19 replies to this topic

[OraProMe]

I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?

Edited by OraProMe, 12 December 2009 - 11:27 PM.

[Antigonos]

I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?

Actually, this is a misreading of both Testaments. But since I must rush off to work, I will have to reply at length later.

[Pomak]

I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?

Should I presume that since you asked this in the debate table, that this is open for us "Saracens" to answer?

[OraProMe]

Should I presume that since you asked this in the debate table, that this is open for us "Saracens" to answer?

I really just wanted to see how it's explained in Catholic theology but sure, fresh perspectives are always welcome Aslong as someone answers before the thread gets de-railed.

[Varg]

I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me.

Reading this should help.

[Resurrexi]

I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?

God is both all-merciful and all-just.

[little_miss_late]

OraProMe and others, I have a question back at you- when people try to play down the "hard truths" of Christianity by saying stuff like "Jesus was basically just a happy socialist" or "God loves everyone and don't worry about all the rules"-- doesn't it make you cringe a little? Don't you feel like they are missing something?

Because when people say that "the Old Testament God" was all full of punishment and rage, and that there's a New Covenant now and so you don't have to worry about all that other stuff, I cringe inside. In those days, there was no King in Israel. But it's not like there wasn't God.

[OraProMe]

OraProMe and others, I have a question back at you- when people try to play down the "hard truths" of Christianity by saying stuff like "Jesus was basically just a happy socialist" or "God loves everyone and don't worry about all the rules"-- doesn't it make you cringe a little? Don't you feel like they are missing something?

Because when people say that "the Old Testament God" was all full of punishment and rage, and that there's a New Covenant now and so you don't have to worry about all that other stuff, I cringe inside. In those days, there was no King in Israel. But it's not like there wasn't God.

I never said that and I don't have an agenda either way. I would just like to know how seemingly contradictory statements about God's nature, that Catholics believe God himself revealed through the bible, sit with eachother.

[JimR-OCDS]

Although Scripture is the inspired word of God, the inspiration was given to human beings,
who described the revelations they received, according to their ability, and in the context of their
culture and limited human understanding..

In the Old Testament, we have God described with the mindset of ancient tribal theology.

In the New Testament, we have God as revealed to us through Jesus Christ.

Both speak of the same God, because there is only one God. However in Jesus Christ, he brings us
God from his own divine nature.

Jim

[Servus_Mariae]

Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.

The state of humanity prior to the fall was one of total unjustified perversion. Sacrifices and oblation were offered in reparation for sin over and over again...because humanity was in constant need. Those who did not offer sacrifice inherited one from God's wrath as the means for their atonement and the satisfaction of God's justice.

Likewise, after redemption, mankind was categorically justified by the death of Christ. Thus, mercy reigns. Certainly, justice is still fulfilled in the event of an unrepentant sinner unwillingness to receive the mercy offered(whether it be temporal by allowing him to endure the consequence of sin which is always destructive, or eternal in damnation). Nonetheless, God's vengeance is no longer demanded in the same way age of mercy merited by the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

Edited by Servus_Mariae, 13 December 2009 - 05:37 PM.

[JimR-OCDS]

Servus_Mariae

Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.

Agree, humans evolved spiritually as well as biologically.

Jim

[Servus_Mariae]

Servus_Mariae



Agree, humans evolved spiritually as well as biologically.

Jim

That's a good point of reflection...how we would receive Divine activity would have been different as well. Theologically concise doctrine explicating the finer points a fallen human nature would not have been the strong suit of the tribal man. Fire and brimstone is pretty clear though!

[OraProMe]

Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.

The state of humanity prior to the fall was one of total unjustified perversion. Sacrifices and oblation were offered in reparation for sin over and over again...because humanity was in constant need. Those who did not offer sacrifice inherited one from God's wrath as the means for their atonement and the satisfaction of God's justice.

Likewise, after redemption, mankind was categorically justified by the death of Christ. Thus, mercy reigns. Certainly, justice is still fulfilled in the event of an unrepentant sinner unwillingness to receive the mercy offered(whether it be temporal by allowing him to endure the consequence of sin which is always destructive, or eternal in damnation). Nonetheless, God's vengeance is no longer demanded in the same way age of mercy merited by the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

This is a better explanation. Thanks

But do you mean prior to the redemption?

[Servus_Mariae]

This is a better explanation. Thanks

But do you mean prior to the redemption?

That is exactly what I meant...good catch!

[Antigonos]

Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.

The state of humanity prior to the fall was one of total unjustified perversion. Sacrifices and oblation were offered in reparation for sin over and over again...because humanity was in constant need. Those who did not offer sacrifice inherited one from God's wrath as the means for their atonement and the satisfaction of God's justice.

Likewise, after redemption, mankind was categorically justified by the death of Christ. Thus, mercy reigns. Certainly, justice is still fulfilled in the event of an unrepentant sinner unwillingness to receive the mercy offered(whether it be temporal by allowing him to endure the consequence of sin which is always destructive, or eternal in damnation). Nonetheless, God's vengeance is no longer demanded in the same way age of mercy merited by the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

I find this explanation fascinating but totally divorced from reality. since I do not see any improvement in the human character, nor any lessening of what you term "God's vengeance". There has been war and sin continually since the beginning of human history, and we've thought up ways of being nasty that the ancients never knew.

Also, I question your statement about the state of humanity "prior to the fall" -- I presume you mean the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden -- being one of "total perversion". For one thing, there were only two people in the world then, and the Garden was idyllic. I presume you mean the generation of the Flood.

Considering that Christians have persecuted the Jews for 2000 years, and when there weren't any Jews around, they turned on each other, I find the idea that "mercy reigns" since the life of Jesus a bit odd.

[Servus_Mariae]

I find this explanation fascinating but totally divorced from reality. since I do not see any improvement in the human character, nor any lessening of what you term "God's vengeance". There has been war and sin continually since the beginning of human history, and we've thought up ways of being nasty that the ancients never knew.

My point wasn't that human character has magically improved by the sacrifice of Christ but simply that by His sacrifice God's justice has been satisfied. In this way, God's "vengeance" is not direct but is now indirect. This was my goal in offering a distinction between allowing a person "to reap what he sows" by letting the natural consequences of his sin unfold and contrastingly God's utilization of fire and brimstone. This direct approach is no longer demanded as God's intervention in the world's redemption was accomplished by Christ once and for all. Thus, what I meant by God's "vengeance" was his direct scourges upon humanity...why? Because justice demanded it for the sins of the world. Christ died on the cross and this fulfillment of justice was all encompassing, thus no longer evoking God's direct agency in bringing about a scourge. However...sin still exists. The manner in which we atone for them is by way of repentance and a "tapping" in so to speak of God's Mercy available because His justice has been satisfied.

Also, I question your statement about the state of humanity "prior to the fall" -- I presume you mean the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden -- being one of "total perversion". For one thing, there were only two people in the world then, and the Garden was idyllic. I presume you mean the generation of the Flood.

I made a mistake in my wording...Ora corrected me. I meant prior to redemption (I was thinking "fall of man" and then crossed wires when I typed).

Considering that Christians have persecuted the Jews for 2000 years, and when there weren't any Jews around, they turned on each other, I find the idea that "mercy reigns" since the life of Jesus a bit odd.

In matters of conduct...we are still fallen. This has not changed. Mercy now reigns in the sense that God's mercy has been merited by Christ, His justice has been satisfied and all a soul must do is repent and in sin no more to receive it.

Your above example is a testament to the "fallenness" of man...not of a lack of mercy on the part of God. This is a case, all to common in our history, of Christians who in Christianity suggest that they avail themselves to God's mercy and then don't turn to it..or think they are not in need of it.

[scardella]

What you see over the course of the history of the OT going into the NT is a progressively deeper unveiling of God's identity over time, culminating in the ultimate reveal of who He is in the person of Jesus Christ. It is not any change in God Himself, but God revealed Himself slowly over the course of thousands of years to allow man to grow in his understanding progressively. It is a function of God's mercy that He unveiled Himself so slowly.

If he went *POOF* JESUS! DIE! RISE AGAIN! *POOF*, then mankind would likely reject it altogether, not having the proper cultural and emotional context to understand what is going on or appreciate what is happening.

Furthermore, He revealed Himself in the proper order. He first revealed His Justice, so that we would be able to understand His Mercy. Without an understanding of justice, mercy has no meaning. As one unfolds, the other follows.

The law came about so that man could understand his sin and his need for a savior. The law could not save, but it could instruct man in proper living. Its greatest lesson is how imperfect we all are and how weak we all are. It shows man how much he needs God. We all deserve death. We all deserve Hell. The law made this clear.

Even as God's Justice is being established, His Mercy is apparent, even from the beginning. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, they had to face death in justice. However, God also treats them with mercy. He gives them leather garments to hide their shame. Moreover, Gen 3:15 contains the Protoevangelium, God's foretelling of the triumph over death.

When Abraham pleaded for Sodom and Gomorrah, God showed His Mercy when Abraham asked "If there are only 100, 80, 10, etc. righteous people... will you spare Sodom for the sake of the 100, 80, 10, etc.?" However, it was so completely corrupt that not even Lot's wife had been corrupted by their evildoing. Furthermore, God allowed those who were righteous to escape the doom. Such mercy by a god was unknown and amazing at that time.

There are countless others, and I haven't even gotten through Genesis.

I could go on and on about the countless Mercies that God showed His people and even others who were not "his people" throughout the Old Testament. To paint God in the OT as cruel and heartless is, quite simply, ignorant.

[little_miss_late]

+1 especially for:

God revealed Himself slowly over the course of thousands of years to allow man to grow in his understanding progressively. It is a function of God's mercy that He unveiled Himself so slowly.

...

I could go on and on about the countless Mercies that God showed His people and even others who were not "his people" throughout the Old Testament. To paint God in the OT as cruel and heartless is, quite simply, ignorant.

The original question asks about how to reconcile "extreme polar opposites" but I don't see the polar opposites. I see a God who rescued and protected his people, took pity on them again and again, and continually gave them instruction on how to live.

[OraProMe]

+1 especially for:



The original question asks about how to reconcile "extreme polar opposites" but I don't see the polar opposites. I see a God who rescued and protected his people, took pity on them again and again, and continually gave them instruction on how to live.

When I said polar opposites I had the Mosaic laws in mind. I was also thinking of His attributes such as infinite mercy and infinite justice. Justice is dealing out the deserved punishment while mercy is dealing out (or omitting) the deserved punishment. I can't see how these two contradictory attributes can exist in the same being.

[Antigonos]

Perhaps this prayer, quoted below [the link function doesn't seem to be working properly, sorry] from the Middle Ages, will illustrate the Jewish thought about God meting out both justice and mercy.

The word "kedusha" means "holiness", and a chazzan is a cantor. The melody for Unetaneh Tokef is exceptionally plaintive and beautiful.

Jews regard the period between Rosh Hashanah, when God weighs the good and bad deeds of each person, and decides their fate for the coming year, and the Day of Atonement, as a time when repentance can affect one's ultimate fate. That's why the traditional blessing for the holiday is "May you be written [in the Book of Life] for a good year".


"Let Us Tell How Utterly
Holy This Day Is"

The Full Text

(Scanned from the ArtScroll Rosh HaShanah Machzor)

The following is the full translated text of the great prayer, "U'Netaneh Tokef," attributed to Rabbi Amnon of Mainz, as related to Rabbi Klonimus ben Meshullam

THE ARK BEING OPEN:

Congregation and chazzan:

So now, the Kedushah prayer shall ascend to You, for You, our God, are King.

Congregation and chazzan:

Let us now relate the power of this day's holiness, for it is amesome and frightening. On it Your Kingship will be exalted; Your throne will be firmed with kindness and You will sit upon it in truth. It is true that You alone are the One Who judges, proves, knows, and bears witness; Who writes and seats, (counts and calculates); Who remembers all that was forgotten. You will open the Book of Chronicles - it will read itself, and everyone's signature is in it. The great shofar will be sounded and a still, thin sound will be heard. Angels will hasten, a trembling and terror will seize them - and they will say, 'Behold, it is the Day of Judgment, to muster the heavenly host for judgment!'- for they cannot be vindicated in Your eyes in judgment.

Chazzan:

All mankind will pass before You like members of the flock. Like a shepherd pasturing his flock, making sheep pass under his staff, so shall You cause to pass, count, calculate, and consider the soul of all the living; and You shall apportion the fixed needs of all Your creatures and inscribe their verdict.

Congregation then chazzan [in some congregations this is recited only by the chazzan]:

On Rosh Hashanah will be inscribed and on Yom Kippur will be sealed how many will pass from the earth and how many will be created; who will live and who will die; who will die at his predestined time and who before his time; who by water and who by fire, who by sword, who by beast, who by famine, who by thirst, who by storm, who by plague, who by strangulation, and who by stoning. Who will rest and who will wander, who will live in harmony and who will be harried, who will enjoy tranquillity and who will suffer, who will be impoverished and who will be enriched, who will be degraded and who will be exalted.

Congregation aloud, then chazzan:

But REPENTANCE, PRAYER and CHARITY

Remove the Evil of the Decree!

Congregation and chazzan:

For Your Name signifies Your praise: hard to anger and easy to appease, for You do not wish the death of one deserving death, but that he repent from his way and live. Until the day of his death You await him; if he repents You will accept him immediately.

Chazzan:

It is true that You are their Creator and You know their inclination, for they are flesh and blood. A man's origin is from dust and his destiny is back to dust, at risk of his life he earns his bread; he is likened to a broken shard, withering grass, a fading flower, a passing shade, a dissipating cloud, a blowing wind, flying dust, and a fleeting dream.

Congregation aloud, then chazzan:

But You are the King, the Living and Enduring G-d.

THE ARK IS CLOSED

Congregation then chazzan:

There is no set span to Your years and there is no end to the length of Your days. It is impossible to estimate the angelic chariots of Your glory and to elucidate Your Name's inscrutability. Your Name is worthy of You and You are worthy of Your Name, and You have included Your Name in our name.


The Background

The prayer entitled "U'Netaneh Tokef" is attributed to a Rabbi Amnon of Mainz, Germany, who lived about one thousand years ago. The story behind this piyut, a prayer-poem, is sad and poignant, and may shed light on the prayer itself.

The Bishop of Mainz summoned Rabbi Amnon, a great Torah scholar, to his court and offered him a ministerial post on the condition that Rabbi Amnon would convert to Christianity. Rabbi Amnon refused. The Bishop insisted and continued to press Rabbi Amnon to accept his offer. Of course, Rabbi Amnon continued to refuse. One day, however, Rabbi Amnon asked the Bishop for three days to consider his offer.

As soon as Rabbi Amnon returned home, he was distraught at the terrible mistake he had made of even appearing to consider the Bishop's offer and the betrayal of G-d. For three days he could not eat or sleep and he prayed to G-d for forgiveness. When the deadline for decision arrived, the Bishop sent messenger after messenger to bring Rabbi Amnon, but he refused to go. Finally, the Bishop had him forcibly brought to him and demanded a response. The Rabbi responded, "I should have my tongue cut out for not having refused immediately." The Bishop angrily had Rabbi Amnon's hands and feet cut off and then sent him home.

A few days later was Rosh HaShanah, and Rabbi Amnon, dying from his wounds, asked to be carried to shul. He wished to say the Kedushah to sanctify G-d's Name and publicly declare his faith in G-d's Kingship.With his dying breath, he uttered the words that we now know of as the U'Netaneh Tokef.

Three days later Rabbi Amnon appeared in a dream to Rabbi Kalonymous ben Meshullam, a scholar and poet, and taught him the exact text of the prayer. Rabbi Amnon asked that it be sent to all Jewry and that it be inserted in the prayers of Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur for all time.