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Don't Start Threads Focusing On Marriage In Here.

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JoyfulLife
[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1325110925' post='2358716']
I post often in VS because I was a religious for five years and discerned religious life much longer than that. I worked extensively with the Vocation Directress of my former community. I have learned a lot while I was there and am glad to share what little knowledge I have gained with those discerning, because I love the life, do all I can to encourage it, and have been there before.

That being said, I am now a married woman. It was a vocational decision, not something I just wandered into.

I think it's general knowledge that VS is more geared toward consecrated life. But I see many benefits in discussing the topic of marriage every now and then, and that includes starting a topic on it now and then. When I was seriously discerning religious life, at one point in my discernment, the question of my attraction to marriage came up daily. It was a choice I had to make, guided by prayer, discernment, and spiritual direction. I think it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for those discerning to understand the vocation of marriage in discerning their call from God, for countless reasons.

I understand dUSt, where you are coming from, but I think the recent surge in threads in VS on marriage is simply the result of a few members taking a turn in their vocational discernment. It is by no means a permanent trend, and as someone who has been part of discerning religious life, being in religious life, then discerning marriage and becoming married, I think it is innocuous, if not very beneficial, for the VS audience.

I personally don't think Open Mic is necessarily the best place for folks to ask serious questions on marriage. RSH might be a good place, but it still might not be the right place for someone still open to religious life, yet wondering if marriage is their possible calling (a "dilemma" the majority of discerners encounter at some point.)

These are just my humble opinions.
[/quote]

Absolutely!!

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1325091408' post='2358566']
Instead of being a part of the problem by complaining, be part of the solution by thinking and suggesting an alternative. dUSt is a pretty open guy and though I cannot garuantee action; I can garuantee he will be open and listen.

Unless you *like* to complain......
[/quote]

The "problem" has nothing to do with complaining. And you can take it as that, or as my suggestion.

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1325093299' post='2358585']
I actually think that Raising Small Humans is the better alternative to VS for marriage posts. While the phocus of that board (RSH) is mostly children/NFP, I don't see why it can't be broadened to include marriage in general. Open Mic, to me, is not as "safe" a place to post serious questions about married life. I do feel that RSH is, though).

I think anyone who wishes to discuss and encourage religious vocations ought to feel welcome to post here-- not just those who are, themselves, discerning.
[/quote]
I agree, except that many of those discerning marriage are underage, and that forum is not appropriate for anyone that young.

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JoyfulLife
[quote]Is Consecrated Life A Higher Calling than Marriage?
The Catholic Church teaches, as dogma, that a consecrated life of celibacy is a superior calling than the married state, and should be preferred, if it is within the capacity and disposition of the soul to do so.[indent] [i][b][img]http://www.religious-vocation.com/images/img_dominican1.jpg[/img][/b][/i]
Pope John Paul II , Vita Consecrata, no. 32: “As a way of showing forth the Church's holiness, it is to be recognized that the consecrated life, which mirrors Christ's own way of life, [i]has an objective superiority[/i]. Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of Gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church's purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery,[62] will be achieved and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God (cf. Mt. 22:30)”
Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, no. 32: “This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church."
Council of Trent, pg. 225: "If anyone saith that the marriage state is to be preferred before the state of virginity, let him be anathema." [...] "writing to the Corinthians, [Paul] says:[i] I would that all men were even as myself; [/i]that is, that all embrace the virtue of continence...A life of continence is to be desired by all.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 916: "The state of the consecrated life is thus one way of experiencing a [i]"more intimate" [/i]consecration, rooted in Baptism and dedicated totally to God. In the consecrated life, Christ's faithful, moved by the Holy Spirit, propose to follow Christ more nearly, to give themselves to God who is loved above all and, pursuing the perfection of charity in the service of the Kingdom, to signify and proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come."
I Corinthians Chp. VII: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman. [v.1] Indeed, I wish that everyone were like I am [celibate]. [v.7] I should like you to be free from anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord; how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world; how he may please his wife, and he is divided. [v.32] Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that." [v.28] (see also Mark 12:18-27, Mtt 19:10-12, 2 Timothy Ch. 2:3)[/indent]
[url="http://www.religious-vocation.com/"]http://www.religious-vocation.com/[/url]

[/quote]

I think Dust is referring to this website.......




I wish (and someone please help!) I could find the thread on VS where I discussed this and someone clarified for me that it was misunderstood on the website. This person on VS said that marriage and consecrated life are both high callings; rather, the calling YOU are called to is the higher of your choices, but marriage isn't to be downplayed. Mother Mary was married, albeit Josephite, but it was marriage. Where would Priests and Nuns come from if not for marriage? My own Spiritual director said that your own calling is the higher/highest calling for you and did not want to downplay marriage at all. I just feel that "vocation station" is about vocations and shouldn't leave out marriage because of thoughts that it is "less." I guess I have misunderstandings about the forum name; it isn't called "consecrated station" so it's confusing. Thoughts?





FOUND IT!!!!


[QUOTE] SISTER MARIE SAID:

I've been watching this thread because I agree that there is something special about religious life (as there is about all the states in life) but I am extremely uncomfortable with the words "perfect" and "superior" to describe religious life. I am newly out of initial formation and so have studied a lot about religious life rather recently and when I saw the first quote from Vita Consecrata I thought... hmm, how did I miss that? After reading those documents over and over and over again... how could I have not gotten that it was a dogma religious life is the objectively superior calling. So I just went to the Vatican website to look at the context of that quote and it gives a much different view and tone when taken in the entire paragraph.

Here is the entire paragraph from Vita Consecrata:

"Within this [u][b][u]harmonious constellation of gifts[/u][/b][/u], [b]each of the fundamental [u][u]states of life[/u][/u] is entrusted with the task of expressing, in its own way, one or other aspect of the one mystery of Christ.[/b] While [i]the lay life[/i] has [i]a particular mission [/i]of ensuring that the Gospel message is proclaimed in the temporal sphere, in the sphere of ecclesial communion [i]an indispensable ministry is carried out by those in Holy Orders,[/i] and in a special way by Bishops. The latter have the task of guiding the People of God by the teaching of the word, the administration of the sacraments and the exercise of sacred power in the service of ecclesial communion, which is an organic communion, hierarchically structured.[u][u]As a way of showing forth the Church's holiness, [i]it is to be recognized that the consecrated life,[/i] which mirrors Christ's own way of life, [i]has an objective superiority[/i]. [/u][/u]Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of Gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church's purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. [b]The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery,will be achieved, and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God[/b] (cf. [i]Mt [/i]22:30).The Church has always taught the pre-eminence of perfect chastity for the sake of the Kingdom,and rightly considers it the "door" of the whole consecrated life.[b]She also shows [u][u]great esteem[/u][/u] for the [u][u]vocation to marriage[/u][/u], which makes spouses "witnesses to and cooperators in the fruitfulness of Holy Mother Church, who signify and share in the love with which Christ has loved his Bride and because of which he delivered himself up on her behalf".In this perspective, common to all consecrated life, there are many different but complementary paths.[/b] Men and women Religious [i]completely devoted to contemplation [/i]are in a special way an image of Christ praying on the mountain.Consecrated persons engaged in [i]the active life[/i] manifest Christ "in his proclamation of the Kingdom of God to the multitudes, in his healing of the sick and the suffering, in his work of converting sinners to a better life, in his solicitude for youth and his goodness to all".Consecrated persons in [i]Secular Institutes[/i] contribute in a special way to the coming of the Kingdom of God; they unite in a distinctive synthesis the value of consecration and that of being in the world. As they live their consecration in the world and from the world,"they strive to imbue everything with an evangelical spirit for the strengthening and growth of the Body of Christ".For this purpose they share in the Church's evangelizing mission through their personal witness of Christian living, their commitment to ordering temporal affairs according to God's plan, and their cooperation in service of the ecclesial community, in accordance with the secular way of life which is proper to them."

I think the tone is quite different in the full context. I would reframe this conversation to say that the single life, married life, consecrated life, and priesthood all show an image of who God is and what He is doing in our world - they image the eternal Kingdom. A man and a woman image in matrimony the final wedding between the Bride - the Church and the Bridegroom - Christ. According to John Paul's Theology of the Body, their love images directly the giving, receiving, and life giving nature of the Trinity... THAT IS HUGE! Meanwhile, priests offer us the great opportunity to experience Christ in the sacraments. The sacrifice of their lives in imitation of Christ is an image of the eternal love of Christ for His Church. In my mind and heart, what is implied by this "objectively superior" language is just that we as religious have already wed Christ in that eternal marriage feast. When I say "just" I don't mean to say that it is not profound but it certainly doesn't make US superior - all it means is that the image we offer is more closely linked to the heavenly marriage that awaits. It certainly also does not make us more perfect.

I am so blessed right now to work in a school with some of the most dedicated teachers I have ever met and you know what - they are a million times holier than I can even hope to be. I am in awe of them and God continually uses them as an example to me of how to live a committed Christian life of love and service. I am continually humbled by them.

I'm sorry if I sound like a lunatic, haha. This is a really "heavy" topic and I don't believe that Christ would ever want us to cringe at our own calling when compared with another but I found myself cringing a little bit as I read. I reread this post a few times and I'm still not quite happy with it either... haha. You are all so precious to God and He desires your love. That is all. Everything else is a detail - important but still only details. Know I'm praying for you.

Sister Marie

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/115168-higher-vocation/page__view__findpost__p__2296062"]source[/url]
[/quote] Edited by JoyfulLife

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1325094333' post='2358597']
OK, once again, my lack of communication skills has gotten me in trouble.
[b] "Don't start threads focusing on marriage in here."[/b]
[/quote]

The clarification is good, but I still disagree with the rule. But I'm not the person who works to keep these boards running. I've said what I believe and out of respect (because you actually do deserve it) I will leave it at that.

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faithcecelia
[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325112721' post='2358724']
I agree, except that many of those discerning marriage are underage, and that forum is not appropriate for anyone that young.
[/quote]

My view on this (as I stated further up this thread) is that if they truely are too young to discuss sex and procreation, then they are also too young to be talking about sacrificing those things by making a vow of chastity. Good, solid formation includes dealing with the fact that we are sexual beings with natural desires and instincts. If we think it inappropriate for 14yr olds to read about sex, then they are too young to read about celibacy.

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325113042' post='2358727']
My view on this (as I stated further up this thread) is that if they truely are too young to discuss sex and procreation, then they are also too young to be talking about sacrificing those things by making a vow of chastity. Good, solid formation includes dealing with the fact that we are sexual beings with natural desires and instincts. If we think it inappropriate for 14yr olds to read about sex, then they are too young to read about celibacy.
[/quote]

I totally disagree. First of all, VS focuses on vocations to religious life, not the vow of chastity specifically, so there isn't tons of focus on it, and therefore there isn't tons of focus on what it entails. RSH, on the other hand, is technically a forum to discuss NFP AND marriage and family. Much more focus on sex-related topics. You can vaguely discuss the vow of chastity on VS without getting into the kinds of detail you get into on RSH (for heaven's sake, we learn the two commandments against violating impurity when we're toddlers- that doesn't mean we need to know what sex entails). And another thing, talking about the vow of chastity is talking about something very general that applies to many, many people. A lot of the issues discussed in RSH are specific to particular individuals who would not feel free to openly discuss such things if they knew that young kids were reading.

I for one would stop posting there if it were opened up to people under 18.

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JoyfulLife
[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1325098255' post='2358628']
.....but I think this is worthy of some discussion and definitely for some prayerful thought about what the Holy Spirit is saying here.

…. But I would be curious to know what the board users would find helpful, too. What would help you in your discernment?

Perhaps ... could the the Holy Spirit be prompting a new category?

[/quote]

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faithcecelia
[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325113406' post='2358729']
I totally disagree. First of all, VS focuses on vocations to religious life, not the vow of chastity specifically, so there isn't tons of focus on it, and therefore there isn't tons of focus on what it entails. RSH, on the other hand, is technically a forum to discuss NFP AND marriage and family. Much more focus on sex-related topics. You can vaguely discuss the vow of chastity on VS without getting into the kinds of detail you get into on RSH (for heaven's sake, we learn the two commandments against violating impurity when we're toddlers- that doesn't mean we need to know what sex entails). And another thing, talking about the vow of chastity is talking about something very general that applies to many, many people. A lot of the issues discussed in RSH are specific to particular individuals who would not feel free to openly discuss such things if they knew that young kids were reading.

[b]I for one would stop posting there if it were opened up to people under 18.[/b]
[/quote]

But most countries allow marriage (with parental consent) from 16. Indeed, its 14 for the Vatican! These young brides are as likely to need guidance in NFP, pregnancy, breastfeeding etc as older women - possibly more for the very young as their menstrual cycles may not have become regular.

Edit - many Southern US Stares also allow vey young marriages too - 13 for the girl in New Hampshire! They could have 4 kids before they were old enough to read RSH!


I'm not actually saying make RSH an unprotected forum, more let VS be protected. Edited by faithcecelia

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325114057' post='2358743']
But most countries allow marriage (with parental consent) from 16. Indeed, its 14 for the Vatican! These young brides are as likely to need guidance in NFP, pregnancy, breastfeeding etc as older women - possibly more for the very young as their menstrual sycles may not have become regular.



I'm not actually saying make RSH an unprotected forum, more let VS be protected.
[/quote]

I personally have not seen one person on PM get married at the age of 14 or 16. If you know one, point them out to me. But my comments were *clearly* directed at PM posters, not people in countries where little girls are mature enough to get married in their young teens.

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faithcecelia
[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325114233' post='2358748']
I personally have not seen one person on PM get married at the age of 14 or 16. If you know one, point them out to me. But my comments were *clearly* directed at PM posters, not people in countries where little girls are mature enough to get married in their young teens.
[/quote]

No, but there are discerners of those ages, and that is what concerns me. I do not think it appriopriate that we have one rule for those seeking one vocation and another for those seeking another. I havent yet had the right opportunity, but if it comes up I would certainly be interested to know if a girl of 12/13 who is *certain* they are called to religious life would feel ready to get married if they felt their calling was marriage. I suspect none would.

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JoyfulLife
If another board were made for marriage, I question how many people would visit? It just seems that when we allow marriage threads here, everyone discerning various vocations, coming from different walks of life, notice the threads on VS and chime in, and it really helps the marriage threads. I think vocation station should be broadened to include marriage. Otherwise, please give a place where I can continue posting on the marriage threads on VS that I've been posting on...and please make a way to let others know the threads are open so people around here will give their wonderful comments. :) Edited by JoyfulLife

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FutureCarmeliteClaire
Holy cow, that is crazy to ban VS to people under 14 because there is no conceivable way for anyone to know how much someone's parents have talked to them yet about sexuality, and if parents are letting their kids be on Phatmass and/or roam the internet on their own, then the teen should use discretion which 12 and 13 year olds (the ages of the two youngest members that I know of) are perfectly capable of. Marriage is totally different from the religious life in the aspect of sex, and I certainly am not fond of the hostility presented on certain occasions to young ones discerning their vocations. It seriously stinks when no one believes you, and I think I speak on behalf of the younger members of Phatmass when I say that we should not be banned from discerning or talking to others about it. I know for a fact that we young ones have questions for those who were in the religious life previously that we may be uncomfortable asking a nun outright.

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1325114720' post='2358755']
If another board were made for marriage, I question how many people would visit? It just seems that when we allow marriage threads here, everyone discerning various vocations, coming from different walks of life, notice the threads on VS and chime in, and it really helps the marriage threads. I think vocation station should be broadened to include marriage. Otherwise, please give a place where I can continue posting on the marriage threads on VS that I've been posting on...and please make a way to let others know the threads are open so people around here will give their wonderful comments. :)
[/quote]
I love your attitude with this, Joyful.

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faithcecelia
[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1325115047' post='2358762']
Holy cow, that is crazy to ban VS to people under 14 because there is no conceivable way for anyone to know how much someone's parents have talked to them yet about sexuality, and if parents are letting their kids be on Phatmass and/or roam the internet on their own, then the teen should use discretion which 12 and 13 year olds (the ages of the two youngest members that I know of) are perfectly capable of. Marriage is totally different from the religious life in the aspect of sex, and I certainly am not fond of the hostility presented on certain occasions to young ones discerning their vocations. It seriously stinks when no one believes you, and I think I speak on behalf of the younger members of Phatmass when I say that we should not be banned from discerning or talking to others about it. I know for a fact that we young ones have questions for those who were in the religious life previously that we may be uncomfortable asking a nun outright.


I love your attitude with this, Joyful.
[/quote]

Its not a specific ban I am after, its a more level playing field.

I for one have no issue whatever with there being some marriage threads here in VS - I think its a good idea - as the people who post here are the serious discerners seeking Gods will in their life, whatever it may be.

You won't see it now as you are in the age group affected, but young teens usually do need reeling in a bit. Teens get over enthusiastic and quite 'black and white' about things. This is not a criticism, just an observation over the 11yrs I have worked with 11-14/5yr olds. I am sure in time you will see that, as I do having been one of the teens myself 3million years ago!

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EmilyAnn
[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1325115047' post='2358762']
Holy cow, that is crazy to ban VS to people under 14 because there is no conceivable way for anyone to know how much someone's parents have talked to them yet about sexuality, and if parents are letting their kids be on Phatmass and/or roam the internet on their own, then the teen should use discretion which 12 and 13 year olds (the ages of the two youngest members that I know of) are perfectly capable of. Marriage is totally different from the religious life in the aspect of sex, and I certainly am not fond of the hostility presented on certain occasions to young ones discerning their vocations. It seriously stinks when no one believes you, and I think I speak on behalf of the younger members of Phatmass when I say that we should not be banned from discerning or talking to others about it. I know for a fact that we young ones have questions for those who were in the religious life previously that we may be uncomfortable asking a nun outright.
[/quote]

I agree that banning younger members is not the way to go. We need to encourage young people to discern God's will for them and allow them access to the wonderful resources this forum has to offer because lets face it the opposition in the world to discernment of religious life is growing. Younger members may also be more limited than older ones, perhaps less able to establish contact with communities, visit, simply meet nuns, etc. so this forum provides that as well. Though I will say try not to be too harsh on those who seem discouraging. There truly are some wisdoms that come with age - I feel hideously old and cliche when I say that but it really is true. Try to remember they are only trying to help.

At 12 or 13 kids know about sex. They may be foggy in the particulars but they know about it, I sure did. Especially in our world, with the ever more 'liberal' views on sex we need more than ever to educate kids about sexual theology as soon as they are exposed to that knowledge, before they get sucked in by the culture. I often think my life would have been a lot different if I had ever been properly taught about sex (I wasn't, not at school and not by my parents). Chastity is part of that education, whether one is discerning marriage or religious life.

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i<3LSOP
I really hope that they don't put an age limit on VS. I know I don't post on here much.... but I love reading all of the stories and posting my sense once in a while.

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LinaSt.Cecilia2772
Okay I'm probably gunna be shot down for this, but I'm gunna say it anyway. This is just an idea but I was wondering if in any way there could be a board specifically on topics about Catholic dating/courtship and marriage? In all honesty, I don't think Open Mic is the most appropriate place to post topics about marriage and dating/courtships because it can get lost in all the other topics about fifty bagillion other things, which can cause many distractions and not enough attention to these important topics. There are a lot of people on this phorum who are discerning different vocations and I agree that marriage and dating/courtship topics shouldn't be posted in VS, but they need a place of their own so they can be explored by discerning people in all its beautiful components and entirety. Open mic, in my opinion, isn't the place for it. Also many people want courtship and dating advice, and it needs more focus because marriage can't necessarily happen without it. I'm 17 and I'm starting to explore many different options in my vocational journey, and I know that would be beneficial not only to me but to many others on this phorum. It also is a phorm of phormation because if done in God's way it can make two people grow in holiness and in faith. It also helps for single people discerning because it really helps turn your life and yourself to Jesus and His plan. So it is a very important aspect of vocations that needs its own attention and more emphasis.

As I said before, it's just an idea or suggestion. Agree or disagree on it, but ultimately I know its up to dUst to decide.

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Guest hermanita
[b]Many religious communities open their vocation retreats and days of discernment to young women 13 and older. I do believe it is important to remember when posting, the diversity we have here at Phatmass. It is a blessing and a responsability.[/b]

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JoyfulLife
Please allow marriage threads on vs or a special place. Open mic isn't appropriate as others have said, and RSH is more about raising kids than dating, dating websites, courting, husbands, wives, etc. My own life may soon totally change; theses two orders may tell me I'm not called, and I really will need phatmass to help me in discerning consecrated virginity and especially marriage. Phatmass has gotten me through so much in my discernment and I've learned so much and made some great friends. Please help us out Dust! :) :)


I say this from the bottom of my heart and with all respect. I really need to be able to talk to people on here about marriage in the appropriate place where it will get attention, and vs has been great; it doesn't mean we can't experiment with subforums and see what works best. I just really need a place. :) Edited by JoyfulLife

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