The Pope, The Scandals, And The Media

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 March 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1269636579' post='2080856']
Yes. I am not speaking of removing the Pope. As God Conquers said above, a bad Pope would just hold on to his office no matter the consequences for the Church. An honest Pope would deal with the situation. That is what I am asking about, how would the Church deal with the situation.
[/quote]
It would handle the situation as it always has . . . by trusting in God's providence.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='26 March 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1269635946' post='2080846']
a scandal like that would be quite a wound to the church, not "just a flesh wound"
well, if you were to trust in the Holy Spirit and abstain from an actual bandage or stitches, it would eventually stop bleeding, when you are dead. Or you might survive with a disfiguring scar.

i think lack of a practical intervention by the church in such a hypothetical situation would have much the same results.
[/quote]
Yeah. We saw how the Church is affected by media controversy during the furor over the lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX Bishops. In fact, the Pope makes specific mention of the controversy in his letter about the lifting of the excommunications:

[quote]...I have been told that consulting the information available on the internet would have made it possible to perceive the problem early on. I have learned the lesson that in the future in the Holy See we will have to pay greater attention to that source of news. I was saddened by the fact that even Catholics who, after all, might have had a better knowledge of the situation, thought they had to attack me with open hostility. ...

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html[/quote]
A Papal scandal would have much more controversy than the controversy over the SSPX excommunications. The Church could not just ignore the controversy as though it's not happening.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Era Might

[geetarplayer]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 March 2010 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1269636755' post='2080858']
It would handle the situation as it always has . . . by trusting in God's providence.
[/quote]
It would certainly be a sign that the Church needs more humility and charity.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 March 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1269636755' post='2080858']
It would handle the situation as it always has . . . by trusting in God's providence.
[/quote]
And you accuse me of quietism.

[kamiller42]

I think in the hypothetical, the pope wouldn't and shouldn't resign. Would it be poor handling of a situation? Yes. Is he completely culpable? No. He was more than likely advised to do what he did, usually by lawyers and psychologists. This would be an error in pastoral care. He would have failed to properly protect the Lord's sheep. He did not maliciously seek out to do harm.

I seem to remember the first pope need a little correction from Paul about a pastoral issue. He's still pope.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='26 March 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1269636990' post='2080868']
I think in the hypothetical, the pope wouldn't and shouldn't resign. Would it be poor handling of a situation? Yes. Is he completely culpable? No. He was more than likely advised to do what he did, usually by lawyers and psychologists. This would be an error in pastoral care. He would have failed to properly protect the Lord's sheep. He did not maliciously seek out to do harm.

I seem to remember the first pope need a little correction from Paul about a pastoral issue. He's still pope.
[/quote]
You make an interesting reference to St. Paul, which raises two considerations in my mind:

1) St. Peter's failure was not connected to sexual abuse. It was quite a different situation.

2) I wonder if any Bishop today would be so bold as to rebuke the Pope as St. Paul did to St. Peter. And the larger question here, of course, is what would be the Bishops' role in such a situation? Would they rebuke the Pope, would they seek to defend him, would they pressure him to resign, etc. There's a lot of issues here. The Bishops would be important in such a situation, because they are also leaders in the Church.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Era Might

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 March 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1269637519' post='2080873']
You make an interesting reference to St. Paul, which raises two considerations in my mind:

1) St. Peter's failure was not connected to sexual abuse. It was quite a different situation.[/quote]
The essence of the situations are the same, to make a correct judgment about an issue concerning those under his care. The situations would be completely different if it was B16 committing the crime. That could be an interesting question.

If a pope was found to have committed a crime, say fatally shot someone, could he be made to resign?

[quote]2) I wonder if any Bishop today would be so bold as to rebuke the Pope as St. Paul did to St. Peter. And the larger question here, of course, is what would be the Bishops' role in such a situation? Would they rebuke the Pope, would they seek to defend him, would they pressure him to resign, etc. There's a lot of issues here. The Bishops would be important in such a situation, because they are also leaders in the Church.[/quote]
In private, probably. Never in public I hope.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='26 March 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1269638743' post='2080891']
The essence of the situations are the same, to make a correct judgment about an issue concerning those under his care. The situations would be completely different if it was B16 committing the crime.[/quote]
St. Peter was rebuked basically for playing sides between Jews and Gentiles.

In the hypothetical situation we are discussing, the Pope would have been implicated in responsibility for sexual abuse scandals involving Priests.

I don't think the two situations are comparable.

[quote]That could be an interesting question.

If a pope was found to have committed a crime, say fatally shot someone, could he be made to resign?[/quote]
As others have pointed out, no, he can't be made to resign. But he could probably be pressured...and the larger question, I suppose, is whether he should be pressured, and by whom.


[quote]In private, probably. Never in public I hope.
[/quote]
St. Paul rebuked St. Peter in public (see Galatians 2:14).

Part of the problem in this hypothetical situation is that the West has a certain view of the Bishops as the Pope's helpmates who shouldn't cause waves. But historically, particularly in the early Church, were Bishops willing (and expected) to rebuke the Pope and keep him accountable when necessary? I don't think the modern Western Church's conception of the Bishops' role is completely in sync with earlier Church history.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Era Might

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 March 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1269639453' post='2080899']
St. Peter was rebuked basically for [b]playing sides[/b] between Jews and Gentiles.

In the hypothetical situation we are discussing, the Pope would have been implicated in [b]responsibility[/b] for sexual abuse scandals involving Priests.[/quote]
The highlight words require making decisions about circumstances around them. It would be a failure of making the proper managerial decision.

[quote]St. Paul rebuked St. Peter in public (see Galatians 2:14).

Part of the problem in this hypothetical situation is that the West has a certain view of the Bishops as the Pope's helpmates who shouldn't cause waves. But historically, particularly in the early Church, were Bishops willing (and expected) to rebuke the Pope and keep him accountable when necessary? I don't think the modern Western Church's conception of the Bishops' role is necessarily in sync with earlier Church history.
[/quote]
I guess it depends on the error. If it was an error made in public, then a public correction would fit. Otherwise, make it private.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='26 March 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1269639813' post='2080903']I guess it depends on the error. If it was an error made in public, then a public correction would fit. Otherwise, make it private.
[/quote]
Well, in our hypothetical situation, it would be made very public by the media.

And the larger issue that I'm raising is that in our media-driven world...everything is going to be public. It's almost impossible today to have a "private" scandal involving public figures.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Era Might

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 March 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1269636967' post='2080867']
And you accuse me of quietism.
[/quote]
Alas, I am not the source of Roman Catholic canon law. In the Eastern canonical tradition patriarchs can be removed for malfeasance (among other things).

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 March 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1269644636' post='2080944']
Alas, I am not the source of Roman Catholic canon law. In the Eastern canonical tradition patriarchs can be removed for malfeasance (among other things).
[/quote]
Again, I am not talking about someone "removing" the Pope.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Era Might

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 March 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1269645119' post='2080949']
Again, I am not talking about someone "removing" the Pope.
[/quote]
I know that. I was responding to your comments about quietism. I would have no problem with Roman Church law being changed so that the pope can be removed from office for wrong-doing.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='26 March 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1269632071' post='2080776']
The Holy Father is not implicated. Here is an article with an excellent summation of what happened.:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0329.htm
[/quote]
Thank you for that. It's a well researched and cited article. Very informational.