When Jesus died on the cross, why type of sins did he take away? original or actual? or both? Thanks!
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#2
beatitude
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#3
Momma's Boy
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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:48 AM
All sin. Without His salvation, even the slightest sin would bar us from Heaven because its a sin against an infinite God who deserves 100% of our devotion. But, in his mercy- John 3:16.
#4
fides' Jack
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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:02 PM
None. He didn't take away sin on the cross. It's still here. You sin, I sin. We're all born with original sin.
He didn't forgive sins by dying on the cross, either. He died on the cross so that sins can be forgiven. It takes confession to do that. And then, through confession, and thus through His death on the cross, we are forgiven.
I think it would be more accurate to say that when He died on the cross, He takes away our sins, since a past event is affecting the forgiveability (anyone else with a bigger vocab want to take a stab at that word?) of our current actions, which of course is only something that God can do, since God is eternal.
Or is it that His death on the cross is always happening in the Sacrifice of the Mass, and therefore it is through the Sacrifice of the Mass (which is the same as the Sacrifice at Calvary) that we are able to be forgiven?
Very deep theological issue. If you understand it, let me know, cause I don't think I do.
He didn't forgive sins by dying on the cross, either. He died on the cross so that sins can be forgiven. It takes confession to do that. And then, through confession, and thus through His death on the cross, we are forgiven.
I think it would be more accurate to say that when He died on the cross, He takes away our sins, since a past event is affecting the forgiveability (anyone else with a bigger vocab want to take a stab at that word?) of our current actions, which of course is only something that God can do, since God is eternal.
Or is it that His death on the cross is always happening in the Sacrifice of the Mass, and therefore it is through the Sacrifice of the Mass (which is the same as the Sacrifice at Calvary) that we are able to be forgiven?
Very deep theological issue. If you understand it, let me know, cause I don't think I do.
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#5
fides' Jack
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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:04 PM
Oh, this would be a good one for Cappie!
#6
Slappo
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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:17 PM
None. He didn't take away sin on the cross. It's still here. You sin, I sin. We're all born with original sin.
He didn't forgive sins by dying on the cross, either. He died on the cross so that sins can be forgiven.
Very true
I think it would be more accurate to say that when He died on the cross, He takes away our sins, since a past event is affecting the forgiveability (anyone else with a bigger vocab want to take a stab at that word?) of our current actions, which of course is only something that God can do, since God is eternal.
Or is it that His death on the cross is always happening in the Sacrifice of the Mass, and therefore it is through the Sacrifice of the Mass (which is the same as the Sacrifice at Calvary) that we are able to be forgiven?
Very deep theological issue. If you understand it, let me know, cause I don't think I do.
I think what you're struggling with expressing is that the sacrifice at calvalry transcends time. Through the mass we are not "going back in time" to the sacrifice of calvalry. That same sacrifice is made present.
It is also important to understand that we are not sacrificing Christ over and over again with every mass. That's what a lot of Protestants think we mean when we say the sacrifice of calvalry is present at every mass.
Edited by Slappo, 02 May 2012 - 12:17 PM.
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#7
fides' Jack
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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:28 PM
Very true
I think what you're struggling with expressing is that the sacrifice at calvalry transcends time. Through the mass we are not "going back in time" to the sacrifice of calvalry. That same sacrifice is made present.
It is also important to understand that we are not sacrificing Christ over and over again with every mass. That's what a lot of Protestants think we mean when we say the sacrifice of calvalry is present at every mass.
Yes - thanks for the clarification!
#8
cmotherofpirl
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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:54 PM
None. He didn't take away sin on the cross. It's still here. You sin, I sin. We're all born with original sin.
He didn't forgive sins by dying on the cross, either. He died on the cross so that sins can be forgiven. It takes confession to do that. And then, through confession, and thus through His death on the cross, we are forgiven.
I think it would be more accurate to say that when He died on the cross, He takes away our sins, since a past event is affecting the forgiveability (anyone else with a bigger vocab want to take a stab at that word?) of our current actions, which of course is only something that God can do, since God is eternal.
Or is it that His death on the cross is always happening in the Sacrifice of the Mass, and therefore it is through the Sacrifice of the Mass (which is the same as the Sacrifice at Calvary) that we are able to be forgiven?
Very deep theological issue. If you understand it, let me know, cause I don't think I do.
The crucifixion happened once. At Mass we are present at Calvary at the foot of the Cross.
#9
fides' Jack
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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:03 PM
What are you saying?
Is it Christ's sacrifice that is brought to us in the Mass (not over and over again, but continuously), or is it that the Mass brings us (not over and over again, but continuously) to the Christ's sacrifice?
I think it's more the former, but I could be wrong.
Is it Christ's sacrifice that is brought to us in the Mass (not over and over again, but continuously), or is it that the Mass brings us (not over and over again, but continuously) to the Christ's sacrifice?
I think it's more the former, but I could be wrong.
#10
cmotherofpirl
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Mother of Phatmass
Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:57 PM
The Mass bring us to Calvary with Mary.
#11
cmotherofpirl
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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:13 PM
"Most Catholics rightly understand the Eucharist to be a memorial of the Last Supper, the re-enactment of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on Calvary. Yet, this description only scratches the surface of the remembrance of a past event, for Catholic theology of the Eucharist borrowed a very important understanding from our Jewish roots: namely, that in celebrating the past event the people involved in the celebration are actually taking part in the original event itself. When the Jewish people gather to celebrate Passover each year, they are not merely remembering the past event of freedom from Egypt, but rather the event of the past becomes present to them in the celebration of the pasch. For Catholic theology, that experience is the very essence of celebrating the Passover of Christ: in the remembrance ritual of the Mass the sacrifice of Jesus becomes present to us so that we are present to that event."
from Pray the Mass: http://praythemass.o...e-and-the-mass/
from Pray the Mass: http://praythemass.o...e-and-the-mass/
#12
CatholicWing
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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:59 PM
'The sin of the world'.
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)
#13
cappie
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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:13 PM
Did Jesus take all our sins upon Himself when He died on the cross? It is true that Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). It is also true that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross so we might die to sin and live to righteousness (1 Peter 2:24).
When we read these verses without the benefit of an Old Testament understanding of what is being addressed, it certainly does appear that Jesus bore all our sins on the cross. This would make him a scapegoat; a substitute for us and our sinfulness. There are absolutely no biblical texts which when read in proper context portray Jesus as a scapegoat or state that He supplied total satisfaction for our sins. We are required to become living sacrifices (Romans 12:1); to join our sacrifice with that of Jesus the Christ which is being offered perpetually in heaven. Jesus’ death on the cross accomplished our redemption and made our salvation possible, it opened
heaven for us; a heaven which had essentially been closed to mankind since the sin of Adam and Eve.
To understand the difference between a sin offering, through which expiation of sins is gained, and a scapegoat, through which removal of all sinfulness was done, we must look at sixteenth chapter of the book of Leviticus which describes Yom Kippur, the day of atonement (at-one-ment, being made one with God), which occurs once
each year in the Jewish calendar.
The goat which was killed was to provide atonement for the defilements of the holy places (sanctuary, meeting tent and altar) so that further individual offerings during the year would be pleasing to God. This was not only an atonement, but also a consecration of these holy places. Jesus’ death on the cross did away with the necessity for this repeated sacrifice. “But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took His seat forever at the right hand of God; now He waits until His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.” (Hebrews 10:12-14)
The scapegoat however, was not killed. The priest imposed hands on this goat and confessed the people’s sins, thus bringing about a transmission of the sins to the goat. Carrying its evil burden, it was led off into the desert thus removing the evil from the people’s midst. This ceremony did not remove the obligation for the individual to make individual atonement for his specific sins. Since Jesus is not a scapegoat, how are our sins removed? Jesus took care of this by empowering His Apostles and those they ordained and their successors with the ability to forgive sins. “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:23) How do we know that this ability was passed along to those the Apostles ordained and their successors? Because Jesus told them “As the Father has sent me, so I send you” (John 20:21). How was Jesus sent by His Father? With authority; what He did was binding. He ordained the Apostles and gave them the same authority, which included among other things, ability to forgive sins.
When we read these verses without the benefit of an Old Testament understanding of what is being addressed, it certainly does appear that Jesus bore all our sins on the cross. This would make him a scapegoat; a substitute for us and our sinfulness. There are absolutely no biblical texts which when read in proper context portray Jesus as a scapegoat or state that He supplied total satisfaction for our sins. We are required to become living sacrifices (Romans 12:1); to join our sacrifice with that of Jesus the Christ which is being offered perpetually in heaven. Jesus’ death on the cross accomplished our redemption and made our salvation possible, it opened
heaven for us; a heaven which had essentially been closed to mankind since the sin of Adam and Eve.
To understand the difference between a sin offering, through which expiation of sins is gained, and a scapegoat, through which removal of all sinfulness was done, we must look at sixteenth chapter of the book of Leviticus which describes Yom Kippur, the day of atonement (at-one-ment, being made one with God), which occurs once
each year in the Jewish calendar.
The goat which was killed was to provide atonement for the defilements of the holy places (sanctuary, meeting tent and altar) so that further individual offerings during the year would be pleasing to God. This was not only an atonement, but also a consecration of these holy places. Jesus’ death on the cross did away with the necessity for this repeated sacrifice. “But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took His seat forever at the right hand of God; now He waits until His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.” (Hebrews 10:12-14)
The scapegoat however, was not killed. The priest imposed hands on this goat and confessed the people’s sins, thus bringing about a transmission of the sins to the goat. Carrying its evil burden, it was led off into the desert thus removing the evil from the people’s midst. This ceremony did not remove the obligation for the individual to make individual atonement for his specific sins. Since Jesus is not a scapegoat, how are our sins removed? Jesus took care of this by empowering His Apostles and those they ordained and their successors with the ability to forgive sins. “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:23) How do we know that this ability was passed along to those the Apostles ordained and their successors? Because Jesus told them “As the Father has sent me, so I send you” (John 20:21). How was Jesus sent by His Father? With authority; what He did was binding. He ordained the Apostles and gave them the same authority, which included among other things, ability to forgive sins.
Edited by cappie, 03 May 2012 - 08:14 PM.
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#14
fides' Jack
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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:43 AM
Thanks, Fr!
