23 replies to this topic

[MIkolbe]

WARNING

THIS MAY BE A TL;DR.....well.... it IS a tl;dr...

Last night I went to dinner, with my wife, at the non-catholic church where she has MOPS. MOPS is like a Mom's group...pretty razzle dazzle. And we have done other activities with this church like bowling, pizza nights..pretty razzle dazzle stuff. Nice people. Very nice people.

So, I was debating on whether or not to go to this dinner, as it is a series of dinners over 5 weeks; and it is aimed at informing the community of who they are and what they do (as a church), with the obvious purpose of gaining more members. Shea told me the pastor 'really wants you to come', as she has a propensity to let everyone know that I am a 'mega-catholic', her terms not mine. In talking with Shea about this, I expressed reluctance because I did not want us to take the place of a couple who was serious about joining this church, nor did I want to waste their money in feeding me. (insert fat joke here) The pastor and associate pastor assured her it was no imposition; so we went.

It started with a tour of the grounds, then up to where dinner was to be served with some chit chat...then dinner..then 'the talk'...

'The talk' was about their church, they 'were' episcopalian, but there was a lawsuit and they decided to split, and now they have to wait 4 years before becoming anglican. It was really confusing. They mentioned they needed to split as the people they split from, 'no longer followed the Bible', which elicited a wide, ironic smile from me.

They then talked about Baptism. I would say a Catholic could agree, at some level, with what they believe about Baptism, but then on many levels, one could not. Obvs, they do not see it as a sacrament, from what I gathered, they do not see it as salvific, as they only baptize 4 times a year and said, 'Jesus loves kids, so if they are not baptized in time they will still make it to Heaven.' And even as I type that, I can see how that is 'somewhat' true (when Baptism of Desire is taken into consideration) but it smacks of taking God for granted, imho.

At that point, a Catholic woman asked about the level of 'schooling' needed to Baptize; then offered how the Catholic Church required 70 hours of schooling in order to get her child baptized. At which point I blurted out, '70 hours? Seven Zero Hours? I think you might be mistaken'. Then I told her about the 30 minute video and 30 minute scripture reading and reflection that we experienced and that my parish (nor any parish in the diocese) requires 70 hours. Awkward silence filled the room after I shut up. Turns out, this church would also like an hour with the parents and godparents....

A Baptist spoke up and talked about baptism v. dedication. I was a little lost until it became clear that baptist don't baptize children (on the whole). Then the pastor did break out the Bible and talk about households being baptized (including children)...so that was nice to hear.

In the end, I was left with the impression that they believe baptism is more of something God does for you, not you for God. If that makes sense.

Then, another Catholic woman spoke up about the Eucharist, and wanted to know at what age they receive. The answer was whenever the parents feel its right, whenever they feel the child is ready. I felt like saying they could do the same in the Catholic Church as I have known parents who have had thier children 'Eucharized' before the 'regular age', and some who hold off. Also the eastern rites baptize, eucharize, and confirm as infants..(unless I am mistaken). His main argument was Jesus loves children and wants them to sit as His table. Which, in some respects, i agree with; and in some respects are consistent with catholic thought. (as i understand it) Of course, they do not believe in the real presence, but they did not say that....the pastor said the Eucharist was a big deal, but not a huge deal like in the Catholic Church. I was itching to speak up, but shut up. Not exactly sure what I would have said other than, "If you believe it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ; it is pretty much the biggest deal ever." But no... i shut up as he was right it IS a bigger deal for us..so yeah, i shut up.

They seemed very anti-ritual/traditional/ceremony. And I mean anti not negatively. Whenever he spoke he was very respectful about what others believed. He didn't say, "All the pomp and ceremony is stupid and unbiblical"; but he would say, "The last supper was an intimate gathering of Jesus and his disciples. It was not a church altar" Which, is technically correct, and completely wrong at the same time.

At this point, I was feeling some intrepidation. I have already talked and caused an awkward silence. Believe it or not, I try (at times) not to be rude. The pastor guy was running pretty quickly through things, so a part of me did not want to be there till 10pm, perhaps selfish of me. And in the end, you can hear what people say and try to see what you have in common, or focus on how they are wrong. I attempt the former. But I did want to clarify some things...With all this, I thought it best that I shut up.

In the middle of this, the lady who we were sitting at the table with asked if I was Catholic. I laughed and said, 'yes, but a bad one'. She laughed too. She and her husband were/are catholic. She asked if we were joining this church. I said 'no, I am not sure really why I am here; but I'm catholic...I was evangelical for a while, but reverted back to our faith' (I was hoping the use of 'our faith' might have some effect on her, and i still pray it does) She then told me how the Church would not marry her because her husband needed an annulment. Before I could ask, did you try to get one, or anything like that; she said, "Someone very high up said that 'in Jesus' eyes, you two aren't married'". She seemed visibly hurt by this and well, a bit pissed off. I thought, how many times have I acted in a way where I was the freaking 'hammer of truth' and I was 'giving the truth, and by-golly that's what true charity is', without handling the situation like I was talking to a person, but some compilations of rules and regulations. I said what a horrible thing that was to say; and I meant it. I asked her not to judge the Church because of what one idiot says, we believe what we believe because it's what the apostle's believed, straight from Jesus. At which point she was getting alittle annoyed with me (at least I perceived as much), I told her I would pray for her, we smiled, and went back to listening to the pastor.

The evening ended with the best cupcake I ever had in my life and some scripture reading. The pastor read from Mark ch 4 & 5. He mainly spoke about it, almost like a mini-sermon. Very good and brought something out of scripture I had not seen before, and I love it when that happens!!

So we get in the swagger-van to come home and Shea says, "why didn't you say anything", and I was all like "whatchu talkin' 'bout, willis?" She said the pastor wanted me to come so I would say stuff. I was like,'what kind of stuff?", and she said, "iono, catholic stuff'. So then I became, and still am, all confused. I mean, that church is showing people what they do.. I mean, I can keep everyone there for hours, because, ask around, I can talk....what if people get sick of me talking? Do I chime up alittle, but not alot..what is alittle, what is alot? And honestly, I do try to concentrate on similarities rather than differences; and I don't WANT a fight, but i don't want to hide from one either; and nothing that was said was rude. It was all very repsectful..

So I am confused..

What should I do in this regard?

[Luigi]

If the pastor wanted you there as a foil - to ask questions, to make remarks that he could use as a stimulus to clarify his own church's teachings - then he should have drafted you specifically for that role, given you a script (or at least an expectation of your role in this little improvised drama), and scheduled rehearsals.

Further evidence, imho, that many Christian denominations define themselves by their differences with the Catholic Church than by developing their own theology.

[Papist]

It would have been nice to know the pastor's wants before attending. But you can't change that now. Use this as a learning experience. I find it that best way[for me] is to ask questions that are through the lens of your Catholic faith. You will come off as trying to learn what they believe, and not challenging their beliefs. And hopefully, he/they will ask you questions. Be open and honest. This may be the only chance some people hear the real Catholic teachings on stuff.

[MIkolbe]

If the pastor wanted you there as a foil - to ask questions, to make remarks that he could use as a stimulus to clarify his own church's teachings - then he should have drafted you specifically for that role, given you a script (or at least an expectation of your role in this little improvised drama), and scheduled rehearsals.

Further evidence, imho, that many Christian denominations define themselves by their differences with the Catholic Church than by developing their own theology.

ok, so what advice do you have?

one the one hand, I can be used to clarify his position.

on the other hand, maybe (hopefully) something I say can click with someone? (granted remote possibilty)

I do not think i have the mental capacities to go toe to toe with someone who has had years of theological teachings, and i don't want it to be a tit-for-tat debate, but a part of me ( perhaps the romantic side of me) feels like I was put there for a reason. And yet, i don't say anything.. iono.. i am confused.

[Papist]

If the pastor wanted you there as a foil - to ask questions, to make remarks that he could use as a stimulus to clarify his own church's teachings - then he should have drafted you specifically for that role, given you a script (or at least an expectation of your role in this little improvised drama), and scheduled rehearsals.

Further evidence, imho, that many Christian denominations define themselves by their differences with the Catholic Church than by developing their own theology.

I run into these people a lot. It's like they don't belief in something just b/c it is a "Catholic" thing.

[Basilisa Marie]

Let me preface by saying that I'm just a dumb 23-year-old kid, so please let this fact inform how you read my post.

I think you probably did the right thing by doing a lot more listening than speaking, at least for this first meeting. Most of my friends back home are strong Christians, but not Catholic, and when we go out for drinks we almost always end up talking about Christianity and the Bible and such. Most are non-denoms that know their scripture very well but attend "mega-churches", one's studying to become a Methodist minister, another is a strict Presbyterian, and the one other Catholic is very pro-birth control, co-habitation and gay marriage, so it keeps things interesting. The most fruitful conversations seem to come from trying to first establish as much common ground as possible, and really just trying to understand why we believe what we believe. It also has been the best way to dispel untrue notions of Catholicism, and a few times I've been able to convince someone of some Catholic teaching. But I've also heard some of the most amazing spiritual insights into scripture from my non-denominational friends.

It sounds to me like you've stumbled upon a forum where you'd be able to have some really good discussion, in a very respectful way, and maybe even profit from it yourself. If it were me, I'd be open to attending again, and now that you've spent one meeting mostly listening, I'd be more comfortable asking more questions, maybe "defending" (for lack of a better term, I don't want to include the "aggressive" connotations) basic Church teachings that come up. I've been talking with my same group of Christian friends for about 8 years now, and I've found that the Holy Spirit does a pretty good job of helping me out, and even when I draw a blank, a good "That's interesting, let me get back to you on that after I read up a bit" is very acceptable in the respectful kind of forum I think you're describing.


Edit: BUT if it DOES turn into a giant "look at how I'm not Catholic" sort of thing, kind of like others have said, I'd run away. Far away. It's not worth the headache.

Edited by Basilisa Marie, 07 March 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[Papist]

ok, so what advice do you have?

one the one hand, I can be used to clarify his position.

on the other hand, maybe (hopefully) something I say can click with someone? (granted remote possibilty)

I do not think i have the mental capacities to go toe to toe with someone who has had years of theological teachings, and i don't want it to be a tit-for-tat debate, but a part of me ( perhaps the romantic side of me) feels like I was put there for a reason. And yet, i don't say anything.. iono.. i am confused.

Perhaps the dialog with the pastor is meant for your wife, and/or others. I would not get into a tit-for-tat debate. I loathe those. I would simply ask questions, as a Catholic, trying to learn what they believe, not trying to convert them.

[Luigi]

Practice nodding while half-smiling and sort of mumbling, "That's interesting." If asked a direct question, you could:
1. Answer, if you're confident of the theology;
2. Respond with, "I don't really know all the details about that, but I can send you copy of the Catholic cetechism if you like;"
3. Punt, and say, "I'm here to learn, just like everybody else."

[CatherineM]

You're a good husband for having gone. Being in a mixed marriage is like walking a tightrope at times. Maybe Shea wanted to show you off to the pastor as to how much theology you know.

[Dscherck]

My wife keeps wanting me to come to her bible study at her church. Mainly because I know a lot and can explain things. I feel weird though going to a Presbyterian church's bible study and talking Catholic theology.

[fides' Jack]

Wow!

I basically subscribe to the idea now that if I want to help people become Catholic, I should just get the heck out of the way. I think someone here has a signature to that effect...

That being said, there's nothing I can say that could possibly help you, so I'll just pray for the situation, instead.

I have complete confidence in your ability to present the Catholic faith, and I pray that the Holy Spirit guides you as you try to do what is needed.

[i<3LSOP]

MIkolbe, I know you hate me but please read this post. It doesn't contain too much foolishness...

Okay, so I don't see a problem with going to another meeting and chiming in when you feel it is necessary or when you want to and feel it isn't out of place. It's not like because you are listening to them a lot they are going to convert you, you are a good Catholic man, husband, and father, and you "know your stuff" when it comes to theology, and you are funny and sarcastic... and people like all of that stuff. I have a feeling if you open your mouth... they will all listen to you... but you will need to be ready to defend your Catholic faith.

It sounds like many of the people at this meeting were Catholic, and if they are there again then you maybe could gently bring them back around to the Catholic faith! Honestly, I'd view it as an opportunity... remember God works in "mysterious ways" and you could help someone on their path to heaven

Oh and they have cupcakes... so its worth it for those too!

Prayers for 'ya man.

[dUSt]

Next time, just bring a catechism with you, and then start off every sentence with, "I understand why you believe that because I often thought about that, but..."

If for nothing else, just to chime in when they say something about the church that is wrong.

[MIkolbe]

You're a good husband for having gone. Being in a mixed marriage is like walking a tightrope at times. Maybe Shea wanted to show you off to the pastor as to how much theology you know.

Thank you for those kind words...Unfortunately, the more I learn about our faith, the more i realize how incredibly much I don't know....

and Papist when you say this may be their only chance to hear some real Catholic teachings on stuff...I must admit i thought the same thing, and honestly, that scares me. If it's true, or even somewhat true, why me and not like Alysious or someone 'smart'? You see what I mean? I fear I am not good enough. These guys have had years of theological training, and I just kinda like to read stuff. You see what I mean? Perhaps this is a cowardice issue on my end that I just have to get over. But I would be lying if I said thses feelings aren't there...

[BG45]

I can totally hear Shea calling you a mega-Catholic too.

I've never heard of anyone requiring 70 hours of schooling to baptize a kid!! But I can relate to the whole part with the 4 baptisms a year thing. When I was baptised, I went forward with the expectation it was the next week; this had been the standard at my Baptist church until that point. They decided however, that frequent one person baptisms weren't good looking enough and instead wanted quarterly baptisms, one per fiscal quarter so that there would be a larger amount of people to make an impression on everyone. From the sound of things, I think this church has the same line of thinking about baptism; a "look at us, look out how many" attitude.

I would just smile and nod, maybe stepping in if they mis-represent what the Church teaches. I find that in our Theology on Tap sessions, the most ground is made by those who simply do that and then speak up when asked something directly; all the bluster and bombast in the world can't replace a wise description at the right time. I know you know the faith and I think what you did is pretty much what I would suggest.

[Marie-Therese]

Well my friend, I have a question for you. If this series of dinners seems strictly to be a platform for recruitment for their church, why would you go back to another? It seems that by going with Shea the first time, you accomplished what you needed to--supporting your wife and being available to her. Beyond that, dunno why you'd want to go back. I'd ask Shea that, too, honestly. Why would she want to go to another four dinners? Not attending these functions doesn't seem like it has anything to do with her mothers' group or any of her other mutual activities with this church. I mean, if it's because it's supposed to be a theology conversation, then that's one thing. But it didn't sound like that to me.

Imho, it sounds like if the pastor wanted a practicing Catholic there to talk theology, it wouldn't have been to edify themselves on theological issues. This is an established community with a fairly complex history, it sounds. They aren't looking to have their views disproven. Your job as the Catholic was to present views in opposition to theirs, so they could shoot you down. Perhaps it would never have been framed that way, but I can't see anything past that. I highly doubt that a church trying to recruit would be eager to host a series of dinners wherein they vigorously debated someone with disparate theology and had any intention of coming out looking like the loser. That would pretty much kill a recruitment drive, eh? The point was to make themselves look good.

Were it me, I'd give Shea major snuggles, tell her you love her. Tell her your evening was very pleasant and you enjoy her company. If another dinner comes up, just state that you don't see the value in your presence at events that seem to be church recruitment sessions, as you obviously have no intention of attending that church. Plain and simple.

Of course, I'm me, so take my advice fwiw.

[MissyP89]

I think you did the right thing. Lots of props for being able to sit there, wriggle in your seat and try to listen ... I'm not sure how well I would have faired in your shoes.

Sometimes, you have to pick your battles. It sounds like you were there to support Shea and that is what you did.

Beyond that, I can't help but think you were there as a "plant" for the pastor's needs. So many people these days in Protestant churches are fallen away Catholics, and the best way to win converts in that situation is to show "their" theology to be superior to the Church's. That's what it was like for me during my brief stint as an evangelical -- a whole lot of "this is why Catholicism is wrong."

I think you are well above that kind of treatment, and I agree with Peyton. You probably shouldn't go back, especially if it's their equivalent of RCIA.

This, however, was amazing:

They mentioned they needed to split as the people they split from, 'no longer followed the Bible', which elicited a wide, ironic smile from me.

And as for this:

"Someone very high up said that 'in Jesus' eyes, you two aren't married'". She seemed visibly hurt by this and well, a bit pissed off. I thought, how many times have I acted in a way where I was the freaking 'hammer of truth' and I was 'giving the truth, and by-golly that's what true charity is', without handling the situation like I was talking to a person, but some compilations of rules and regulations. I said what a horrible thing that was to say; and I meant it.

I know this situation all too well -- walking that fragile line between telling the Truth and being truly compassionate. We should talk about this soon.

You did good, dude. And I have so much respect for you. <3

[Slappo]

Thank you for those kind words...Unfortunately, the more I learn about our faith, the more i realize how incredibly much I don't know....

and Papist when you say this may be their only chance to hear some real Catholic teachings on stuff...I must admit i thought the same thing, and honestly, that scares me. If it's true, or even somewhat true, why me and not like Alysious or someone 'smart'? You see what I mean? I fear I am not good enough. These guys have had years of theological training, and I just kinda like to read stuff. You see what I mean? Perhaps this is a cowardice issue on my end that I just have to get over. But I would be lying if I said thses feelings aren't there...

This might sound silly, but that sounds like the voice of pride trying to pick at you and prevent you from doing something good. I don't at all doubt that those are strong feelings, but don't give in to them.

Humility is to understand that even as weak as you are and as little you may know about the faith compared to others, God can still use you as a Catholic, with the little orthodox knowledge you have, to effect others.

I have a bachelor's in theology, and I get schooled all the time by my lay friends that have no theological background, because they live the knowledge that I have. They live it, and I just know it. Sometimes I wish I could be more ignorant and more in love with God, than knowledgeable and lacksadaisical in my faith.

[MissScripture]

Thank you for those kind words...Unfortunately, the more I learn about our faith, the more i realize how incredibly much I don't know....

and Papist when you say this may be their only chance to hear some real Catholic teachings on stuff...I must admit i thought the same thing, and honestly, that scares me. If it's true, or even somewhat true, why me and not like Alysious or someone 'smart'? You see what I mean? I fear I am not good enough. These guys have had years of theological training, and I just kinda like to read stuff. You see what I mean? Perhaps this is a cowardice issue on my end that I just have to get over. But I would be lying if I said thses feelings aren't there...

I think a lot of people have asked God the "why me" question...Moses comes to mind. That being said, maybe you need to spend some time asking God what he wants you to do, and if you really are supposed to be there. If you are, then you better go, or you might end up in the belly of a whale.

[eagle_eye222001]

It would have been rude.....improper.....and uncharitable to literally speak up on every tiny-wrong thing the pastor said. Even if you spoke up with what you agreed on, you would have been seen as this person who had to interrupt every 5 seconds and blurt out some great knowledge....whether good or bad.....it would have come across as rude to many people.

In my opinion, you acted quite appropriately. You made an objection at something that was clearly wrong or misleading (the 70 hour Baptism School), but you did so in a good manner as pointing out that this 70 hour thing wasn't widespread as it might have been perceived by the crowd. In such settings, it is best to save your interruptions for the issues that clearly malign or misrepresent the Church...which the 70 hour thing qualifies as.

When you ran into the woman and the annulment she didn't get, you gave a quite appropriated response. Such an event is not a time to get into a 20 minute discussion of why she is still wrong....such is quite the opportunity to come across as a caring praying person. This woman needs to see prayerful caring Catholics over this difficult situation.

They mentioned they needed to split as the people they split from, 'no longer followed the Bible'

If the pastor wanted a Catholic comment on everything, it should have been much more explicit to you and the group. Then the group would understand that your interruptions were not rude, but planned, and they would have a tendency to listen more.

Knowing when to speak up and when to shut up can be difficult....but your actions seemed pretty obvious to me. If you speak up too much, people stop listening. Have to make the one or two interruptions count.