Medal? Please show me. I think the answer to this question is in #3.

Cloister Outreach has business hours, believe it or not. I usually start working around 7am--after breakfast and prayers, and put everything away when the boys walk in the door from school. Since it's mostly sit-down work, I have to get up to do some household chores to keep from getting stiff. I live an eremetical life anyway, since gas prices are so high, I don't go anywhere except the gym (almost daily) and the grocery (twice weekly). I have a Franklin daily planner, plus a large wipe-off calendar so everyone can see what's going on. My prayer life is mostly during the hours that the family is not here. When they are here, taking care of them is my prayer.

My oldest son had honors English this past high school year, and he is registered for more honors classes this coming year. My other son has honors World History this coming year, plus track (he plans to be a sprinter), which will only be for a couple of months. I plan Cloister Outreach and the Cloisterite/CCMM activities around that.

Blessings,
Gemma

see, I think "cloister" is a full time thing. This is just my opinion, but I don't think a cloister could have "business hours". I respect what you are saying: that you are responsible to your family's time. But to consider a cloister a "day job" just feels to contradict the very life that your charism promotes and prays for.

As I said, that's just my opinion. I pray you'll find your true peace, Gemma.

Cloister Outreach is my apostolate. http://cloisters.tripod.com/

The hermits are in their own homes. Even a novice master has time off.

Once this gets going, and everyone sees how it works, I'm sure everyone will start to understand.

I have my true peace, Ambrose. Thank you.

Blessings,
Gemma

Gemma, I think this is an example of what the others are a little concerned about. As I understand it, the only person who can invite a community to make a foundation in a different country (or even a different diocese) is the bishop. Your zeal and passion for religious life is wonderful to see, but that doesn't really alter the fact that it's not your place to go issuing invitations regarding new foundations. Perhaps the Norbertine nuns did pray over your request and came to realise that God wanted them to remain in Europe? We have precious few religious over here compared to America. You are indirectly saying that they were unresponsive to the will of God, forcing you to tell Jesus to get five American women to begin the foundation.

You may just not be expressing your thoughts as you would like to express them. I know what it's like not to be able to make things sound right, particularly when I'm under stress and struggling to process information. I don't want to upset you or make you more flustered, but some of the authority that you try to exercise doesn't really seem to sit with your own beautiful vocation as a wife and mother.

As a single person (nearly 20 years ago) still discerning my own vocation, and Coordinator of the newly-founded Cloister Outreach, I started communicating with the Norbertine Fathers about bringing Norbertine Canonesses to America. They had been trying to get some of the European nuns to make a foundation, so I "added some weight to get the car up the icy hill," so to say, and wrote one monastery. The nuns from the Netherlands--Sint Katharinadaal (sp?)--wrote back a lovely letter, saying they were a vital community but were not in a position to make a new foundation. "It is a pity," said the prioress. I was getting the impression that the Norbertine Canonesses wanted to make an American foundation, but just weren't in a position to do so. The Norbertine prior told me he had been negotiating with the Polish Norberine Canonesses, but those talks didn't produce anything (obviously).

In a fit of. . . frustration, I guess is the word, I kinda threw my hands up and said out loud, "Well, Lord, if you're really wanting Norbertine Canonesses in America, I guess you're just going to have to pick out five American women to do it." I walked away from the situation and didn't think anything else of it. I don't remember how I learned that there was a community forming, but I nearly fell out of my chair when I learned that not too long after I said that--only a couple of years--five American women started studying with the Norbertine fathers in California, and had turned a condo near the priory into a convent.

It is common practice for orders established in America to invite another branch of said order to make a foundation near their own property. All that is needed is the local bishop's permission. In this case, there didn't need to be a bishop in the equation, because the prior in DePere, WI, is a bishop. (I hope I've remembered that correctly. If not, someone please correct that).

I say such things not to sound like an authority--"nihil sum" (I am nothing) is my personal motto--but to ENCOURAGE people in their prayers. I was raised Baptist, and I was always taught to share my faith to build up others in theirs. So, what's the problem???

Religious communities have been brought into countries with the assistance of layfolk. Happened all the time in the middle ages. In this case, if I had been talking with, for instance, the cloistered Conceptionistas of Portugal, I would advise them which dioceses didn't have cloistered nuns. They could, in turn, write that bishop, to see if he would accept their foundation. Such is one of the purposes of Cloister Outreach's website--to help bishops who don't have cloisters to find charisms not repped in the U.S.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

I have been trying not to get involved with this ridiculous thread, but I can't take it any longer. Upon whose authority does anyone speak with when they tell another member of the Church what they should or shouldn't be praying for, and insinuating that they are not somehow being faithful to their vocation? How exactly does anyone actually know that? If "others" don't agree with the apostolate someone believes they are called to, then don't get involved with it, but don't we have lives to live and vocations of our own to discern? If this person is being faithful to the Church and Her teachings, why not let them be? What are we so afraid of? If it's from God, it will grow, if not, it won't. I don't see any error being spread here, and many in the hierarchy can certainly be taken to task for that!! So, rather than attacking someone who is obviously trying to love God and do something good for His Church because we don't happen to agree with it, why not pray for them instead? May God have mercy upon us all.

Amen! Enough of this nonsense!

I haven't seen any attacks ( though I may be wrong here, sometimes its hard to read intent in writing) what I am seeing is good honest questions. Gemma seems to be answering them to my way of thinking The concern is valid though. If someone puts out ( via internet, forums etc) religious orders for young women to discern with, then questions have a right to be asked. I don''t know of any good mother (like me) who wouldn't tell their daughters to ask all the right (and very tough) questions. So I think asking who are you? How are you going to do this? Does the bishop know and if no, why not? Who is in charge? Who is going to teach me? To a mother's eye, these are all perfectly legitimate questions that Gemma is answering one by one.

I wouldn't think any differently even if it was Rosalind Moss' new community, Young women need to ask!

Very true about the good questions. It is good to ask questions, and these have been good questions. And Gemma has answered them very well too.

I believe though that the thread went from asking good questions and answering good questions to a definite insinuation that Gemma might not be being faithful to her vocation and comments that, I took, to be very authoritative in telling Gemma what she should or shouldn’t pray for and how she should live out her vocation as a wife and mother and, the vocation she believes God to be calling her too, as a foundress. I didn’t know anyone had the place to make those comments expect God and one’s superiors.

I found what inperpetuity said to be very well said. “If it's from God, it will grow, if not, it won't.”

There is a place for questions. Tough questions have to and should be asked. Tough questions, from my reading though (and sometimes it is difficult to read rightly what another intends to be saying), didn’t seem to be the only thing being posted here.

Thanks for the feedback on the responses I gave. I was clueless as to whether or not I was being effective. Some of the communication was offensive and intrusive, though, and where I was being accused of being a spiritual director, somone turned around and did the same to me. I did not think that charitable.

To update everyone: I have five who are definitely committed to starting hermitages, and I'm waiting to hear back from 8 others. As they ask questions, I will be getting answers from our canonist, and will be starting an FAQ page on the Cloisterite website.

I'm also trying to be as charitable as possible when I say this: If I am not faithful to inspiration, which I believe is from the Holy Ghost, and follow man and his opinions, which may not be from God, then do I not commit a form of idolatry?

When in doubt, pray. 'Tis the charitable thing to do.

Blessings,
Gemma

For the Latinists out there:
There's a saying in medicine:

primum non nocere.
Above all, do no harm.

A wise and experienced diocesan hermit , Sr. Laurel, ( member moniker SRLAUREL) has contributed in this forum in April, 2008, and her intelligent and informed, albeit few, posts should be consulted by anyone interested in learning more about life as a hermit of any description. I would think that the guidance of an experienced hermit to be invaluable to anyone considering this sort of life.

She is:

Sister Laurel M O'Neal
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

Her blog is: http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com/

There's also a quarterly about hermitage life, "Raven's Bread", http://www.op.org/ravensbread/
--which cost only $10.00/year, with issues available online at the website.

[quote name='Gemma' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:05 AM' post='1574961']
To update everyone: I have five who are definitely committed to starting hermitages, and I'm waiting to hear back from 8 others.

That is good news Gemma.

Are these five of an age where by the time they have gone through all the necessary preparations, they will still be young enough to be flexible?

Where will they receive their original formation?
The Angelic Doctor St Thomas, suggests that socia1 life, indeed community life, is a prerequisite.The Bishop usually requires that a potential hermit, experience formation in community, preferably a cloistered order. All of my canonical hermit friends were either first in a religious community from the git-go, or were asked to take their formation in one. Particularly the canonical novitiate year.
Formation for the eremetical life is an entire differant ballgame than it is for the cenobitic life. The responsibilities are quite differant as are the dangers that the vocation entails.

Will the hermits be considered diocesean? Will the vows be public or private?
Since a Hermit professed according to Canon 603 is not a member of a religious institute as such, it is important to be aware of the nature of a vow outside the context of a recognized religious institute.

Canon 1191 n.1 states: "A vow is a deliberate and free promise made to God concerning a possible and better good which must be fulfilled by reason of the virtue of religion." One must have reached the age of reason and not be otherwise forbidden by law from making a vow, and the vow must be free of"grave and unjust fear or fraud" Canon 1192 n.l is important because it defines public and personal vows: "A vow is public if it is accepted in the name of the Church by a legitimate superior; otherwise it is private." Since Canon 603 requires public profession "in the hands of the diocessm bishop", the bishop is the "legitimate superior" who receives the vow in the name of the Church. Althouugh the code does not explicitly mention dispensation from vows for a publicly professed Hermit, Canon 691 (which gives a diocesan bishop authority to dispense members of congregationss of diocesan right from vows) would presumably confer the same right in regard to Hermits.

What Rule or Plan of Life has been decided upon?
Canon 1194 is also important. It states: "A vow ceases when the time appointed for the fillfillment of its obligation has passed, when there is a substantial change in the matter promised or when the condition on which the vow depends or the purpose for which it was made no longer exists; it also ceases through dispensation or commutation." Here the "plan of life" mentioned in Canon 603 n.2 is extremely important because the vows made to the diocesan bishop will be based on living out that plan - not in an abstract profession of values. Thus, a Hermit undertakes a public and concrete commitment and lifestyle in a particular location under the authorily of the diocesan bishop.

Who will have ultimate responsibility for the members. (as in the buck stops here) For their physical and spiritual needs. Obviously is can't be you for a variety of reasons. Who will have the authority for final acceptance of these members.

Who is your Formator? Again obviously it can't be you.

Who is your Canonist?

What will their self supporting means be?

About how long do you think that these plans will sit in Rome before being given some sort of official status?

Thank you,

Many Blessings to you Gemma.
I have been following everything daily. It is so wonderful to see people open to the Way of the Lord. Gemma, please continue keeping your heart and soul open to His Wisdom. I am so happy for you. Please know that you and also those who are being called to live a life of a hermit will be in my daily prayers.
The Holy Spirit is truly blessing us with "New Renewals" in the church.

Pax et Bonum,
Br. Ed

[quote name='Gemma' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:05 AM' post='1574961']
Thanks for the feedback on the responses I gave. I was clueless as to whether ot not I have been effective.

Gemma, thank you for taking the time to respond to these questions.
I have one more......Will a copy of the eremitcal rule be available to anyone?

ps. congratulations on your sons achievements. You must be very proud of him.

+ Praise be Jesus!

I have been very busy at home getting the oldest settled into her new Carmelite Monastery - doing well all whom have asked! Thank you for the prayers, please keep them coming. The youngest (baby) is growing, and well, the rest are in their places, keeping all of us busy. I know I have PM's - which I will answer - but allow me to weigh in on this one quickly.

I cannot remember if I have spoken publicly or just in PM's that I am a former therapist, with a specialty in recovery from destructive cultic movements. I mention that only because my previous line of work (which has never left me!) comes in here.

There have been various comments and opinions being thrown about here, and many of them carry weight. The comments and opinions which ask for prayers and compassion are worthy as well, enough said.

Someone mentioned (forgive me for not going through each post line by line) Gemma being misleading. Another mentioned that if it is from God, it will grow.

From what I can see, and from what I have personally experienced, Gemma IS misleading. At this point, Gemma is NOT a Foundress of an Order or a Congregation. Gemma hopes to be. She has founded the Cloisterite Outreach so in that sense, YES, she is a FOUNDRESS. But of a religious order, no. Yes, she has conceived of the idea and in that sense, she has given birth to something which may in fact take hold at some point and grow into fruition. Certainly, we do not want to rob her of her dreams and hopes, and for that, yes, let us continue to pray that she will find great strength, support, encouragement and help. Let us ask the Lord to bless her desires and bring them to Holy Mother Church, for the greater glory of God and His children.

That being said, as another Phatmasser has already pointed out, this is a forum (phorum) that is used for information gathering, support, prayer, etc. This is not the appropriate place to advertise or attempt to gather new recruits to something that is not yet recognized as valid. Whomever said this is misleading is correct. A person without adequate resources could easily find herself wasting time, hoping to belong to one of the orders that Gemma has listed on her website - not fully realizing that these are imaginary orders; still in the process of conception. They certainly seem to be real to Gemma, but to one whom doesn't know better, it is difficult to tell.

Gemma, when you have your ducks in a row, so to speak, and approval from the Bishop and Cardinal, then begin your process of recruitment.

At this point, you have so many listed, with such details - that yes, it is easy to see how this could be perceived as disturbing. You must certainly recognize that how a Mother, with two big children, living with autism, inventing orders - including habits, spiritualities, schedules, and different charisms, without the direct input of a recognized Church official comes across. One of my precious children was born with Down's Syndrome, and I recognize the challenges one faces in dealing with a difference. All the more reason, especially as you have already explained, it affects your ability to communicate, you need to be formally recognized.

As for...if it is from God, it will grow, I must take issue with that. Sadly, in our world, we have many things that our Creater has allowed to grow that have not been blessed by Him. In fact, many things have been fostered within the confines of the Church Herself. I see no need to list any here, but sadly, I have no doubt many of you can think of some on your own. We have been blessed with Free Will, and this is an example. Each Diocese has a Vicar of Religious and it is his/her job to guide and support communities - amongst other things. Need I mention that often (as has been discussed!) a community needs correction, watching and/or help? The Church is very careful in establishing new communities, and with good reason. And naturally, just because an Order wears a habit does not mean they are solid, strong or in good standing. (Look at the many that are so sadly in schism that fit that description.)

This thread has been good in that opinions and thoughts have been expressed politely and in charity. Critical thinking is one of the hallmarks of our great Faith, and we are not a destructive cult, which prohibits questioning and accepts only black/white dogma. Gemma, I do commend you for answering and keeping a cool head, which must be hard. You will be under scrutiny, as you most surely know, if you move forward.

No, you have not asked for advice, but I will give it anyway. There would be no questions, no objections or suspicions if you were under the authority of the Church proper and were working in tandem with Her. Anybody can create a website and imagine monasteries, habits and spiritualities. Until you are recognized as a legitimate and solid individual, with a first and last name, with a mailing address, who has received appropriate approval, you will be under suspicion. At this point, you are the Great Oz, sitting behind a keyboard. It IS disturbing and most unsavory.

In helping my daughter find the right community for her life as a cloistered nun, we visited many, many Monasteries across the country. Many of them are in need of new vocations, and do not have the resources to create beautiful websites or answer their mail (or email) in the most timely of ways. I cannot help but wish (and pray) that you would use your obvious talents and spirited imagination to support and hold many of these existing Monasteries.

Additionally, there are many, many "new" communities that are in the process of being established, with women and men living in community, working out their Rule, their Spirit, their life. These communities, albeit in the beginning stages, are valid and honest about their situation, and those who are in the process of "founding" them (as another poster indicated) are living the life themselves. This is very different than the creation of "proposed" communities, created via the internet.

Like another poster, I am quite alarmed that a moderator has not acted on this. I have had links removed that offer further clarification on real points, and yet, this remains. The next time we should see an "Update" on this subject is when Gemma receives some official status and comes out from behind the curtain. Until then, this must be recognized as a fictitious situation. Sad, but true.

Gemma, I will continue to pray for you. May you find a Bishop that will guide you.

TradMom

Excellent response, TradMom!