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Cloistered Nuns


Margaret Mary

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Margaret Mary

I was wondering if anyone has ever discerned with a cloistered order that does not have a live-in? How does this work? Not including writting letters, are you ever able to meet the community and talk with them before entering?

Thanks!

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TotusTuusMaria

[quote name='Margaret Mary' date='01 December 2009 - 10:30 AM' timestamp='1259677814' post='2012471']
I was wondering if anyone has ever discerned with a cloistered order that does not have a live-in? How does this work? Not including writting letters, are you ever able to meet the community and talk with them before entering?

Thanks!
[/quote]

You write letters, speak over the phone perhaps, and then when you do visit you should always get to meet the Mother Prioress and possibly other sisters in the parlor/meeting room with the grill.

[img]http://www.dioceseofknoxville.org/userfiles/image/march22.2009/bishopwithCarmelites.gif[/img]

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As far as I know, most communities other than Poor Clares and some really strict Carmels, allow live-ins IF you are in the serious stages of discernment, have your paperwork in and it appears as if you are going to enter.

After having lived in community (active) and currently in the process of transferring into a cloistered order, I would not advise joining a community that does not allow a live-in.

I understand that is what being a postulant is for, but I think sometimes the community (especially those in leadership) don't fully appreciate what it takes to actually move (to the convent/monastery), let alone what it takes to return if things don't work out. At one time, I was the Vocation Director for my own community and even under the best of circumstances (women with a good support system, family, etc.) "discovering" the life isn't for you is a really painful and difficult process.

I know a lot of communities take a hard line on this but there is plenty of good, solid, orthodox theological as well as Canon Law support to prove otherwise.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Macies
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Thomist-in-Training

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' date='01 December 2009 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1259679820' post='2012482']
You write letters, speak over the phone perhaps, and then when you do visit you should always get to meet the Mother Prioress and possibly other sisters in the parlor/meeting room with the grill.

[img]http://www.dioceseofknoxville.org/userfiles/image/march22.2009/bishopwithCarmelites.gif[/img]
[/quote]

To add to this more specifically, here is an example of how it might work: Say you live far away. You write, maybe have some phone calls, read up on the order. After a while, you ask to visit and they suggest an available time--usually at least a week if you live far away and are serious about the order. For that time, you stay in a guest area, either attached to the building but outside the enclosure, or a separate house on the property. You probably attend most of the hours of the Divine Office, Holy Mass, etc, in the extern chapel; they lend you a breviary. You might have one or two conferences (half an hour to a few hours) each day in the parlor with the superior or one of the sisters charged with formation. Sometimes you might meet all the sisters at the grille? I don't know if that's usual.

Macies certainly has more experience than me. I have only hearsay to offer, but women have and still do join and are happy without having a visit inside. Mother Mary Francis joined the Poor Clares in Chicago sight unseen! She hadn't even visited externally! Of course things were different in the 50s when she joined...
A Poor Clare novice I met last year told me she came for her visit and spoke for half an hour at the grille with the sister who's basically the sub-prioress, and after that, she knew she wanted to enter! I mean, there are a lot of things about religion that--I was going to say seem crazy--ARE crazy by worldly standards. So in some cases this may be just another one of them... but Macies is probably right that it helps to have a visit inside.

<long personal rant>
I have a funny situation actually :sweat: I was discerning with one cloistered order. Then, my idea was "it's almost like cheating to visit inside first... less romantic." But the Novice Mistress offered me two weeks inside in the summer and I was thrilled to accept. Then, they changed novice mistresses. The new one--whom I knew only by letter--seemed colder, and said "I think it's better if you just have a shorter visit outside." As it happened due to circumstances beyond our control it wasn't the thing, so I didn't end up having much of a visit there at all.

After that I was discerning with Poor Clares, who as a rule--after all they have a [i]vow[/i] of enclosure--don't have live-ins. But at the time we agreed I would visit, they had just moved from one monastery to another, and so were not canonically enclosed at that point in time. That meant that I was able to have a live-in with them. Now, they are (or I am) foreign, so it was more different than if it were just an enclosed order. Anyways it was a good thing for me, and in a way I got my wish through a loophole... at least that's how it seems to me, I don't know if it makes sense.
</rant>

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+Praised Be Jesus Christ!

Some of you know that my blood Sister (+RIP) entered religious life [i]later[/i] in life as a Carmelite. Then, God graced our family with TWO vocations to religious life (two daughters, different communities, both contemplative).

I spent a lot of time looking with them (AND my dear Sister!). My husband and I had one hard, fast and firm rule for our daughters - obviously the girls could do ANYTHING they wanted in terms of life and vocation - but IF they wanted our total and complete support and help - we asked for one thing only...that they enter a community that would allow for a live-in experience. Like others have said here and on other threads, most appropriately a live in occurs when a person is very certain this path is for them. (Otherwise...for the peace of the life - who wants to live in a zoo with all kinds of people parading in and out?! Too much and very disruptive - unless, of course, part of the Life includes retreats and hospitality!)Many Carmels that "we" visited allow their applicants to visit, interview, etc., and after the mountains of paperwork, voting and doctors' visits...the applicant then comes to experience the life to return home and ponder the experience and make preparations.

I feel very strongly about this, and encourage all those considering religious life in a cloistered/contemplative/monastic setting to think about the practical aspects of entering a community that you have only met through the grille very seriously.

One of the monasteries we have supported (not Carmelite) recently had a change in leadership. At that time, the community (not sure who made the decision - the Mother Prioress, Vocation Mistress or Council) that live-in's would no longer be possible. This news greatly saddened me, for I believe much good comes from having an opportunity to live and breathe the life, step away ... only to return freely. (Also good for the communities --- I like to think of that old saying about not knowing someone until you have traveled with them! So true!)

Enough of me!

Pax,

TradMom

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On another thread, IIRC, someone mentioned that there are two kinds of enclosure -- Papal and Constitutional. Is there any real difference in the way the cloistered life is lived between the two types? I had always thought that "cloistered" meant "cloistered" [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img]

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[quote name='Antigonos' date='12 December 2009 - 02:56 AM' timestamp='1260600975' post='2018941']
On another thread, IIRC, someone mentioned that there are two kinds of enclosure -- Papal and Constitutional. Is there any real difference in the way the cloistered life is lived between the two types? I had always thought that "cloistered" meant "cloistered" [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Papal enclosure is the strictest, and usually what is thought of when one hears of cloistered nuns. The vows are "solemn" and the most binding. If a nun leaves her vows by papal dispensation, then returns, she is given the black veil of the professed. A letter one cloistered nun saw in regards to dispensation read, "As far as I am able. . ." regarding releasing another nun from her solemn vows.

Women who make solemn vows are properly called "nuns."

Anyone entering the enclosure has to be cleared by the bishop.

Constitutional enclosure is the amount of enclosure set by the constitutions--the document that rules the life lived in the monastery. It can be lived like papal enclosure, though, if that is what is specified. The religious are not called nuns, they are called "sisters."

There's a lot more to it, but that's the basic gist of the differences. I'm sure those who have been either in the cloister or who have worked as externs can explain further.

Blessings,
Gemma

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I'm not sure that part about those living in constitutional enclosure not being nuns is right...but I am not sure. I am pretty sure I know some nuns who are under constitutional enclosure.
Osap...are you around?! I know you know this!

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I spent a few days with some sisters many many years ago. When this kind of visit was first being allowed. One elderly nun told me she didn't agree with this. She was very nice to me and I respected her opinion. It certainly wouldn't have been allowed in her day. And I could see what she meant.

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[quote name='Gemma' date='12 December 2009 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1260632501' post='2019079']
Papal enclosure is the strictest, and usually what is thought of when one hears of cloistered nuns. The vows are "solemn" and the most binding. If a nun leaves her vows by papal dispensation, then returns, she is given the black veil of the professed. A letter one cloistered nun saw in regards to dispensation read, "As far as I am able. . ." regarding releasing another nun from her solemn vows.

Women who make solemn vows are properly called "nuns."

Anyone entering the enclosure has to be cleared by the bishop.

Constitutional enclosure is the amount of enclosure set by the constitutions--the document that rules the life lived in the monastery. It can be lived like papal enclosure, though, if that is what is specified. The religious are not called nuns, they are called "sisters."

There's a lot more to it, but that's the basic gist of the differences. I'm sure those who have been either in the cloister or who have worked as externs can explain further.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]

The Abbey of St. Walburga in CO observes constitutional enclosure but takes solemn vows and so are properly called nuns. That's what they say on their site, at least. [url="http://walburga.org/Novitiate.html"]http://walburga.org/Novitiate.html[/url]

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I'm just going off of what I was told when we were working on the cenobitic expression of the Cloisterites. If the sisters didn't take solemn vows, they could not be called nuns.

Blessings,
Gemma

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[quote name='Gemma' date='13 December 2009 - 02:32 AM' timestamp='1260667930' post='2019445']
I'm just going off of what I was told when we were working on the cenobitic expression of the Cloisterites. If the sisters didn't take solemn vows, they could not be called nuns.

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]

We have solemn vows, are nuns (moniales) and have Monastic Enclosure as defined by our Constitutions. Some communities which had Papal Enclosure in the past now have Monastic Enclosure but the vows remain unaltered. I think Dinklage may be one, but I haven't checked so forgive me if I am misleading anyone. In some ways, Monastic Enclosure can be "stricter" than in some communities which juridically have Papal Enclosure but practically speaking are not able to observe all its requirements. Especially among Benedictines there are differences of interpretation/practice. Some would go so far as to argue that Papal Enclosure is not really Benedictine at all. Where I think we would all agree is that some form of enclosure is absolutely essential for a life of prayer and can't be limited to being understood in purely physical or geographical terms. That said, getting the balance right between withdrawal for the sake of living a closer union with God and being open to the many needs of people who seek our help is difficult, but Benedictines have a special obligation to hospitality so I suppose we should expect that. I have noticed that in the UK for some perverse reason nuns are often called sisters and sisters often called nuns. We don't mind too much, except when people ask us to do things we can't (e.g. take Holy Communion to sick members of the parish).

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[quote name='kavalamyself' date='12 December 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1260649390' post='2019256']
I'm not sure that part about those living in constitutional enclosure not being nuns is right...but I am not sure. I am pretty sure I know some nuns who are under constitutional enclosure.
Osap...are you around?! I know you know this!
[/quote]
Well thanks for the vote of confidence, kavalamyself. Two others have already weighed in with the proper information, but I'll go ahead and add my own .02. Yes indeed a community can be constitutionally enclosed and have solemn vows. There are lots of them around - especially among Benedictines (as DigitalDame has explained). Anyone with solemn vows is a Moniale (nun). I don't know about every community but I can tell you that one constitutionally enclosed community of solemnly professed nuns with which I am very familiar, needs the permission of the Bishop for anyone to enter the enclosure.

One easy way to explain the difference (explained to me succinctly by a Poor Clare) is that with Papal Enclosure the nuns are required to have a physical separation between herself and "the world"....for instance the grille (the most common form of this separation) but it can be something else...for instance in Langhorn, PA the Poor Clare's parlors have a "desk like" structure between them and their guests......the nuns and guests enter the parlor through different doors (on different sides of the enclosure). The REQUIREMENT for a physical separation of this kind does not exist when requesting approval of constitutional enclosure (though I suppose a community could write it into their constitutions - <smile>). Hence, for example, you will see constitutionally enclosed nuns (like those in Colorado) visiting "face to face" with their guests.

Gemma, I see from many of your posts that you are careful to seek guidance and information on your journey....but on this point, someone gave you incorrect info.

Pax,
Osap

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