16 replies to this topic

[Annie12]

how come the church hasn't excommunicated public officials who blatantly oppose church teachings on a variety of subjects but still call themselves catholic? It's a disservice to Christs church to have Biden for example endorsing china's one child policy. I have Mixed feelings about this. What do you think?

[cmotherofpirl]

Only God knows,because we poor Catholics don't

[arfink]

Personally, I think we'll probably be seeing more use of the official banhammer in the coming years. The Church is changing a bit- the cafeteria is emptying out, and it's starting to look more like a religion and less like a catch-all.

[CatherineM]

I can only guess, but I suspect that many are afraid to make that step due to tax considerations. Something that looks like we are really attempting to bring pressure to bear on specific politicians could give the bad guys standing to try to pull our tax exempt status.

[Basilisa Marie]

I have no idea. But I don't think it'd be a good idea to use excommunication like a giant ban hammer. What would it accomplish? Really?

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

i think it is easier for priests,cardinals,bishops,nuns and missionary brothers and sisters to get excommunicated than us layity, i know of one case where layity can get zapped real fast and i think it has something to do with the free masons.

Edited by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye, 11 May 2012 - 05:41 AM.

[cmotherofpirl]

I have no idea. But I don't think it'd be a good idea to use excommunication like a giant ban hammer. What would it accomplish? Really?

It would point out that some people have crossed the line when it comes to Church teachings, and if they refuse to recant there is an actual consequence to their behavior. Right now, you can say anything you want, claim to be catholic and get away with it. That is BS..
Think of the moral damage a Nancy Pelosi or a Melinda Gates does with their unequivocal support of contraception, gay marriage etc. If they can do whatever they want and say whatever they want an still get Holy Communion etc and are free to claim to be Catholic then we have no moral high ground at all, and should throw in the towel now. They are damaging the Body of Christ and getting away with it. If you don't draw a line somewhere, then anything is acceptable.

[let_go_let_God]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought by their public actions they were automatically excommunicated.

[cmotherofpirl]

They might very well be. But at this point they still claim to publicly follow Church teaching without challenge or consequence. It is scandal.

[let_go_let_God]

Looking into what it takes to be excommunicated, there are three broad reasons which make it hard for a person to be excommunicated.

• The lack of reason. Children and vulnerable/dependent adults cannot be excommunicated.
• Lack of freedom due to fear. Those who acted because their free will was impeded cannot be excommunicated.
• Ignorance. (this one I'm taking straight from New Advent) "The general principle is, that whosoever is ignorant of the law is not responsible for transgressing it; and whosoever is ignorant of the penalty does not incur it. But the application of this principle is often complicated and delicate."

​New Advent then goes into depth on what can and cannot be called ignorance.

​Excommunication can also only be carried out by their local Bishop. This would take into account some Canonical Jurisdiction issues when it comes to politicians. Is it the Archbishop of DC that can carry out an excommunication, would it be the Bishop of their home diocese or both?

Lastly, are we the laity able to call for the public excommunication of someone or does it have to come from their local Bishop alone?

One quote from New Advent that I found really calls forth to the heart of the matter, why are we calling for excommunication? Is it to reconcile relations between that person and the Church or just to prevent scandal?

Excommunication, it must be remembered, is a medicinal penalty intended, above all, for the correction of the culprit; therefore his first duty is to solicit pardon by showing an inclination to obey the orders given him, just as it is the duty of ecclesiastical authority to receive back the sinner as soon as he repents and declares himself disposed to give the required satisfaction.

[let_go_let_God]

I also want to state that, I'm bringing this up to be further educated on the matter of excommunication, as I am not a canon lawyer. Maybe Catherine can come in and share a bit more with us. This is what I found in a brief research into the topic.

I do agree that public officials who "publicly profess" to being Catholic should be held accountable in public; but through my lack of knowledge, I do not know if excommunication is the right course of action.

[qfnol31]

Excommunication can also only be carried out by their local Bishop. This would take into account some Canonical Jurisdiction issues when it comes to politicians. Is it the Archbishop of DC that can carry out an excommunication, would it be the Bishop of their home diocese or both?

Cardinal Wuerl has said that DC politicians fall under their local bishop from back home since they don't really live here. Actually, if it really were up to the DC area bishop, Bishop Loverde would be at least as responsible since many politicians reside in the Diocese of Arlington.

Cardinal Wuerl said that he will respect the decisions of the bishops, like Bishop Neumann in Kansas who told Sebelius to stop going to Holy Communion.

Edited by qfnol31, 11 May 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[Annie12]

Thanks for all the replies! This issue bugs me. I don't like how people who claim to be catholic are the public examples of lay catholics these days. Then the media has stupid facts which subsequently lead to the mentality that "catholic lay people matter more than the bishops" and all that. Just a thought... Bishops are Americans too!!!! sheesh!

I do recognize though, that we all sin and that we all should have an opportunity to be right with God through confession. It's just that they are in blatant opposition to many church TEACHINGS. they aren't just stumbling but they are coming out against the church. I thought Catholics were supposed to be one not "one" and "oh! 2/3s". I guess all we can do is pray that they come to their senses

[CatherineM]

You can excommunicate yourself by your actions, but if you don't recognize the Church's authority in the first place, you will continue to present yourself for communion as if it is a right. If no one turns you away, well that's why I don't EMHC anymore.

[cmotherofpirl]

Catherine are excommunications public knowledge or private communications?

[CatherineM]

Latae Sententiae excommunications are engaging in something that automatically excommunicates you, such as punching the pope or procuring and abortion. The list of offenses are very public. The problem is that people can differently define things such as "procure." Obviously having one qualifies, but many believe that helping to keep abortion legal counts too. Formal excommunications are a court proceeding. I have never been involved in one, so have no idea how public they are.

Basically we need for someone very public, and very high up to say definitively that pro-choice politicians and judges have excommunicated themselves. They need to be very forcefully and publicly backed up by the Vatican. We've had a few say that it is obvious, or that it applies to people in their diocese, but they just don't get across the board support.

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought by their public actions they were automatically excommunicated.

Possibly depends if there delibrately denying something that has been official stamped a matter of faith and morals. If it isn't a matter of faith and morals that has been declared undistputable truth one can not get excomunicated maybe ?