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Are Catholic Women Today Too Strong For The Men?

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Norseman82
[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1332822549' post='2409031']
Matrimony is good and no one is saying otherwise. It is a vocation and a sacrament. Being married is how some people are called to serve God. This doesn't mean that we put our value and worth in whether we are married or not. Our value and worth comes from God. As I've read one woman write, that relationships are reflections of God's love, not replacements for God. God comes first, the spouse comes second, and then come ourselves.

If a woman says that she is focusing on God instead of getting married is probably discerning the religious life.

The women that you appear to be complaining of are those who only think of themselves. One woman did a public display of this when she married herself. [url="http://www.inflexwetrust.com/2012/03/18/woman-marries-herself-in-a-symbolic-ceremony/"]http://www.inflexwet...bolic-ceremony/[/url]
[/quote]

I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.

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Norseman82
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1332822223' post='2409029']
Funny that you put marriage in quotations, since, as you will notice, I did not ever say marriage. I said "having a guy". And by that, I didn't mean marriage. I meant the mentality that a woman is not complete with out a man's approval.
[/quote]

"This one, at last, is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh".

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Basilisa Marie
[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332818942' post='2409015']
I thought it was God Who said "It is not good for the man to be alone". It is clear from the Bible that we were not built to be alone. But the message of the past 40 years is the opposite. Look at the results.
[/quote]

Yes, God did say that. But if we look at the Hebrew, the word "man" means Human, not Male Human. Many ancient Jews had a pious tradition that the first human actually had two faces, one on the front and the other on the back. When God created woman, he split the human in half. That is partly why marriage was such a holy estate in Judaism, and why there was a stigma on men and women who did not marry, because marriage was a special kind of fulfillment that was meant from the moment of creation. It makes the "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh" even more poignant.

But all of that still doesn't change that the only man that a woman needs to be fulfilled is Christ. There is something seriously wrong if a woman bases her self-worth on a man. Of course marriage is wonderful, and highly undervalued in our society today. But a woman cannot be happy if she centers her life on anyone but Christ.

Norseman, we're not saying anything bad about marriage. We're saying there's a problem when a woman derives her dignity from a man, because on some level that makes her subhuman, if the measure of human dignity is a man's dignity.

If by the last forty years you're talking about the sexual revolution, rise in abortions and contraception, sex outside of marriage, children out of wedlock, and rise in divorce, you cannot blame that on women. Men, just as much as women, are responsible for this general trend. It takes two to tango. Yes, the feminist movement greatly contributed to these evils. But we cannot throw out feminism as a whole, because in doing so we deny the equal dignity of women.


[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1332819926' post='2409021']
Stop there.

If you want to support true feminism, forget what the rest of the world is doing, saying and thinking and do it! Yes, feminism as it's meant to be has been corrupted. Satan hates anything truly empowering and dignity-affirming. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it's become what it is today.

We can either stand up and reclaim feminism, or we can cave to the temptation of bitterness and despair.
[/quote]

^ YES.

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missionseeker
[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825385' post='2409039']
"This one, at last, is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh".
[/quote]

OH! I'm so sorry.

OF COURSE a woman is nothing without man's approval. Her worth IS rooted in subjugation to a man. No woman should think otherwise. Or possibly at all.


How silly of me. I was so close to being a happy, well balanced, strong, educated, and independent woman. Thank you for stopping that trainwreck.

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franciscanheart
[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332801945' post='2408894']
The real question is whether the "strong" women who "have it all together" are even interested in geting married due to buying in to the whole "independent", "you don't need a man" philosophy that has poisoned our culture since the 1970s.
[/quote]
I think this is less popular a genuine ideal than it is made out to be. That's my experience, anyway, and I have many friends of varying ages (even beyond 60).

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825315' post='2409038']
I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.
[/quote]
:huh: That's weird.

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1332825801' post='2409043']
OH! I'm so sorry.

OF COURSE a woman is nothing without man's approval. Her worth IS rooted in subjugation to a man. No woman should think otherwise. Or possibly at all.


How silly of me. I was so close to being a happy, well balanced, strong, educated, and independent woman. Thank you for stopping that trainwreck.
[/quote]
I think there's been a breakdown in communication someplace. I didn't see where any of this was said or implied. I understand the frustration, to be sure, but I don't think anyone in this thread is talking on a separate page from anyone else. Just my feeling.

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Adrestia
[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825315' post='2409038']


I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.
[/quote]

Based solely on your posts, I would think that you have a negative view of women. How do you talk to women that you meet in real life? I hope it's not like this.

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Slappo
If God is calling a woman (I get to men in the next sentence) to the vocation of marriage, and she refuses to get married until she finds her "St. Joseph" she very well may be neglecting her vocation and putting the salvation of many souls as stake by doing so. The same falls true for those men out there that are called to marriage and are just waiting until they find their "Mary".

You don't marry a perfect person. Women, you don't have a St. Joseph out there waiting for you, and men, you don't have an Immaculate Conception out there waiting for you to find her. Don't neglect your vocation until you find Mr. or Ms. Right. Everyone comes with baggage, you just have to find someone that has a bag that you can carry.

Marriage isn't easy. It is a sacrifice. It is difficult. It can be burdensome sometimes. It calls you to deny yourself for the sake of your family over and over again every day for the rest of your life. It is also one of the most joy filled experiences you will ever have this side of heaven, but don't let that sugar coat the reality of the challenge, sacrifice, and suffering involved. I think any married person on this board will admit that marriage can be very difficult and will push you to your limits and beyond, but that it is also one of the best experiences in life.


Edit: I realized as I wrote this that it got way off topic, but I didn't want to delete it after dwelling on this for 20 minutes :). Edited by Slappo

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MissScripture
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1332850575' post='2409089']
Intimidated? no. Inspired? yes, absolutely.

It is my hope that this doesn't come off selfish, but why would I "want" a woman who DIDN'T have it together? If I want some timid Betty who bends to my every will and desire out of some gender based passivity and an inability to think for herself; I'll get a dog.

As to the second question, I would say as long as no one is trying to be intimidating; then you really can't be held responsible if others find you that way. Be you. I mean, we all make small tweaks to ourselves out of love for the other; but I don't think it's right that women should have to somehow 'shield' who they are for the sake of a guy's ego.
[/quote]
:love:

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franciscanheart
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1332850575' post='2409089']
Intimidated? no. Inspired? yes, absolutely.

It is my hope that this doesn't come off selfish, but why would I "want" a woman who DIDN'T have it together? If I want some timid Betty who bends to my every will and desire out of some gender based passivity and an inability to think for herself; I'll get a dog.

As to the second question, I would say as long as no one is trying to be intimidating; then you really can't be held responsible if others find you that way. Be you. I mean, we all make small tweaks to ourselves out of love for the other; but I don't think it's right that women should have to somehow 'shield' who they are for the sake of a guy's ego.
[/quote]
I'm glad someone was finally honest. Thank you for this.

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BG45
[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1332794919' post='2408856']
The first doubt is solved by one simple question, the other by an adjustment in perspective. When we are right sized, we know exactly who we are and for whom we can do much to promote their chances of becoming a saint.
[/quote]

Very true! :) And men are also called to help their future spouse towards sainthood also.
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1332850575' post='2409089']
Intimidated? no. Inspired? yes, absolutely.

It is my hope that this doesn't come off selfish, but why would I "want" a woman who DIDN'T have it together? If I want some timid Betty who bends to my every will and desire out of some gender based passivity and an inability to think for herself; I'll get a dog.

As to the second question, I would say as long as no one is trying to be intimidating; then you really can't be held responsible if others find you that way. Be you. I mean, we all make small tweaks to ourselves out of love for the other; but I don't think it's right that women should have to somehow 'shield' who they are for the sake of a guy's ego.
[/quote]

Amen. I'm kind of at the point right now where I'm thinking (and praying) on an issue of passivity with someone.

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MissyP89
[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1332872885' post='2409255']
Everyone comes with baggage, you just have to find someone that has a bag that you can carry.
[/quote]

So much beauty packed into one tiny sentence. Good stuff right here!

(Arfink, are you paying attention? :bounce:)

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arfink
[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1332881393' post='2409324']
I'm glad someone was finally honest. Thank you for this.
[/quote]

Now I'm even more confused...

Saying I don't find strong women intimidating but instead struggle with overcoming my own inhibition isn't honest?

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1332884963' post='2409347']
So much beauty packed into one tiny sentence. Good stuff right here!

(Arfink, are you paying attention? :bounce:)
[/quote]

Trying to. Remember that 4 years in seminary actually has made this harder for me, not easier. :/

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missionseeker
[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1332815889' post='2408993']
These kinds of threads always start fights. The kind of fights that come from confusing a stance against modernist "feminism" with chauvinism.

Missionseeker, is it really a surprise to you that many men resent modernist feminism not because they are chauvinists, but because it's actually sexist? I'd love to support a true vision of feminism, but the modern world has corrupted it nearly as much as chauvinism was a corruption of chivalry. (or whatever you call a vision of... man...ism. Don't know what word to use.)
[/quote]

I'm not sure why you are asking me this. I am not throwing around any sort of modern feminist BS. And Modern femininst BS is not what this thread is about. I hate feminism BS as much as you, but I will say that I have had to embrace parts of it to get the men at my work to give me even an ounce of respect. It's better now that they actually respect me.

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1332825315' post='2409038']
I've seen the negativity and criticism of those who seek marriage at Catholic events. Maybe it's something in the Lake Michigan water, but nonetheless it just puts more obstacles in the way of people who are trying to find compatible spouses to start a family with.
[/quote]

Have you ever read the stuff you post? It's some of the most negative towards women that I've ever read on Phatmass. You say negative things and are bitter about women in every single thread I've read that has anything to do with dating or the relationship between men and women.
[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1332825664' post='2409040']
Yes, God did say that. But if we look at the Hebrew, the word "man" means Human, not Male Human. Many ancient Jews had a pious tradition that the first human actually had two faces, one on the front and the other on the back. When God created woman, he split the human in half. That is partly why marriage was such a holy estate in Judaism, and why there was a stigma on men and women who did not marry, because marriage was a special kind of fulfillment that was meant from the moment of creation. It makes the "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh" even more poignant.

But all of that still doesn't change that the only man that a woman needs to be fulfilled is Christ. There is something seriously wrong if a woman bases her self-worth on a man. Of course marriage is wonderful, and highly undervalued in our society today. But a woman cannot be happy if she centers her life on anyone but Christ.

Norseman, we're not saying anything bad about marriage. We're saying there's a problem when a woman derives her dignity from a man, because on some level that makes her subhuman, if the measure of human dignity is a man's dignity.

If by the last forty years you're talking about the sexual revolution, rise in abortions and contraception, sex outside of marriage, children out of wedlock, and rise in divorce, you cannot blame that on women. Men, just as much as women, are responsible for this general trend. It takes two to tango. Yes, the feminist movement greatly contributed to these evils. But we cannot throw out feminism as a whole, because in doing so we deny the equal dignity of women.




^ YES.
[/quote]

Thank you. I was too... sarcastic to really get out what I meant. But you did! Once again your voice of reason is amazing.

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arfink
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1332897830' post='2409451']
I'm not sure why you are asking me this. I am not throwing around any sort of modern feminist BS. And Modern femininst BS is not what this thread is about. I hate feminism BS as much as you, but I will say that I have had to embrace parts of it to get the men at my work to give me even an ounce of respect. It's better now that they actually respect me.
[/quote]

That's good. I don't have a clue what it's like to deal with this stuff, as you are well aware. Thanks.

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