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dUSt

Don't Start Threads Focusing On Marriage In Here.

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AnneLine
Maybe I am mistaken... but I think people under 18 can neither read nor post in Raising Small Humans..... unless they lie about their ages. Many discerners wouldn't have access unless they fudged their ages. Am I correct?

Now I REALLY have to get away from the computer.... need to get to a gov't agency this afternoon! Edited by AnneLine

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MithLuin
I understand why [b]dUSt[/b] has asked us to stay on point here. I think that discussing marriage is inevitable (in life, but yes, also in this forum), and there is not any problem with that as it naturally arises. I don't think it will hurt VS in any way to leave off starting new threads specifically about married life. If you want to know what it's like to live out a Catholic marriage, I agree that the wider audience in Open Mic is the place to go.

Now, what phatmass [i]needs[/i] is a Matchmaking phorum for all those single posters who don't desire to pursue religious life [i]or[/i] remain single ;).

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FutureCarmeliteClaire
[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325107210' post='2358687']
Yes, thats true.

My personal opinion is that of someone is old enough to be discerning their vocation, and at the point of choosing to give up the beauty of a sexual relationship with their spouse and procreation, then they are old enough to read of such. If the general feeling truely is that that is not the case, then maybe we should also have an age limit on VS? Accepting the spousal union with Christ alone in religious life requires an understanding of sex and sexuality.
[/quote]
Okay, no age limit on VS. I'm 13 and I will not leave VS! :) I do agree with what Faith says about people understanding the beauty of the marital act being allowed to read it. I probably would not go on there if it were unlocked, just out of choice for myself.
By the way, there is nothing EVER posted in VS as long as I have been here about sex, and anyone is old enough to discern their vocation. Period. Edited by FutureCarmeliteClaire

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savvy
[quote]Well-meaning people like the Pope? [/quote]

He is biased because he loves his life :)

There are similarities between religious life and marriage. They both require commitment, work, compromise.

The differences are that rl is the road less travelled and one cannot have favourite people, except for God. Edited by savvy

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MissScripture
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1325108200' post='2358696']
I understand why [b]dUSt[/b] has asked us to stay on point here. I think that discussing marriage is inevitable (in life, but yes, also in this forum), and there is not any problem with that as it naturally arises. I don't think it will hurt VS in any way to leave off starting new threads specifically about married life. If you want to know what it's like to live out a Catholic marriage, I agree that the wider audience in Open Mic is the place to go.

Now, what phatmass [i]needs[/i] is a Matchmaking phorum for all those single posters who don't desire to pursue religious life [i]or[/i] remain single ;).
[/quote]
My matchmaking phorum was the lame board. :|

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FutureCarmeliteClaire
[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1325108200' post='2358696']
I understand why [b]dUSt[/b] has asked us to stay on point here. I think that discussing marriage is inevitable (in life, but yes, also in this forum), and there is not any problem with that as it naturally arises. I don't think it will hurt VS in any way to leave off starting new threads specifically about married life. If you want to know what it's like to live out a Catholic marriage, I agree that the wider audience in Open Mic is the place to go.

Now, what phatmass [i]needs[/i] is a Matchmaking phorum for all those single posters who don't desire to pursue religious life [i]or[/i] remain single ;).
[/quote]
Totally sums up my thoughts on the whole thing.

Remember people, dUST is the Pope of Phatmass, so it really doesn't matter what we think :)

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Cherie
I post often in VS because I was a religious for five years and discerned religious life much longer than that. I worked extensively with the Vocation Directress of my former community. I have learned a lot while I was there and am glad to share what little knowledge I have gained with those discerning, because I love the life, do all I can to encourage it, and have been there before.

That being said, I am now a married woman. It was a vocational decision, not something I just wandered into.

I think it's general knowledge that VS is more geared toward consecrated life. But I see many benefits in discussing the topic of marriage every now and then, and that includes starting a topic on it now and then. When I was seriously discerning religious life, at one point in my discernment, the question of my attraction to marriage came up daily. It was a choice I had to make, guided by prayer, discernment, and spiritual direction. I think it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for those discerning to understand the vocation of marriage in discerning their call from God, for countless reasons.

I understand dUSt, where you are coming from, but I think the recent surge in threads in VS on marriage is simply the result of a few members taking a turn in their vocational discernment. It is by no means a permanent trend, and as someone who has been part of discerning religious life, being in religious life, then discerning marriage and becoming married, I think it is innocuous, if not very beneficial, for the VS audience.

I personally don't think Open Mic is necessarily the best place for folks to ask serious questions on marriage. RSH might be a good place, but it still might not be the right place for someone still open to religious life, yet wondering if marriage is their possible calling (a "dilemma" the majority of discerners encounter at some point.)

These are just my humble opinions.

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JoyfulLife
[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325090050' post='2358547']
I thought this thread was a joke. Unfortunately I'm wrong...
[/quote]
[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325090632' post='2358555']
I understood the post and I have no intention of not posting in here anymore. I was in religious life so I actually have some things to say that dUST would want me to say. However, I don't think it's right to call a forum "vocation station" and not really have it be a vocation place, but a place to talk about one specific vocation. That's misleading, and most people probably don't read the fine print. Second of all, the amount of talk in here about marriage is probably less than 10% of the total conversation, and usually it's initiated by someone who's discerning religious life and wants to know about other vocations. I was starting to think that VS was becoming a healthier place by becoming slightly more focused on the fact that there is more than one vocation for people to choose, but apparently that was never the direction this forum was meant to go in. So where's the forum for people to talk about marriage as a vocation, if they're not allowed to do it in "vocation" station? I sure as heck don't want a fourteen year old reading the NFP forum. So what's their alternative?
[/quote]
[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1325091645' post='2358568']
Can we have a marriage board, then?

Call it Love Connection. :| It'll be epic.

In all seriousness, I understand what you're aiming for, dUSt. It would be good to have something for the wannabe-marrieds, if we are holding VS up as for the discerning only.
[/quote]
[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1325093125' post='2358584']
Vocational discernment doesn't happen in a vacuum. Often someone's discernment to a religious community can be very enriched by hearing stories of people's discernment to married life. Knowledge of the one can deepen appreciation for the other. Like Totus Tuus, I also appreciated the fact that this phorum was containing a bit more info on marriage - it seemed like a beautiful testament to the nature of the universal church. An understanding of that should be fundamental to anyone's discernment. It certainly doesn't hurt the religious discerners to have a few threads on married life in here.

I know you are not trying to be a jerk, but it does feel as though you are imposing your opinion of what religious discernment ought to look like. As you are a married man yourself, that seems a bit strange - unless you've been a vocation director yourself at one time, or had a lot experience with leading a parish discernment group, and you found this way to be best through experience.
[/quote]
[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1325093882' post='2358595']
I agree with beatitude ( and others).
1) Talk of marriage on VS has never ever in any way shape or form 'upset' me, nor can I see this talk being potentially upsetting to anyone else.
2) Everything in life is relative. I personally would be unhappy if marriage were not to be able to be talked about here on VS, It too is a vocation. I have never noticed posts talking MORE about marriage than they do about Life in Religion, but alongside, which IMO is just fine.
3) Exclusivity tends to breed attitudes of discontent, separation, and alienation in every place I have seen it. Please don't introduce it here on VS or phatmass....
4) I am an ex-nun. I am not discerning anything beyond the Lord's Will in my daily life. I am single and celibate. Does this mean I am not supposed to post here in VS? I am neither a priest or nun wannabe......
[/quote]
[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1325095333' post='2358606']
ye-owch! I think that the people who have posted here on VS regarding marriage as a vocation usually have been people trying to sort out their own vocational calling when they have come up against road blocks in pursuing religious life. It seems a little harsh to suddenly exclude them from the friends they have made on VS with a "You are not called to religious life and therefore we do not want you to post here."

It can be very painful to desire religious life and not be able to live out that vocation. Especially when well-meaning people insist on emphasizing that marriage is a "lesser" vocation. I personally had to leave the convent due to some mental health issues and this was very painful. I actually don't think I have a vocation to marriage, but I can still see how someone who ran up against a "no" to religious life might feel really crummy about this if they think they may have a calling to marriage instead.

Maybe I am totally off base here, but I just think that being sensitive to those who have posted here and have formed relationships on VS and then discovered that they don't have a religious vocation might be important.
[/quote]


I totally agree with all of you! :)

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JoyfulLife
[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1325110925' post='2358716']
I post often in VS because I was a religious for five years and discerned religious life much longer than that. I worked extensively with the Vocation Directress of my former community. I have learned a lot while I was there and am glad to share what little knowledge I have gained with those discerning, because I love the life, do all I can to encourage it, and have been there before.

That being said, I am now a married woman. It was a vocational decision, not something I just wandered into.

I think it's general knowledge that VS is more geared toward consecrated life. But I see many benefits in discussing the topic of marriage every now and then, and that includes starting a topic on it now and then. When I was seriously discerning religious life, at one point in my discernment, the question of my attraction to marriage came up daily. It was a choice I had to make, guided by prayer, discernment, and spiritual direction. I think it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for those discerning to understand the vocation of marriage in discerning their call from God, for countless reasons.

I understand dUSt, where you are coming from, but I think the recent surge in threads in VS on marriage is simply the result of a few members taking a turn in their vocational discernment. It is by no means a permanent trend, and as someone who has been part of discerning religious life, being in religious life, then discerning marriage and becoming married, I think it is innocuous, if not very beneficial, for the VS audience.

I personally don't think Open Mic is necessarily the best place for folks to ask serious questions on marriage. RSH might be a good place, but it still might not be the right place for someone still open to religious life, yet wondering if marriage is their possible calling (a "dilemma" the majority of discerners encounter at some point.)

These are just my humble opinions.
[/quote]

Absolutely!!

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1325091408' post='2358566']
Instead of being a part of the problem by complaining, be part of the solution by thinking and suggesting an alternative. dUSt is a pretty open guy and though I cannot garuantee action; I can garuantee he will be open and listen.

Unless you *like* to complain......
[/quote]

The "problem" has nothing to do with complaining. And you can take it as that, or as my suggestion.

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1325093299' post='2358585']
I actually think that Raising Small Humans is the better alternative to VS for marriage posts. While the phocus of that board (RSH) is mostly children/NFP, I don't see why it can't be broadened to include marriage in general. Open Mic, to me, is not as "safe" a place to post serious questions about married life. I do feel that RSH is, though).

I think anyone who wishes to discuss and encourage religious vocations ought to feel welcome to post here-- not just those who are, themselves, discerning.
[/quote]
I agree, except that many of those discerning marriage are underage, and that forum is not appropriate for anyone that young.

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JoyfulLife
[quote]Is Consecrated Life A Higher Calling than Marriage?
The Catholic Church teaches, as dogma, that a consecrated life of celibacy is a superior calling than the married state, and should be preferred, if it is within the capacity and disposition of the soul to do so.[indent] [i][b][img]http://www.religious-vocation.com/images/img_dominican1.jpg[/img][/b][/i]
Pope John Paul II , Vita Consecrata, no. 32: “As a way of showing forth the Church's holiness, it is to be recognized that the consecrated life, which mirrors Christ's own way of life, [i]has an objective superiority[/i]. Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of Gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church's purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery,[62] will be achieved and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God (cf. Mt. 22:30)”
Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, no. 32: “This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church."
Council of Trent, pg. 225: "If anyone saith that the marriage state is to be preferred before the state of virginity, let him be anathema." [...] "writing to the Corinthians, [Paul] says:[i] I would that all men were even as myself; [/i]that is, that all embrace the virtue of continence...A life of continence is to be desired by all.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 916: "The state of the consecrated life is thus one way of experiencing a [i]"more intimate" [/i]consecration, rooted in Baptism and dedicated totally to God. In the consecrated life, Christ's faithful, moved by the Holy Spirit, propose to follow Christ more nearly, to give themselves to God who is loved above all and, pursuing the perfection of charity in the service of the Kingdom, to signify and proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come."
I Corinthians Chp. VII: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman. [v.1] Indeed, I wish that everyone were like I am [celibate]. [v.7] I should like you to be free from anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord; how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world; how he may please his wife, and he is divided. [v.32] Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that." [v.28] (see also Mark 12:18-27, Mtt 19:10-12, 2 Timothy Ch. 2:3)[/indent]
[url="http://www.religious-vocation.com/"]http://www.religious-vocation.com/[/url]

[/quote]

I think Dust is referring to this website.......




I wish (and someone please help!) I could find the thread on VS where I discussed this and someone clarified for me that it was misunderstood on the website. This person on VS said that marriage and consecrated life are both high callings; rather, the calling YOU are called to is the higher of your choices, but marriage isn't to be downplayed. Mother Mary was married, albeit Josephite, but it was marriage. Where would Priests and Nuns come from if not for marriage? My own Spiritual director said that your own calling is the higher/highest calling for you and did not want to downplay marriage at all. I just feel that "vocation station" is about vocations and shouldn't leave out marriage because of thoughts that it is "less." I guess I have misunderstandings about the forum name; it isn't called "consecrated station" so it's confusing. Thoughts?





FOUND IT!!!!


[QUOTE] SISTER MARIE SAID:

I've been watching this thread because I agree that there is something special about religious life (as there is about all the states in life) but I am extremely uncomfortable with the words "perfect" and "superior" to describe religious life. I am newly out of initial formation and so have studied a lot about religious life rather recently and when I saw the first quote from Vita Consecrata I thought... hmm, how did I miss that? After reading those documents over and over and over again... how could I have not gotten that it was a dogma religious life is the objectively superior calling. So I just went to the Vatican website to look at the context of that quote and it gives a much different view and tone when taken in the entire paragraph.

Here is the entire paragraph from Vita Consecrata:

"Within this [u][b][u]harmonious constellation of gifts[/u][/b][/u], [b]each of the fundamental [u][u]states of life[/u][/u] is entrusted with the task of expressing, in its own way, one or other aspect of the one mystery of Christ.[/b] While [i]the lay life[/i] has [i]a particular mission [/i]of ensuring that the Gospel message is proclaimed in the temporal sphere, in the sphere of ecclesial communion [i]an indispensable ministry is carried out by those in Holy Orders,[/i] and in a special way by Bishops. The latter have the task of guiding the People of God by the teaching of the word, the administration of the sacraments and the exercise of sacred power in the service of ecclesial communion, which is an organic communion, hierarchically structured.[u][u]As a way of showing forth the Church's holiness, [i]it is to be recognized that the consecrated life,[/i] which mirrors Christ's own way of life, [i]has an objective superiority[/i]. [/u][/u]Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of Gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church's purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. [b]The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery,will be achieved, and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God[/b] (cf. [i]Mt [/i]22:30).The Church has always taught the pre-eminence of perfect chastity for the sake of the Kingdom,and rightly considers it the "door" of the whole consecrated life.[b]She also shows [u][u]great esteem[/u][/u] for the [u][u]vocation to marriage[/u][/u], which makes spouses "witnesses to and cooperators in the fruitfulness of Holy Mother Church, who signify and share in the love with which Christ has loved his Bride and because of which he delivered himself up on her behalf".In this perspective, common to all consecrated life, there are many different but complementary paths.[/b] Men and women Religious [i]completely devoted to contemplation [/i]are in a special way an image of Christ praying on the mountain.Consecrated persons engaged in [i]the active life[/i] manifest Christ "in his proclamation of the Kingdom of God to the multitudes, in his healing of the sick and the suffering, in his work of converting sinners to a better life, in his solicitude for youth and his goodness to all".Consecrated persons in [i]Secular Institutes[/i] contribute in a special way to the coming of the Kingdom of God; they unite in a distinctive synthesis the value of consecration and that of being in the world. As they live their consecration in the world and from the world,"they strive to imbue everything with an evangelical spirit for the strengthening and growth of the Body of Christ".For this purpose they share in the Church's evangelizing mission through their personal witness of Christian living, their commitment to ordering temporal affairs according to God's plan, and their cooperation in service of the ecclesial community, in accordance with the secular way of life which is proper to them."

I think the tone is quite different in the full context. I would reframe this conversation to say that the single life, married life, consecrated life, and priesthood all show an image of who God is and what He is doing in our world - they image the eternal Kingdom. A man and a woman image in matrimony the final wedding between the Bride - the Church and the Bridegroom - Christ. According to John Paul's Theology of the Body, their love images directly the giving, receiving, and life giving nature of the Trinity... THAT IS HUGE! Meanwhile, priests offer us the great opportunity to experience Christ in the sacraments. The sacrifice of their lives in imitation of Christ is an image of the eternal love of Christ for His Church. In my mind and heart, what is implied by this "objectively superior" language is just that we as religious have already wed Christ in that eternal marriage feast. When I say "just" I don't mean to say that it is not profound but it certainly doesn't make US superior - all it means is that the image we offer is more closely linked to the heavenly marriage that awaits. It certainly also does not make us more perfect.

I am so blessed right now to work in a school with some of the most dedicated teachers I have ever met and you know what - they are a million times holier than I can even hope to be. I am in awe of them and God continually uses them as an example to me of how to live a committed Christian life of love and service. I am continually humbled by them.

I'm sorry if I sound like a lunatic, haha. This is a really "heavy" topic and I don't believe that Christ would ever want us to cringe at our own calling when compared with another but I found myself cringing a little bit as I read. I reread this post a few times and I'm still not quite happy with it either... haha. You are all so precious to God and He desires your love. That is all. Everything else is a detail - important but still only details. Know I'm praying for you.

Sister Marie

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/115168-higher-vocation/page__view__findpost__p__2296062"]source[/url]
[/quote] Edited by JoyfulLife

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Totus Tuus
[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1325094333' post='2358597']
OK, once again, my lack of communication skills has gotten me in trouble.
[b] "Don't start threads focusing on marriage in here."[/b]
[/quote]

The clarification is good, but I still disagree with the rule. But I'm not the person who works to keep these boards running. I've said what I believe and out of respect (because you actually do deserve it) I will leave it at that.

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