If time were everlasting, we would never arrive at any given point; it would have taken forever for then to turn into now. Therefore we can conclude that time had a beginning.

If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning there was only eternity; yet there would be no "prior to" time since time is required for a given point of beginning to be determined.

This leads us to a logical dilemma.

If eternity exists beyond the history of time, then eternity is motionlessness, for eternity has no ability (by definition) for "then" to become "now" or for "this" to become "that". Eternity is stillness. It precludes action since action requires a point at which the action was not that may arbitrated from a point at which the action is. There are no points in eternity, only an infinite "now". But if this is true, how could time "begin" at all?

So we are left with a paradox. It seems impossible that we are here, either according to the problem of everlasting time or the subsequent problem of eternity. Yet we are here. We believe that God is eternal and that, ontologically, God is Truth (and therefore "reasonable"). Therefore, even if we are not capable of fully understanding God as he truly is, we should be able to at least provide reasonable explanations for apparent problems or contradictions.

Obviously this problem of time and eternity does not pose a threat to God's existence anymore than it poses a threat to our own existence; indeed, the problem itself seems to suggest that the only answer could be God. But that does not solve the dilemma.

If God is eternal and eternity is timeless then how could there be, within eternity, a point at which time was not and a point at which it was?

Philosophically inclined fellows, please put your thinking caps on...

For one, there is no "within eternity" because it implies the impossible: that there's anything outside of eternity. There are no boundaries on eternity.

Second, there is no such thing as a "point" at which time did not exist. That's logically impossible. If any such point exists, it would logically become part of time because the definition of time is this series of sequential "points" from beginning to end, which we believe God created.

I believe that Boethius answered this well. His difficulty was that he questioned whether or not we had free will if God "foreknows" all that we will do. His answer was that God exists in the eternal present, where he can see all time at once. As far as the difficulty with the beginning of time, since God created ex nihilo, when creation material creation began, time began. The problem of understanding an unmoving eternity vs. the moving universe we experience can be addressed by the fact that creation is still happening by the sustaining action of God.

That's a start anyways...

***very tempted to respond*** waiting for L_D

In Eastern Christian theology God is beyond eternity, just as He is infinitely beyond the infinite. I recommend reading St. Gregory of Nyssa's Seventh Homily on Ecclesiastes, because he addresses this issue in that homily.

So even eternity is created by God?

*puts on his thinking hat - it kinda looks like a cowboy hat but its a lot cooler*


God is eternal - yes
God resides thus in eternity - yes

We, in our earthly existence, are not currently residing in eternity. Eternity, as you alluted, exists outside of time. Thus eternity is not 'an infinite amount of time' but rather 'the complete absence of time' hence why things cannot change within eternity. Change is simply an effect of time, or one can argue time is an effect of change (the two are intimately linked). This of course is fully consistent with Catholic doctrine which states that once we have died, we will reside in an eternal unchanging state (save for purgatory which is not eternal, but temporal).

This is also consistent within the writtings of the saints, including one of my favorites-Saint Augustine. Saint Augustine writes in his famous 'Confessions' a very accurate understanding of time versus eternity - in truth the brilliance of the man is demonstrated as such in this single writting that it is my own opinion that given the mathematical tools he would have been able to enact the laws of relativity with flawless precision.

*takes off cap, reaches for his coffee*

*puts thinking cap on*

I believe you are mistaken, or the thought is somewhat incomplete.

Time is intimately defined by change (there can be no change without time, and no time without change). Thus time is sequential as change is sequential.

I believe you state 'there cannot be a point IN TIME at which time did not exist. There can be however, a state in existence which remains unaffected by time and this state of course, is eternity - outside of time, outside of change, not within time. This can be expressed in many ways but the one invariable truth is that eternity is that which is not affected by time, or that lies outside of time.

This poses the question; eternity is state of being or a place?
I believe it is a state, for one can be within the world as we live it without being affected by the time in which it lies - hence God can affect the owrld, be part of the world, but remains true to his eternal state. He is in the world, but remains outside of time's effects. On this particular matter i owuld be very interested in reading comments from those amongst you who know mroe than I (and I know there's plenty of you out there!).

*takes off thinking cap, reaches for his coffee*

Time was created by God, eternity is the state in which god resides and thus always existed as God always existed.

place, no. eternity is a quality of the immaterial realm, so calling it a place falls short imo. state? eeehh, maybe, seems a bit closer

Time and Eternity in the Greek Fathers: A Christian Approach to the Philosophy of Time

Hmm... given the two choices, it must be an incomplete thought...



What I was saying is simply that time is the series of these "points." We can't talk about some "point" in eternity because there's no such thing. It would be more accurate to describe eternity as a state of being, but I wouldn't even say that, as explained here:



I'm not sure that eternity must be either of these. Of course, this all depends on your definition of a "state of being" and whether it leaves room for eternity, but my thought is states of being and places both are elements of Creation and thus eternity is neither. Eternity, like God, simply is. Of course, God is also a personal and loving being, but he did not create eternity any more than he created infinity. Both are simply concepts that belong more to philosophy than science since they cannot be studied and observed.

I've been reading this article published back in 1994-95 (in two parts) titled Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God that touches on many of the ideas we're talking about here. Makes me want to read "A Brief History in Time." Nothing like some light summer reading, eh?

Can it be possible that eternity does not exist at all since it is a concept of negation; it is the absence of time?

Like darkness is the absence of light but does not exist as such.

A similar problem with this, and maybe Did's post will help resolve this. If God is 'within' eternity, at what point did God begin creating the world. Obviously there is a problem here; In a timeless eternity we have creation beginning.

Unless of course God is 'always' creating.

There was not point in time when God created the world - THERE IS NO TIME IN ETERNITY.

As God created the world, time began.

I find this very difficult for my mortal mind to visualize.

I get that there is no time in eternity. I get that.

Time is a measurement of change. Thus there is no change in eternity. If there is no change in eternity, how does God "start" creating the world from eternity? Thats the question.

There was no start nor end. He always has, always will and is still creawting the world.

I suppose as per Apo's link, I am in the 'eternalism' school of thought.

Time is a series of dots joined one to the other, but from the eternal stand point, all the dots are happening at once so that the history of the world as we know it is across all-time just one big mosaic that doesn't change, in which God is the unchanging element of the painting.
(that makes sense - rigth?)

God is beyond both time and eterrnity. Nevertheless, both time and eternity are divine processions (proodos), which means that they are merely different ways of experiencing God.

Sounds like a good way to putting it.



I believe you're still thinking of eternity as never-ending time, which is an oxymoron since time is part of creation and thus has a beginning and an end (just like the universe). Eternity has no time, so there's no "point" when God began to create. I'd almost say eternity is simply an adjective for God, for what else is there besides God and Creation?

I don't know...eternity still seems to equate to a prison, from which there can be no escape - to move, change, or act; e.g., creation - without violating one's own nature (if indeed eternity is a part of God's nature). "Frozen" in eternity, one would be unable to have a unique thought, let alone act, for there would be no "then" which could subsequently become "now", whether in thought (reflection) or in deed (action).

The best explanation seems to remain that God is "beyond" eternity and infinity (but then, wouldn't it be errant to refer to eternity as part of God's nature?) in a way that does not involve some other layer / form of time (which would in turn pose the same original problem of infinite regress). Yet that yields an unfortunate side-effect: the atheist is free to appeal to the same thing. That there is simply some unknown aspect of the universe beyond our feeble cognitive abilities.

In other words, appeals to God being beyond eternity forfeit arguments such as those from efficient causality, time & contingency, and change. Any other ideas?

Hmm...

So a certain Catholic philosopher told me something like this (I've constructed a summary of his responses):

God is not merely actual ("first act") but also active ("second act"). Since God is infinitely actual and not potential, He can act without being acted upon or changed. The relationship between cause and effect IN space and time is a reciprocal one, since "to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." But this is not true of the relation between God the eternal cause and the universe (in part or in whole) as the temporal effect.

This is my first post and was thrilled to find this topic. May I add my two cents...

Though this does not answer the orig question - on the topic of time- from an earth standing still revelation I was given this insight by the grace of God---that Time is Foreplay for God.

Please don't think me rude...that was the revelation, pure and simple. Our purpose being only for God's Heart Pleasure --He is so anxiously and deliciously and patiently waiting for our hearts to completely open to Him totally using our own free will. That is His Joy Supreme and Sublime.
Even if only for an instant when we lay fear aside.

Thank you, Jon

Does anyone have any thoughts on the reply of the Catholic philosopher? It seems to me that half of my problem is merely being restated in his answer (God cannot be moved or changed, because such things only exist in time). I grant that - of course - as this is an essential and logically necessary doctrine of the Church, that God is eternal and (consequently) changeless. But I do not see here a real solution to the heart of my problem, which is subsequent: that if God moves (in mind or in "body") he ceases to be eternal. Every motion would be a creation of time. Moreover, it would be a real change . That is, God's actuality in consciousness would in eternity be "this", and would change (necessarily presupposing time) to an actuality in consciousness of "that".

For instance:

"now" = Eternity of God Alone

"then" = Moment of initial time/space via individual act of Creation

How can one deny, while retaining intellectual honesty, that a real change has taken place here? And if a change has occurred, then how could the initiator of the change be eternal? For in "this" becoming "that", we presuppose at least another layer of time but not time's absence.

I will be looking for a solution for awhile, it seems...

Edit: I just thought of another problem. How can it be stated that consciousness may exist at all in changeless eternity? Would not consciousness lose its ability to be defined / recognized if it is not moving through time? Is time necessary for consciousness to exist in actuality?

I dont have time to get into depth right now (I'll try to reply to your previous posts since I am interested in this subject), but the simple answer to your question is summed up in this statment:

God is One Divine Eternal Act

It is impossible to state (even in philosophical terms) that there is a first act and a second act in God. If this were true then God would be divided. Everything God is/does is One. Its something so mysterious and simple that even the best of theologians can explain in a limited way.

I see what you are getting at, but I would answer by saying: God is Eternity. God is Timeless & Placeless, thus He is everywhere & everywhen so in that sense I do not see absence. I see a fullness and perfection.


I would answer by stating that God is One Divine Eternal Act. Everything that God is/does is One. God accomplishes all in One Divine Eternal act. To say otherwise would mean that there is something missing or divided in God which of course we know is not true. So every act of creation, of grace, of providence, all deeds of God in salvation history--are One Divine Eternal Act beyond Time and Place.


God is beyond the Timelessness and Placelessness of Heaven, and he is beyond the lesser eternal nature of angels and men, but He is not beyond Eternity since He is Eternity.


I agree. Eternity is a limited way of describing God, just as we say God is Love, is Mercy, is Justice, etc. yet He is One, and we say His mercy is His justice, is His love, and so on.


Eternity cannot be equated with a prison. In fact it is ultimate freedom. Imagine, by being beyond Time and Place, One is everywhere, and everywhen. And so some explain the Timeless and Placeless nature of Heaven to be Timeful and Placeful. Those in Heaven see the Creation of the world as it is happening. There is not waiting for their friends and families to arrive in Heaven since Heaven is beyond Time and Place.

And still Heaven is a creation and a mere reflection of the One Divine Eternal Act we call God.

One of the punishments of hell is that the inhabitants thereof will always be stuck in a sort of time. Time and place can be a burden to man, and so I like using the druggy, who shoots himself up with heroine, etc as a metaphor for something who is trying to induce a pseudo Timelessness & Placelessness, a pseudo experience of God, where they could practice prayer and occasionally attain a sort of Timelessness contemplative experience in prayer as described by Thomas Merton.



The first sentence above doesnt make sense to me. To divide God into what He is and what He does, isnt a satisfactory explanation for me since that implies division, and thus impefection. In God being is doing and doing is being.

So far so good.



No. You imply (although it may not have been intentional) that there is one eternal act; indeed, this seems to be a solution - but only for those who wish to violate the teaching that the universe is not eternal, but rather was created from nothing at a beginning point. If God's act of creation were eternal, so would be the creation.




I don't know that I agree with calling God "Eternity" but I've not thought a great deal about it; perhaps it is no different than calling God "Love", "Reality", "Truth", or "Power" - in which case, nothing in this statement troubles me.



I can agree with this. Finite methods will never adequately express infinite Divinity.



For those in Heaven, sure (in regards to the experience of freedom). I would suggest that they (saints & angels) would necessarily experience some other dimension of time in which the whole of creation history is perhaps like one long film strip from their perspective, each "frame" (moment & space) able to be studied. Yet, this does not answer the question regarding movement / action within eternity; it begs it. For the whole problem is that eternity is changeless; a motionless "now" - and even that seems inadequate to describe the absolute stillness suggested, for terms such as "now" and "stillness" only make sense with a frame of reference, presupposing surrounding time.



Okay.

[the comments on Hell do not seem relevant to the OP or in need of address]



I trust the philosopher in question, but yeah, it is difficult for me to follow as well.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Gotta figure someone's got it right in this topic board somewhere...

I think Apotheon's is the only sound answer I've seen. I know it is the only one that I have come up with. But that means that the atheist can play the same card - "the universe, at its core, its forces of generation, is 'beyond' our comprehension, beyond such terms as eternity and infinity" etc.

Seemingly, this would make several of the most time-tested arguments for God's existence irrelevant (time, cause, change, etc.)

No. You imply (although it may not have been intentional) that there is one eternal act; indeed, this seems to be a solution - but only for those who wish to violate the teaching that the universe is not eternal, but rather was created from nothing at a beginning point. If God's act of creation were eternal, so would be the creation.
no. I was speaking about the Act of God as being One, Divine, and Eternal. If this wasnt the case then God would continually be making seperate Acts of creation, thus dividing and limiting him into a sort of time.

For time is the ordering and seperation of into a fixed sequence of before and after. If God was not One Divine Eternal Act then, then he would be reduced into Time which is impossible. At one point He would Act by creating the stars, then He would Act again and create the earth, etc. This is impossible since He is One and Eternal, Uncreated, with no beginning, no end, no before and no after.

Eternity is beyond Time and Place. Creation by its very definition is not Eternal and always seperate and lower than God since it always has a beginning. And so God is able to create all that ever was or will be created in One Divine Act since He is Eternity meaning beyond Time and Place or Timeless and Placeless.

For those in Heaven, sure (in regards to the experience of freedom). I would suggest that they (saints & angels) would necessarily experience some other dimension of time in which the whole of creation history is perhaps like one long film strip from their perspective, each "frame" (moment & space) able to be studied. Yet, this does not answer the question regarding movement / action within eternity; it begs it. For the whole problem is that eternity is changeless; a motionless "now" - and even that seems inadequate to describe the absolute stillness suggested, for terms such as "now" and "stillness" only make sense with a frame of reference, presupposing surrounding time.

I am confused with what type of an answer you are looking for. Are we speaking of the Eternity of God? or the eternal nature of Heaven, angels and men?

Yesterday I meant to ask you what you mean by movement or motion within eternity.

"Movement" or "motion" within eternity is meant to express separate actions of thought or deed. Yet as you said, for God to be eternal, there could be no such separation. But if the act of creation is eternal, how then can it be argued that the creation is itself not eternal without violating the principles of logic (as logic, a divine quality, flows from the God who is Truth)? Indeed, all of the collection of God's acts (individually revealed to us in time, as recorded in Scripture and perceived in history), which must nevertheless be one act if God is eternal, would entail the changes effected by the action(s). In other words, the act of Creation and, say, the act of sending the waters of the flood would (together being one eternal act) seem to, by necessity, involve the similar "eternity" of the effected "moments". If the action is eternal but the effect does not follow likewise, then it would seem that the action must not have, in fact, been eternal. For we are not merely referring to a cause that, at any moment, could produce an effect; we are speaking of the action of that cause, effecting that effect. If the action is eternal, therefore so must be the effect.

Which is heresy.

Hence the problem.

As we know that a) God exists and b) the universe began to exist and c) the Church cannot err, we must be able to lay out the logic of things, even if they cannot be fully understood. Which is why it seems the only way out is Apotheon's answer. God is not merely "eternal" but is greater than that which nothing greater can be imagined (that is, "greater" than the limits of imagination: the concepts of eternity and infinity).

Hi,

I am soo not as intellectual as you are -read: not as smart.

But may I ask - why did you write the Church cannot err?

Do you really, really feel that? It was like seeing a fly on my
screen when I read that. Was that rude? Just relaying my
reaction.

Take care,Jon

There is no doubt God is beyond anyway of explaining Him in mere human terms and concepts. So yes I would agree He is beyond the concepts of eternity and infinity. And I think this is where Philosophy, Theology, and even the Sacred Deposit of Faith is limited. Yes God created logic, yet the Truth remains He is beyond the ability of logic to fully explain Him. God is pure Act. He cannot be many acts hence He would be divided. The reason He can Act as One throughout all Time and Place is because He is beyond all Time and Place (Eternity). He is everywhere and everywhen since He is beyond everywhere and everywhen. He can cause an effect at any Time and Place since He is beyond all Time and all Place. He can cause effects at any moment since He is beyond all moments. He is present since He is beyond presence and beyond.

So He can create and cause effects in Time and Place without in any way being a part of that creation or that Time or that Place. God can create a soul in 2000 b.c. in the One and same Act of creating a soul in 2008 a.d. without comprosing the Oneness of His act since He is beyond all Time and Place. God is beyond the moments the two souls came into existance. And to say He is in anyway a part of Time, Place or even some lower dimension of eternity isnt true of course.

Now I see the point Apotheun suggested, but that would be a misnomer. To think that there is an eternity of moments goes against the very definition of eternity. So I think what might be happening is that philosophy or even theology cannot use its own rules to fully explain this. Ultimately it is a mystery beyond complete human comprehension as you suggested at the end. I just have a different way of explaining it.

The voice of Christ is heard in the Church; he has vested his own authority in the Magisterium when he says in Matthew 18:18 that the apostles (and by extension, their successors) have binding authority in union with the preeminent authority, already given in Matthew just two chapters prior, of Peter, who, because of the office Christ has given him, acts as the rock upon which all other Christians rest or stumble. The Lord sends out these offices as Messiah of the Davidic Kingdom - the everlasting Son of David - thereby retaining unity and order in the Church while he is directly, visibly absent at the Father's Right Hand.

When the office of Peter in isolation or the collective offices of the Apostles speaks with the full authority of Christ, we believe that the Holy Spirit by a singular miracle of grace prevents error from being universally bound upon the faithful. Thus doctrine and heresy be truly defined. These dogmas of the faith are found in every ecumenical council's canons (rules / proclamations) in which an anathema was attached to those who held the converse opinion. Dogmas are also found in papal pronouncements that invoke the authority of the papal office as binding on the universal Church, although it is possible (perhaps even likely) that the popes and bishops themselves did not know with clarity this full extent of the authority of St. Peter's successors.

It is true that bishops and popes, like all humans, can and do err. It is false that the Church as a universal Body errs; for that joins err with He who is the Head of that Body: Truth itself, in the flesh. And yes. I really, really believe that. With Augustine I can say that I would not believe the Gospel apart from the authority of the Catholic Church.

Great Great Great thread pham.
I am really enjoying this.
You are all really smart.
This is probally a dumb question considering what you have been debateing.
But, In eternity and heaven (praying that I make it there) will I be able to do certian activities and interact with certian people at certian stages of time ? (that is where im confused since there is no time yet doesnt the bible say that one day with God is like a 1000 years ? )
So is it possible we will have moments in heaven ?
It seems as if it were all blurred together in eternity we wouldnt be able to comprehend what is happening or be able to feel the intimacy of a relationship with someone ?
Since we would be everywhere at all moments and interacting with everything.
This question may not make any sence, but if it does and you have time for an answer I would appreciate it, Godlbess

Dear Delivery Boy,

I don't believe anyone here is qualified to answer you. Where does it say we would be everywhere at all moments and interacting with everything? I must have missed something :)
Did someone say it above - I missed it.
Blurred together? - you will always be you - the individual, special little spark of God's creation - the creation wouldn't be the same without you --it would be like a thread in a tapestry gone. :)

I personally have been interested for years in NDEs (near death experiences) there are websites -google 'em...Dr. Raymond Moody,MD is a nice start because of his practice with children and how he started to notice similar stories from kids that died on the operatng table and were revived. They seemed to have the same sories of what happened "over there".

I buy copies at the used bookstores to have around for people like you asking about the afterlife. Oh, then there's Melvin Morse, MD. Sooo many books from people that were clinically dead for very long periods of time. My friend was dead after an accident and she followed the ambulance to the hospital where she was revived and put back into her wrecked, aching body.

Anyway, this isn't scriptural. But if it interests you there are many resources. I accidently found an entire section at the library - I was in the wrong aisle at the time ....or was I????
;)

God bless you,
Jon

Sorry, I don't mean to step on people's Biblical toes.

It is a good question. In my opinion, though Heaven has a beginning, it was created outside of Time or before Time began and before Places existed. And Heaven is Timeless and Placeless since it is with God who is Eternity. So once the blessed enter Heaven, from a particular point in time (either after death on Earth or from Purgatory) they have always been in Heaven from its beginning. Therefore, if two friends die, one in 1998 and one in 2008 and they both make it to Heaven, the friend who died in 2008 will be there to welcome the friend in 1998 and vice versa.

The quote from the book of Psalms saying one day for God is like a 1000 years is a figure of speech referring to the Eternity of God.

I see where you are confused about things being blurred together, but remember the Blessed in Heaven will be given special abilities, and so they will be able to hold conversations with multiple people at one time. Time is actually a strange thing to be in Heaven is more normal since it is closer to God. Also despite being in Heaven the blessed are still limited finite creatures.

As far as feeling goes I am not sure if the Blessed in Heaven will possess feeling until after the general resurrection when they are re-united with their bodies. After the general resurrection the First Heaven and First Earth pass away and God makes a New Heaven and Earth fitting for both the body and soul of the Faithful. So yes of course close relationships will be possible with feelings, etc. (not sex though). Also, I think God will permit the Blessed to descend down to the New Earth, where their will be animals.

Who can say what God has planned?