13 replies to this topic

[kafka]

There is a spiritual level of meaning to the ten-stringed lyre or instrument of ten strings often found in the Book of Psalms:

JB
9 God, I sing to you a new song, I play to you on the ten-stringed lyre,

CPDV
{143:9} To you, O God, I will sing a new song. On the psaltery, with an instrument of ten strings, I will sing psalms to you.

The instrument or lyre is the state of sanctifying grace. The ten strings are the ten virtues infused with sanctifying grace at Baptism and perfected at Confirmation. The ten are:

the three infused theological virtues love, faith and hope.

the three infused intellectual virtues wisdom, understanding, knowledge. These three are one and the same as the first three infused gifts of the Holy Spirit which go by the same name.

the four moral (otherwise known as cardinal virtues) prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice. These four are one and the same as the last four infused gifts of the Holy Spirit counsel (prudence), fortitude (same), piety (temperance), fear of the Lord (justice).

The seven may be infused and/or acquired. They are infused by Baptism and strengthened by Confirmation. If one is not baptised, one may acquire them in cooperation with actual graces of the Holy Spirit.

The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit (the three intellectual virtues and four moral/cardinal virtures) are servants of the three theological virtues. Together the ten make up one coherent and interdependent set.

The lyre of sanctifying grace and the ten strings of virtue makes a person beautiful and enables that person to do beautiful works of prayer, self-denial and mercy with ease in harmony with the Holy Spirit.

[Bennn]

Wow, I like that. Sacred Scripture truly is a mystical treasury. You can find something new every day.

[kafka]

Wow, I like that. Sacred Scripture truly is a mystical treasury. You can find something new every day.

Yes! Like exploring a dense forest or diving into a vast ocean.

[Resurrexi]

the four moral (otherwise known as cardinal virtues) prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice. These four are one and the same as the last four infused gifts of the Holy Spirit counsel (prudence), fortitude (same), piety (temperance), fear of the Lord (justice).

Piety is really not the same as temperance, nor is justice exactly the same as fear of the Lord.

[zunshynn]

Piety is really not the same as temperance, nor is justice exactly the same as fear of the Lord.

Yeah, and actually traditionally piety is seen as corresponding with justice and the fear of the Lord corresponds with temperance. They're still not equivalent terms though, there's just a more distinct link between them. Same with counsel and prudence... they are very similar, but not exactly the same, because the infused gifts are the perfection of the corresponding virtue, it's not simply a different name for a different method of classification of the same thing, because they are distinct.

[kafka]

edit. Did not see Zunshynn's post

Edited by kafka, 19 May 2010 - 09:30 AM.

[kafka]

They are one and the same when considered in their infused forms with sanctifying grace which is what I was referring too.

They are related when considered in their acquired forms in cooperation with actual grace for those not in the state of sanctifying grace.

I will explain more maybe, but I do not want to turn this into a debate. Obviously this is a little different theological opinion.

[zunshynn]

They are one and the same when considered in their infused forms with sanctifying grace which is what I was referring too.

They are related when considered in their acquired forms in cooperation with actual grace for those not in the state of sanctifying grace.

I will explain more maybe, but I do not want to turn this into a debate. Obviously this is a little different theological opinion.

Where are you getting this theological opinion from though?

The lessons I've had on moral theology and the virtues were that traditionally charity corresponded with the gift of wisdom, faith with understanding, knowledge with hope, counsel with prudence, the gift of fortitude with the virtue of fortitude, piety with justice and fear of the Lord with temperance.

I really don't understand why you disagree with the traditional connection though. The virtues of religion, penance and obedience are all subcategories of justice, not temperance, because justice has to do with what we owe to God, and temperance has to do with using the gifts of this world as they are intended to be used. Piety is certainly intended to give the grace to act justly and the fear of the Lord definitely gives the grace to realize the proper order of things and to act according to that. The nature of a virtue doesn't change when it is infused.

[kafka]

Where are you getting this theological opinion from though?

The lessons I've had on moral theology and the virtues were that traditionally charity corresponded with the gift of wisdom, faith with understanding, knowledge with hope, counsel with prudence, the gift of fortitude with the virtue of fortitude, piety with justice and fear of the Lord with temperance.

I really don't understand why you disagree with the traditional connection though. The virtues of religion, penance and obedience are all subcategories of justice, not temperance, because justice has to do with what we owe to God, and temperance has to do with using the gifts of this world as they are intended to be used. Piety is certainly intended to give the grace to act justly and the fear of the Lord definitely gives the grace to realize the proper order of things and to act according to that. The nature of a virtue doesn't change when it is infused.

Not all 'traditional' theology is perfect. I'm not sure where you are getting your theological opinions from either. The Magisterium has never taught that there are two different sets of seven. The distinction is in the infused versus acquired form. And I do not agree with the associations you are making, and the nature of infused virtues does in some sense change when infused with sanctifying grace. They are operate in their highest, most perfect, strongest, most durable form that is only possible with sanctifying grace.

I only have a limited time on the net. So maybe I will prepare a post in the next couple of days.

Like I said above with sanctifying grace one is infused with ten virtues:

Theological: love-faith-hope

Intellectual: wisdom, understanding, knowledge (same name)

Moral: Counsel (prudence in its infused and highest form), fortitude, piety (temperance in its infused and highest form), and fear of the Lord (justice in its infused and highest form)

Edited by kafka, 19 May 2010 - 10:29 AM.

[zunshynn]

Not all 'traditional' theology is perfect. I'm not sure where you are getting your theological opinions from either. The Magisterium has never taught that there are two different sets of seven. The distinction is in the infused versus acquired form. And I do not agree with the associations you are making, and the nature of infused virtues does in some sense change when infused with sanctifying grace. They are operate in their highest, most perfect, strongest, most durable form that is only possible with sanctifying grace.

My lessons on the subject were based primarily on Aquinas' model, as well as drawing from Augustine and some Bonaventure. Obviously "traditional" theology is not always perfect, but that doesn't mean that our opinions should contradict the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church at whim. All I asked was where the idea came from, you don't really seem to have explained why you think that conclusion is better. Anyway, this is what he says in the Summa Theologica. There are some other parts too, but these explained it in most detail I think.

From First Part of the Second Part, Q68. Article 4

The gifts of the Holy Ghost perfect man in matters concerning a good life: whereas art is not directed to such matters, but to external things that can be made, since art is the right reason, not about things to be done, but about things to be made (Ethic. vi, 4). However, we may say that, as regards the infusion of the gifts, the art is on the part of the Holy Ghost, Who is the principal mover, and not on the part of men, who are His organs when He moves them. The gift of fear corresponds, in a manner, to temperance: for just as it belongs to temperance, properly speaking, to restrain man from evil pleasures for the sake of the good appointed by reason, so does it belong to the gift of fear, to withdraw man from evil pleasures through fear of God.

Emphasis Mine.


And from Second Part of the Second Part Q.80 Article 1

I answer that, Two points must be observed about the virtues annexed to a principal virtue. The first is that these virtues have something in common with the principal virtue; and the second is that in some respect they fall short of the perfection of that virtue. Accordingly since justice is of one man to another as stated above (Question 58, Article 2), all the virtues that are directed to another person may by reason of this common aspect be annexed to justice. Now the essential character of justice consists in rendering to another his due according to equality, as stated above (Question 58, Article 11). Wherefore in two ways may a virtue directed to another person fall short of the perfection of justice: first, by falling short of the aspect of equality; secondly, by falling short of the aspect of due. For certain virtues there are which render another his due, but are unable to render the equal due. On the first place, whatever man renders to God is due, yet it cannot be equal, as though man rendered to God as much as he owes Him, according to Psalm 115:12, "What shall I render to the Lord for all the things that He hath rendered to me?" On this respect "religion" is annexed to justice since, according to Tully (De invent. ii, 53), it consists in offering service and ceremonial rites or worship to "some superior nature that men call divine." Secondly, it is not possible to make to one's parents an equal return of what one owes to them, as the Philosopher declares (Ethic. viii, 14); and thus "piety" is annexed to justice, for thereby, as Tully says (De invent. ii, 53), a man "renders service and constant deference to his kindred and the well-wishers of his country." Thirdly, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. iv, 3), man is unable to offer an equal meed for virtue, and thus "observance" is annexed to justice, consisting according to Tully (De invent. ii, 53) in the "deference and honor rendered to those who excel in worth."

[kafka]

My lessons on the subject were based primarily on Aquinas' model, as well as drawing from Augustine and some Bonaventure. Obviously "traditional" theology is not always perfect, but that doesn't mean that our opinions should contradict the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church at whim. All I asked was where the idea came from, you don't really seem to have explained why you think that conclusion is better. Anyway, this is what he says in the Summa Theologica. There are some other parts too, but these explained it in most detail I think.

It was rhetorical remark zunshynn.

I do not disagree with Saints or Doctors at whim (as you should well know). I am well aware that this idea was different when I started the post, but I do not always have the time nor the will to explain everything in detail.

Aquinas' works often need some interpretation. And the model I am presenting has support in Sacred Scripture as well as plain reason. Like I said above if I might type out the explanation.

The Magisterium has no definitive teaching on this subject as I far as I know. All we are required to accept is the infallible and non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium, the explicit and implicit teachings of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The writings of Saints and Doctors we are free disagree with since they fall under the fallible teachings of the Church and bear no spiritual authority exercised by the Popes and Bishops.

Edited by kafka, 20 May 2010 - 08:57 AM.

[Bennn]

The Magisterium has no definitive teaching on this subject as I far as I know. All we are required to accept is the infallible and non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium, the explicit and implicit teachings of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The writings of Saints and Doctors we are free disagree with since they fall under the fallible teachings of the Church and bear no spiritual authority exercised by the Popes and Bishops.

It wouldn't be wise to take it too lightly though. They haven't been declared doctors of the Church for nothing.

Just saying...

[Ephrem Augustine]

My lessons on the subject were based primarily on Aquinas' model, as well as drawing from Augustine and some Bonaventure. Obviously "traditional" theology is not always perfect, but that doesn't mean that our opinions should contradict the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church at whim. All I asked was where the idea came from, you don't really seem to have explained why you think that conclusion is better. Anyway, this is what he says in the Summa Theologica. There are some other parts too, but these explained it in most detail I think.

Augustine ties the gifts of the Spirit to the Beatitudes, I do not know that he ties them to the virtues.

Although, I agree that this arrangement as listed in the first post needs work.

[kafka]

It wouldn't be wise to take it too lightly though. They haven't been declared doctors of the Church for nothing.

Just saying...

God is Wisdom. Jesus Christ is Wisdom Incarnate.

All search for truth is ordered toward God who is Truth, and not toward a Saint, Doctor or Father. Their writings illuminate, clarify, reflect, penetrate, etc. the three pillars of the Holy Catholic Faith, which are the explicit and implicit teachings of Sacred Tradition (the Deeds wrought by God in salvation history), Sacred Scripture (the words written by God), and Sacred Magisterium (infallible teachings of the Popes and Bishops inspired by the Spirit). This is God's Revelation which is wrought, written and inspired by Him who is Truth and who is Wisdom. Who is infallible, inerrant, infinite Truth.

The three pillars contain and express infallible and inerrant truths, as well as a fullness and pregnancy of subtle and profound truths which the writings of the Fathers, Doctors, and Saints reflect and transmit in a limited and fallible way.

After all what is in a name? Or what is the name of a human person, compared to the name Jesus Christ who is revealing Himself to us through his deeds in salvation history and his words of Sacred Scripture?

The healthy thing to do theologically is to read all the writings of the Fathers, Saints and Doctors with a critical eye in light of the the three pillars of the Holy Catholic Faith. There is always a possibility that some parts of their writings may be errant or fallible, so it is good to read them with a detached mind. And I think it is wrong to over-exalt any one line or one teaching by any of them. That is placing the letter above the spirit. That said obviously more weight should be placed on their theological opinions since these were very holy men.

The infused virtue of wisdom, also known as the first gift of the Holy Spirit habitually disposes one to penetrate first principles in all things. This virtue especially aids one in penetrating the truths of the three pillars of the Faith as well as the writings of the Saints, Fathers, and Doctors.

As far as that list is concerned, I will put it on my to do list and maybe return to it someday. For now all I will say is that as far as I know the four cardinal virtues (prudence, fortitude, temperance, justice) were assumed by Catholics from the pagans philosophers who did many useful works on moral theology. Though it seems to me that the pagan philosophers were observing either the acquired or infused form of the gifts of the Holy Spirit described in the prophecy of Isaiah as counsel, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord and simply gave them different names as well as a limited explication of them since they did not possess the Wisdom Books and prophecies of the Old Testament. Also notice in the Wisdom Books and throughout Scripture one and same virtue is often given different names for example spiritual love is described as charity, obedience, etc.

Edited by kafka, 21 May 2010 - 10:04 AM.