Church Veils For Women

[abrideofChrist]

The [b][color="#98fb98"]poll [/color][/b]was on whether we wore veils or not. I don't except in obligatory situations where protocol demands it; black full length dress with long sleeves, black shoes, and black mantilla. I voted nay. The [b][color="#98fb98"]question [/color][/b]was how we feel about it. I feel that it is as archaic as separating men and women or Eucharistic fasting from midnight. In no way am I trying to start a debate, I simply saying that my *feelings* are that I also feel with the original poster's family that they look silly (I'm a lacemaker, and those plasticky or machine made triangular lace thingies makes me cringe) and inappropriate given today's world. I personally don't feel that a veil enhances my spiritual life. I am a bride of Christ in the consecrated state, and I do want to imitate Our Lady, and yet I do think that she would not wear a veil in this age. She wore what the normal woman wore in her time and I think she would not wear what women do not wear now. She too was separated from the men at Temple, and yet we do not do that anymore. I also happen to feel that the mantillas look "cheap" and often women (at least in the traditional parishes I've been in) wear dowdy clothes to match. This to me does not help the cause of displaying the attractiveness of a virtuous and holy life (what I am saying is that to be humble and holy and modest does not require dowdiness and the true challenge sometimes is being modest in nice clothing). I am not saying that women shouldn't wear mantillas to Mass if they feel it helps them feel more recollected or makes them feel they are being more respectful to the Lord. I am saying that I do not believe that mantillas are more respectful per se and that I am personally more distracted by wearing one than not (particularly when I have to anchor it down with things that make my head ache because otherwise it slides down 50 times during Mass). I do think that separating men and women is on the same plane as veiling women as both customs date from the same era (Jewish) and both had to do with the proper roles of the sexes (separated by place and clothing) in that culture. Once more, I am not trying to stir any fire, I'm simply pointing out that my view is that I feel uncomfortable in wearing the veil myself regardless of the symbolism it may have had in the past and do not feel it helps with my own spiritual life.

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1302742794' post='2228457']
Hmmmm... so after reading your post again, abrideofChrist, I'm trying to see it as maybe you're just wondering about the practice and weren't trying to debate and you would like to hear an actual explanation of why veiling is different from separating women from men in worship. Is that right? Would you like me to try to answer such a question? I could try as best as I could.... There's really a lot of beautiful symbolism behind this that, even if you decide not to veil, it's always good to deepen our knowledge of spiritual things.

So I'm sorry if I've accused you trying to start a debate if you were seriously just wanting to have a better explanation of the practice.
[/quote]

Edited April 14, 2011 by abrideofChrist

[Chamomile]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1302745522' post='2228474']
The [b][color="#98fb98"]poll [/color][/b]was on whether we wore veils or not. I don't except in obligatory situations where protocol demands it; black full length dress with long sleeves, black shoes, and black mantilla. I voted nay. The [b][color="#98fb98"]question [/color][/b]was how we feel about it.

etc.
[/quote]

Thank you, abrideofChrist. I totally respect your opinion and am glad you've elaborated. It's hard for me to understand your position in the first post unless it has the more personal opinion you've just written.

What you feel is completely valid, although I (obviously from previous posts) have a different understanding. But that's allowed.

I pray that you continue to persevere in your vocation.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Chamomile

[abrideofChrist]

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1302748021' post='2228498']
Thank you, abrideofChrist. I totally respect your opinion and am glad you've elaborated. It's hard for me to understand your position in the first post unless it has the more personal opinion you've just written.

What you feel is completely valid, although I (obviously from previous posts) have a different understanding. But that's allowed.

I pray that you continue to persevere in your vocation.
[/quote]

Thanks for your politeness, Chamomile. I was in a hurry when I wrote the first post and didn't put enough detail. I view veil wearing as I do the adornment customs of veiled nuns on their profession days or jubilees. Some wear nothing over their veils (they're not more special than any other sister or prefer to be hidden). Some wear a plastic crown of flowers (for reasons of poverty- you can reuse them). Some wear crowns of thorns (some plastic and others thorny bush material). Others wear crowns of roses or other real flowers (for bridal significance). Since all of these are good choices, it's a matter of individual or community preference as to what is appropriate for the day of celebration. Any nun could wear something for the wrong reason (i.e. the crown of thorns is better because it's more austere and people will think I'm more holy and less vain if I wear it instead of flowers) but any one could wear (or not) something for a suitable reason (thorns to remind one or others of the poor suffering Jesus)... There are a variety of reasons to wear veils- and a variety of reasons not to wear veils. The question is... which reason(s) compel you most?

Thanks also for your prayers.

[havok579257]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1302745522' post='2228474']
The [b][color="#98fb98"]poll [/color][/b]was on whether we wore veils or not. I don't except in obligatory situations where protocol demands it; black full length dress with long sleeves, black shoes, and black mantilla. I voted nay. The [b][color="#98fb98"]question [/color][/b]was how we feel about it. I feel that it is as archaic as separating men and women or Eucharistic fasting from midnight. In no way am I trying to start a debate, I simply saying that my *feelings* are that I also feel with the original poster's family that they look silly (I'm a lacemaker, and those plasticky or machine made triangular lace thingies makes me cringe) and inappropriate given today's world. I personally don't feel that a veil enhances my spiritual life. I am a bride of Christ in the consecrated state, and I do want to imitate Our Lady, and yet I do think that she would not wear a veil in this age. She wore what the normal woman wore in her time and I think she would not wear what women do not wear now. She too was separated from the men at Temple, and yet we do not do that anymore. I also happen to feel that the mantillas look "cheap" and often women (at least in the traditional parishes I've been in) wear dowdy clothes to match. This to me does not help the cause of displaying the attractiveness of a virtuous and holy life (what I am saying is that to be humble and holy and modest does not require dowdiness and the true challenge sometimes is being modest in nice clothing). I am not saying that women shouldn't wear mantillas to Mass if they feel it helps them feel more recollected or makes them feel they are being more respectful to the Lord. I am saying that I do not believe that mantillas are more respectful per se and that I am personally more distracted by wearing one than not (particularly when I have to anchor it down with things that make my head ache because otherwise it slides down 50 times during Mass). I do think that separating men and women is on the same plane as veiling women as both customs date from the same era (Jewish) and both had to do with the proper roles of the sexes (separated by place and clothing) in that culture. Once more, I am not trying to stir any fire, I'm simply pointing out that my view is that I feel uncomfortable in wearing the veil myself regardless of the symbolism it may have had in the past and do not feel it helps with my own spiritual life.
[/quote]


the only comment i have is when you said mary would not be wearing a veil if she were alive today. i totally disagree with this statement. having your own opinion of something is fine. saying the blessed virgin mary would be less reverent if she were alive today is not something that should be said.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1302745522' post='2228474'] In no way am I trying to start a debate, I simply saying that my *feelings* are that I also feel with the original poster's family that they look silly (I'm a lacemaker, and those plasticky or machine made triangular lace thingies makes me cringe) and inappropriate given today's world.
[/quote]
Not ALL veils are like that, though. I crocheted mine, because I did not have the money to spend on buying one.

ETA: That's really cool that you can make lace. I wish I knew someone who could teach me how.

Edited April 17, 2011 by MissScripture

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1303061391' post='2229518']
Not ALL veils are like that, though. I crocheted mine, because I did not have the money to spend on buying one.

ETA: That's really cool that you can make lace. I wish I knew someone who could teach me how.
[/quote]
Wanna send me your crochet pattern? I knit more than crochet, but I can crochet.

And of course it doesn't have to be a mantilla. I sometimes wear a pashmina instead, or just a square scarf that I fold.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1303065068' post='2229527']
Wanna send me your crochet pattern? I knit more than crochet, but I can crochet.

And of course it doesn't have to be a mantilla. I sometimes wear a pashmina instead, or just a square scarf that I fold.
[/quote]
I really didn't have a pattern, I just chained a whole bunch and then started crocheting double crochets in groups of 3, and sort of made it up as I went along. I had tried to find patterns for shawls that I figured I could just scale down, but nothing really looked right. I think I used size 10 crochet thread in black.

[Cherie]

Personally I don't mind the so-called "plastic-y" ones because sometimes that's all someone can afford, and in my lack of knowledge I think they look pretty. Being a lacemaker, I'm sure, abrideofChrist, has given you a more refined "taste" so-to-speak, when it comes to something like that. Not a bad thing, by the way!

But I would LOVE to see a picture of your crocheted one, MissScripture!!! I can crochet; it's been a while, and I'm still very much a beginner, but I think I could manage to make up a veil if I tried really hard. I'd love to see what it looks like, though!

[Archaeology cat]

Not sure I'm good enough at crocheting to make it up as I go, but we'll see. I suppose I could knit one, though.

Today a lady came up to me after Mass and commented on my mantilla, saying she's worn hers for years and years, but can't find them here now. She wondered if I went to Spain to get mine (misereremi gave it to me, actually).

[abrideofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1303013009' post='2229411']
the only comment i have is when you said mary would not be wearing a veil if she were alive today. i totally disagree with this statement. having your own opinion of something is fine. saying the blessed virgin mary would be less reverent if she were alive today is not something that should be said.
[/quote]

My premise is that it is not more reverent [i]per se [/i]for a woman to wear a veil. Thus, since I do not believe it is more reverent, and because it is an outdated custom, I do thing the chances are high Our Lady would not wear a veil if she was born today. In her apparitions, OL tends to appear in the attire of the culture. For example, in LaVang, she wore a visor hat thingy rather than a veil because that is what they wore at that time and place. Let's just agree to disagree as I do not want to get into a debate. Happy Easter!

[FutureSister2009]

I've got Holy Thursday Mass from Rome with the Holy Father on EWTN right now and I think it's necessary to mention that a majority of women in the congregation are wearing Chapel Veils or hats. I think that extremely important, especially in the presence of the Pope. I certainly plan on taking mine with me next week.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1303180275' post='2230021']
Personally I don't mind the so-called "plastic-y" ones because sometimes that's all someone can afford, and in my lack of knowledge I think they look pretty. Being a lacemaker, I'm sure, abrideofChrist, has given you a more refined "taste" so-to-speak, when it comes to something like that. Not a bad thing, by the way!

But I would LOVE to see a picture of your crocheted one, MissScripture!!! I can crochet; it's been a while, and I'm still very much a beginner, but I think I could manage to make up a veil if I tried really hard. I'd love to see what it looks like, though!
[/quote]
Here is a picture:
[IMG]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/EagleOneTheatreChick/downsized_0421112102.jpg[/IMG]
It's actually on the smallish side. If I were to make another one, I would make it bigger. But I like it because it's a little bit heavier than the lace ones typically are and less slippery, so it stays put without pins or anything.

To elaborate on what I said before, it's 3 double crochets, then chain 3, then 3 double crochets, again, and reducing at the end of the row (though I don't remember how many, if it was just one stitch or 2 or 3 or what...).

[He is Risen!]

At my parish you would really stick out/ draw attention to yourself with a mantilla/scarf so I tend to opt for a hat, something kind of dressy but not too exotic. I think it's a good middle of the road option.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

+JMJ

There is an older lady at my parish that somewhat regularly wears a hat at Mass. I happen to love one of her hats. We have one similar to it that I want to wear sometime...

[Mr.Cat]

I get the feeling there is no right answer for me...