15 replies to this topic

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

Pax domini bretheren,sympathiesers and others...
I have been thinking long and hard about the line in one of father fortunas songs where he says the gospes say that "if you don't eat of his flesh and drink of his blood you will not have life." and than he says "that means your dead." Maybe i took this the wrong way but i took it as an attack against the other churches and the non denominational christians and others that attend none of the above. (not including catholics.) Which has lead me to think well what of spiritual communion, the holy catholic church allows for spiritual communion of the precious body and blood by her members, than why not aknowledge those outside of her so to speak? And than theres also those whom just cry out "help me GOD." I need to make myself completely and utterly clear that i still believe the holy sacraments are the surest and best way to recieve christ into our hearts in his fullness. But surely other christians outside of the holy roman catholic church recieve half life or something including those whom believe in GOD but have no affiliations and possibly not baptised, like the good thief on calvary. Anyhow please alert me to anything i have just stated which is contrary to faith,hope and love in jesus name.

JESUS iz LORD.
Onward christian souls.
God is good, God is love, God saves.

[MissyP89]

It might seem harsh, like Scripture is rejecting the beliefs of those other Christians, but the truth is that Christians who reject the Eucharist are rejecting the truth. That might not seem fair, but it is what's true.

As for those who cry out to God ... it's a start, and a very important step. God definitely sees that and is merciful. He knows our hearts and our intention; only He can judge that. There is hope for them. But God would much rather us live the life He desires, with ALL the grace we can receive, which is why only Catholicism holds the full truth of faith.

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

It might seem harsh, like Scripture is rejecting the beliefs of those other Christians, but the truth is that Christians who reject the Eucharist are rejecting the truth. That might not seem fair, but it is what's true.

As for those who cry out to God ... it's a start, and a very important step. God definitely sees that and is merciful. He knows our hearts and our intention; only He can judge that. There is hope for them. But God would much rather us live the life He desires, with ALL the grace we can receive, which is why only Catholicism holds the full truth of faith.

So is you definately believe spiritual communion is invalid ?

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

or valid? But anyhow i just need to state my position on such things is that there are varying levels of holyness below GOD the holy trinity, the highest level below GOD being the holy mother the chosen one amongst all peoples. So to say somone whom simply has been baptised and believes is not holy is contrary to our catholic beliefs and the holy bible. It is true that there is one holy catholic and apostolic church and we believe the holy mass is the highest form of prayer and i assume worship on earth. Surely it doesn't mean that other believers are un-holy. Than what does it mean to believe? To pray(knock.) and seek the will of GOD(examine holy scripture and forebearance). Though i am glad to be a christian member of the holy catholic church i will not discount any baptised believer chance of holyness.

Onward christian souls.
JESUS iz LORD.
GOd is good,God is love,God saves.

JC "be baptised and believe and you will be saved." "knock and the door will be opened." "seek and you will find."

[Archaeology cat]

Spiritual communion is different, though, fr it is when you absolutely cannot receive for whatever reason. It is not the same as actually receiving, but an expression of desire to receive Jesus, despite not being able to do so at that time. M son begs to receive the Eucharist, but at 4 years old isn't old enough in the Latin Rite, so I try to teach him about making a spiritual communion for now. It isn't the same, but I trust God sees his desire.

Edited by Archaeology cat, 14 June 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[cappie]

A "spiritual Communion," an act expressing what was described by St. Thomas Aquinas as "an ardent desire to receive Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament and in lovingly embracing Him." In a spiritual Communion, we, with contrite, humble hearts, ask our Lord to come to us in the same way He would if we were able to receive the Sacrament. This can be done as often as one likes, informally in one's own words or through one of the traditional prayers which appear below.

What is the value of this practice? The graces received may be as great as -- or greater than -- those received by some people in the actual Sacrament. Though, of course, the Sacrament itself is inherently greater, our disposition toward the Sacrament affect whether and how we receive its fruits.

[Archaeology cat]

A "spiritual Communion," an act expressing what was described by St. Thomas Aquinas as "an ardent desire to receive Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament and in lovingly embracing Him." In a spiritual Communion, we, with contrite, humble hearts, ask our Lord to come to us in the same way He would if we were able to receive the Sacrament. This can be done as often as one likes, informally in one's own words or through one of the traditional prayers which appear below.

What is the value of this practice? The graces received may be as great as -- or greater than -- those received by some people in the actual Sacrament. Though, of course, the Sacrament itself is inherently greater, our disposition toward the Sacrament affect whether and how we receive its fruits.

Thank you for clarifying and wording it better than I, Father.

[maximillion]

What about spiritual communion in its other sense, as in having something spiritual in common, or when we speak of The Church being in spiritual communion with the Orthodox church or other ecumenical aspects....

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

A "spiritual Communion," an act expressing what was described by St. Thomas Aquinas as "an ardent desire to receive Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament and in lovingly embracing Him." In a spiritual Communion, we, with contrite, humble hearts, ask our Lord to come to us in the same way He would if we were able to receive the Sacrament. This can be done as often as one likes, informally in one's own words or through one of the traditional prayers which appear below.

What is the value of this practice? The graces received may be as great as -- or greater than -- those received by some people in the actual Sacrament. Though, of course, the Sacrament itself is inherently greater, our disposition toward the Sacrament affect whether and how we receive its fruits.

So the other christians are showing that desire to recieve jesus in his fullness yes, even though most are unawares of the most holy sacrament his precious body and blood and the whole rigamoral of indominatble ignorance,what you don't know fully you can't be held accountable for. ?

Edited by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye, 16 June 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[Mark of the Cross]

our disposition toward the Sacrament affect whether and how we receive its fruits.

Is this saying what I think it is? That a person taking the Eucharist half heartedly might not receive it's fruits. And as Tab'le suggests those who do not perceive fully the presence but hold it symbolically with the same reverence may receive its fruits?

[cappie]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the sacraments in the following way:
“The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.” CCC 1131

Through the sacraments, we take part in the grace dispensed by Christ Himself in the signs He instituted. We see that “They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.” Now ordinarily, when we think of disposition, we think physically and spiritually, such as whether we observed the one-hour fast and we are in the state of grace before receiving the Eucharist, or if we have made a proper examination of conscience before confession. These are very necessary to the proper reception of the sacraments, but there is also another dimension that we do not always consider.

This dimension is our attitude and understanding of the sacrament we are about to receive. In order to fully receive the graces flowing from the sacraments, we must have an ardent desire to receive them.

Simply going to mass because we are required to go is not enough to fully benefit from the Eucharist. We must WANT to go to mass, to be in the presence of the Lord our God. We must yearn for the sacrifice of the mass.

We must truly desire to be freed from the burden of our sins in order to receive the graces of the sacrament of reconciliation. We cannot simply resign ourselves to committing a grave sin thinking that we can just go to confession later. This is a serious abuse of the grace of the sacrament.

The sacraments require us to believe in them. They require faith. Before we can receive the Eucharist, we must fully understand that it is the Real Presence of Christ. It is truly the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. It is not a symbol. It is our faith! How can we profess a faith, but refuse to believe it? How can we profess a faith, but be woefully ignorant of it? As Catholics, we must understand and adhere to the basic principles of our faith.

Just as the sacraments require faith from us, they also work to increase our faith. The frequent reception of the sacraments builds us up in grace, so that we may grow closer to the Lord. The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives us the following guidance on this relationship:
"The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the Body of Christ and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen, and express it. That is why they are called 'sacraments of faith.'" CCC 1123

It is with utter amazement that we witness the changes in our faith by the simple act of a good confession and reception of the Eucharist. When we receive these sacraments with the proper disposition, our lives become noticeably changed.

Edited by cappie, 21 June 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

i think i missed a few commas in my previous post

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

by indominatable ignorance i mean either a peson/s have absolutely no knowledge of or are unable to understand something, even if explained multiple times. Though able to grasp many elements of all kinds of things something in-paticular one can not, or even the other end of the scale where the person is slow or limited education or brain damage(including drug and alcohol abuse.) and can't grasp much at all. Unless there is some miraculous intervention it is not possible for all people to grasp all truth, or something like that anyway. A cup is a cup and a bucket is a bucket, both happy when full. Though than a glass could ask to become a bucket if all things are possible to GOD and if it where to advance the kingdom of heaven on earth, but than all has it's place in the kingdom of heaven and as to why a full cup would desire to become a full bucket when already full of content i am unsure. And buckets take longer to fill so if you seem lacking often than be patient, buckets take longer to fill, and if your a cup don't worry about the complaints of the buckets as to why there not full yet. lol


St Paul. "Persistance bears fruits of hope."

Edited by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye, 21 June 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

Which leads me to thinking how many cups does it take to fill up a bucket ? Which leads me to thinking whether a bucket works for the devourer sucking cups dry ? Which leads me to thinking of jesus promise you will never thirst again. Which leads me to think maybe it isn't the buckets that work for the devourer but buckets with holes in them that refuse to have that hole repaired. Which leads me to thinking which one am i, and if i'm a bucket with a hole in it how do i become willing to be repaired. God help me, i don't wan't to devour the cups and the buckets that don't have holes in them, to quench a thirst that never ends because of a hole that if existant i refuse to let GOD repair, because of my pride of constantly trying to repair it myself. Which leads me to think i could be setting a trap to leach you dry. Which if i was would it be in the category of indominatable ignorance which i wouldn''t do delibrately, i'm so confused.

Edited by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye, 21 June 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[Mark of the Cross]

Thanks for your response Father! Just as a matter of point at 12 years of age I took my first communion in the Church of England. It is an experience that 52 years later I still have a vivid recollection of. Now while I had no idea that there were different interpretations of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I was fully aware in my soul of the presence of God at this first event.(I use the word God here because at that time to my knowledge it was just God. Jesus was just his historical embodiment on earth. Now I refer to Jesus more consubstantially with God as Christians do) The CofE teaches, as I think all denominations do that 'Where two or more are gathered there am I.' So logically I would have thought that there can be no difference in belief between them and the Catholic Church. Confusing eh! that's why I asked! I have a better understanding now as most people on this forum do. However I should think that the majority of Catholics in my parish do not fully understand the Eucharist. BTW when I took my first communion as a Catholic, it was also a profound feeling but no less or more than that first one.

Edited by Mark of the Cross, 21 June 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye]

Well Mark of the Cross, i guess don't give others free rent in your head. Meaning don't concern yourself with who is and who isn't. I becomes we, because without the i there is no we. Sounds stupid i know, and whether it is the wisdom of GOD or my own wisdom or something that i have heard from another, that is or isn't from GOD. It sounds good to me though, to be in the world but not of it, if i'm overly concerned about what others are doing i get clutter in all kinds of ways which to my experience has oppressed my desire for prayer,meditation,the holy sacraments and the holy word. I worry to much about what other people are thinking or doing, and get led astray, not purposely by others(possibly sometimes deliberately) but mainly by my own guess work of where exactly other people are at.