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Obama Snubs Netanyahu


Rebecca2009

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[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='26 March 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1269647241' post='2080966']
im not really sure how Canada's and the USA's past in anyway prevents us from stopping giving money to a country that is repeating our past mistakes in the present.[/quote]
Where did I say that the USA or Canada have to give money to Israel? I said quite explicitly that Mr. Obama, as president of the United States, can - with the consent of Congress - break all relations with Israel if he wants to, but for whatever reason he has not done that. Nevertheless, acting immature by storming out of a meeting with an official from another country is simply stupid.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='26 March 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1269647241' post='2080966']
just because Germany's past is sordid, doesnt mean its current citizens(who had nothing to do with the countries past transgressions, in the same way as it is with north america's population.) have to stand quiet when they see something bad happening. or they have to keep giving money to people who are doing bad things with it.[/quote]
Israel is a sovereign country and it can do as it pleases with the territories it has conquered, and that is so regardless of what the United Nations may say. Just as the U.S.A is unlikely to ever give the southwestern part of our country back to Mexico, or give the whole country back to the Indians.


[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='26 March 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1269647241' post='2080966']
like you said in a previous thread, you cant "oppose" past actions, merely deplore them. the actions of Israel are not in the past, they are happening right now, why wouldnt you oppose them?[/quote]
I really do not care what Israel does. They are a self-governing nation and the people of Israel can chose the course of action that they wish to follow.

P.S. - Just because an action is in the past does not alter the moral or immoral nature of the action in question, so if we are going to get on our high horse and preach to Israel that they must return the land that they captured in a war, it follows that we should do the same.

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[quote name='geetarplayer' date='26 March 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1269635959' post='2080847']
I agree with hassan that America has been a little too cozy with Israel throughout history and has maybe overlooked some improprieties by the Israeli government, but I don't understand Obama's motive or intention with this move. It makes him look like either a snob or a coward. I wonder if it was calculated or if he really just lost his cool?
[/quote]
If destabalizes bibi. Harretz did an interesting article months ago about how Netanyahu was out maneuvering obama on the settlements and they were right. He politically slapped Obama around. Now Obama is putting his feet to the fire. By letting relations get so strained so fast over something bibi would have thought he could get away with no problem it starves him of political oxygen. Netanyahu has been pandering to the most extreme right wing of Israeli culture. Now he can see if he really wants them to be his only friends. Unless he's an idiot he knows their program is suacide for Israel. The sooner he stops flirting with them for short term political gain the better. The better for us the better for Israel the better for the region.

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[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 05:42 AM' timestamp='1269645135' post='2080950']
Then the US and Canada should practice what we preach and dismantle all our settlements.


Nope, Americans and Canadians just massacred tens of thousands (possibly millions) of native Americans.


So Americans and Canadians are above the norms that we set for others. How fair minded of us.
[/quote]

Apotheoun, do you personally think that (leaving aside the practical probability of this happening) the USA and Canada are morally obligated to give back the land to the Native Americans and leave North America? (or at least settle for a two-state situation like the Lakota Nation Aloysius once proposed in one of his maps?)

Edited by Innocent
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[quote name='Innocent' date='26 March 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1269653891' post='2081030']
Apotheoun, do you personally think that (leaving aside the practical probability of this happening) the USA and Canada are morally obligated to give back the land to the Native Americans and leave North America? (or at least settle for a two-state situation like the Lakota Nation Aloysius once proposed in one of his maps?)
[/quote]
Nope. I am playing the role of a devil's advocate. I think the U.S. and Canada conquered the regions that they presently inhabit, and they will control those territories until some greater power conquers them. The same goes for Israel.

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eustace scrubb

and here i thought that protestant dispensationalism was the primary reason for america's support for israel... this thread reads like something off the free republic...

:crazy:

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[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 08:23 AM' timestamp='1269654811' post='2081036']
....and they will control those territories until some greater power conquers them. The same goes for Israel.
[/quote]


I hope I understand you correctly: Does that mean that you consider the course of international politics to be simply a history of "dog eat dog," and "might makes right," so to speak, with no hope of expecting any nations ever acting according to moral obligations to rectify past errors at all?

Edited by Innocent
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[quote name='Innocent' date='27 March 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1269674795' post='2081195']
I hope I understand you correctly: Does that mean that you consider the course of international politics to be simply a history of "dog eat dog," and "might makes right," so to speak, with no hope of expecting any nations ever acting according to moral obligations to rectify past errors at all?
[/quote]
I am speaking about reality and not about an ideal world. In reality nations have done terrible things to other nations, e.g., the colonization and destruction of native cultures in the Americas. Should one nation destroy another in order to gain the resources of its adversary? No. But does this occur? Yes.

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='geetarplayer' date='26 March 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1269635959' post='2080847']
I agree with hassan that America has been a little too cozy with Israel throughout history and has maybe overlooked some improprieties by the Israeli government, but I don't understand Obama's motive or intention with this move. It makes him look like either a snob or a coward. I wonder if it was calculated or if he really just lost his cool?
[/quote]
At some point, the administration needs to admit that a community organizer probably doesn't have what it takes to lead diplomatic negotiations.

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Ally ourselves with a stable, patient government or with maniacs who blow themselves up in the midst of civilians and who will gladly turn on us when they get Israel out of the way.

Yeah hard choice that.

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eustace scrubb

I in NO WAY oppose allying ourselves with Israel. What I do believe, however, is that they need to stop treating Palestinians in the occupied territories inhumanely. You guys DO realize that Palestinian Christians and their children are the victims of a lot of this stuff, too, right?


Btw I'm ethnically Jewish and therefore have a vested interest in the existence of Israel. Because if there's an attempt at a holocaust here (or in a country I'm in while traveling abroad), I know better than to rely on another country to take me in...

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geetarplayer

[quote name='eustace scrubb' date='27 March 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1269708185' post='2081351']
I in NO WAY oppose allying ourselves with Israel. What I do believe, however, is that they need to stop treating Palestinians in the occupied territories inhumanely. You guys DO realize that Palestinian Christians and their children are the victims of a lot of this stuff, too, right?


Btw I'm ethnically Jewish and therefore have a vested interest in the existence of Israel. Because if there's an attempt at a holocaust here (or in a country I'm in while traveling abroad), I know better than to rely on another country to take me in...
[/quote]
I'm with you 100%. Israel has a right to exist, but that doesn't excuse their abuse of Palestinians.

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[quote name='Winchester' date='27 March 2010 - 09:49 AM' timestamp='1269697757' post='2081274']
Ally ourselves with a stable, patient government or with maniacs who blow themselves up in the midst of civilians and who will gladly turn on us when they get Israel out of the way.

Yeah hard choice that.
[/quote]

That's a straw man and you know it

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[quote name='Hassan' date='27 March 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1269734337' post='2081642']
That's a straw man and you know it
[/quote]
No, it's not. Palestinians have proven themselves as a group willing to elect terrorists to leadership. They cooperate and aid terrorists and intentionally target noncombatants, fight from such things as occupied kindergartens and then beesh when the Israelis fight back. I wouldn't trust Palestine with a day old donut.

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Lilllabettt

Y'all don't seriously think Obama is a Muslim, right. I mean y'all are just trying to be funny or something. Right.

But I know, I know I know. If he IS a Muslim, then we definitely can't trust him to handle stuff re: Israel/Palestine.

Because you know, Henry Kissinger, (the Jewish dude) was totally not involved in shuttle diplomacy over there ... (fyi this is me trying to be funny or something)

I'm glad the Israeli PM got a dressing down.

That's what happens when you publicly humiliate an American diplomatic mission.

You get your comeuppance.

Remember Villepin? French foreign minister who sandbagged Colin Powell? He got his, too.

Do you guys understand what a "diplomatic incident" is?

It has almost nothing to do with who the President of the United States happens to be, and almost nothing to do with who the PM of Israel happens to be.

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[quote name='Winchester' date='27 March 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1269734967' post='2081654']
No, it's not. Palestinians have proven themselves as a group willing to elect terrorists to leadership. They cooperate and aid terrorists and intentionally target noncombatants, fight from such things as occupied kindergartens and then beesh when the Israelis fight back. I wouldn't trust Palestine with a day old donut.
[/quote]

Sharon.

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