[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:56 AM']Okay then, what makes you doubt Divine Inspiritation of the Scripture?
And I have to go, but I will try to reply later this evening.
Well first of all how do we know if something is inspired? How can we verify it? How can we verify things such as the Pope's infallability on matters of faith. Is it simply a passage in a book, or do we have something else? How do we determined that other "inspired" books are fraudulent? Were all those who took part in the cannonizing of the bible inspired aswell? If so , how do we know?
[quote name='jezic' date='Nov 3 2005, 12:03 PM']
proving God with philosophy is difficult because there are people who do not accept certain assumptions (which are valid) and those must be proven (so you end up proving many other things in the process.)
I agree. Alot of God arguments rely on presuppostions.
[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Nov 3 2005, 02:43 PM']Athiests have the cruelty of humanity, the lack of emperical evidence of a soul or of God, can point to the heartlessness of creation, and back it up with their emotional response to all of the above.
Lovely picture you paint. I could understand considering the christian worldview sees man as a terrible no good beast that is only worth a smidgen because of God. Ofcourse I disagree. While man is cruel and can be heartless, I think our true nature is that one of love and wanting to be loved and accepted. I don't buy the inherently cruel argument. Maybe someone could show me otherwise. As far as the heartlessness of creation I dont understand what you mean by that?
[quote]Atheists don't like to think that they've chosen a religion...the whole point (well, one of the points) is to distance themselves from the illogical, crutch-using bible thumpers who have to rely on some 'mystic being' to make it through the day. It still doesn't get away from the fact that you've built up a belief set of your own about God's existance (or lack thereof)...a religion.
And agnostics... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
Now I actually agree with you on some points here. I think for those who have turned away from religion the idea of being called an adherent to one is unsettling. My qualm with your distinction is that you use the term loosely enough to entitle things such as patriotism to be a religion.
[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:46 AM']And Melchisedec, you found doubt because you believe there lacked suffecient back up or evidence for Divine Inspiration? Or was it more of a lack of answers to some of the more difficult questions that lead you away from the faith?
I would say both. But inspiration is something that is probably a bigger issue for most things.
[quote]And a bit more personal question if you do not mind me asking, why are you on a Catholic forum then?
Well many moons ago there was a Catholic raiding party that went around to all the Atheist forums posting links to phatmass welcoming people to come and discuss various things. I took them up on the offer and kinda stuck around. I've had some great conversations here. But anytime you guys want me out, all you gotta do is say so.
[quote name='philothea' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:14 AM'] And Christianity doesn't "make sense" like say, mathematics does. Expecting otherwise is always going to lead to an apparent contradiction
I am curious as to why it doesn't make sense? How could I understand it then?
[quote]However, the experience I mentioned was that many people -- athiests especially -- do not seriously investigate the teachings of the Church because [i]if it turned out the Church was right[/i] they would either have to radically change their lifestyle, or undergo (perceived) public embarassment for having to retract what they'd said before. They are invested in God not existing. People do this in all fields of life. It's hardly unique.
I hear that argument alot . That essentially people don't want to believe in God because they would have to alter their lifestyle. I've been told that the reason I am Atheist is because I want to lead an immoral life. I mean thats so insulting. I think maybe in some cases it might be true and I will acknowledge that. Yet I see homosexuals who believe in God wholeheartedly. Even in the midst of continuing to lead their 'lifestyle' and knowing that they are essentially damned. You would think they would just reject God. I see usually people bending beliefs to suit their own agendas than flat out rejecting the idea of God altogether. I mean I don't encounter many Atheist in my life. Yet I encounter people who believe in God without a doubt and tend to live their life as they please.
[quote]I don't know anything about your lifestyle, but given your radio broadcasts, you may be personally invested in athiesm now?
I am pretty involved with atheism now but I don't do it as Im part of a team against another team. I am a knowledge seeker and I like to research these topics continually. Infidelguy is a place were the two sides explore the issues. I know some good friends that are very brilliant christian philosophers and we enjoy discussing the issues and getting a new perspective on things.
[quote name='jezic' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:55 AM']You can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.
Umm.... question ..... if many atheists were believers at one time, what happened to them? Intelligence should lead to God because, as we believe, he is the source and the Creator and is thus intelligent.
Why would intelligence lead you to decide that God didn't exist?
I'll try to be as brief as I can. From the moment I was taught that there is a God, I was immediately drawn to it. I wanted to know everything I could about God and what my purpose in life was. It became my lifes work and I wanted to dedicate myself to becomming as close to God as humanly possible . Throughout the years I had taken in alot of information from the Bible and other christian writings. I would believe it usually because it just felt right or some other emotion deep inside. I never ever questioned the source. I thought, hey this is the Bible, right. The book of God - case closed. Doubts started to creep in my head when I was exposed to other beliefs. Some of these other beliefs I felt a deep connection with and really felt that people might be getting Gods plan all wrong. Namely, organizations.So I became a 'I just believe in God and try to live a good life type' of person. It wasn't until I started to deeply analyze why I believe in something that everything began to unravel. I started to ask myself, Who wrote this? How many of them wrote it? Why should I believe they were inspired by God? Whos right and whos wrong? Why isn't there evidence? What is faith? Did any of this happen? Just to name a few.
So its not like I sought out to descredit the bible or any other religious texts. My journey in learning more about them led me away from it all. Because when it was all said and done I didnt find God. I found man. It was hard to come to grips with it but I did and alot of other people have. It makes me sick that people just say that we never ever really invested into the idea of God. Some of us lived most of our lives for God.
This probably isn't very charitable of me, but the athiests I have known have been very invested in the idea of there [i]not[/i] being a God. I don't know anyone who has given the possiblity of God a decent chance that didn't wind up religious.
Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included. Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.
I definitely believe English should be the official language and that those who come to America should respect our country by learning the language. I would learn Japanese if I moved to Japan and I dont think America should be an exception. When I came here I knew nothing but spanish and over the years have perfected my english. It upsets me when I see family members or anyone for that matter who have been living here for years and have made no or little attempts to learn english. Its almost insulting really. I love my grandma with all my heart, but she has been living here over 50 years and can only say just a few words. However I do feel it would be good for Americans to learn a second language.
[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 1 2005, 10:27 AM']Well you are [b]always[/b] free to do the good. No matter what the circumstances are, I am always allowed to do the good. In fact, doing anything other than the good is considered an abuse of free will. Free will when used appropriately leads one towards greater union with God.
Aside from that, if you are only able to walk in a straight line, are you then free to walk in a curvy one? I find that the answer would be no. If we had to walk in a straight line there would be no choice for the other, and therefore no freedom in the situation but rather simply following a path to its logical conclusion. Free will is the ability to walk in a straight line, a curvy one, or to sit still and do nothing at all.
To me in a world with no evil there is still free will. I think the point Christians want to make is that if you didn't have evil than you couldn't conceiveably reject God. But I assert that even if you live in a world with no evil you could still reject God. just because there is no evil does not mean that everyone is required to love each other. You can respect someone and not love them. You could respectful choose not to believe in God.
[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Oct 31 2005, 07:47 PM']ok - supposing a terrorist leader of a country calls out to radical Islamic all peoples to burn Israel to the ground --- and people would say "hey, i thought Islam was founded on peace, not convert-or-die tactics... these people dont speak for Islam"
oh wait - Islam WAS founded on a "convert-by-the-sword" thought... so
Catch [i]my[/i] drift?
i guess these guys are not contradicting thier Islamic foundations ... and maybe they do speak for Islam..
after all ---- we have yet to hear a loud out-cry from all the other "leaders of Islam" against killing so-called "infidels"
Can someone explain to me the difference between a heretic and an infidel. Because I remember a conversation on these phorums were the church felt it was absolutely justified in the killings of so called heretics. I see a parallel between that and Islams infidel battelcry. Am I mistaken here?
[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 31 2005, 03:11 PM']God created them knowing that even though they would introduce evil, He could bring about even greater good.
They had to be able to sin because in order to do anything freely, you must be able to abuse that freedom.
Since God wanted us to love Him, He wanted us to be free. Realizing what that meant, i.e., that we could abuse that freedom, He knew that creating us would still be a good and that in redeeming us, He could bring about an even greater good, and that in dying for us, He could bring about infinite good, pouring goodness forth for all eternity into His creation.
Just a messy convoluted system. Why not have Utopia from start?