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Engagement-wedding....does My Friend Have A Point


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#1 hotpink

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:41 PM

Ok. I'm a guy.

Yes I know my name is hot pink and no I'm not gay. It's an inside joke from my freshman year and the last sheets left at the bookstore cause you got to buy these special sheets for the dorm beds but anyway.

I know that we're less emotinal blah de blah de blah.

And this is truly my friend and not me. She's all wigging out and I told her she's nuts which was apparently not the answer she was looking for.

She's someone I became good friends with while researching Catholocism for College years back. She's Catholic and does the whole "no sex before marriage" not living together deal. She's been dating this guy for oh I don't know like a year or more and they've talked about marriage.

He's a normal guy..you know...not jumping into things.

She's "in waiting" for an engagement ring.

But she really seems to hate all the traditional marriage stuff.

-She hates the idea of asking for her father's blessing. She's not that close with her family though they're all "good people" and finds it arcaic and insulting. He said it's a blessing and not permission. She is going to "allow" him to since it means so much to him but to me she's told me just how stupid she thinks it is.
-She loves surprizes but said that engagement shouldn't be a surprize. No decision ever should be. I kinda agree with this. But she's pulling some serious feminatzi croutons.
-She thinks the actual getting of a ring is also arcaic and that if she's going to wear one he should too. She asked for the cheapest ring she saw because she dosn't think highly of the tradition. I think she'll regret this.
-For a Catholic she dosn't seem to really value your whole Mass thing. She thinks its ridiculous to get all dressed up. I thought getting dressed up was manditory but apparently that's for like Baptists and Catholics women can wear pantaloons to church and stuff/
-She dosn't want a reception. She thinks that it's a waste of time to be in front of people even if it's only a few (her boyfriend and her want to keep the guest list to 30...parents, grandparents, sibs only plus a friend or two each). Her boyfriend has some idea but through hints so likely no idea.

She's 25 and I told her maybe if she dosn't like all this stuff she's too immature to get married. Thaaaat didn't go over well.


HEEELPPPP!

Catholics lend me your thoughts.

#2 Luigi

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:05 PM

She sounds incredibly sensible to me.

The vast majority of wedding traditions are completely senseless:

Popping the question - I agree with her. If two people are going to make a major life-changing decision, they should both be in on the discussion. The surprise factor accomplishes nothing.


What's the average cost of a wedding these days - $25,000? I'd support that kind of expense if it guaranteed there'd be no divorce... but of course, it doesn't.


The Engagement Ring - in the old days, guys who were looking for potential mates could look at a woman's finger and figure out (without having to ask any direct questions - God forbid! - whether she was in the market or not. The world has changed a great deal since the old days.

The Wedding Band - The simpler, the better, if you ask me. I've known lots of people who had nothing at all when they got married; they bought the simplest ring they could afford. They've been wearing them for 40, 50, 60 years now - and the bands mean more because they represent a lifetime of commitment rather than an investment.

The Wedding Dress - of all the useless wedding traditions I can think of, this is the most useless. Spend $3000 on a dress that you'll wear once. Perfectly ridiculous. Especially if you're in college, or saving for a down payment on a house, or anticipate having children. Renting the dress is only slightly better. A wedding is a commitment, not a Disney movie nor a photo opportunity (although there will be photos). The wedding ceremony (including Mass, which they will probably have) and the vows are still valid, whether one is wearing a designer gown or something nice from one's own closet.

The Reception - She'll have to have a reception. A wedding is more than a commitment between two people. It's also the blending - or at least the connection - of two families and two sets of friends. The families and friends will want to wish the young couple well. But the reception doesn't have to be a knock-down-drag-out event. Time to socialize, some munchables, some potables - that's all you need.

If your friend doesn't want this sensible young woman, ask him if he'd introduce her to me!

#3 arfink

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:39 PM

As a guy I am fairly sure I won't be given a whole lot of say in such things, but if I get married I'd like to keep things on the cheap.

I also am pretty sure I don't like the idea of waiting to "pop the question," so much as having a continuous discussion while dating. Obviously there would come a point where you just have to make the decision and it should be special, but making it a surprise seems odd to me.

As for rings, I think it would be razzle dazzle to make them. :)

#4 CatherineM

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:41 PM

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I asked for a $30 engagement ring and made our wedding rings. Our first wedding had about two dozen people and our church blessing had about half a dozen people. I always stressed to my clients to spend more time planning for the marriage, and less time planning for the wedding.

#5 Vincent Vega

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:46 PM

Interesting. Might be better for her to ask these sorts of things herself, because - and I mean none of this to come off as inhospitable - it doesn't seem like you're big into the whole religion thing, so some of the subtler nuance of answers you get here may be lost in translation from you to her.

#6 Spem in alium

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:07 AM

Your friend does sound very sensible. Things are expensive these days, so it makes sense not to spend more than she has to. Getting married is such a big deal and so I don't think engagement should ever really be a surprise. Dating leads to marriage, so if a couple is in a serious relationship I think they should definitely be speaking about marriage. What matters most is that the two people are getting married for the right reasons.

Personally I love all the "archaic" stuff like blessings, but I can understand why others wouldn't.

As for rings, I think it would be razzle dazzle to make them. :)


Ditto!

#7 Aloysius

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:51 AM

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I think the surprise of popping the question isn't necessarily all that bad. obviously there should be a continuing discussion over the course of the relationship about the issue, the real decision should actually already be made by the time the question gets popped. ie, you've both discussed it, and both decided you'd be ready, but you're not engaged until you pop the question. in some ways it's a question you should already know the answer to based on your previous discussions, but it also should basically be one last chance to change her mind and opt-out by saying no, so there should still be the nervousness of whether she'll say yes or no.

I think we run the risk of getting too sensible and calculating about things and losing the magic a little bit. I definitely agree about being sensible regarding financials and all that, the cost of weddings these days are ridiculous. not saying you absolutely have to do the surprise proposal thing, but I don't think it needs to be dismissed so much.

#8 Groo the Wanderer

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 03:46 AM

tis stupid to start the rest of your life together $10k-20k in debt from the wedding.

#9 fierce

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:51 AM

Ok. I'm a guy.

Yes I know my name is hot pink and no I'm not gay. It's an inside joke from my freshman year and the last sheets left at the bookstore cause you got to buy these special sheets for the dorm beds but anyway.

I know that we're less emotinal blah de blah de blah.

And this is truly my friend and not me. She's all wigging out and I told her she's nuts which was apparently not the answer she was looking for.

She's someone I became good friends with while researching Catholocism for College years back. She's Catholic and does the whole "no sex before marriage" not living together deal. She's been dating this guy for oh I don't know like a year or more and they've talked about marriage.

He's a normal guy..you know...not jumping into things.

She's "in waiting" for an engagement ring.

But she really seems to hate all the traditional marriage stuff.

-She hates the idea of asking for her father's blessing. She's not that close with her family though they're all "good people" and finds it arcaic and insulting. He said it's a blessing and not permission. She is going to "allow" him to since it means so much to him but to me she's told me just how stupid she thinks it is.

-She loves surprizes but said that engagement shouldn't be a surprize. No decision ever should be. I kinda agree with this. But she's pulling some serious feminatzi croutons.

-She thinks the actual getting of a ring is also arcaic and that if she's going to wear one he should too. She asked for the cheapest ring she saw because she dosn't think highly of the tradition. I think she'll regret this.

-For a Catholic she dosn't seem to really value your whole Mass thing. She thinks its ridiculous to get all dressed up. I thought getting dressed up was manditory but apparently that's for like Baptists and Catholics women can wear pantaloons to church and stuff

-She dosn't want a reception. She thinks that it's a waste of time to be in front of people even if it's only a few (her boyfriend and her want to keep the guest list to 30...parents, grandparents, sibs only plus a friend or two each). Her boyfriend has some idea but through hints so likely no idea.

She's 25 and I told her maybe if she dosn't like all this stuff she's too immature to get married. Thaaaat didn't go over well.


HEEELPPPP!

Catholics lend me your thoughts.

First: It would be okay if you were gay.

Second: Your friend doesn't sound too immature for marriage.

Third: It doesn't sound like any of this is really a huge deal. If I were in your shoes, I would support her.

#10 sixpence

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:12 AM

meh... my impression of this whole thing was kinda negative. If the guy involved wants some things a little more traditional, I don't think she should be freaking out so so much. If she wants to be all "progressive/non-traditional" maybe the guy should actually get some say in the wedding. (that's totally non-traditional!!!!) If its the mom or someone else who wants all this stuff then that's a different matter.

While I don't think you need to spend a pile of money on a wedding dress, it is a one time sacrament kind of deal, and I think you should dress at least as nice as if you were going to a formal dinner or something like that unless you absolutely can't afford it. And I think it is important to have a reception. The families (hopefully) won't be chatting it up during the service so they need some time to celebrate and talk etc!!

Edited by sixpence, 06 August 2012 - 11:13 AM.


#11 elizabeth09

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:48 AM

Sound like your friend does not want to start her married life in debt, which is a good thing.

#12 Ice_nine

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:02 PM

your friend is amesome

#13 FutureCarmeliteClaire

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

I will answer a few of these from my point of view as a young woman.

Wedding dress - Spending like $3,000+ dollars on a dress is ridiculous, even $2,000 or $1,500. You don't have to get your dress from Kleinfeld or Bridal by Lori. You can get a beautiful dress for $150 or $200 and I've always thought that wearing a family heirloom wedding dress was a really razzle dazzle idea. So some could even have NO price! :)

Surprise Engagement - There should definitely be a mutual discussion and decision on getting married. But I think it's really razzle dazzle if the bride doesn't know WHEN he'll pop the question, and I think it's special that way. But there should definitely be talk of marriage before the proposal. So, not a surprise exactly, but at least for it to be special in that way.

Reception - She'll have to have a reception. It doesn't have to be big an extravagant or take away from the ceremony or anything, but it's expected.

Father's permission - I know it's different with other people's families and situations. But in my case, my dad would approve of the guy before I even DATED him, meaning that he would approve him as a candidate for marriage, and I think I would like it if he asked my dad if he could marry me. I think it's sweet. But any guy I would date would have to be okay with my dad anyway.

The Ring - I HAVE NO CLUE. :) I don't really have an opinion other than that I think that I would like it if both me and my future husband wore wedding rings. I don't think the groom has to have an engagement ring though, it sounds kind of strange. Oh, and they don't have to be expensive! Again, you can get engagement rings/ wedding rings on the cheap. My mom had a set. Her wedding ring was a band that connected to her engagement ring. Now she has an anniversary band that my dad got her on their 10 year anniversary, I think. I, personally, would like to be surprised with the engagement ring, don't care how expensive it is. Okay, so I guess I did have an opinion. ;)

Prayers for this young couple.

#14 Lil Red

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:59 PM

re: the Mass

you can have a ceremony without the Mass (that's what my husband & I did). but if both are Catholic, why not have the ceremony within Mass? It's very moving & beautiful within Mass.

#15 brianthephysicist

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

Nuthin wrong with guys that like pink.

#16 Basilisa Marie

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:22 PM

-She hates the idea of asking for her father's blessing. She's not that close with her family though they're all "good people" and finds it arcaic and insulting. He said it's a blessing and not permission. She is going to "allow" him to since it means so much to him but to me she's told me just how stupid she thinks it is.


While there's nothing wrong with a father's blessing, I can see why she has a problem. She doesn't see it as primarily a blessing, but permission. I think she's done the right thing by letting her boyfriend ask her father since it means so much to him, even if she thinks it's stupid. I like to think of asking for a "father's blessing" is more like letting the family know you're thinking of asking their daughter to marry you, for their support and possible help with everything.


-She loves surprizes but said that engagement shouldn't be a surprize. No decision ever should be. I kinda agree with this. But she's pulling some serious feminatzi croutons.


Engagement should be a mutual decision that's talked about a lot. The actual asking, however, can be a surprise. She's smart to know that it should be discussed long before the asking.

-She thinks the actual getting of a ring is also arcaic and that if she's going to wear one he should too. She asked for the cheapest ring she saw because she dosn't think highly of the tradition. I think she'll regret this.


A ring was originally used as a kind of insurance policy, in case something happened to the fiance. That way a bride could have something to sell so she wouldn't be completely destitute. Other times it was a compensation because it was harder for women who were previously engaged to find a husband if something happened to the fiance. Nowadays the engagement ring is a status symbol. The bigger the ring, the bigger your husband's paycheck and the better job you did in finding a husband. If the ring truly is meant to be a symbol of their love and commitment, there's nothing wrong with asking her fiance to also wear a ring, and there's nothing wrong with getting an inexpensive one.

-For a Catholic she dosn't seem to really value your whole Mass thing. She thinks its ridiculous to get all dressed up. I thought getting dressed up was manditory but apparently that's for like Baptists and Catholics women can wear pantaloons to church and stuff


For Catholic women, you can be "dressed up" and wear nice pantaloons. It's important to look presentable because it reflects the importance of the occasion. You do your best within your budget. Not having a fancy dress (or a dress at all) doesn't mean she doesn't value the Mass. Spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dress you only wear once is very, very impractical, especially for someone who seems to be very concerned about finances.

-She dosn't want a reception. She thinks that it's a waste of time to be in front of people even if it's only a few (her boyfriend and her want to keep the guest list to 30...parents, grandparents, sibs only plus a friend or two each). Her boyfriend has some idea but through hints so likely no idea.


You don't have to have a giant reception. Again, it sounds like your friend is concerned about spending lots of money frivolously. Some people feel it's important to put lots of money into their special day. Others, the "trappings" of a wedding aren't nearly as important as what it is - the day you vow before God and the community to spend the rest of your life united with your spouse. The marriage is what's important, not the wedding.

Honestly, it sounds like she knows what's really important. There's nothing wrong with all these wedding traditions, but they aren't necessary. If her boyfriend wants some of the things she doesn't, they should talk about it. But it already sounds like they do, as she's already relented about the "Father's Blessing" thing because she knows how important it is to him. If she's happy, and her boyfriend's happy, well...there's nothing for you to do about it.

#17 Archaeology cat

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:28 PM

I was never given an engagement ring, by my choice. I don't wear much jewelry and in fact am allergic to gold. My husband did surprise me with a very pretty ring prior to our wedding, but it was after we were already engaged.

#18 hotpink

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:29 PM

Holy moley all! Thank you for the many responses. My friend is pretty razzle dazzle...even if she's an emotinal creature.

As a guy I am fairly sure I won't be given a whole lot of say in such things, but if I get married I'd like to keep things on the cheap.

I also am pretty sure I don't like the idea of waiting to "pop the question," so much as having a continuous discussion while dating. Obviously there would come a point where you just have to make the decision and it should be special, but making it a surprise seems odd to me.

As for rings, I think it would be razzle dazzle to make them. :)


Yeah, they've discussed it alot...even a date of getting married but he wants to have the giving of the ring be a surprize and she's not happy about that at all.

I asked for a $30 engagement ring and made our wedding rings. Our first wedding had about two dozen people and our church blessing had about half a dozen people. I always stressed to my clients to spend more time planning for the marriage, and less time planning for the wedding.


They'ved talked alot about marriage...he's from a wealthy family so the ring is going to be $600 becuase he wants it to be a real diamond. Thats the cheapest he's willing to go for her.

Interesting. Might be better for her to ask these sorts of things herself, because - and I mean none of this to come off as inhospitable - it doesn't seem like you're big into the whole religion thing, so some of the subtler nuance of answers you get here may be lost in translation from you to her.


I've never been any religion but I like you guys...and I wouldn't just say that. I actually want to know just as much for me as for her becuase I find the whole thing rather facinating. Like watching Canadians make fries. You know the kind where they put coagulated milk and gravey on them?

Your friend does sound very sensible. Things are expensive these days, so it makes sense not to spend more than she has to. Getting married is such a big deal and so I don't think engagement should ever really be a surprise. Dating leads to marriage, so if a couple is in a serious relationship I think they should definitely be speaking about marriage. What matters most is that the two people are getting married for the right reasons.

Personally I love all the "archaic" stuff like blessings, but I can understand why others wouldn't.


She (and he) seem to have discussed more than I ever thought of. I was thinking it was typical of Catholics to talk about all that stuff. I tend to pry becuase I'm so curious about how Catholics are different. Though another Catholic I know who also goes to church likes all the tradition stuff...but he's a guy so I'm now wondering if I become Catholic if I have to like all the tradition stuff or if I can just do the modern stuff and those masses with music that's normal and not old fashioned.


I think the surprise of popping the question isn't necessarily all that bad. obviously there should be a continuing discussion over the course of the relationship about the issue, the real decision should actually already be made by the time the question gets popped. ie, you've both discussed it, and both decided you'd be ready, but you're not engaged until you pop the question. in some ways it's a question you should already know the answer to based on your previous discussions, but it also should basically be one last chance to change her mind and opt-out by saying no, so there should still be the nervousness of whether she'll say yes or no.

I think we run the risk of getting too sensible and calculating about things and losing the magic a little bit. I definitely agree about being sensible regarding financials and all that, the cost of weddings these days are ridiculous. not saying you absolutely have to do the surprise proposal thing, but I don't think it needs to be dismissed so much.



Again, I'm trying to sort out the Catholic bit, not that I'm an expert on weddings.

tis stupid to start the rest of your life together $10k-20k in debt from the wedding.

Yeah. They do plan on keeping it simple. But she dosn't want to be the center of attention...weither it be a thousand dollar affiar or a backyard bbq. She has all sorts of opinions about that...but I think she's whisling into the wind or whatever the polite version of that would be.

First: It would be okay if you were gay.

Second: Your friend doesn't sound too immature for marriage.

Third: It doesn't sound like any of this is really a huge deal. If I were in your shoes, I would support her.



Thanks on all accounts. I do find it emotinal but maybe it isn't that immature.

Edited by hotpink, 06 August 2012 - 08:32 PM.


#19 hotpink

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 08:34 PM

meh... my impression of this whole thing was kinda negative. If the guy involved wants some things a little more traditional, I don't think she should be freaking out so so much. If she wants to be all "progressive/non-traditional" maybe the guy should actually get some say in the wedding. (that's totally non-traditional!!!!) If its the mom or someone else who wants all this stuff then that's a different matter.

While I don't think you need to spend a pile of money on a wedding dress, it is a one time sacrament kind of deal, and I think you should dress at least as nice as if you were going to a formal dinner or something like that unless you absolutely can't afford it. And I think it is important to have a reception. The families (hopefully) won't be chatting it up during the service so they need some time to celebrate and talk etc!!


He's actually picking the flowers and the music (for both the ceremony and reception) he also narrowed down what he dosn't want in the readings. So he has alot of the input.

I will answer a few of these from my point of view as a young woman.

Wedding dress - Spending like $3,000+ dollars on a dress is ridiculous, even $2,000 or $1,500. You don't have to get your dress from Kleinfeld or Bridal by Lori. You can get a beautiful dress for $150 or $200 and I've always thought that wearing a family heirloom wedding dress was a really razzle dazzle idea. So some could even have NO price! :)

Surprise Engagement - There should definitely be a mutual discussion and decision on getting married. But I think it's really razzle dazzle if the bride doesn't know WHEN he'll pop the question, and I think it's special that way. But there should definitely be talk of marriage before the proposal. So, not a surprise exactly, but at least for it to be special in that way.

Reception - She'll have to have a reception. It doesn't have to be big an extravagant or take away from the ceremony or anything, but it's expected.

Father's permission - I know it's different with other people's families and situations. But in my case, my dad would approve of the guy before I even DATED him, meaning that he would approve him as a candidate for marriage, and I think I would like it if he asked my dad if he could marry me. I think it's sweet. But any guy I would date would have to be okay with my dad anyway.

The Ring - I HAVE NO CLUE. :) I don't really have an opinion other than that I think that I would like it if both me and my future husband wore wedding rings. I don't think the groom has to have an engagement ring though, it sounds kind of strange. Oh, and they don't have to be expensive! Again, you can get engagement rings/ wedding rings on the cheap. My mom had a set. Her wedding ring was a band that connected to her engagement ring. Now she has an anniversary band that my dad got her on their 10 year anniversary, I think. I, personally, would like to be surprised with the engagement ring, don't care how expensive it is. Okay, so I guess I did have an opinion. ;)

Prayers for this young couple.


Thanks I'll let her know you're praying. She likes that kinda stuff. She's a bit of a tom boy so she dosn't spend money on clothes. Loves Savers and Salvation Army.


While there's nothing wrong with a father's blessing, I can see why she has a problem. She doesn't see it as primarily a blessing, but permission. I think she's done the right thing by letting her boyfriend ask her father since it means so much to him, even if she thinks it's stupid. I like to think of asking for a "father's blessing" is more like letting the family know you're thinking of asking their daughter to marry you, for their support and possible help with everything.




Engagement should be a mutual decision that's talked about a lot. The actual asking, however, can be a surprise. She's smart to know that it should be discussed long before the asking.



A ring was originally used as a kind of insurance policy, in case something happened to the fiance. That way a bride could have something to sell so she wouldn't be completely destitute. Other times it was a compensation because it was harder for women who were previously engaged to find a husband if something happened to the fiance. Nowadays the engagement ring is a status symbol. The bigger the ring, the bigger your husband's paycheck and the better job you did in finding a husband. If the ring truly is meant to be a symbol of their love and commitment, there's nothing wrong with asking her fiance to also wear a ring, and there's nothing wrong with getting an inexpensive one.



For Catholic women, you can be "dressed up" and wear nice pantaloons. It's important to look presentable because it reflects the importance of the occasion. You do your best within your budget. Not having a fancy dress (or a dress at all) doesn't mean she doesn't value the Mass. Spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dress you only wear once is very, very impractical, especially for someone who seems to be very concerned about finances.



You don't have to have a giant reception. Again, it sounds like your friend is concerned about spending lots of money frivolously. Some people feel it's important to put lots of money into their special day. Others, the "trappings" of a wedding aren't nearly as important as what it is - the day you vow before God and the community to spend the rest of your life united with your spouse. The marriage is what's important, not the wedding.

Honestly, it sounds like she knows what's really important. There's nothing wrong with all these wedding traditions, but they aren't necessary. If her boyfriend wants some of the things she doesn't, they should talk about it. But it already sounds like they do, as she's already relented about the "Father's Blessing" thing because she knows how important it is to him. If she's happy, and her boyfriend's happy, well...there's nothing for you to do about it.


Got you on the wedding stuff. She does talk to her boyfriend but she relents (and then whines about it to me) becuase she loves him. But part of me thinks she really just hates traditional...anything. From how she raisies her dog to using linux insted of windows to bucking the TV and well...just everything. Her only commitment besides her boyfriend is work. She goes to Mass sometimes daily at one of two dozen different parishes (some an hour away from where she lives). From my research Catholis are supposed to stick to one parish. All the priests like her apparently, so I guess she can get married.

What women who's not a lesbian wears pantaloons to her wedding though? Not to be mean. I just can't see it even in the regular world outside of Catholics.


I was never given an engagement ring, by my choice. I don't wear much jewelry and in fact am allergic to gold. My husband did surprise me with a very pretty ring prior to our wedding, but it was after we were already engaged.


Sweet!

#20 MissyP89

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 09:44 PM

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You don't necessarily have to like "traditional stuff" to be Catholic. There are a LOT of different opinions here, and most of us are 100% faithful to the Catholic Church. That's kind of why I like this faith so much ... there's room for everyone.

We're different because of the way we choose to love ourselves and love other people -- we're trying to love like Jesus loves us. We're not perfect at it and all of us fail, but that unconditional love is what I think sets us apart. It makes us into better people and it gives joy to people that really need it.




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