"the Nun"?

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' date='23 November 2009 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1259028948' post='2008301']
In anyone`s experience have they come across a community that still has the book of faults, no mirrors, and no thinking or talking about your past?
[/quote]

Yes to the first two regarding no mirrors, the book of faults and Chapter of faults we had Both in the Missionaries of Charity as well as Carmel in addition there was a spontaneous speaking of faults when an infraction was committed as well as private and public penances. However we could speak of our past as long as we did not monopolize the conversation and what was said was edifying and charitable. Although with superiors and maybe a sister friend we could be open about anything and ask permission to talk. It was just a no no during common recreation.

Indwelling Trinity

[humbleheart]

In the Poor Clare monastery that I was discerning with, there are no mirrors. I don't think the sisters note their faults down in a book, but they have the Chapter of Faults almost every day. As for talking about the past, the sisters all know one another's histories, but they aren't nostalgic about them. They are very matter-of-fact. For example, one sister wanted a translation of a German prayer that she had been sent, and another sister said, "Oh, Sister Y used to be a teacher in Berlin - let's ask her."

It gets difficult to speak too much about your life pre-monastery. When I was there for a visit, the sisters asked me a lot of questions about my life, my family, etc. I think they were hoping to put me at my ease. I quickly got to feel very uncomfortable, as though it wasn't appropriate for me to be soaking up so much attention in such a place. I mentioned this to the novice mistress, and she laughed and said that the biggest challenge for many aspirants is the sisters' determination to make them feel at home!

Edited November 24, 2009 by humbleheart

[vee]

This has been very interesting to read and think about for me, and an excellent way to prepare a little bit if I ever actually do a live in or even become a postulant. The joy and laughter that you guys describe is a huge omission in The Nuns Story then which makes convent life look miserable and dehumanizing.

[HisChild]

Well, from a purely entertaining perspective, I think they had to make it more somber to have it make sense to the general public that she'd live religious life. Not that I agree with their tactics, but... the entire movie was somber, even before she entered. So it makes sense that the entire tone of the film would be the same.

[CatherineM]

The Nun Story was based on a true story. The woman involved met the author in a refugee camp after the war. The two of them ended up in a lesbian relationship that lasted the rest of their lives. That might have led to some of her difficulties in the convent.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='HisChild' date='25 November 2009 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1259112696' post='2008893']
Well, from a purely entertaining perspective, I think they had to make it more somber to have it make sense to the general public that she'd live religious life. Not that I agree with their tactics, but... the entire movie was somber, even before she entered. So it makes sense that the entire tone of the film would be the same.
[/quote]


I don't doubt that things were very sombre then. I am reading a book about the seminary in Sydney pre-Vat I and in those days religious life (even for diocesan seminarians) was a very serious business, and laughter was not encouraged. The Council actually did serve as a reform in many ways to humanize religious life. But as in all things, there are pluses and minuses that emerged from those reforms. I think that most religious communities are more aware now of the human needs of their members, as well as the spiritual needs.

[HisChild]

That's right! I forgot about that! I just finished reading a biography of Audrey Hepburn and in it there was a mention of two women that were living together of whom Audrey was lifetime friends. It was never clear these two women's relationship, until I googled and found out.

[By His Grace Alone]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='24 November 2009 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1259113079' post='2008900']
The Nun Story was based on a true story. The woman involved met the author in a refugee camp after the war. The two of them ended up in a lesbian relationship that lasted the rest of their lives. That might have led to some of her difficulties in the convent.
[/quote]

I simply could not remain quiet after reading this absolutely slanderous accusation. Just because two women live together does not necessarily mean they are in a lesbian relationship. Marie Louise Habets, the woman whose story closely parallels Sr. Luke's, and Kathryn Hulme were two extremely talented, dedicated, compassionate and thoroughly Catholic women. This is hardly the place I expected to see such slander and gossip perpetuated against two women who are dead and cannot defend themselves, not that I think they would even dignify this rubbish with a response. They both lived in a different time. In the fifties, for instance, it was common for women in the US to dance together at dances. It in NO WAY signaled their sexual orientation!

I feel, and have always felt that The Nun's Story was an accurate depiction of religious life as it was routinely lived before Vatican II. I do no rely on my own perceptions for that statement, but on the comments of numerous religious women that I personally know who actually lived it. It was not meant to be a feel good movie. It was meant to portray one woman's struggle, which it did with uncommon candor. It clearly demonstrated that if you don't have a vocation to that way of life, then no matter how hard you may try to make it work, it simply won't. That is as true today as it was then. Oh, and by the way, more than one of them was led to religious life because of that movie; one who is a Poor Clare Abbess today. For the first time, the veil was pulled back on what happened in the cloister. If most of you did not see any joy in the movie, it was because you didn't want to. The nuns in the Congo were clearly very happy and dedicated, particularly Mother Matilde and Sr. Augustine. While the sequence of events was changed, all the events portrayed in that movie actually happened. She simply could not obey the way her Order expected her to, and she was honest enough to admit it.

I am sure that my comments will have offended one or more of you.........on this forum that seems inevitable. However, I would give you all a bit of advise. Remember that when you point your self-righteous fingers at women who are, unlike most of you, leading and living religious life, remember that there are three of your own fingers pointing back at yourself. Judge not lest ye be judged........something many of you should keep in mind.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='By His Grace Alone' date='25 November 2009 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1259115976' post='2008945']
I simply could not remain quiet after reading this absolutely slanderous accusation. Just because two women live together does not necessarily mean they are in a lesbian relationship. Marie Louise Habets, the woman whose story closely parallels Sr. Luke's, and Kathryn Hulme were two extremely talented, dedicated, compassionate and thoroughly Catholic women. This is hardly the place I expected to see such slander and gossip perpetuated against two women who are dead and cannot defend themselves, not that I think they would even dignify this rubbish with a response. They both lived in a different time. In the fifties, for instance, it was common for women in the US to dance together at dances. It in NO WAY signaled their sexual orientation!

I feel, and have always felt that The Nun's Story was an accurate depiction of religious life as it was routinely lived before Vatican II. I do no rely on my own perceptions for that statement, but on the comments of numerous religious women that I personally know who actually lived it. It was not meant to be a feel good movie. It was meant to portray one woman's struggle, which it did with uncommon candor. It clearly demonstrated that if you don't have a vocation to that way of life, then no matter how hard you may try to make it work, it simply won't. That is as true today as it was then. Oh, and by the way, more than one of them was led to religious life because of that movie; one who is a Poor Clare Abbess today. For the first time, the veil was pulled back on what happened in the cloister. If most of you did not see any joy in the movie, it was because you didn't want to. The nuns in the Congo were clearly very happy and dedicated, particularly Mother Matilde and Sr. Augustine. While the sequence of events was changed, all the events portrayed in that movie actually happened. She simply could not obey the way her Order expected her to, and she was honest enough to admit it.

I am sure that my comments will have offended one or more of you.........on this forum that seems inevitable. However, I would give you all a bit of advise. Remember that when you point your self-righteous fingers at women who are, unlike most of you, leading and living religious life, remember that there are three of your own fingers pointing back at yourself. Judge not lest ye be judged........something many of you should keep in mind.
[/quote]

Marie Louise Habets and Katherine Hulme were partners for over 40 years but whatever the personal relationship between Habets and Hulme, I am sure that it had nothing to do with her decision to leave religious life, since Habits met Hulme after leaving the convent. Habets provided Hulme with the information for the book, so I think we can take it at face value that her main problem was with obedience and leave it at that. She remained friendly with nuns all her life, and even shared the literary rights of her estate with some nuns. I don't think that any discussion of their personal life needs to be undertaken here. The story was good and has inspired women all over the world because of its honesty and frank portrayal of the hardships of religious life. I am sure there were many times of joy for her as well, but the book was about her struggle, so this is what it focused on.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='By His Grace Alone' date='24 November 2009 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1259115976' post='2008945']
I simply could not remain quiet after reading this absolutely slanderous accusation. Just because two women live together does not necessarily mean they are in a lesbian relationship. Marie Louise Habets, the woman whose story closely parallels Sr. Luke's, and Kathryn Hulme were two extremely talented, dedicated, compassionate and thoroughly Catholic women. This is hardly the place I expected to see such slander and gossip perpetuated against two women who are dead and cannot defend themselves, not that I think they would even dignify this rubbish with a response. They both lived in a different time. In the fifties, for instance, it was common for women in the US to dance together at dances. It in NO WAY signaled their sexual orientation!

I feel, and have always felt that The Nun's Story was an accurate depiction of religious life as it was routinely lived before Vatican II. I do no rely on my own perceptions for that statement, but on the comments of numerous religious women that I personally know who actually lived it. It was not meant to be a feel good movie. It was meant to portray one woman's struggle, which it did with uncommon candor. It clearly demonstrated that if you don't have a vocation to that way of life, then no matter how hard you may try to make it work, it simply won't. That is as true today as it was then. Oh, and by the way, more than one of them was led to religious life because of that movie; one who is a Poor Clare Abbess today. For the first time, the veil was pulled back on what happened in the cloister. If most of you did not see any joy in the movie, it was because you didn't want to. The nuns in the Congo were clearly very happy and dedicated, particularly Mother Matilde and Sr. Augustine. While the sequence of events was changed, all the events portrayed in that movie actually happened. She simply could not obey the way her Order expected her to, and she was honest enough to admit it.

I am sure that my comments will have offended one or more of you.........on this forum that seems inevitable. However, I would give you all a bit of advise. Remember that when you point your self-righteous fingers at women who are, unlike most of you, leading and living religious life, remember that there are three of your own fingers pointing back at yourself. Judge not lest ye be judged........something many of you should keep in mind.
[/quote]
I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm not the gossiping kind. I actually love the Nun's Story, and when I was younger had visions that she had returned to Africa and married the doctor. I saw lots of joyous members of her order in the story, just not her, because she wasn't meant to be in religious life in the first place, for whatever reason.

As to her relationship, what I said came from hearing a speech the surviving partner gave at a conference I attended in Arizona. To be honest, I can't remember now which of the two it was, but the other had died not long before hand. There are other printed interviews on the same subject. I would never automatically assume any such relationship based on living arrangements. I lived 15 years with a female roommate before marrying, and had many if not most people who first met us automatically assume we were lesbians. It didn't help that I had a number of gay clients at the time, and attended many of their funerals at the gay church.

I'm not someone who hates gays and lesbians, and screams that they are going straight to hell. I guess it never dawned on me that anyone would be offended by my mentioning something that is common knowledge, because I don't consider the revelation offensive. I will however be much more careful with such things in the future in the Vocation Station.

[HisChild]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='24 November 2009 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1259119785' post='2008984']
I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm not the gossiping kind. I actually love the Nun's Story, and when I was younger had visions that she had returned to Africa and married the doctor. I saw lots of joyous members of her order in the story, just not her, because she wasn't meant to be in religious life in the first place, for whatever reason.

As to her relationship, what I said came from hearing a speech the surviving partner gave at a conference I attended in Arizona. To be honest, I can't remember now which of the two it was, but the other had died not long before hand. There are other printed interviews on the same subject. I would never automatically assume any such relationship based on living arrangements. I lived 15 years with a female roommate before marrying, and had many if not most people who first met us automatically assume we were lesbians. It didn't help that I had a number of gay clients at the time, and attended many of their funerals at the gay church.

I'm not someone who hates gays and lesbians, and screams that they are going straight to hell. I guess it never dawned on me that anyone would be offended by my mentioning something that is common knowledge, because I don't consider the revelation offensive. I will however be much more careful with such things in the future in the Vocation Station.
[/quote]

I too have read more than one printed interview about these two women and read the same as you did. I thought it was common knowledge as well and I did not find your post offensive. At all.

I don't think you have to be careful about your posts as you did nothing wrong.

God bless you,

HC

[Two Hearts]

+

Wanted to mention that we have The Nun's Story on DVD - it was a gift a few years ago when it first came out as a Limited Edition.

As for the movie - I found much joy, even in some of the nuns who seemed quite serious and severe - for the most part, one could see an inner peace & joy. I'd hate to say Sr Luke did not have a vocation as we cannot know God's plan for her or how she followed or perhaps was unable to follow. As a teenager discerning religious life, I so wanted to be Sr Luke and go to Africa, yet somehow understood it was her struggle with religious life, not a negative film about that way of life.

I did not become an apostolic missionary, but rather a contemplative, holding all missions near in heart and prayer every moment of each day. By the time our name day arrived, I did not even request Luke as one of the 3 names we were permitted to submit to Mother.

Lovingly yours in the Two Hearts.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Two Hearts

[Indwelling Trinity]

Gee guys... I may be either very dense or naive but I looked up both Hulme and Habets the writer and the sister. and i found no indication saying they were lesbian. Am I missing something? Just because two women live together does not necessarily make them gay. I mean think of all the trials they bore together during the war. Maybe that just bonded their friendship into an innocent but deeply loving one.

I mean I have sister friends who I love and send hugs and kisses etc... but I can assure you I am no lesbian. In fact in all my years as a religious I have only met two sisters who were openly gay and not from my own communities. So Hulme and Habets lived together.. so what? That does not imply anything sexual.

When I was a teenager I used to hang out all the time with a guy who was my very best friend, we slept over each other's parents houses, Traveled , went camping together and everything best friends do but there was no sexual relationship. Can't things just be innocent and not always perceived as jaded?

I mean even 19 years after leaving the convent Habets went to give the convent another try and both women remained faithful Catholics until death. So may be I am missing something here but I would at least give the dead the benefit of the doubt.

In the eastern church for example many monks live two together as hermits. Does that make them gay?

Confused here.... scratches head. Maybe I am just dumb.

Hugs

Indwelling Trinity

Edited November 26, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Two Hearts]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='25 November 2009 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1259199825' post='2009484']
Gee guys... I may be either very dense or naive but I looked up both Hulme and Habets the writer and the sister. and i found no indication saying they were lesbian. Am I missing something? Just because two women live together does not necessarily make them gay. I mean think of all the trials they bore together during the war. Maybe that just bonded their friendship into an innocent but deeply loving one.

I mean I have sister friends who I love and send hugs and kisses etc... but I can assure you I am no lesbian. In fact in all my years as a religious I have only met two sisters who were openly gay and not from my own communities. So Hulme and Habets lived together.. so what? That does not imply anything sexual.

When I was a teenager I used to hang out all the time with a guy who was my very best friend, we slept over each other's parents houses, Traveled , went camping together and everything best friends do but there was no sexual relationship. Can't things just be innocent and not always perceived as jaded?

I mean even 19 years after leaving the convent Habets went to give the convent another try and both women remained faithful Catholics until death. So may be I am missing something here but I would at least give the dead the benefit of the doubt.

In the eastern church for example many monks live two together as hermits. Does that make them gay?

Confused here.... scratches head. Maybe I am just dumb.

Hugs

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]

I must be dumb too. How wonderful to have such a friend as they had on one another. I know of many women who live together, are very dear friends, but not lesbians. It honestly never occurred to me anyone would think anything about such a living arrangement.

Blessed Thanksgiving!

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Two Hearts' date='25 November 2009 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1259190587' post='2009439']
+

Wanted to mention that we have The Nun's Story on DVD - it was a gift a few years ago when it first came out as a Limited Edition.


[/quote]
Our DVD version came as a double feature with "Shoes of the Fisherman."