AccountDeleted Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I know that the UK nuns are hard pressed because Catholicism has not been strong in England since good old Henry VIII split the church, but now that the Traditional Anglicans are reuniting with Rome, maybe vocations will improve since the pot is bigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='elizabeth09' date='10 November 2009 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1257894213' post='1999884'] Some families have only have 2 children (most families, but not all) today or they do not want any children. [/quote] [quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1257902141' post='1999995'] And in those smaller Catholic families, how many are stressing the importance of religious life or the priesthood anymore? Once upon a time it was considered an honour to have a child who was a priest or nun, but today it is hardly mentioned in many families. I know that my brother's children were raised Catholic, and even attended Catholic school, but I don't think anyone at home or at school ever even raised the idea of becoming a religious to them! Of course the schools aren't run by nuns anymore either! A lot of things have changed, and not necessarily for the better! [/quote] Yes I agree with both of you. I know that it was almost a given that someone in a big Catholic family would become a sister or a priest. Nowadays parents are having children later, and maybe only one or two and so vocations aren't stressed because they don't want to sacrifice the children they have. I know that in my household, while there's 3 of us, no one ever talked about religious life. I remember once commenting to my at-the-time very prayerful brother that he'd make a good priest. My mother hit the roof, exclaiming, "bite your tongue!" [quote name='vee8' date='10 November 2009 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1257900528' post='1999971'] I think one of the reasons could be at the diocesan level. Does a diocese offer prayers for vocations to the priesthood [u]and[/u] religious life? Do they have resources ready for young women in particular who might be interested in religious life? Of course we need priests however it seems to me some dioceses only focus on promoting that particular vocation because who would want to be a monk or nun that`s sooo outdated! [/quote] Perhaps that's another case of out of sight, out of mind? Because cloisters are not all that much of an active presence, and of course because they aren't really a contribution to society because all they do is pray all day , one doesn't think of cloistered religious when praying for vocations. I'm lucky. My parish prays for vocations to religious life every weekend. [quote name='Orans' date='10 November 2009 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1257903199' post='2000009'] I am glad to see in this thread an opinion that overcomes the often easy judgment on communities -seen in our phorum-, that the more traditional, conservative, and unchanged the better. And yet all and every holy founder and foundress in the Church has certainly not been a "conservative", they have always come up with some newness that the Spirit inspired at the moment because it was needed to fill a gap or balance a tendency. This is what Vatican II was also, a call to renewal in the spirit of the Gospel and the original -and always creative- inspiration of the founders. The invitation was to look back at the source, at the charism -or gift of Grace- and to incarnate it in modern or contemporary expressions. Without losing the values of course. B[b]ut this is easier said than done. It is easy to cut shorter a habit, to tear down walls or grilles, but what else is needed ... if anything?? Or maybe even that is not necessary at all, so that we can just rewrite our documents with wording according to Vat II and leave everything the same ... for the sake of not making mistakes?? [/b] [/quote] I'm not sure what you mean here. [quote] For a young vocation to persevere in contemplative life the person n[u]eeds to find meaning and fulfilment in spite of challenges and difficulties[/u] ... And I think this demands depth, maturity, and genuine spiritual life in the members already in the community. And this is not that easy to find in every small, cloistered, autonomous monastery. [/quote] And to not have communities kick out vocations at the first sight of a challenge. Sometimes God uses those challenges as a refiner's fire and then the person leaves their vocation, sometimes not entering anywhere else. I'm not saying they lost their vocation of their own fault... but sometimes I think communities are too quick to claim early difficulties in a vocation as a 'sign' that they're not meant for either that community or religious life as a whole. [quote] The Church -Vatican documents instructions- have tried for decades to get nuns step down from the first and foremost rule of autonomy of the individual monasteries. We can see that religious families that have succeded in creating structures beyond the monastery are being blessed -I can mention the Trappistines, and some federations of Dominicans as an example. If we look at the new cloistered families they are no longer Orders with autonomous monasteries but Congregations with a central government -superior general- and common noviciate. These Institutes, like the Sisters of Bethlehem and the Assumption of the Virgin and St. Bruno; or the Contemplative Sisters of St. John, and others, are thriving and having many vocations. I also think that the real renewal of contemplative life is still to be done. Often what can be found is, either a rigidity of sticking to the Rule in spite of stepping on real human beings, or the other end of the pendulun where the individual human being becomes the Rule. How to find the balance, the wisdom in between those extremes, when as religious and contemplatives we are to profess the extremes of radical love that Jesus lived and showed us? [b]We need anonymous saints to do it, people passionately in love with God and with a particular religious family.[/b] When we have this -and we have it here and there- then individual monasteries thrive, somehow the "smell" of the Spirit es too fragrant to be overlooked. Of course there are many other things playing in this puzzle -some already mentioned- but I think we all need to commit ourselves, individually and personally, to following the Gospel -here and now- with greater commitment and risk taking in order to really overcome the pull of our secular society, for ourselves and for others who will come after us. My thing is, let's take the torch and run the race . The Spirit is the Flame![img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img] [/quote] I'm SO completely in love with Carmel and see some communities suffer and want to help, although in all practicality I'm not sure what help I could be! Hence this thread. I'm so enjoying our discussion. God bless you all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1257906468' post='2000054'] I know that the UK nuns are hard pressed because Catholicism has not been strong in England since good old Henry VIII split the church, but now that the Traditional Anglicans are reuniting with Rome, maybe vocations will improve since the pot is bigger? [/quote] LOL! I love it. Well, I know that in Europe so many are delaying or omitting childbearing altogether so with lack of children will also come lack of vocations. Very sad, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote]And to not have communities kick out vocations at the first sight of a challenge. Sometimes God uses those challenges as a refiner's fire and then the person leaves their vocation, sometimes not entering anywhere else. I'm not saying they lost their vocation of their own fault... but sometimes I think communities are too quick to claim early difficulties in a vocation as a 'sign' that they're not meant for either that community or religious life as a whole. [/quote] Not to make this too personal, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with this one. I still have no idea why Mother was so insistent that I leave Kirk Edge, while at the same time offering to phone any other Carmel in the UK and give them a reference for me, and also giving me a written letter of recommendation saying that I was a hard worker and totally obedient! The reasons she gave me didn't make any sense, especially after she had arranged for me to meet with a priest (the VR) for nearly two hours and he told her that her concerns were really just the result of cultural misunderstandings. She couldn't name any instance of anything that I had actually done wrong (it was just a feeling of hers) and I even asked for more time to show her that I could be molded into whatever she wanted to suit her requirements, but she wouldn't consider even that much. It seems to me that as KE had their last solemn profession over 14 years ago, and vocations are at an all time low all over the UK, there would be some desire to try to make things work, like in a marriage, especially when the person involved was prepared to do anything and everything to make it work, and loved everything about the relationship despite being rejected! Personally, I have now accepted it as God's will and plan for my life, but in terms of communities and vocations, it just doesn't seem like a very good way to encourage and keep vocations - to give up on someone just because they don't seem to meet some idealized vision of the perfect postulant. That is almost like a discerner looking for the perfect community - ain't gonna happen! Now don't anyone get upset over what I have written. I am ok, and I don't mean any disrespect to Mother or to the community, as I still stay in touch with them and with WV and we are all on the best of terms. I was just agreeing with HisChild that communities need to also consider that maybe one of the reasons they don't have (or can't keep) vocations is because of something they are not doing right?? Marriage is a 2-way street, and so is community life. That being said, it would be better to focus on what is being done right, and then maybe other communities could try to imitate this? The Poor Clares in Spain are just one example, but there are many more who are also thriving, and that is so inspiring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Amen, my sister in Carmel. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orans Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [indent][indent][quote] This is what Vatican II was also, a call to renewal in the spirit of the Gospel and the original -and always creative- inspiration of the founders. The invitation was to look back at the source, at the charism -or gift of Grace- and to incarnate it in modern or contemporary expressions. Without losing the values of course. But this is easier said than done. It is easy to cut shorter a habit, to tear down walls or grilles, but what else is needed ... if anything?? Or maybe even that is not necessary at all, so that we can just rewrite our documents with wording according to Vat II and leave everything the same ... for the sake of not making mistakes?? [/quote] [/indent][/indent][quote name='HisChild' date='10 November 2009 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1257906906' post='2000060'] I'm not sure what you mean here.[/quote] I'm trying to convey here my own experience. I've been in several communities over a period of 30 years, from very conservative communities who haven't really changed (except they adapted the wording of Constitutions and documents to the requirements of the Vatican regulations) and won't ever change. Here tradition and not making any changes is far more important than the openness to the Spirit. I can quote one particular Congregation born around the same time as Mother Teresa's and also with full approval -Decretum Laudis- in which a favorite phrase of the founder and foundress was "here is this way, if it is not this way, it is not here". They have written down and approved by Rome every minute detail of their life, and I mean minute really. The foundress wanted to be SURE that things were not going to change after her given all the turmoil she saw around monasteries in her life time. Then I've also been in other communities who have changed to the point of getting closer to live pretty much according to themselves and overlooking what doesn't suit in the Constitutions -which are very general. Ironically I found in practice this very open community to be exactly as rigid about imposing their way on everyone coming to the monastery. As an example, they had big flexibility with the personal horarium for every Sister, there is a TV room in the monastery and it was normal to watch TV during free time. But funny enough they would not be happy with a person who would use their free time for prayer instead of TV watching as it was the use. I also saw individual holy persons in both cases. So I'm trying to say that we have much greater individual responsibility for holiness than we might like, and that ultimately it is not the community and it's style what matters but our personal response to God in the given circumstances of our life. [quote name='HisChild' date='10 November 2009 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1257906906' post='2000060'] And to not have communities kick out vocations at the first sight of a challenge. Sometimes God uses those challenges as a refiner's fire and then the person leaves their vocation, sometimes not entering anywhere else. I'm not saying they lost their vocation of their own fault... but sometimes I think communities are too quick to claim early difficulties in a vocation as a 'sign' that they're not meant for either that community or religious life as a whole. [/quote] I agree with this too. And it is a reflection of lack of maturity and depth in the community already living the life, which has the sacred responsibility to pass on the charism, and to help form and grow the new comers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 It doesn't take a few months to form a nun. Especially with today's society where independence and self sufficiency are normal traits due to will or necessity, it sometimes take a couple of years before the person feels truly settled in the community. I don't know, but I think that in some situations communities might have had a really great sister had they waited out some initial difficulties. I know for myself, dying to myself and shedding the trappings of the world will take some time. I have not really love for things of this earth because they are so fleeting, but for whatever silly reason I still know it will take some time to get the 'drug' of the world out of my system, if that makes sense. Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, pray for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orans Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1257908811' post='2000120'] Not to make this too personal, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with this one. I still have no idea why Mother was so insistent that I leave Kirk Edge, while at the same time offering to phone any other Carmel in the UK and give them a reference for me, and also giving me a written letter of recommendation saying that I was a hard worker and totally obedient! The reasons she gave me didn't make any sense, especially after she had arranged for me to meet with a priest (the VR) for nearly two hours and he told her that her concerns were really just the result of cultural misunderstandings. She couldn't name any instance of anything that I had actually done wrong (it was just a feeling of hers) and I even asked for more time to show her that I could be molded into whatever she wanted to suit her requirements, but she wouldn't consider even that much. It seems to me that as KE had their last solemn profession over 14 years ago, and vocations are at an all time low all over the UK, there would be some desire to try to make things work, like in a marriage, especially when the person involved was prepared to do anything and everything to make it work, and loved everything about the relationship despite being rejected! Personally, I have now accepted it as God's will and plan for my life, but in terms of communities and vocations, it just doesn't seem like a very good way to encourage and keep vocations - to give up on someone just because they don't seem to meet some idealized vision of the perfect postulant. That is almost like a discerner looking for the perfect community - ain't gonna happen! Now don't anyone get upset over what I have written. I am ok, and I don't mean any disrespect to Mother or to the community, as I still stay in touch with them and with WV and we are all on the best of terms. I was just agreeing with HisChild that communities need to also consider that maybe one of the reasons they don't have (or can't keep) vocations is because of something they are not doing right?? Marriage is a 2-way street, and so is community life. That being said, it would be better to focus on what is being done right, and then maybe other communities could try to imitate this? The Poor Clares in Spain are just one example, but there are many more who are also thriving, and that is so inspiring! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/love.gif[/img] [/quote] "Been there done -or rather suffered- that!!!!!" This is one of the HUGE problems I see with survival of autonomous monasteries versus the wider frame of Congregations. This is such a small group of women, often with little education or life experience -the old ones at least- living in a routine that makes them officially "holy". Why would Reverend Mother (do we need to call them that way in the XXI century?? Isn't "Mother" reverent enough?) choose to have to deal with personal or community issues that the candidate stirs by her very presence especially when she has no clue about what to do or how to deal with it? At least there is a basic goodness that makes them realize that it is not the new comer's fault, and are willing to help the candidate make a try in some other place.... But they just can help themselves. I've come to make peace with the fact that some monasteries really NEED to die and desapear for the sake of the future. God has new life and is looking for hands willing to receive the gift ... while of course remaining faithful to a tradition which is centuries old but is not an absolute value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Orans' date='11 November 2009 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1257910335' post='2000151'] "Been there done -or rather suffered- that!!!!!" This is one of the HUGE problems I see with survival of autonomous monasteries versus the wider frame of Congregations. This is such a small group of women, often with little education or life experience -the old ones at least- living in a routine that makes them officially "holy". Why would Reverend Mother (do we need to call them that way in the XXI century?? Isn't "Mother" reverent enough?) choose to have to deal with personal or community issues that the candidate stirs by her very presence especially when she has no clue about what to do or how to deal with it? At least there is a basic goodness that makes them realize that it is not the new comer's fault, and are willing to help the candidate make a try in some other place.... But they just can help themselves. I've come to make peace with the fact that some monasteries really NEED to die and desapear for the sake of the future. God has new life and is looking for hands willing to receive the gift ... while of course remaining faithful to a tradition which is centuries old but is not an absolute value. [/quote] I'll address the last point for now - because it is a good one. Someone here has commented on how wonderful St Helen's Carmel is, and yet this community is an amalgm of two other communities, both started by different foundresses. It must have been very hard for them to try to adapt to each other and to accommodate the different ways of doing things, but this might also be giving them more sensitivity and tolerance for others, and could be a very positive thing in the long run. According to Mother at KE, they are always asking KE to come join them too, but KE refuses because they don't want to adapt to any changes at all and they don't want to leave their very traditional monastery for the newer one at St H (they had to rebuild because the old one was falling apart). Kirk Edge keeps telling St H to come join them (because then they will have the home field advantage ) Anyway, it might be that the merging of different communities will be a saving grace for them all in the end. Only God knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DameAgnes Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1257910983' post='2000159'] And I only know about Carmel because I was a Carmelite. [/quote] Ahem. You ARE a Carmelite, Annie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='DameAgnes' date='11 November 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1257914250' post='2000231'] Ahem. You ARE a Carmelite, Annie. [/quote] You are very sweet but the fact is that although I will always be a Carmelite in my heart, I am nothing right now (there's a joke about that, but I won't tell it here). But that's ok. I am under spiritual direction from a wonderful FSSP priest who is taking particularly good care of my soul. He has asked me not to discern anything to do with religious life at the moment as he wants me to take a step back from all of that and to establish a firm foundation in my spiritual life first. He says that he doesn't think I have had any good instruction or formation at all since I first came to the Catholic Church! I tend to agree with him too. That is probably why I have had such a hard time in discernment. I feel very blessed that God has put this priest in my life to guide me at this point in time. The other FSSP priest who helps him is now my regular Confessor, and between the two of them I feel very protected. I have heard it said that "once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite" and I will always carry that in my heart. But I am not a religious and am not discerning religious life at the moment. That may change over time, only God knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='HisChild' date='10 November 2009 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1257906906' post='2000060'] Perhaps that's another case of out of sight, out of mind? Because cloisters are not all that much of an active presence, and of course because they aren't really a contribution to society because all they do is pray all day , one doesn't think of cloistered religious when praying for vocations. I'm lucky. My parish prays for vocations to religious life every weekend. [/quote] Im very new to discerning a possible vocation but one of the first things i thought was which order do I like and people will think well of because no one around me is going to understand a contemplative vocation. Oh she is going to pray all day what a loser she should be helping the poor etc. Those thoughts quickly ended when I said God you pick, I dont care what anyone thinks or will say, you pick where I go if I am to go. With that change in attitude, of starting to try to do God`s will, the Carmelites went from being the last place Id ever consider to the first. One of the things that has to be done then is work to get rid of the stimga attached to contemplative life. The stimga that they are lazy losers who have little to no education, no interpersonal skills, and no luck in the rest of their life so a convent is like palce to put women who cant survive the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Orans' date='10 November 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1257910335' post='2000151'] "Been there done -or rather suffered- that!!!!!" This is one of the HUGE problems I see with survival of autonomous monasteries versus the wider frame of Congregations. This is such a small group of women, often with little education or life experience -the old ones at least- living in a routine that makes them officially "holy". Why would Reverend Mother (do we need to call them that way in the XXI century?? Isn't "Mother" reverent enough?) choose to have to deal with personal or community issues that the candidate stirs by her very presence especially when she has no clue about what to do or how to deal with it? [/quote] The date on the calendar is not a reason to throw out the term Reverend Mother, Prioress etc. Edited November 11, 2009 by vee8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1257915135' post='2000257'] You are very sweet but the fact is that although I will always be a Carmelite in my heart, I am nothing right now (there's a joke about that, but I won't tell it here). But that's ok. I am under spiritual direction from a wonderful FSSP priest who is taking particularly good care of my soul. He has asked me not to discern anything to do with religious life at the moment as he wants me to take a step back from all of that and to establish a firm foundation in my spiritual life first. He says that he doesn't think I have had any good instruction or formation at all since I first came to the Catholic Church! I tend to agree with him too. That is probably why I have had such a hard time in discernment. I feel very blessed that God has put this priest in my life to guide me at this point in time. The other FSSP priest who helps him is now my regular Confessor, and between the two of them I feel very protected. I have heard it said that "once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite" and I will always carry that in my heart. But I am not a religious and am not discerning religious life at the moment. That may change over time, only God knows. [/quote] I too have heard "Once a Carmelite, always a Carmelite". From the time I was enrolled in the scapular, I knew that my vocation whatever turn it would take, I would be Carmelite even if that meant Secular Carmelite. It sounds like you are blessed with a wonderful spiritual formation. Do they give you lessons, ie: reading, etc? As it would happen, I just sat down with my pastor last night for the first time. I didn't realize what a prayer warrior that man is! Like you, my pastor told me to slow down and allow God to work. He thought I was rushing things. So we prayed together and I really think this is going to be a fabulous association/relationship between director and directee. He doesn't do much SD, but I said, 'well here's where I am and you tell me if you'd like to assist.' At the end, he asked me to make another appt so I'm very edified by that. I walked out of his office feeling better than I had in months. I think it has to do with having a disinterested party talk with me... the only thing he's interested in is my soul. You know? God is great, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orans Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='vee8' date='11 November 2009 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1257915840' post='2000279'] The date on the calendar is not a reason to throw out the term Reverend Mother, Prioress etc. [/quote] I see a proper place for the term Mother, Prioress, Sister, etc., which help with keeping necessary boundaries in a community. But regreatably we all are human and when we go from what is necessary to what is "nice" -and we all want to be "nice" with the people who makes the decisions affecting "my" life- then we get into dysfunctional issues of which the Church and convent life is packed -as well as any human association- If we add "reverend" to "Mother" then it should also be added to "Sister", and to everyone who shows up at the monastery door. Being the "Mother" in a community is already a title of dignity as well as a task and a responsibility. Just a little clarification on my take. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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