fides' Jack Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1339946956' post='2445508'] But...aren't priests supposed to withhold absolution if a person confesses something terrible like that, but hasn't turned him or her self into the authorities? [/quote] I would say only if the nature of the sin makes it a requirement for forgiveness - but I'm not Church scholar. I would think if somebody steals, a penance could be imposed on them requiring them to make up for it in some way in order to be forgiven (like paying the money back). I don't think this applies to state authorities, however, unless the sin was committed against them specifically. Still, [i]way[/i] out on a limb here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340047148' post='2445908'] Wait, so, theoretically, I can murder my sister, confess it to my priest, get absolution because I'm sorry but not sorry enough turn myself in to the civil authorities? I can get away with the perfect crime AND be right with God? I'm confused. [/quote] The formula of contrition to receive absolution does not include turning yourself into civil authorities. That would, in fact, probably amount to works salvation (You can't be forgiven unless you go and do something). The priest would also be asking you to break the seal of confession by alerting the police to your crimes. He can certainly encourage you to turn yourself in, and as I mentioned, he can even offer to go with you if you would like to reveal yourself after leaving the confessional, to him, to make it easier for you. I was in the presence of a man who asked our priest if his wife had been to confession yet and Father simply shrugged his shoulders. He won't even say yes or no. Really, he doesn't necessarily want to know your identity either in confession. Father can't even tell anyone that you have or have not gone to confession not to mention that he can't tell anyone what you may or may have not said. Priests pray for the grace to forget what they heard in confession when they leave. In Reconciliation we are concerned with the state of our soul before God. If I steal a million billion dollars and blow it in Vegas, Father cannot make my absolution dependent on returning the million dollars. He can only make it dependent on three things: 1) Did I confess my sins 2) Am I sorry for what I did? 3) Will I make an effort to amend my life and not commit these sins again. You can see the problem - I'll never make it to heaven since I don't have a million billion dollars, its gone. Father may also withhold absolution if we are in a state of excommunication and he does not have the authority to lift it before granting absolution. Edited to Add: Also, our absolution is not dependent on doing our penance. When we receive absolution grace is returned to our soul right then and there, immediately. If I receive absolution, walk out of the confessional, and am struck by lightening, I go to heaven, assuming I did not commit another mortal sin in those few seconds. Our penance is given to us to aid us in growing in holiness to make up for the temporal spiritual punishment for sin, not the eternal. Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the eternal price of our sin so that we could have access to the Father and be saved. [b]1459[/b] Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1339946956' post='2445508'] But...[b]aren't priests supposed to withhold absolution if a person confesses something terrible like that, but hasn't turned him or her self into the authorities[/b]? [/quote] [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340047148' post='2445908'] Wait, so, theoretically, I can murder my sister, confess it to my priest, get absolution because I'm sorry but not sorry enough turn myself in to the civil authorities? I can get away with the perfect crime AND be right with God? I'm confused. [/quote] To the bolded: aboslutely not. Priests are supposed to withhold aboslution if they do not believe the penitent to be contrite and willing to ammend their lives, but not turning oneself into authorities is not an indicator of either of those things. I can be truly sorry for murdering someone and make a firm resolution to never murder someone again, but choose not to turn myself in to authorities. My not turning myself in isn't an indicator of how sorry I am or if I am willing to ammend my life. More likely it is an indicator of fear of punishment. No criminal is ever "getting away with" crime. They may not face civil punishment, but they do face purgatory or hell unless they recieve forgiveness of mortal sins and sufficient indulgences to avoid purgatory before their death. Edited June 18, 2012 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1340048801' post='2445920'] I would say only if the nature of the sin makes it a requirement for forgiveness - but I'm not Church scholar. I would think if somebody steals, a penance could be imposed on them requiring them to make up for it in some way[b] in order to be forgiven [/b](like paying the money back). I don't think this applies to state authorities, however, unless the sin was committed against them specifically. Still, [i]way[/i] out on a limb here. [/quote] A penance is not assigned as a requirement of forgiveness or absolution (anymore). If I rememeber correctly, penances used to be assigned and fulfilled before absolution was given (early centuries when penance was public). Now we receive absolution before ever leaving the confessional. Whether or not we fulfill our penance we are forgiven of our sins. Failure to fulfill the penance though can result in sin, so penances can't just be ignored either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare~Therese Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1339813942' post='2445260'] Viva Christo Rey! This has been made law many times in history and every time it has failed. There are dozens of priests who have willing given up their lives rather than break the seal of the confessional. [/quote] ^ This. Que viva! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1340050929' post='2445963'] Edited to Add: Also, our absolution is not dependent on doing our penance. When we receive absolution grace is returned to our soul right then and there, immediately. [/quote] It should be added that absolution [i]is[/i] dependent on a sincere intention to fulfill the penance given by the confessor. That's why it's included in most forms of the act of contrition: "I firmly intend, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1340051998' post='2445978'] A penance is not assigned as a requirement of forgiveness or absolution (anymore). If I rememeber correctly, penances used to be assigned and fulfilled before absolution was given (early centuries when penance was public). Now we receive absolution before ever leaving the confessional. Whether or not we fulfill our penance we are forgiven of our sins. Failure to fulfill the penance though can result in sin, so penances can't just be ignored either. [/quote] Thanks for the clarification - I really didn't word it correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 So if I murdered my sister and went to confession, could the priest give me the penance of turning myself in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340060650' post='2446030'] So if I murdered my sister and went to confession, could the priest give me the penance of turning myself in? [/quote] No. He would be ordering you to break the seal of confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1340064729' post='2446049'] No. He would be ordering you to break the seal of confession. [/quote] Huh. Interesting. For the record, I'm not planning on murdering my sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340067014' post='2446070'] Huh. Interesting. For the record, I'm not planning on murdering my sister. [/quote] Hmm...good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1340064729' post='2446049'] No. He would be ordering you to break the seal of confession. [/quote] I think you have that wrong. The seal of confession means priests cannot divulge what THEY hear in confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1340070747' post='2446087'] I think you have that wrong. The seal of confession means priests cannot divulge what THEY hear in confession. [/quote] Nah, I think the difference is that no one can force you to say what you told a priest in confession (including a court of law), but you have the freedom to voluntarily divulge that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1340070747' post='2446087'] I think you have that wrong. The seal of confession means priests cannot divulge what THEY hear in confession. [/quote] The priest also cannot force you to divulge what you confess in confession under pain of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1340070747' post='2446087'] I think you have that wrong. The seal of confession means priests cannot divulge what THEY hear in confession. [/quote] Did you just tell a church scholar they are wrong? [media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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