Well Pham I've considered bringing up this topic for some time but finally decided to do it. Last year i was discerning with a community and one of the things they told me was that if i wanted to enter the community I would have to lose weight. Now, I understand the point of this because they can't be responsible for say, a million dollar plus quadruple bipass surgery. But at the same time, thin people have those too.
Once on EWTN I saw a young woman who entered OLAM and she was about my size, very stout. It was awesome to see her slowly shrink over time.
My question is this, since someone would lose weight while living the religious life(most likely), should communities make this an absolute bar against entering.
I hate (don't hate, appreciate) to even ask it, but is it possible that there is some bias there (if not by one community specifically then perhaps in general)? I mean there have been many fat saints, most notably of course, St. Thomas Aquinas.
Your thoughts please!!
Love!

When I was discerning, some communities did makean issue of it, if one was carrying excess weight, under the banner of concern for good health. Other communities would just ask about health and I would always say that I struggle with my weight but that I am active and healthy, and some communities would leave it at that or offer that their sisters were encouraged to observe healthy diet or exercise and would be supportive that way. One poor clare abbess just crassly told me to come back after losing weight- she was very mean (not unlike most people in the US who feel that it is quite justified for thenm to make mean, derogatory remarks to fat people. I think it's the last acceptable bigotry).

So, like many other areas, it varied from community to community, in my experience. I was looking mostly at contemplative communities and so I wondered about how I would be able to exercise and follow a weight loss diet while in community. It seemed like it might be good to lose some of it before entering. I was almost getting to the point where I would want to make sure that the monastery had a treadmill somewhere in the house!

I'm PMing you also.

Pax et bonum-
Graciela

Oh, I thought this was going to be about something else...

Oh, I thought this was going to be about something else...

Yes, it is the last allowed bigotry. I'm someone who was very large at one time, and has lost a lot of weight. It's one of the hardest things I've ever faced in my life. There is a perception that if you are overweight, you aren't professional. When you are overweight, you wear your weakness on the outside. A religious vocation is hard enough, so they may feel that the stress may lead to more weight gain. They may feel like you're entering because you can't get a date because you're overweight. They may have concerns about added medical expenses. They may be afraid that they won't be able to get insurance on you, or it will be more expensive. There are a multitude of potential reasons why they may turn you down about your weight. What you need to know is that you can conquer the weight if you are willing to change how you view and use food. You can also continue to look around for an order that doesn't care. Being turned down never feels good.

One nun I know of lost weight when she entered the monastery because she was eating on a regular schedule and was offered a variety of foods.

Our proposed charisms will have gyms, and every religious will have mandatory work-out times. Water is never to be restricted as either a penance or a punishment. "Mega mugs" will be brought to the convent with the postulant.

One of the best treatments for depression is regular workouts and additional protein (coming primarily from the protein smoothies they offer at most gyms).

Of course, check with one's physician before starting any kind of routine. An underactive thyroid can cause obesity.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

I was corresponding once with a Poor Clare abbess who was very nice and encouraging until I sent her a photo then made a rude comment about my weight.
I had fairly serious illness at the end of February and after that decided to take my health more seriously. Since then I've lost forty pounds. I can already tell a huge difference in my energy level and health ( I don't get sick as often).

edit: Please note-We are NOT bashing Poor Clare Abbesses! We love them!!

I've noticed with those communties who keep blogs or show their new entrants that if a woman is overweight when she enters, she won't be overweight for long. The regulation - and probably the lack of snacking opportunities etc seems to make the weight shed pretty quickly.

Considering some of our chubby saints and popes I think it's a mistake to judge a candidate by her size...but then again, yes, it IS the last acceptable prejudice.

Glad you brought this one up, and yep there is a very big prejudice about weight. It is not only in society, but can be brought up rather nastily in communities. I have heard some rather nasty remarks myself made by religious. It will be a community by community search for a place that will accept you, or at least give you a try. Not to pick on any community, but some are quite bad about allowing one to even apply to an aspirancy if the least bit heavy. And most will loose weight when following the life for any time, no snacking, no napping the day away. Certainly one must be concerned about the health status of an applicant, but some want only a perfect specimen(and I mean perfect in every way)

St. Thomas Aquinas, I thought, was very bulky and kinda chubby. I didn't think he was so much "fat" and "big".


I figured most sisters would reduce in size, however, I have known several "round" sisters in my day. They're precious as can be... but it does make me question just how true it would be in general that a girl would lose weight after entering.

I think it makes sense to be healthy when you enter. I do not, however, think it makes sense to ask every girl who enters to be a certain size.

Just wanted to tell you that I think that's really really cool, Gemma.

I can see how weight is a concern ( both for being overweight and underweight)

Blood pressure, heart problems, mobility, energy, diabetes,..all of those are affected by eating habits and being overweight. Would my mom still be here if she had watched what she ate? More than likely. She was a diabetic who was careless-the diabetes probably would have been controlled without insulin if she had just opted for a better and healthier lifestyle. Instead Ilost her way too young.

So as crass and mean as it sounds coming from these Sisters, all they want is for you to be your best so you can give God your best.

It's not about dieting-forget that! Don't even look at the scales ( put them away!) Slowly change your eating habits and your health habits. Do allow yourself yummy stuff-mine was chocolate but not too much. Re-arrange your eating times so you don't snack at night. Grab fruit instead of the chips, take that morning walk around the block with Fido. Push away from the computer and get involved with others. Most of all figure out why you emotionally eat/binge ( **if that's what any of you do. This part is the hardest)

Even though I'm not considering a religious vocation I lost 60 pounds and I am in my mid-40s so I know others here can do it! (waving my pom-poms)

St. Thomas Aquinas was called "The Dumb Ox", and not just for his quiet nature.

I feel the same about people being overweight and having a vocation and older vocations. If a person really has a vocation, then God already has a place for them.
Of course when I speak of being overweight I'm NOT talking about someone who cant function on a daily basis or someone even who is in denial about their situation (to me that would raise A LOT of red flags).

Ah, a subject dear to my heart, as it is in my medical field and also (too) close to my own weight problem. I am at the top of the ‘overweight’ category, nuzzling (too) close to the OBESE category! AAugh!!.

Having gotten this off my expanding chest, I have noticed that a number of the ‘older’ vocations in the so-called ‘updated’ communities are obese, some morbidly obese ; morbid obesity has a definition, a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more in the presence of significant co-morbidities.

The concept and definition of BMI is here:

http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

This is a very useful website with the BMI tables and other useful links. Note that there is a RANGE of normal weight and overweight to allow for age and different body types.

There is no question that it’s dangerous to be obese. Yes, there really is an increased incidence of the co-morbidities, or diseases related to obesity, such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, asthma, degenerative joint disease, reflux--the list goes on and on, enough to give any mother superior pause.

If I were evaluating a candidate, I think that I would mention this issue and what it means to our community and inquire whether the potential candidate has made serious attempts at weight loss. Not to do so would imply to me poor self control, which is essential in a religious.

Having said this, obese women appear to be entering religious life, at least some communities. However, I have noticed for some time now that NO ONE in the Nashville Dominicans and the DMME is obese and that no one in many of the structured -cloistered -habited -communities, of the sort that Phatmassers love, is obese, either.

I personally think that it would be tough to enter obese and have to restrict the food along with all the other adjustments to monastery life. While one would be busy, one would also be at prayer, listening to one's stomach. Getting at least some of the weight off beforehand might also help one get into a desired community. There is also the problem of learning to control one's weight, snacks, portions and desserts before entering, in that many communities might turn out to have access to a high-calorie diet with a lot of feast-day/birthday/anniversary cakes and treats, and, if they do a lot of hosting or retreats, bake and serve a lot of home-baked desserts and snacks of the type that I, for one, find very hard to resist.

One way to search might be in the community photos, to see if there are any obese members. One of my favorite communities, the Poor Clares of Greenville, SC, who have just built a new monastery ( I notice that you’ve talked to a Poor Clare abbess, so you might be interested) contains several members who are--er--chunky, and that they have addressed this problem with exercise machines donated to them! (They have a nice video showing them working out and lots of pix on the website). They are a ‘modernized’ community, but appear to be devoted and no nonsense and you might give them a look. They also have postulants.

I'm not sure how... realistic? the concept of BMI is... Take myself for an example. I'm an athlete, so I train and lift weights and play sports all year round. I'm 5'2 and 160lbs. Which puts me at the high end of the over-weight almost obese end of the scale. Now, I could probably loose a bit around the middle section, but honestly, I don't have all that much fat on me. (Take a look at my profile picture, I'm a bit over-weight but no where near obese). It's mostly muscle. And I'm in good shape. I can squat twice my weight and can run a mile in less than 9 minutes. Yet, BMI tells me I'm nearing obesity.

As for communities judging a candidate based off of weight alone... I don't know. Yes, living a healthy life-style is important, but so is responding to God's call. People are different sizes, plain and simple. So long as a person is able to keep the daily routine of the community and does not pose extraordinary health problems on the community, I don't understand what the problem would be. I can see perhaps asking an over-weight or obese candidate to be able to stick to a certain meal-schedule/routine that is similar to the communities for a few months before entering, just so the community and the candidate can discern whether or not the candidate possess the self-control and will-power to live the life-style that may otherwise be difficult for someone of their weight. But if that pans out, I don't think it should be a barring factor. I think communities may need to take some extra discerning time with an over-weight or obese candidate for the above reasons, but I do not think it should be a reason to completely dismiss a candidate.

When I went to visit the Poor Clares six years ago...I was heavier than I am now and nothing was said to me about it...for which I was grateful...I figured that since they eat mostly a vegetarian diet...I would be able to lose weight for that reason alone.

Thank ya'll, Ireally appreciate all your input. I am on a program of healthy eating (NOT a diet). I have been ever since I was ill in February. FOr me, at this point, having the desire, knowledge, skills and willpower to eat healthily is not an issue. I know what to eat, how much to eat, how often to eat, and I have the strong desire to continue doing so. Also importantly, I've discussed my eating program with many family and friends, so if I were to go back now, I would definitely be held accountable.
THe thing is, I've always been a sedentary person(aside from my job), especially since I'm such an avid reader. Now that I'm strong in my eating habits, I plan to begin some sort of structured excercise program. I havn't decided exactly what yet, I'll probably just start with walking,which is very convenient for me, and then progress from there.
I do understand that serious health issue are strongly correllated with obesity,DUH!
While I am not an athlete like Teresabenedicta, I am fairly active at work, do lots of lifting, so its not like I'm using a walker or something.

Since you are an avid reader, you could try working out on a stationary bike. I love reading too, and I used to be extremely overwieght (borderline obese). Then I started using a stationary bike so I could read while I exercised. I lost 60lbs doing that.

Rachel

I love you all.

that's neat. i never even thought of that.

What a great topic and I am really happy to see that, though we all have a somewhat varied opinion, it has been done with real caring for each others opinions without alot of backbiting. Amen to that, and hopefully we can continue in that vein.

I am soon to acquire a treadmill. I will either read while I walk, or pop in an inspiratinal movie, like In This House of Brede!
I changed my avatar- I thought it was appropriate!

Elliptical machines are miracle workers, they are really good workouts, and it is very easy to stay on there for the length of a movie. I used to watch entire seasons on America's Next Top Model while working out on the treadmill.

I've also thought about getting an exercise trampoline. Hehe.

I didn't know they'd made a movie of the book! Is it worth it? I mean, is the movie even close to the book? Does it do the story line justice? Do tell!


I never got the hang of the elliptical machine. Call me crazy... I'm pretty sure I'm the only person I know who can't seem to get the hang of the suckers.

The movie is different from the book, but it is still a GREAT movie, especially a vocation type movie. I love it because it shows that nuns are human without making them out to be knife wielding maniacs.
Phillipa Talbot____>
I've never even tried an elliptical machine.

I have this movie its great, just got abit confused about the young gal that comes in and is still in love with a boyfriend????
Anyway, maybe I watch it again tonight.

One thing that is suprising since I've lost some weight is the difference in energy level. I have A LOT more energy now.

i think its more to do with your reserve energy. if im correct, being overweight exhausts you like three times as fast as you would normally exhaust. but i could be wrong.. and usually am... haha!

Im not a light person, i am 5'8", and weigh 325lbs. I was accepted and nothing was said of my weight. However, once i was established they asked me to go see a weight counseler. Now I have to hold myself accountable. The community helps me alot. I eat what i need, and only that. No soda, no carbinated drinks of any kind. I have tried to exercise at the gym in Seton Hall University where i go to school, but some of the people who go there need a lesson on modesty. The gym became a distraction so I no longer go there, but i should go back because I need do get back in to a routine, and it is not easy to lose weight if there is no routine. My goal is to lose 100lbs, in three years. Pray for me!

IrishS-I lost twice that much in 6 years, so your goal is obviously reasonable. The Center for Human Nutrition at the University of Colorado has the best information. They maintain a weight loss registry where anyone who has lost at least 30 pounds and kept it off for at least a year, can register and they collect information about how they did it. Most people on the register have actually lost 100 lbs. and kept it off for 3 years. 3 years is the the goal because they have found that once you keep it off for 3 years, it gets much easier to not regain. They have a listing of the 7 habits of highly effective weight loss maintainers, that has been very helpful to me.

THANKS!!!

I weigh 170 pounds (if the converter is right). I'm insanely proud of that. This academical year is the first year that I've consistently been above 155 pounds! Yay!

My metabolism is such that it's rather clear I'm not called to a community like the Benedictines of Mary, Queen of Apostles - if I don't get three meals a day, three GOOD meals, I faint. Well, first I get extremely cranky and THEN I faint. It's not gluttony, it's how I'm made, and I can't do anything about it (although it might change when I'm middle-aged).

So monastic fasting, Poor Clares, Carthusians, it's all not for me. I used to feel like a failure over that, but later I realised that we've already had St. Catherine of Siena and although having a few other saints like her in our times wouldn't hurt at all, I don't have to be one of them! (St. Catharina "subsisted on Eucharistic foods alone for long periods of time", that is, she was on a hosts-only diet.)

As for communities turning you down because of your weight: that's bad. They can turn you down for the underlying reasons, true. If you have a health problem that makes you obese, that could be a reason, and if it's because you can't control yourself when it comes to food, that's a good reason, too. But the weight itself is NOT a reason: that would be purely aesthetic, and I do hope we can expect better from nuns!

It's also well-known that obesity gives you a higher risk on certain diseases, but that's statistics. The true reason behind that is an unhealthy diet and lack of exercise. If you're overweight despite eating well and exercising, you're probably healthier than me with my BMI of 20! So if the convent provides healthy food and gives you an opportunity to work out (you might not even need a treadmill - if you see how some sisters have to fly about to keep on schedule!), you don't have a health deficit even if you're overweight.

(Okay, so I used a lot of can'ts and shouldn'ts here - it's not like I presume I can or should tell convents what to do. Really, I wouldn't dare - sincere lack of wisdom here! But I can get so mad if people tell my roommate off for having a normal meal or stare at my mum's plate. Raah.)

I know of a woman who entered (I haven't talked to her for awhile so I hope she still has!) a wonderful full habited Visitation and before she did she told me they were letting her bring her Total Gym with her to used 30 mins or so everyday! Not just to be Ms. Fitness, to keep her figure or for some vain reason but it helped her stay loose, functional everyday - without it she has a very hard time gettting around.

Obviously, most orders aren't going to let you do that but it's nice this Visitation offered it as it was medically necessary.

Interesting ? that I am sorry you have to be in the position to deal w/...real bummer...nevertheless I have 2 thoughts:

1) some ppl gain weight when the enter religious life (although usually not at first)
...depends on many things of course

2) www.crossfit.com

Good point about the BMI. Really BMI is a load of malarky but to some small degree it can be vaguely useful. But, one knows if they are overweight or not. You don't need a scale, mirror or anything else to tell. We know how we feel, how we felt when we were a child running around the yard, and we can tell how our clothes fit, and what size other ppl our height are. Also, what the BMI scale now considers overweight use to be much closer to the category of obese only some 40 years ago.

Btw - if you can full squat 2x's ur bodyweight then I am impressed!




Losing weight because you are not eating meat....Although it's just not true, at least provide some info. so you don't deceive ppl.

I noticed several ppl who mentioned how much fat they lost. Really cool to hear!

Tim Russert’s untimely death had led to a lot of discussion of risk for heart disease in the media, including a discussion of BMI and waist measurement.

The BMI is widely regarded as a reliable indicator of overweight and obesity. For each height, there is a considerable range of normal, overweight and obese categories, which should embrace all ages, body types and relative amounts of muscle.

People who might consider themselves exceptions to the BMI categories should use the equally reliable waist index. A woman’s risk of heart disease rises when her waist exceeds 35 inches, regardless of BMI, age, weight, or muscle mass. A rough indicator of optimal waist circumference is that her waist in inches be half her height in inches. The waist measurement is important because it reflects the accumulation of abdominal fat, which has been found to correlate highly with heart disease.

A person’s strength has nothing to do with heart health. An obese young person may not have any symptoms in youth, but soon the limitations and dangers present themselves--diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol and arthritis, risk of heart disease and stroke.

I am frankly surprised that religious orders accept persons who are obese, especially morbidly obese, but feel that they are trading off having a new member now versus paying for the health problems later. This may turn out to be a very expensive decision.

It must be a relief to know that thin people never get sick or have health problems.

Yeah, my 54 year old cousin died two weeks ago. She was 6 foot tall and maybe weighed 110 lbs. soaking wet. My short stout mom has outlived both her younger, taller, and very slim sisters by a decade and counting. I had a nutritionist tell me once that the diet I am on, is the diet everyone should be. Being overweight just made me go on it younger than other people might. Slender people can sometimes overlook the need for proper nutrition.

Might I ask what diet you are on?

I really love this topic, not only because I have struggled with my own weight for most of my life, but because it is something that is so human. I feel as if people, in focusing on the spiritual preparations to enter religious life (which is, of course, important) sometimes forget that they take their very human selves into the convent with them. And this human self includes things like weight issues, physical insecurities, health problems, etc. It's not as if it all ceases because one is now called Sister or Father or Brother.

Just my oho.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren

There are worse factors then merely weight that affect ones longevity and usefulness. Several, like genetics, you have no control over. I am overweight. I am 54. I am in relativity good health, good enought to go out each day and work as a nurse on a very busy unit. I am not keeling over yet, nor unproductive, so be very careful of judging others.
And there is definetly some sex discrimination going on....an obese man is allowed to enter the seminary, and I don't hear a discussion of it. Oh heck, all men have beer bellies....sure. A woman is always expected to be rail thin.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

I might also add that men don't have the same problems as women when seeking to enter religious community later in life. Yes, some seminaries/orders are starting to have age limits for men, but I've not seen anything close to the 33 or 35 year old limits I see for many women's communities. They may be out there but I've not seen them. For heaven's sake, I've seen 1 or 2 communities for women with a 29 year old age limit......Jesus Himself would have been too old for these folks.

When I think that it is women imposing this kind of (at least, borderline) discrimination on other women, I shudder. How sad that God's own daughters treat each other so shabbily and call it by various terms such as "discernment", "wisdom" and my personal favorite when we want to reject someone, "it is/isn't God's will that you be accepted to do this/that".

Now please don't all go off on me at once. I'm not saying that we ought not to seek the will of God, and I'm not saying that God's will is not "knowable" - I'm just saying that sometimes, some of us USE the term "will of God" as and excuse or reason to accept/reject a certain thing when really it's about a personal preference, choice, prejudice or even a very LEGITIMATE, but human, psychological, or perhaps even institutional reason/decision for a particular action. Sometimes we ought to leave the "will of God" out of it and start saying things like "We/I don't like it, don't want it, don't think it's a good idea", "don't trust it", "have determined it's not right for us" etc etc etc. In my opinion we could accept responsibility for a lot more of the "hard stuff" than we generally do.

I have no issue with a community encouraging a person (male or female) to a more healthy balanced lifestyle - one might even say it's an encouragement to lay aside the sin of gluttony (which it may be for some people)....but let's be fair about it. Weight can be as big a problem for men as it is for women but we all know that we have been culturally tuned to manifest unequal attitudes/treaments when it comes to women and weight. It comes through quite loud and clear in what some communities have said to women who approached them for discernment.

There is a feminism that is properly ordered and in line with the teaching of the Chruch - but sometimes it seems to me, just not being upheld.

To IrishSalesian with the problem of immodest gym-mates--How long is the gym open? I know some gyms open very, very early so maybe there's a time you can go with no one there. Maybe the desk clerks know?

BMI works better for non-athletes, because muscle weighs more than fat. And it's more of a guideline for risk-stratification and the like than a set in stone sort of scale.




That's fantastic!
Really, how you feel is more important than the number on the scale.
I just graduated with a degree in exercise science so hearing this stuff makes me really happy.

Try getting a pedometer. I think 10,000 steps equals approximately five miles. Then you can sort of incorporate it into your day, already and do things like park farther away and always take the steps instead of an elevator. Little steps are the best way to make changes, because they're not overwhelming and they add up!


I don't know exact ratios like that but you're correct in the idea...
I know it takes more energy just to do the basics, because you're carrying around that much extra weight, plus its harder to breath, plus it elevates blood pressure and the blood has a whole lot further to travel. I was told by a physical therapist that for obese people, daily routines max them out, so if they get sick and can't move for a while, they have a lot harder time recovering, too.



Interesting fact: Researchers now believe that you need some fat on your heart. There have been deaths of world-class athletes that no one could explain, but one of the things that was noticed was that they lacked the streaks of fat on their heart that most people have.
Moderation is the key!


In my exercise science program, we had some of the nuns (I went to a Catholic university that Benedictines had started) in our personal exercise programs (basically we were practicing being personal trainers). It was really odd doing the tests on them, because you had to have them take off their shirts for some (like ECG and skin-fold testing). And for me, it was really hard to ask a nun to take off her shirt, especially when my partner helping with the testing was a guy...

Alycin-I'm on a modified version of the Mediterranean diet. Whole grains, lots of fruits and vegetables, lean proteins like salmon and chicken breast, olive oil (in moderation), and measured in calories. I add in a lot of soy products that the Greeks probably wouldn't normally. I have a bad case of portion distortion, and can only make it work if I measure everything and write it down. There's a woman I saw on TV once who at the time was a diet guru to the stars. She had been heavy in the 50's, but had lost the weight, and more importantly, kept it off for decades. She still wrote everything down that she ate. Journaling is important. If your problem is spending, writing down where you spend every penny works, for me it's food. I also have to exercise. With my disabilities, about all I can do is walk or water aerobics. Movement is very important for me. I wish I could lose the weight I have left quicker, but I have to be patient and do it slowly. I didn't put it on overnight, and can't take it off quick either.

Thanks.

Well, women entering the non-habited OSB's aren't expected to be thin, judging from recent pix of the Cottonwood ID OSB's, who have had a number of professions in recent years, and the OSB's of OL of Grace in Beechgrove, IN, who had 4 final profession's recently and two were thin and two--weren't. As a matter of fact, one thing I've noticed about women entering religious life in recent years, albeit not entering the Collettines, have NOT been 'thin'--at all. However, when I look at the Nashville OP's and the DMME's, some look 'chunky' but none is fat--so for them a reasonable body weight may be a requirement. Do any of the discerners have info on who brings up the weight issue and who doesn't?

Sorry, I don't make the rules. The statistics show that obese individuals have many more serious health problems earlier. There is an epidemic of obesity in this country and health care providers and people in public health are frantically trying to bring it under control. People in their 30's are developing diabetes, hypertension and heart disease at unprecedented rates.

I have just as much trouble as every one else, but I'm a lot older. When I was young, long ago, I was a lot thinner than now, --and now I'm in the upper range of my overweight BMI, flirting with OBESE--aaugh!!!--and I can tell you that it just gets harder with age. Just do what works. I'm now doing salsaerobics and trying to survive from one week to the next--ha!

Very useful information and congratulations on your weight loss!! Very impressive!!

Also congratulations on your recently published book!!

It's my impression that the traditional habited cloistered groups who are getting applicants are the ones who can afford to lower the age limit. It would be kinder and I think more accurate for them to say that they prefer a younger vocation because in their experience the younger vocations have worked out better than the later ones. It's hard to argue with that. To say that it's God's will is presuming a lot , when another monastery down the road may have reached a very different conclusion.