20 replies to this topic

[sixpence]

I don't know if someone already posted this, but one of the priests from my parish just posted it on facebook, and I thought it was pretty educational given all the stuff I keep hearing in the media about the topic!!

http://www.ncregiste..._medium=twitter

[ClareOfAssisi]

I posted a few paragraphs from Bishop Blair's commentary in my comments on one of the articles at the National "Catholic" Reporter.... none of them made it through.

Can't say I'm surprised.

[Luigi]

The LCWR is irrelevant. In ten years, they'll all be dead... and God can sort 'em all out.

[Sister Marie]

The LCWR is irrelevant. In ten years, they'll all be dead... and God can sort 'em all out.

Nice to know you are looking forward to my death... too bad it won't be for a little longer than ten years... since I'm only in my 20s.

We may be irrelevant to you but we certainly are not irrelevant to the poor and abandoned we serve.

[Lisa]

I thought the article effectively differentiated the sisters (and their congregations) from the LWCR. It pointed out the great value of the member communities while highlighting a few of the things that have instigated this assessment. It's worth a read, if you haven't done so already.

[Lilllabettt]

Nice to know you are looking forward to my death... too bad it won't be for a little longer than ten years... since I'm only in my 20s.

We may be irrelevant to you but we certainly are not irrelevant to the poor and abandoned we serve.

My question is, do you personally identify yourself as part of the LCWR, or not? Other times I remember you distancing yourself from them, saying they do not speak for you, etc. Am I wrong?

I think something we have to be careful about is the risk this "investigation" will radicalize the "other side." There are people who never were very enthusiastic about the LCWR, but nevertheless are attached to it in some way. You attack it, make them defensive, and they begin associating more in their minds and hearts with this organization -- not because they love it so much but because the attack against it is so vitriolic . (p.s. not saying this is your situation Sister M)

Similar thing happened with gay marriage. Some people wanted gay marriage, but most wanted just civil unions --- but the resistance to civil unions was so vitriolic that a lot of people in the gay community were radicalized --- now civil unions are not enough, only marriage will satisfy them.

[Sister Marie]

I belong to a congregation in which the general superior is a member of the LCWR - not the president, not a board member. The LCWR doesn't speak for me in everything they say - but I am still related to them by the fact that they are my sisters and my congregation is affiliated with them, so when someone says "In ten years, THEY'LL all be dead." I take that as including me.

No, I do not agree with everything they say. I do agree with some of it. The LCWR isn't a church - you don't have to listen to everything it says.

I do personally feel attacked as I read some of the things being said about the LCWR. There are two things happening - the first is that people are ignorant of how the organization even works which is probably where it seems that I am distancing myself from it - because it doesn't have any power over me as a superior would and I am not personally a member because I am not a general superior. They are the ones who are members and they don't all agree with everything put forth from the Board and the leaders of the organization itself.

The second thing that is happening though is that there is such un-Christian hatred being thrown at anyone even somewhat related to the organization that, yes, I do feel myself being pushed closer to them than I was before. To be honest, I almost never even thought about the LCWR before but I am so disgusted with the way people speak of them that I want to distance myself as far from those comments as possible. Which means, as a religious who is more "middle-of-the-road", I am being thrown about because I really don't fit into either the "conservative" or "liberal" model of religious life that are being put forth by both the catholic and secular media. I try as often as I can to offer perspectives from both sides as I see them because I don't think what is being portrayed is accurate.

I cannot imagine that Jesus is looking down on us right now saying, "YES! Teach those heretics a lesson!" "Just wait till they die - then I'll take care of them!" It's a perversion of the nature of the Church, of the Body of Christ, of who Jesus is.

It isn't easy trying to navigate what is happening right now as a sister because I want to give myself, I want to love. That's all. I do not think that Jesus desired this kind of behavior for any of us.

[cmotherofpirl]

Sister do you understand our frustration? We hear it from family, friends, co-workers - anybody who knows we are catholics. Do you understand how maddening it is to hear about the mean old Vatican male pigs who are attacking the angelic little nuns? It doesn't matter if that little nun thinks she is beyond Jesus Christ, that to her it doesn't matter what the Vatican says, or that she teaches heresy on as daily basis? Because she is a little old nun she must be right and those terrible celibate old men must be wrong.

I read the report from the Vatican, I have also read the stuff coming from various orders who have come out swinging at the mere suggestion that what they are doing just might not be orthodox. They are not: riki and the goddess within us and being ok with masturbation is NOT catholic teaching. I am tired of hearing we need "dialogue" on sexual ethics, as if the Church is gonna suddenly ok gay marriage, or second marriages or priestesses or whatever. I have heard Sisters say Jesus didn't know he was God until he was dying on the cross, that St Paul, Paul to them, was a mysogonist who didn't like women, or that he was a closet homosexual. I have seen the Sisters who introduced liturgical dancing, prancing around the altar in little flowing tutus. The list goes on and on.

I had 13 years of Catholic education back in the day (40 years ago) and the dissent in some orders reaches back to then. I remember hearing the mean old bishops line and the supposed shock that women were NOT going to be ordained. This is the kind of stuff that the Vatican has had issues with, and their concern is completely justified.: Interesting article if you haven't seen it yet.
http://douthat.blogs...the-god-within/ You are in your 20's? I have seen this croutons for over 40 years, so am I mad? beaver dam right, I am. And so are the other posters who have been exposed to this over and over again. And what would Jesus think? He drove out the money changers didn't he? So please bear with us as we deal with years of pent up frustration as the house might be get cleaned a bit. The pain is on all sides, not just the good sisters.

The bishops are NOT dissing those thousands of nuns who love Jesus Christ and following the teachings of the Church. But some people have gone off the deep end, the bishops are throwing a lifeline out, I hope some people reach out to catch it.

[Sister Marie]

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about the bishops actually or about the "male pigs." The people I'm disgusted with right now are the holier than thou, ultra conservative, letter of the law people who think that they are above the rest of us. I'm talking about the followers of Christ who think that the world would be better off if we were all dead! The fact that you think that that is justifiable shows a serious problem.

Here are some excerpts from the way the bishops, the leaders, have spoken - note that none of them said they can't wait for the day we are dead so that all the "orthodox" can be at peace:

"The Holy See acknowledges with gratitude the great contribution of women Religious
to the Church in the United States as seen particularly in the many schools, hospitals, and
institutions of support for the poor which have been founded and staffed by Religious over the
years"

"The renewal of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious which is the goal of
this doctrinal Assessment is in support of this essential charism of Religious which has been
so obvious in the life and growth of the Catholic Church in the United States." (Notice the word RENEWAL not DEATH)

I have every right to be angry at the malicious and disgusting comments and generalizations being made about ME and about the sisters I know, especially by people who have no training whatsoever to even begin to analyze religious life. I'm angry yet I can still say that I don't want any of you dead. I don't hope that you die so that I can have my way and live in my nice little perfect catholic world. I cannot believe on a Catholic website that it is acceptable to rejoice in the hopeful death of someone else because of what you think you will gain from it.

On that note I'm going to do what I have been praying about for a while and leave phatmass. I will continue to pray for all of you but I can't be a part of something that condones this kind of viciousness and slander. God bless you.

[cmotherofpirl]

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about the bishops actually or about the "male pigs." The people I'm disgusted with right now are the holier than thou, ultra conservative, letter of the law people who think that they are above the rest of us. I'm talking about the followers of Christ who think that the world would be better off if we were all dead! The fact that you think that that is justifiable shows a serious problem.

Here are some excerpts from the way the bishops, the leaders, have spoken - note that none of them said they can't wait for the day we are dead so that all the "orthodox" can be at peace:

"The Holy See acknowledges with gratitude the great contribution of women Religious
to the Church in the United States as seen particularly in the many schools, hospitals, and
institutions of support for the poor which have been founded and staffed by Religious over the
years"

"The renewal of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious which is the goal of
this doctrinal Assessment is in support of this essential charism of Religious which has been
so obvious in the life and growth of the Catholic Church in the United States." (Notice the word RENEWAL not DEATH)

I have every right to be angry at the malicious and disgusting comments and generalizations being made about ME and about the sisters I know, especially by people who have no training whatsoever to even begin to analyze religious life. I'm angry yet I can still say that I don't want any of you dead. I don't hope that you die so that I can have my way and live in my nice little perfect catholic world. I cannot believe on a Catholic website that it is acceptable to rejoice in the hopeful death of someone else because of what you think you will gain from it.

On that note I'm going to do what I have been praying about for a while and leave phatmass. I will continue to pray for all of you but I can't be a part of something that condones this kind of viciousness and slander. God bless you.

Luigi said NOTHING about you being dead. We both know he is referring to the leadership of the LCWR, and he is correct, God will sort it out in the end, the same as He sorts the rest of us. We all have hot button issues that we take personally, but this is a message board, and its not always personally directed to anyone in particular, and certainly wasn't directed at you.

Nothing I posted was slander or viciousness but actual facts. I never said or implied that you said the bishops, I am telling you what I as a lay person have heard and read. You want us to understand your feelings as a Sister, I want you to understand WHY some of the laity feel the way WE do. Our feelings are just as valid as yours. God bless you too.

[Luigi]

Nice to know you are looking forward to my death... too bad it won't be for a little longer than ten years... since I'm only in my 20s.

We may be irrelevant to you but we certainly are not irrelevant to the poor and abandoned we serve.

I'm not looking forward to anyone's death. I have two aunts - 83 and 78 - in a congregation that belongs to the LCWR. They have served the Church loyally and faithfully for over fifty years each as religious sisters.

But their congregation has shrunk, in my lifetime, from something like 1200 sisters to less than 400. They currently have two sisters in formation - a good thing, but not enough to keep the congregation going. I've also seen seven(?) congregations of Dominicans merge into one, because none of them have enough sisters in formation to keep their individual congregations alive - and even after the merger, there aren't enough women in formation to keep the congregation alive. The Sisters of Mercy of the Americas have also merged. The RSCJ's merged from seven provinces into one national province a long time ago, too.

The same thing is happening in the vast majority of the LCWR congregations.

I don't want to see anyone dead - although I know that all of us will eventually die, and that's not a bad thing. My point is about demographics.

[fides' Jack]

I think the "dead" bit was a poor choice of words.

I also think if it wasn't followed by "let God sort 'em out", it might have been easier to believe that it was meant about demographics.

[Luigi]

I think the "dead" bit was a poor choice of words.

I also think if it wasn't followed by "let God sort 'em out", it might have been easier to believe that it was meant about demographics.

The average age of the vast majority of religious women's congregations is something like 78. Do you think they're going to live forever? Would "no longer breathing" be a better choice of words? Death is what usually follows old age... oh wait! death is what always follows old age. It's the natural order of life as designed by our Creator.

God will sort 'em out - the good ones will get their just rewards and the bad ones will get their just desserts. Since God will sort 'em out, I don't have to - I don't have to judge, I don't have to take a side on the doctrinal assessment, I don't even have to have an opinion on the doctrinal assessment.

[jaime]

The average age of the vast majority of religious women's congregations is something like 78. Do you think they're going to live forever? Would "no longer breathing" be a better choice of words? Death is what usually follows old age... oh wait! death is what always follows old age. It's the natural order of life as designed by our Creator.

God will sort 'em out - the good ones will get their just rewards and the bad ones will get their just desserts. Since God will sort 'em out, I don't have to - I don't have to judge, I don't have to take a side on the doctrinal assessment, I don't even have to have an opinion on the doctrinal assessment.

You HONESTLY don't think anyone could take offense to your original statement?

[sixpence]

I agree with Cmom.... even though I have not been around and seen this for decades, it is really upsetting to hear on the radio/tv about how these sisters are getting reprimanded (and it seems that this was needed in the case of the LCWR leadership) and the only view point they ever broadcast are sisters demeaning the bishops, and making comments to the effect that the "hierarchy" has no idea what its talking about because it is not out in the public like the sisters (as if this caused them to suddenly loose their ability to know their own theology). Now I have to turn around and tell friends, oh most sisters are faithful to Church teaching and may not mind seeing this reform in the leadership. But where can I point? I admit that I have not done any thorough investigation, but I have not run across ANY news story featuring a sister who agrees that assessments/reforms were necessary.... I am not accusing anyone of anything, though, for all I know, most sisters are probably too busy attending to their work to be concerned about speaking out, or may not feel it is their place...

[Luigi]

You HONESTLY don't think anyone could take offense to your original statement?

They can take offense if they want to. My personal opinion is that the women religious represented by the LCWR will, in the very near future, be so reduced in numbers due to the demographics of their members as to be no longer a force to be reckkoned with in the Church.

Have they done good work in the past? Yes. Do they do good work now? Yes. Will they be able to sustain their work in the future? Not in the form we know - the majority of their sponsored institutions are already led by lay administrations.

Edited by Luigi, 13 June 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[jaime]

They can take offense if they want to. My personal opinion is that the women religious represented by the LCWR will, in the very near future, be so reduced in numbers due to the demographics of their members as to be no longer a force to be reckkoned with in the Church.

Have they done good work in the past? Yes. Do they do good work now? Yes. Will they be able to sustain their work in the future? Not in the form we know - the majority of their sponsored institutions are already led by lay administrations.

See I dont think anyone would get offended by what you just said right there. But that is waaaay different then "In 10 years they'll all be dead and God can sort them out". Do you not see that?

[USAirwaysIHS]

Whoever cranked the butthurt on PM to 11 recently, I'd thank you to turn it back to where it used to be.

[ClareOfAssisi]

I admit that I have not done any thorough investigation, but I have not run across ANY news story featuring a sister who agrees that assessments/reforms were necessary....

I just came across this: http://www.catholicn...roach-to-faith/

Physicians who are also Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma are criticizing the Leadership Conference of Women Religious and its defenders for using an impoverished “language of politics” instead of “the language of faith” in the dialogue with the Catholic hierarchy.

“They’ve taken this into the public political arena and it no longer stays in the dialogue of faith. Representation is always possible, dialogue is always possible, but it’s with the reverence towards the hierarchical Church.”


She said that the “language of faith” expresses belief in the Church and the authority of the Church. Catholics believe that when the bishops speak, they have “a different degree of authority” than when someone else does.


“In other words, the magisterial Church does direct for us the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as religious women,” she said.


Sr. Firestone said that while Catholics do not believe the bishops are canonized saints, they are “not just ‘a bunch of men.’”


Those who live as religious women should, “live in the dimension of faith all the time” and recognize when they fail to do so, she said.

Read the rest at the link.

Edited by ClareOfAssisi, 14 June 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[sixpence]

I just came across this: http://www.catholicn...roach-to-faith/

Thanks!!