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Catholic Church Denies Funeral For Local Gay Man...maybe


katholikkid

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CatherineM

I'm not sure where you have heard this "turn away" stuff. No one is turned away from a Catholic Church. Many people attend every week who can not receive communion. My mom did, she wasn't Catholic. My dad did, he was divorced and hadn't received an annulment. I didn't received for six months waiting for our civil marriage to be blessed in the Church. Our parish is an inner city one. We routinely have prostitutes, homeless, drug users, etc. attend. People who are active in a homosexual lifestyle are as welcome at mass as my parents were. They were the proverbial "living in sin" couple. They were accepted and completely welcome in the community. They were as active in the parish as anyone could be who didn't receive communion.

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[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309924455' post='2263497']
I'm not sure where you have heard this "turn away" stuff.
[/quote]

Sorry, I meant turning them away from this hypothetical bed and breakfast.

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My dad's cousin committed suicide shortly before Christmas last year.

His funeral mass was in a Catholic church, on Christmas eve.

His graveside service was done by a Catholic deacon (my dad).

If anyone had told the grieving mother (who had buried her husband the last Christmas) that her son could not have a Catholic funeral mass or Catholic burial, I am sure it would have broken her heart. And yes, saying something like this to a grieving family can drive them away from the Church, as it pours salt on a fresh wound.

The presumption was that we didn't know what was in his mind in the last moments of his life, and perhaps the chronic depression made him less culpable. So, despite his very clear decision to end his own life, we weren't going to write him off. He had some issues, both financial and substance abuse, on top of the emotional instability.


I relate this story merely as an illustration that not all public sinners are assumed to be damned to hell, and that making that assumption is not a very pastoral move for the family left behind. If the person had last rites, would the fact that he was a notorious sinner (of any stripe/flavor) really even matter? I would leave these decisions up to the pastor, who knows the families of his parishioners and whether or not having the funeral would cause scandal or violate church law.

But in general, I would heavily favor providing a funeral if possible.

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Nihil Obstat

Suicide specifically is treated a bit differently in the Church now than it had been in the past. I speculate that the reason for this is that we tend to assume that suicides are not quite in their right minds, in most cases.

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[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1310080696' post='2264167']
I relate this story merely as an illustration that not all public sinners are assumed to be damned to hell
[/quote]
Why is it that the church refuses people a funeral? Is it because they have given up on the person and have judged that this person is going to hell?
Isn't that for god to decide? Shouldn't the church give that person the best opportunity possible, if the final sacrament of church funeral helps that person achieve a place in heaven then why wouldn't the church provide the service?

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Vincent Vega

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310104368' post='2264328']
Why is it that the church refuses people a funeral? Is it because they have given up on the person and have judged that this person is going to hell?
[/quote]
No, it's to prevent scandalizing the faithful by implicitly condoning the actions committed by the person during his life.

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woudlnt it be easier to just say that giving a person a catholic funeral does not mean the catholic church supports them and all of their sins? the catholic church has never given a funeral to a person with no sin.

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[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310105369' post='2264335']
woudlnt it be easier to just say that giving a person a catholic funeral does not mean the catholic church supports them and all of their sins? the catholic church has never given a funeral to a person with no sin.
[/quote]
Isn't it the church's place to offer support, advice and guidance rather than judgment? Isn't judgment god's domain?

Edited by stevil
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Nihil Obstat

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310107177' post='2264346']
Isn't it the church's place to offer support, advice and guidance rather than judgment? Isn't judgment god's domain?
[/quote]
We can judge actions as being objectively right or wrong. We cannot judge the state of a man's soul, nor the guilt he assumes through his actions.

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[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1310107864' post='2264352']
We can judge actions as being objectively right or wrong. We cannot judge the state of a man's soul, nor the guilt he assumes through his actions.
[/quote]
How does that reconcile with refusing to provide a gay man a burial service?

Edited by stevil
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Nihil Obstat

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310109618' post='2264354']
How does that reconcile with refusing to provide a gay man a burial service?
[/quote]
Recognition that his particular sins were grave and very public. A Catholic funeral would be scandalous to the faithful- a mistaken indication that what he did wasn't sinful at all. It was. He may not have been personally culpable for everything he did, or he might, and we can't judge that, but we do know that the things he did were wrong. That we can judge.

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[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1310110363' post='2264355']
Recognition that his particular sins were grave and very public. A Catholic funeral would be scandalous to the faithful- a mistaken indication that what he did wasn't sinful at all. It was. He may not have been personally culpable for everything he did, or he might, and we can't judge that, but we do know that the things he did were wrong. That we can judge.
[/quote]

so would you argue in favour of a single unmarried mother not getting a catholic burial?

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[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310104368' post='2264328']<br>Why is it that the church refuses people a funeral? Is it because they have given up on the person and have judged that this person is going to hell?<br>Isn't that for god to decide? Shouldn't the church give that person the best opportunity possible, if the final sacrament of church funeral helps that person achieve a place in heaven then why wouldn't the church provide the service?<br>[/quote]

You are an atheist, right? So for you everything the Catholic Church does is wacko. I can't help but wonder why this particular issue moves you so much.

Edited by Papist
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[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1310113441' post='2264366']
You are an atheist, right? So for you everything the Catholic Church does is wacko. I can't help but wonder why this particular issue moves you so much.
[/quote]
I am trying to understand the Catholic people, what they think and why.

I have, what I would think of as, a humanistic standpoint. I feel that I should be tolerant of different people, that I should accept others and not judge them. I understand that a society needs a set of rules that is accepting of different people but also provides an environment where people can co-exist and live together. We can't accept everyone and shouldn't, especially when some people harm others, e.g. murder, rape, theft, blackmail etc. In this way society needs to protect its members. The rules governing a society are not necessarily moral rules, but merely rules of necessity.

Religions enter the picture and add a moral behaviour which are rules that some people choose to live their lives by. Some of these rules match some of the rules of society and hence have legal implications when broken e.g. Murder, some of these rules are not supported by societies laws e.g. adultary.
As an Atheist I am of course all for seperation of Church and State. There are many religious based rules that I don't agree with. I feel people need to be able to chose their own destiny, they need to make decisions whether right or wrong. It is only the individual that really knows what is right for themselves. For example I am not against divorce and adultary, although I regconise that it is sad when a marriage ends, especially if young children are involved.

However in saying all this, I am struggling with a few of the stances that many religions hold to and teach. The gay issue is one of the most controversial and one of the most apauling in my opinion.
I am of two minds when I am debating on this forum.
On the one hand I really wish I could explain how bad it is to discriminate against a group of people. To openly tell them, and to teach to millions of people everywhere that this group of people are performing sinful, unnatural acts. The consequences are that the gay community is being treated very badly by some people belonging to some religions. Even some people on this forum have stated that they would not offer accomodation to gay people, a lot of people here are supporting a stance that the church denies a man a holy sacrament (which presumably means a lot to him, maybe his family and freinds also). within society gay people are being denied the ability to marry and to adopt children. Church based marriage is one thing but secular marriage is different, I don't see why gay people are to be excluded from secular based marriage. Secular marriage is about a commitment of love, infront of friends and family and being recognised by the state. A recognision that a family is constructed and in place due to love.

On the other hand I really want to understand what the stance is that Catholics have with people being gay and having gay sex. Is the Church telling people to treat gay people badly or are the Church followers misinterpreting the Church's stance and taking it upon themselves to vent their hatred upon this group of people? Is Christianity really this intolerant and hateful towards people that are different and do not follow the Church's view of morality? Why in particular are gay people singled out? Is it because they are an easy target? Is it because hetrosexual Christians personally find gay sex to be repulsive hence they want to justify being able to vocalise and express their disgust?

This stance has many victims (people that belong to my society, my community), I would think it would be hard enough anyways for a gay person to come out and be different, to tell their parents and potentially disappoint them that they will not have any grandchildren.

I do stuggle to understand how religious people can justify being hateful, and discriminating against other people. Isn't Christianity supposed to be about compassion and love? Is god supposed to be the sole judge, aren't we supposed to simply workout how best to get along with each other and love each other? if there really is a god and if gay sex is really sinful then won't god's judgment be the most fitting and appropriate judgment that can be bestowed?

Ideally, when I meet people in real life who are religious and anti gay, I would like to say to them that their religion is not about hate, but love, not about discrimination but compassion. That although they are taught that gay sex is a sin, that they are to live their own lives on the path to rightousness and to not judge others, but to show love and compassion for all people. In this way I could see a humanist and a religious person being in agreement rather than at odds with each other. I certainly do feel a strong obligation as a humanist to make society a better place where people are tolerant rather than judgemental, accepting rather than combative.

So I am trying to understand whether my ideal outcome is true or not. At the moment I am very confussed on what the official Catholic stance is and whether the general Catholic practitioners are aligned with the official Catholic stance or are at odds.


BTW- Sorry for the long post.

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havok579257

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310119153' post='2264370']
I am trying to understand the Catholic people, what they think and why.

I have, what I would think of as, a humanistic standpoint. I feel that I should be tolerant of different people, that I should accept others and not judge them. I understand that a society needs a set of rules that is accepting of different people but also provides an environment where people can co-exist and live together. We can't accept everyone and shouldn't, especially when some people harm others, e.g. murder, rape, theft, blackmail etc. In this way society needs to protect its members. The rules governing a society are not necessarily moral rules, but merely rules of necessity.

Religions enter the picture and add a moral behaviour which are rules that some people choose to live their lives by. Some of these rules match some of the rules of society and hence have legal implications when broken e.g. Murder, some of these rules are not supported by societies laws e.g. adultary.
As an Atheist I am of course all for seperation of Church and State. There are many religious based rules that I don't agree with. I feel people need to be able to chose their own destiny, they need to make decisions whether right or wrong. It is only the individual that really knows what is right for themselves. For example I am not against divorce and adultary, although I regconise that it is sad when a marriage ends, especially if young children are involved.

To openly tell them, and to teach to millions of people everywhere that this group of people are performing sinful, unnatural acts. The consequences are that the gay community is being treated very badly by some people belonging to some religions. Even some people on this forum have stated that they would not offer accomodation to gay people, a lot of people here are supporting a stance that the church denies a man a holy sacrament (which presumably means a lot to him, maybe his family and freinds also). within society gay people are being denied the ability to marry and to adopt children. Church based marriage is one thing but secular marriage is different, I don't see why gay people are to be excluded from secular based marriage. Secular marriage is about a commitment of love, infront of friends and family and being recognised by the state. A recognision that a family is constructed and in place due to love.

On the other hand I really want to understand what the stance is that Catholics have with people being gay and having gay sex. Is the Church telling people to treat gay people badly or are the Church followers misinterpreting the Church's stance and taking it upon themselves to vent their hatred upon this group of people? Is Christianity really this intolerant and hateful towards people that are different and do not follow the Church's view of morality? Why in particular are gay people singled out? Is it because they are an easy target? Is it because hetrosexual Christians personally find gay sex to be repulsive hence they want to justify being able to vocalise and express their disgust?

This stance has many victims (people that belong to my society, my community), I would think it would be hard enough anyways for a gay person to come out and be different, to tell their parents and potentially disappoint them that they will not have any grandchildren.

I do stuggle to understand how religious people can justify being hateful, and discriminating against other people. Isn't Christianity supposed to be about compassion and love? Is god supposed to be the sole judge, aren't we supposed to simply workout how best to get along with each other and love each other? if there really is a god and if gay sex is really sinful then won't god's judgment be the most fitting and appropriate judgment that can be bestowed?

Ideally, when I meet people in real life who are religious and anti gay, I would like to say to them that their religion is not about hate, but love, not about discrimination but compassion. That although they are taught that gay sex is a sin, that they are to live their own lives on the path to rightousness and to not judge others, but to show love and compassion for all people. In this way I could see a humanist and a religious person being in agreement rather than at odds with each other. I certainly do feel a strong obligation as a humanist to make society a better place where people are tolerant rather than judgemental, accepting rather than combative.

So I am trying to understand whether my ideal outcome is true or not. At the moment I am very confussed on what the official Catholic stance is and whether the general Catholic practitioners are aligned with the official Catholic stance or are at odds.


BTW- Sorry for the long post.
[/quote]


the church tells not only homosexuals but all people that things they are doing is wrong and evil. i don;t know why your just singeling out the stance of the church on homosexual sex. i would say the church has talked as much if not more about how premarital sex between a man and a women, contraceptive sex between a man and a women and abortion is evil and wrong. i would say the church has told heterosexual's more about how their actions are sinful and evil than about homosexuals and their actions. yet it seems you pick and choose what things to look at when going after the church. is it wrong that the church teaches millions that premarital sex, masturbation, abortion and contraception are sinful and wrong? if not, then why is it only wrong when the church talks about homosexual sins? should homosexuals get extra special rules for them? should the church NEVER speak out about ANY sin because they are offending one group or another? i mean it seems that's what your point comes down to. you feel the church is unjust because it offends one group of people by saying their actions are sinful, so they should not do it. although by speaking out against abortion, contraception, premarital sex, incest, polygymey(sp?), masturbation and so on they are offending one group of people who think their is nothing wrong with their actions. it seems like(this may not be your actual stance) your only ok with religion if they are about thanking God and praying to God and not having any rules or guidelines to follow. that by having even one rule, your offending others and that is wrong.

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