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Pliny

Knights Of Columbus Third Degree Ceremony

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Pliny
@whoever made post 52

THANK YOU.

You are right on the money.

And nobody should feel shame or a need to be secretive about what happens in a meeting where one is tricked and manipulated.

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brianthephysicist
I loved my 3rd degree. The secrecy was important for me. If I'd known, I still may have learned something, but it wouldn't have been the same. I would've gone from being a participant to an observer. If that was the case, then they may as well have shown me a movie that I could've ignored. But they didn't want that. They wanted me to be thrown into a situation to actually [i]feel[/i] what they were trying to teach me.

Whether or not I liked or agreed with the lesson they presented, I believe that it is wrong to take that opportunity away from others that feel inclined to experience it.


Also, the degrees are always changing slightly, being tweaked to make sure that they can still emphasize the point that each ceremony is supposed to represent. After each degree that I've been to they served food and we chatted with knights from various councils and we'd always discuss how that particular degree has evolved over time to its present form. I haven't attended it yet, but I've heard there is a new 3rd degree ceremony.

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BigJon16
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1260986008' post='2021813']
Well now I'm all curious. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] I know better than to ask though.
[/quote]

Me too! I want to become a Knight now!

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Odysseus
How can someone feel inclined to experience being tricked?

I can't think of anything the 3rd degree taught me that I didn't already know. If I had it to do over, I would have walked out and enjoyed the sunshine.

What it "might" have taught me is to not give into pressure and manipulation. I saw through it eventually and at that point I should not have allowed the peer pressure to keep me glued to my seat.

I could never in good conscience recommend it to anyone. I would feel that I was part of the deception and manipulation if I did.

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jqvols1
What good is this thread doing anymore? This is something that has been beaten to death around these parts. Whether you agree with the ceremonies or not, you can not disagree with the charity work that the Knights have done for the church and her communities. On the week of Roe vs Wade, let me direct you to this [url="http://www.kofc.org/un/en/prolife/ultrasound/index.html"]http://www.kofc.org/un/en/prolife/ultrasound/index.html[/url] ....enough said.

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BG45
Still never intend to join an organization that requires deception to join, as I said previously. Nor one that almost every time I'm asked to join, tries to sell me insurance, or sell me a "we just hang out" deal. I require Truth and honesty. Edited by BG45

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jqvols1
[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1327685399' post='2376212']
It is disingenious to suggest that the KofC requires deception to join or that they are manipulative. Perhaps some councils have members who are, but the organization as a whole is one of the most highly regarded in the Church today by the Church herself. They are primarily a service oriented fraternal organization and their activities reflect that. They aid in making the Church the most generous organization on earth. Their degree ceremonies are not unlike RCIA. Catechumen for part of the Church were kept out of the mystery of the liturgy of the Eucharist until the night of their initiation.
[/quote]


I can't prop this enough....


I have a couple of more thoughts about this whole discussion.

Everyone on here seems to be getting all bent out of shape about the 3rd degree ceremonies. Here is the deal, no one requires it in order for you to participate with your council. In fact, only 1st degree is required to attend meetings, and have a say in the councils operations. 3rd degree would be required if you wanted to hold any elected position in the council. Deception? Secrecy? Ever been in the Boy Scouts? Order of the Arrow can be described as the same thing! Regardless, most councils tell the participants up front that they are not to share what happens with anyone that hasn't gone through the ceremonies yet. So the keeping of secrets is there from the beginning.


Insurance sales. Well, yes they do try to sell you insurance, but that is one of the things that the order was founded on.

[quote][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]Father McGivney’s founding vision for the Order also included a life insurance program to provide for the widows and orphans of deceased members. The Order’s insurance program has expanded substantially to serve more effectively the Knights’ growing membership.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]Year after year, the Knights of Columbus has earned the highest possible quality ratings for financial soundness from outside ratings agencies. The Order provides the highest quality insurance, annuity and long-term care products to its members, along with many other fraternal benefits.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]


And it is a requirement for every new member to meet with an insurance agent. Some may be pushy, but most are understandable if you have no desire to purchase anything. The Knights are like many organizations in that there are good councils and bad councils, good members and not so good members. Please don't generalize the rest of the knights because your experience with them may not have been the best.

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BG45
Yes, I have been in the boy scouts. Left them due to the fact they were so amoral that it made me want to vomit as a younger guy. I do thank them though for making me decent at Blackjack! :)

I've had good experiences with a few individual knights, but you're right, it's hard not to generalize the whole organization when most I've met are among the worst examples of Catholic morality I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. Those on PM balance them out as being among the best examples.

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Dscherck
I'm a 3rd degree Knight and like the OP, I too was somewhat disturbed by the 3rd degree ceremony. I'll admit it was somewhat disconcerting, but I do understand what they were trying to do for us. And I am fortunate in that my council is pretty active in our community and I feel like I'm making a difference for the Church. I don't know if I would have stayed a Knight if my council hadn't been pretty active following my 3rd degree ceremony.

I've heard that in the last few months they revamped it a bit, so I have to attend another one to see the changes. I've talked to some fellow Knights at my council as well and they all agreed it was a bit disturbing to them too, but they also mentioned that participating in it again, knowing what will happen helps you better understand things.

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Nihil Obstat
[quote name='Odysseus' timestamp='1327640792' post='2376057']
How can someone feel inclined to experience being tricked?

I can't think of anything the 3rd degree taught me that I didn't already know. If I had it to do over, I would have walked out and enjoyed the sunshine.

What it "might" have taught me is to not give into pressure and manipulation. I saw through it eventually and at that point I should not have allowed the peer pressure to keep me glued to my seat.

I could never in good conscience recommend it to anyone. I would feel that I was part of the deception and manipulation if I did.
[/quote]

I wouldn't trust the recommendations of Alfred E. Neuman anyway. :|

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Matthew Simechak
I just did the 3rd degree today. I partook of the "new" 3rd degree. Let me just assure anyone reading this forum that the concerns expressed herein are now moot. I had some Brother Knights explain the "old third degree" so that I could understand what you guys were talking about.

Rest assured that the new 3rd degree is completely different and contains no elements of deception whatsoever.

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jqvols1
[quote name='Matthew Simechak' timestamp='1352088240' post='2504296']
I just did the 3rd degree today. I partook of the "new" 3rd degree. Let me just assure anyone reading this forum that the concerns expressed herein are now moot. I had some Brother Knights explain the "old third degree" so that I could understand what you guys were talking about.

Rest assured that the new 3rd degree is completely different and contains no elements of deception whatsoever.
[/quote]

Even the old 3rd degree wasn't that bad. It served a purpose. Different emphasis on things..

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Matthew Simechak
[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' timestamp='1352093407' post='2504357']

Even the old 3rd degree wasn't that bad. It served a purpose. Different emphasis on things..
[/quote]

Oh, I agree from what I understand. I just wanted to point out that whatever concerns people may have once had about the way it was carried out are no longer an issue with the new degree. For those rare individuals that found the degree unacceptable, they shouldn't have an issue with the new one. Then again, I suppose there are people out there that would be offended by just about anything.

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PadrePioOfPietrelcino
[quote name='Matthew Simechak' timestamp='1352088240' post='2504296']
I just did the 3rd degree today. I partook of the "new" 3rd degree. Let me just assure anyone reading this forum that the concerns expressed herein are now moot. I had some Brother Knights explain the "old third degree" so that I could understand what you guys were talking about.

Rest assured that the new 3rd degree is completely different and contains no elements of deception whatsoever.
[/quote]

I too completed my 3rd degree yesterday, and I completely concur

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Pliny

I just did the 3rd degree today. I partook of the "new" 3rd degree. Let me just assure anyone reading this forum that the concerns expressed herein are now moot. I had some Brother Knights explain the "old third degree" so that I could understand what you guys were talking about.

Rest assured that the new 3rd degree is completely different and contains no elements of deception whatsoever.

 

Cool.  Deception isn't good and it is not necessary to trick a Catholic in order to make a point.

 

I'm happy because of the change for the better.  Our discussion here has borne fruit!

 

Now if we could only do something about the way 4th degree knights dress.  I mean it might be cool to have a sword and all, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing the 4th degree regalia and one of those funny looking hats.

Edited by Pliny

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CatholicsAreKewl

if you're dead, wouldn't you be relatively easy to catch?

 

3rd degree BURN.

Edited by CatholicsAreKewl

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sir_knight



I appreciate your charitible response.

My third degree experience was soon after I converted to Catholicism almost 15 years ago, so this is not something recent, though it has stuck in my craw somewhat.

Up until that point, every Catholic experience I had as a seeker and later as a convert was a good and wonderful experience. What I appreciated most about my seeking into the faith is that it was never pushed. I was always given the space to discern for myself. All Catholic teaching was presented in a reasonable way. I would have resisted any attempt to teach by deception.

You don't need to lock someone in a room all day, and then tell him it was for his own good to teach him about boredom. You don't need to slap somoene on the face to teach him about the need to forgive. You don't need to lie on the ground in my yard pretending to be ill to teach me a lesson about charity and coming to the aid of the sick. All these things can be taught from real life experiences. (And none of these examples have to do with the K of C third degree initiation directly).

I have had the time to reflect on the Third Degree, and even encountered some of the members of the degree team on a K of C bowling tournament, and one of them explained it all to me, but not to my satisfaction. It just seems to me that everyone who is involved buys into it without question.

I will admit that I am in the minority about this. The only other person I know who at the time was strongly against used a crude expression and called it a "mind ****." (He's now a priest, so I hope he's cleaned up his language a little).

I have told my wife all about it and told my sons too. I never used trickery with my sons, and would not be a part of having the tricked by a Catholic organization of all things.

Further, it was not a sin to share that with them, and might very well have been a sin (for me) to NOT share that.

It would not be a sin for me to tell all on the internet, either, though I refrain for now, as I am interested in looking at this from your perspective.

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