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  1. bernard added a post in a topic Population Control   

    I think that the world is overpopulated for the current system. I also think that there are people, groups of families that own the system ie the rockefellars, the queen, George Soros, the rothschilds, the harrimans, the bronfmans and the like. I also believe that various technology has been suppressed and that if we had full use of some of these things there would be no limit to how many people the earth could support. But for these kinds of things to happen the current group will have to relinquish control which they are unlikely to do willingly.
  2. bernard added a post in a topic Vatican Reminder: Sspx Ordinations Are Illegitimate   

    [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1316874819' post='2309235']

    Although I agree with preserving, and perhaps even restoring much of the traditional rite universally, I think we have to recognize that what brought us into this disaster was much deeper. What we really have to restore is a solid Catholic spirituality.

    What exactly do you mean when you say "solid Catholic spirituality"?
  3. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    Did you know the church where the 1986 interreligious meeting took place was destroyed by an earthquake in 1997.

    I think I'll just leave it at that.
  4. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    It's not a matter of me not liking it. This kind of thing has been condemned by previous popes and its not just the SSPX that don't like it, a lot of conservative Catholics don't like it either. But I probably should have left that line out of my post it was a bit antagonistic.
  5. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    I think Pius XI was pretty in line with what the Church fathers have always taught but back to where we started, the VII documents that Marcel Lefebvre refused to sign, one of those being Nostra Aetate.

    Nostra Aetate, is pretty much what Pius XI was condemning in what I posted earlier and the Assisi meetings are the manifestations of this VII declaration.

    There is another Assisi interreligious meeting planned for October 27th of this year, we'll see how many converts we get out of it.

    And as far as this ties into the entire thread, last Thursday (the day before the meeting in Rome) the SSPX published a very condemning article about Assisi, I picked one up and read it on the way home from mass. I was really wondering why they would publish such a severe condemnation of the past Assisi events and the one coming up in October THE DAY BEFORE MEETING WITH THE VATICAN. Where they trying to appease the hardcore elements withing the society who think the society is going to soften its position? I mean they have been doing a rosary crusade that they would regularized, publishing this pamphlet is hardly going to help that cause.

    Letter here
  6. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    Here is a Ukranian Orthodox Bishop who accepts papal authority, he addresses the pope "Your Holiness." He is also scandalized by the Assisi meetin's. So you matey have to ask how many faithful are we losin' because of these events.
  7. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316450914' post='2307023']
    What Pope Pius XI condemned be this:

    If you matey read the document, it's very clear what he's condemnin'. He's condemnin' a 'Pan-Christian' theology that suggests thar are many different brand aarrrs of Christianity, all with some truth, but none with the full truth. thar is a hope for Christian unity, but an assumption that it does not yet exist. This approach reduces Catholicism to a denomination of Christianity, so that if Catholics were to participate it would suggest that we are one among many 'churches'.[/quote]

    And if he condemns pan-Christianity what would would would be his opinion of the interfaith prayer meetin' at Assisi where the Dalai Lama puts a Bhudda statue on top of the tabernacle?

    But anyway in the same document Pius Xi writes.

    [color=#000080]...Such undertakin's cannot, in any way, be approved by Catholics, since they be based on the erroneous opinion that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy, in the sense that all equally, although in different ways, manifest and signify the natural and innate sentiment that carries us towards God and pushes us to recognize with respect His power. In truth, the partisans of this theory fall into a complete error, but what is more, in pervertin' the notion of the true religion, they repudiate it, and they fall step by step into naturalism and atheism.[/color]

    IF you matey don't see the problem with these interfaith meetin's, where nobody is encouraged to convert but rather "live more deeply in their own faiths" and where each faith is (to anyone viewin') is on an equal footin' then I don't think thar is anythin' I or Pius XI could say to make you matey think otherwise.

    how do I get this pirate talkin off?
  8. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    It's not me condemning interfaith prayer/worship it's Pope Pius Xi.
  9. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1316407220' post='2306677']
    There are aspects of our faith that have needed to be addressed more specifically over time. If something was confusing or leading people astray, it had to be clarified. The apostles probably wouldn't recognize the theological arguments for the doctrine of transubstantiation. Doesn't mean that the Church hasn't 'always taught that,' but it does mean that people within the Church held a variety of views, some of which were eventually identified as heresies. Lanfranc had to shoot down Berenger's ideas a millenium after Jesus said 'This is my body.' Origen's never gonna be canonized, not because he was a heretic, but because he held views that were later held by heretics (or led to...depends which ideas you want to assign as his). But he was not himself a condemned heretic, because the Church hadn't gotten around to defining those dogmas yet.

    Eternal truth is just that...unchanging; the same yesterday today and tomorrow. The Church, however, being made up of people and existing in time, is constantly changing and growing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If someone were to try to 'freeze' the Church in one particular time, that remnant would die, because living things cannot be preserved like that.

    So is interreligious worship ok or not?
  10. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1316397914' post='2306573']

    Do you read Pope's hearts, minds souls?


    No, only God can do that. We can only judge by outward actions. And to many this prayer meeting in Assisi can only be interpreted as an act of public heresy.

    [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1316397914' post='2306573']

    Could it be possible that Pope John Paul II was soooo opened to meeting people of other faiths because he realized that no where else in their lives would they ever have a chance to be in the Presence of Jesus Christ? Perhaps the whole time Pope John Paul II was calling upon the Almighty God to shower graces upon these lost sheep who are outside the fold? Perhaps the whole time during these assissi prayer conferences, Pope John Paul II was calling on St. Michael to crush the demons of these other false religions and God give them the grace to open up their hearts minds souls to the one true Faith in Jesus Christ? We know that we haven't been reaching out to these other religions, we know in the history of the Church we kept ourselves isolated from them...well how is that supposed to save them???


    It's not impossible, it's pretty unlikely though. Regardless, we judge by outward actions and what he did was clearly condemned.

    [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1316397914' post='2306573']

    Pope John Paul visited Israel, and the weeks before he went there, hundreds of Jews scoffed at his visit, several prayed Psalms against him, and people didn't want him there. During the week of his visit, he visited synagogues and spoke to those people of other faiths. At the end of the week, those calling for the Pope's head were left in tears, many had been to the Mass at the site of the Sermon on the Mount, and they soon discovered that the Mass was very beautiful, and that it seemed to fulfill a longing in their hearts that they didn't even know could be fulfilled in their lifetimes...

    In other words they became emotional much like when people used to see Michael Jackson in concert or listen to one of Obama's "yes we can speeches."

    How many converted? that's the question.

    Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone I just see how you can accept contradictions.
  11. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    Thanks, and I don't suppose you could tell me who is right on the whole interreligious thing? I mean it is either forbidden as expressed by Pius XI in 1929 or it is fine as demonstrated by JP II and the VII documents seem to imply.
  12. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1316357940' post='2306234']
    Oh you mean like the Bible?

    Exactly. Only thing is we need the Bible.
  13. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1316281393' post='2305883']
    benard, I am not asking you to answer these here, but just to reflect on. Are you certain you have the interpretation of the documents correct? Are you reading those documents honestly or with a prejudice that the documents already state would you think?

    My reasons for attending traditional parishes stem mainly from the destruction of the mass which can be established quite easily by comparing the old rite and the new rite and by looking at the man who created the new mass, Archbishop Annibale Bugnini. I don't have timee to dig up everything I've read on Vatican II but two things come to mind in regard to what I posted earlier.

    1. The Church, historically, has always been very clear and in what it teaches. A good example of what I mean is PIUS XI's encyclical on marriage (Casti Connubi). After reading the encyclical I had a very clear idea of what was expected of me as a Catholic husband as there was no room for misinterpretation. Since Vatican II however, everything is vague and ambiguous. Many of the documents can be interpreted as liberal to one group and conservative to another. I think it was done by design giving the authors plausible deniability, ie "it wasn't intended to be interpreted this way or that way." Regardless if it was by design or not, if it is being widely misinterpreted then obviously it wasn't clear and unambiguous enough to begin with and should be abandoned.

    2. John Paul II held an interreligious meeting at Assisi in 1986 (the details of which are covered in the video below starting at the 1 minute mark) and again in 2002. Pope Benedict XVI plans a similar event on Oct. 27th. I think this indicates how these two popes interpret these VII documents which is clearly in opposition to what other popes have taught.

    Pius XI explicitly condemned interreligious meetings in his encyclical Mortalium Animos

    The details of which are covered in the video starting at the 1 minute mark.
  14. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1316263216' post='2305793']
    Bernard, these are the exact parts of the Council Documents, my ex-Dominican friend has sooooo much trouble with. She stormed outta our Council class when these were discussed. I didn't applaud her for her stand, even though I struggle with these as well... and I continue to struggle with them... I also struggle with the statement that the Church, as a society organized in the modern world "subsists" in the Catholic church and yet, santification and truthful elements are found outside. I have struggled greatly with these words, but I'm not leaving the Catholic church over documents that do not bear any canonical weight... it is not a Council to end all Councils, and I believe these things you are bringing up are some ideas that can and should be widely discussed.

    No traditionalist I know thinks they are leaving the Church. I believe the Church has been hijacked and sabotaged and the faithful who stay there (in the Novus Ordo) are being led into apostacy. These VII documents are not the only reason I attend the SSPX, its everything, the new mass, the weird spaceship churches, the effeminate priests. I mean when I was home in Canada last year my mom said oh you don't call him a priest anymore there is a new name for him, can't remember the name. I want the same mass that all the other Catholics up until the 1960s had. Plus this weird Orwellian language, ordinary form, extraordinary form. How can the mass of all time be the "extraordinary form."
    Why all these new names and new translations?
  15. bernard added a post in a topic Sspx-Judgment Day, Sept 14   

    Well that didn't take long. The script in red is from the Vatican II documents, followed by commentary and opposing decrees by previous popes.

    Principal heresies of Vatican II.

    [b][i]6. Nostra Aetate[/i][/b][b] - [/b][i]Decree on Non-Christian Religions[/i]

    [i]Nostra aetate[/i] # 3:
    "[color=#B22222]The Church also looks upon [u]Muslims[/u] with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and mighty, creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they[u] seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly[/u], just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted [u]to God[/u]...[u] Hence they have regard for the moral life and worship God in prayer, almsgiving and fasting[/u].[/color]"[73]

    Here we find Vatican II teaching that Muslims worship the one God, the Creator of Heaven and earth. This is similar to, but slightly different from, the heresy that we have already exposed in [i]Lumen Gentium[/i]. Here Vatican II does not say that Muslims worship God who will judge mankind on the last day, but that Muslims worship the One God who [b][i]created heaven and earth[/i][/b]. The false god of the Muslims did not create heaven and earth. The Most Holy Trinity created heaven and earth.

    Pope St. Leo IX, [i]Congratulamur[/i][i] vehementer[/i], April 13, 1053:
    "[b]For I firmly believe that the Holy Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit[/b], is one omnipotent God, and in the Trinity the whole Godhead is co-essential and consubstantial, co-eternal and co-omnipotent, and of one will, power, majesty; [b]the creator of all creation, from whom all things, through whom all things, in whom all things which are in heaven or on earth, visible or invisible[/b]. Likewise I believe that each person in the Holy Trinity is the one true God, complete and perfect."[74]

    [i]Nostra Aetate[/i] 3 also says that the Catholic Church looks upon Muslims with respect, who seek to submit themselves to God wholeheartedly, just as Abraham did. But Vatican II's admiration for the infidel Muslims is not shared by the Catholic Church. The Church desires the conversion and eternal happiness of all the Muslims, but she recognizes that Islam is a horrible and false religion; and she does not pretend that they submit themselves to God. She knows that they belong to a false religion.

    Pope Eugene IV, [i]Council of [/i][i]Basel[/i], Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:
    "Moreover, we trust that with God's help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from [b]the abominable sect of Mahomet[/b] will be converted to the Catholic faith."[75]

    Pope Clement V, [i]Council of [/i][i]Vienne[/i], 1311-1312:
    "[b]It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith[/b] that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore [b]the infidel Mahomet[/b], loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place... [b]This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful.[/b] [b]These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty[/b]. We therefore, with the sacred council's approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. [b]They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet[/b]... Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness."[76]

    Pope Benedict strictly forbade Catholics to even give Muslim names to their children under pain of damnation.

    Pope Benedict XIV, [i]Quod[/i][i] Provinciale[/i], Aug. 1, 1754:
    "The Provincial Council of your province of Albania... decreed most solemnly in its third canon, among other matters, as you know, that [b]Turkish or Mohammedan names should not be given either to children or adults in baptism... This should not be hard for any one of you, venerable brothers, for none of the schismatics and heretics has been rash enough to take a Mohammedan name, and unless your justice abounds more than theirs, you shall not enter the kingdom of God[/b]."[77]

    Vatican II's document [i]Nostra Aetate[/i] likewise expresses its great esteem for Jews who reject Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    [i]Nostra aetate[/i] # 4:
    [color=#B22222]"Since, therefore, [u]the spiritual heritage common to Christians and Jews is so great, this synod wishes to promote and recommend that mutual knowledge and esteem[/u] which is required especially from biblical and theological studies and from friendly dialogues.[/color]"[78]

    [i]Nostra aetate[/i] # 4:
    [color=#B22222]"As holy scripture is witness, Jerusalem did not know the time of its visitation, and for the most part [u]the Jews did not accept the Gospel[/u], indeed many of them opposed its dissemination. [u]Nevertheless[/u], according to the apostle, because of their ancestors [u]the Jews still remain very dear to God[/u], whose gift and call are without regret."[/color][79]

    The Catholic Church does not look upon the Jews with esteem, but with sadness, acknowledging that they exist in a state of rejection of the true God; and that they need to be recalled from their false religion in order to be saved.

    Pope Benedict XIV, [i]A Quo Primum[/i] (# 4), June 14, 1751:
    [b]"Surely it is not in vain that the Church has established the universal prayer which is offered up for the faithless Jews from the rising of the sun to its setting, that the Lord God may remove the veil from their hearts, that they may be rescued from their darkness into the light of truth[/b]. For unless it hoped that those who do not believe would believe, it would obviously be futile and empty to pray for them."[80]

    Pope Benedict XIV is referring to the prayer in the Catholic liturgy which implored God to convert the perfidious Jews. The word perfidious means unfaithful.[81] Not surprisingly, in 1960, the phrase "perfidious Jews" was removed from the Good Friday liturgy by Pope John XXIII. Furthermore, Pope Eugene IV dogmatically defined that everyone who practices the Mosaic law - that is, the Jewish religion - cannot be saved.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, [i]Cantate[/i][i] Domino[/i], Feb. 4, 1441:
    [b]"The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law[/b], which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord's coming had been signified by them, [b]ceased[/b], and the sacraments of the New Testament began; [b]and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them[/b] as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, [b]sinned mortally[/b]. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; [b]but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation.[/b] [b]All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation[/b], unless someday they recover from these errors."[82]

    Besides Jews and Muslims, [i]Nostra Aetate[/i] made sure to remind the world how great Buddhism is and how this false religion leads to the highest illumination.

    [i]Nostra aetate[/i] # 2:
    [color=#B22222]"[u]In Buddhism[/u], according to its various forms, the radical inadequacy of this changeable world is acknowledged and a way is taught whereby [u]those with a devout and trustful spirit may be able to reach[/u] either a state of perfect freedom or, relying on their own efforts or on help from a higher source, [u]the highest illumination[/u].[/color]"[83]

    And the false religion of Hinduism is praised for its inexhaustible wealth of penetrating philosophical investigations, as well as its ascetical life and deep meditation.

    [i]Nostra aetate[/i] # 2:[color=#B22222]"[u]Thus in Hinduism the divine mystery is explored [/u]and propounded with an inexhaustible wealth of myths and [u]penetrating philosophical investigations[/u], and liberation is sought from the distresses of our state either [u]through various forms of ascetical life or deep meditation or taking refuge in God[/u] with loving confidence."[/color][84]

    Amid all of this blasphemy, no mention is made that these infidels must be converted to Christ; no prayer is offered that the faith may be granted to them; and no admonition that these idolaters must be delivered from their impiety. What we see is praise and esteem for these religions of the devil. What we see is an unequivocal syncretism, which treats all religions as if they are paths to God.

    Pope Pius XI, [i]Mortalium[/i][i] Animos[/i] (# 2), Jan. 6, 1928:
    "... [b]that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy[/b], ... [b]Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it[/b], and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; [b]from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion."[85][/b]

    Pope Pius IX, [i]Qui Pluribus[/i] (# 15), Nov. 9, 1846:
    [b]"Also perverse is that shocking theory that it makes no difference to which religion one belongs, a theory greatly at variance even with reason[/b]. By means of this theory, those crafty men remove all distinction between virtue and vice, truth and error, honorable and vile action. [b]They pretend that men can gain eternal salvation by the practice of any religion,[/b] [b]as if there could ever be any sharing between justice and iniquity, any collaboration between light and darkness,[/b] [b]or any agreement between Christ and Belial."[/b][86]

    Pope Eugene IV, [i]Council of Florence[/i], Cantate Domino, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in the eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives..."[87]

    Pope Gregory XVI, [i]Summo[/i][i] Iugiter Studio[/i] (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    [b]"Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."[/b][88]