31 replies to this topic

[Hasan]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

[Era Might]

Fascism is nationalistic and conservative/traditional (or at least it uses the facade of traditional society to unite everyone). Capitalism is individualistic and will sacrifice anything in the interests of capital...traditional society cannot survive capitalism.

[Winchester]

If your business model is suicidal, you will sacrifice anything in the name of capital goods. This would result in the destruction of capital goods.

Bastiat's essay on protectionism does a very good job dealing with this.

Edited by Winchester, 18 August 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Papist]

So Bill Gates is a fascist?

[Winchester]

So Bill Gates is a fascist?

Does Bill Gates believe in public/private partnership?

Does he support private ownership of capital, with heavy regulation by government?

Did he support any of the bailouts? Does he support the Federal Reserve? The New Deal?


He probably is. Damned near every American is.

[Era Might]

Does Bill Gates believe in public/private partnership?

Does he support private ownership of capital, with heavy regulation by government?

Did he support any of the bailouts? Does he support the Federal Reserve? The New Deal?


He probably is. Damned near every American is.

You're defining the New Deal as fascism?

[Winchester]

You're defining the New Deal as fascism?

Mussolini sure regarded it highly.

I'm not alone.

Price-fixing, destruction of private property to ensure scarcity (method of attempted price-fixing), confiscation of gold, nationalisation of the money supply...yeah. Fascism. floopy FDR.

[Era Might]

Mussolini sure regarded it highly.

I'm not alone.

Price-fixing, destruction of private property to ensure scarcity (method of attempted price-fixing), confiscation of gold, nationalisation of the money supply...yeah. Fascism. floopy FDR.

Mussolini was an opportunist. He would have liked anything that helped his political aims, and politics can make strange bedfellows. He was a modern politician, he had to make sure the people had jobs and bread as much as any American politician had to.

Fascism is concentrated in one leader, one people, one ideology. That hardly characterizes America, and a LOT would have to change for such a situation to occur in America.

Edited by Era Might, 18 August 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Hasan]

Price-fixing, destruction of private property to ensure scarcity (method of attempted price-fixing), confiscation of gold, nationalisation of the money supply...yeah. Fascism. floopy FDR.

None of these things has anything to do with fascism.

[Hasan]

Mussolini was an opportunist. He would have liked anything that helped his political aims, and politics can make strange bedfellows. He was a modern politician, he had to make sure the people had jobs and bread as much as any American politician had to.

Fascism is concentrated in one leader, one people, one ideology. That hardly characterizes America, and a LOT would have to change for such a situation to occur in America.

Although a lot of fascists were monarchists, at least the original ones tended to be, I'm not sure that a fascist state would have to have one leader. Obviously that is a tendency of fascism because of its authoritarian components but I don't think it's a defining component.

[Era Might]

Although a lot of fascists were monarchists, at least the original ones tended to be, I'm not sure that a fascist state would have to have one leader. Obviously that is a tendency of fascism because of its authoritarian components but I don't think it's a defining component.

I guess Mussolini's Italy was technically a monarchy, but I can't imagine a fascist state surviving long without an iron leader (not a mere figurehead monarch). Has there ever been a democratic fascist state (actually democratic, not nominally)?

[Hasan]

I guess Mussolini's Italy was technically a monarchy, but I can't imagine a fascist state surviving long without an iron leader (not a mere figurehead monarch). Has there ever been a democratic fascist state (actually democratic, not nominally)?

Well, I certainly would agree with you that a fascist state could not be democratic. At least not a liberal democracy. And I don't know that I'm even disagreeing with you that there needs to be one leader to act as at least the figurehead of the regime. But I mean I could imagine a fascist state where you had some sort of council, like a junta or something, where you have an authoritarian regime but the power vested in a body rather than an individual.

[Era Might]

Well, I certainly would agree with you that a fascist state could not be democratic. At least not a liberal democracy. And I don't know that I'm even disagreeing with you that there needs to be one leader to act as at least the figurehead of the regime. But I mean I could imagine a fascist state where you had some sort of council, like a junta or something, where you have an authoritarian regime but the power vested in a body rather than an individual.

I think a military dictatorship could definitely "mind the ship," but I think for the ideological thrust of fascism to work there has to be not merely a vague "authority," but it has to be personified in one messianic individual.

Edited by Era Might, 18 August 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Hasan]

I think a military dictatorship could definitely "mind the ship," but I think for the ideological thrust of fascism to work there has to be not merely a vague "authority," but it has to be personified in one messianic individual.

Well, I disagree but I'm not terribly confident in that disagreement. I'm just inclined to think that it is possible to not invest all legitimacy in one leader and still form a fascist state but it's not something I've put a lot of thought into and fell ready to argue.

[Era Might]

Well, I disagree but I'm not terribly confident in that disagreement. I'm just inclined to think that it is possible to not invest all legitimacy in one leader and still form a fascist state but it's not something I've put a lot of thought into and fell ready to argue.

Well most of my familiarity is with Nazi Germany (and, tangentially, Fascist Italy). Latin America would probably be the best case study for what you're talking about, but I'm not familiar enough with that to speak on it.

[Hasan]

This thread took a surprisingly substantive turn. I was not expecting this since I did not foresee this thread being taken seriously. I don't think the Marxist claim that fascism is the logical outcome of capitalism is correct. I was just after the lols.

[Hasan]

Well most of my familiarity is with Nazi Germany (and, tangentially, Fascist Italy). Latin America would probably be the best case study for what you're talking about, but I'm not familiar enough with that to speak on it.

That's what I was thinking. And maybe Serbia. I also don't think that Carl Schmitt would say that you need one leader. But I think I agree that practically speaking, it would be exceedingly difficult to have a fascist state that didn't at least nominally invest authority in the leadership of one man.

[Era Might]

I don't think the Marxist claim that fascism is the logical outcome of capitalism is correct. I was just after the lols.

Is that Marxist or Bolshevik? As I understand it capitalism was considered a necessary stage before Socialism, but the Bolsheviks didn't want to wait.

Edited by Era Might, 18 August 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[Papist]

Does Bill Gates believe in public/private partnership?

Does he support private ownership of capital, with heavy regulation by government?

Did he support any of the bailouts? Does he support the Federal Reserve? The New Deal?


He probably is. Damned near every American is.

For one who has all the answers, you ask a lot of questions.

[Winchester]

None of these things has anything to do with fascism.

Fascist regimes don't pursue price controls? They don't nationalize currencies or seek to control currencies? Confiscation of gold in order to maintain the illusion of property whilst gaining massive amounts of power for the government is a great maneuver for fascists.

Certainly, it's not unique to completely fascist political groups, but "nothing" to do with fascism? Really?

For one who has all the answers, you ask a lot of questions.

your face asks a lot of questions