43 replies to this topic

[Hasan]

OF ALL the organisations that serve America’s poor, few do more good work than the Catholic church: its schools and hospitals provide a lifeline for millions. Yet even taking these virtues into account, the finances of the Catholic church in America are an unholy mess. The sins involved in its book-keeping are not as vivid or grotesque as those on display in the various sexual-abuse cases that have cost the American church more than $3 billion so far; but the financial mismanagement and questionable business practices would have seen widespread resignations at the top of any other public institution.

The sexual-abuse scandals of the past 20 years have brought shame to the church around the world. In America they have also brought financial strains. By studying court documents in bankruptcy cases, examining public records, requesting documents from local, state and federal governments, as well as talking to priests and bishops confidentially, The Economist has sought to quantify the damage.

The picture that emerges is not flattering. The church’s finances look poorly co-ordinated considering (or perhaps because of) their complexity. The management of money is often sloppy. And some parts of the church have indulged in ungainly financial contortions in some cases—it is alleged—both to divert funds away from uses intended by donors and to frustrate creditors with legitimate claims, including its own nuns and priests. The dioceses that have filed for bankruptcy may not be typical of the church as a whole. But given the overall lack of openness there is no way of knowing to what extent they are outliers.

Read More:
http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

Edited by Hasan, 20 August 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[Basilisa Marie]

given the overall lack of openness

This seems to be key.

Overall I find the article fascinating.

Edit: As well as the comment section.

It is openness and the Rule of Law, not churchly sanctimony, that may yet restore faith in the Catholic Church.

Edited by Basilisa Marie, 20 August 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Lil Red]

even within my diocese, so many parishes are in very bad financial shape because of mismanagement by priests. of course, many of those are not on purpose, it's just that they don't have a financial background and don't know how to manage larger amounts of money. then there are the priests who do mismanage the funds on purpose, to cover drinking or gambling problems (the most common, at least here it seems).

[Lil Red]

we have one priest (i think his undergrad is finances) who seems like all he does is go from parish to parish, cleaning up finances and starting capital campaigns to fix parishes/parish schools. he's been a busy guy for pretty much his entire priesthood. edit: consequently, he's really burnt out and tired already. please pray for him.

Edited by Lil Red, 20 August 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[Lisa]

It seems like something that should be covered more in seminary; the priests coming could easily be put into pastor positions in a year or so as more are retiring. That's not really enough time to "learn on the job." I wonder if NOLA Seminarian (if he sees this) could tell us if there's any preparation for financial stuff.

[mortify]

It's not the Parish per se but all these other beuracracies in the Church that cost a lot of money. You know, the secretary working for the Bishop that gets paid $100 thousand dollars a year, where do you think that money comes from? The solution is to liquidate these useless organizations, many of them run by dimwit liberals.

[Anomaly]

I think it's a Bishop/Diocese thing. I've been in a couple of parishes that have been ravaged by financial mismanagement as well as well managed. If the Bishop doesn't require parishioner involvement, reporting, and openness, it isn't going to happen. The local parish where my family has been involved for almost 50 years has seen a number of Pastors and significant growth. Luckily, during the early growth years, they had pastors that were there for a long time and were good with finances, though there were controversies at times. About 20 years ago, they made sure there was significant involvement by a Parish Finance Committee that was either required or encuraged by the Bishop. They have a multi-million yearly budget for the school and parish and there is little chance of malfeasance or embezzlement.

[Basilisa Marie]

It's not the Parish per se but all these other beuracracies in the Church that cost a lot of money. You know, the secretary working for the Bishop that gets paid $100 thousand dollars a year, where do you think that money comes from? The solution is to liquidate these useless organizations, many of them run by dimwit liberals.

I suggest actually reading the article. The actual facts and figures the Economist brings up lead one to a different conclusion.

[arfink]

I can say that they have been struggling to get priests trained in financial matters in the seminaries for years, but the problem is that finances are not necessarily something every priest will be able to do. It's not for everyone. In small dioceses with no resources this compounds the problem.

Despite all this, finances cannot be the primary focus of a pastor. His work is sabotaged when that's all he deals with.

[franciscanheart]

It's not the Parish per se but all these other beuracracies in the Church that cost a lot of money. You know, the secretary working for the Bishop that gets paid $100 thousand dollars a year, where do you think that money comes from? The solution is to liquidate these useless organizations, many of them run by dimwit liberals.

What a charitable post.

[Anomaly]

I suggest actually reading the article. The actual facts and figures the Economist brings up lead one to a different conclusion.

I read the COMPLETE article. My bad.

It's not about parishes mishandling money, it's on the national Church and large Diocese level that money is being poorly or incompetently handled. The article doesn't accuse it's neccesarily intentional, but there are problems with diocese and parishes being bankrupt and reitrements funds for religious being emptied. The article is about the 'different' accounting methods and procedures used by the Church that is sometimes excerbating problems, creating problems, and possibly being manipulated or taken advantage of to hide funds from sex-abuse settlement or payments for settlements causing more problems than they should.

[Basilisa Marie]

I read the COMPLETE article. My bad.

It's not about parishes mishandling money, it's on the national Church and large Diocese level that money is being poorly or incompetently handled. The article doesn't accuse it's neccesarily intentional, but there are problems with diocese and parishes being bankrupt and reitrements funds for religious being emptied. The article is about the 'different' accounting methods and procedures used by the Church that is sometimes excerbating problems, creating problems, and possibly being manipulated or taken advantage of to hide funds from sex-abuse settlement or payments for settlements causing more problems than they should.

um...I was talking to mortify. Not sure why you quoted me...especially because I "propped" your post....

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm really not surprised that the financial management in the Church is below par. Bishops and priests are trained in theology and philosophy, not finance and accounting. Why should we expect them to be competent in subjects in which they have no special training, and certainly no charism? I'm sure that in some cases there is dishonest stuff flying under the radar, but I bet that in most cases it's simply that we have a bunch of people with no business acumen running what is, for the purposes of this subject, a very large very complex business. Frankly, it's impressive that every single diocese in the US isn't bankrupt.
Heck, maybe when I'm done my commerce degree a diocese somewhere will want to hire me to manage the business end of things. ^_^ That would be kewl.

[arfink]

I'm really not surprised that the financial management in the Church is below par. Bishops and priests are trained in theology and philosophy, not finance and accounting. Why should we expect them to be competent in subjects in which they have no special training, and certainly no charism? I'm sure that in some cases there is dishonest stuff flying under the radar, but I bet that in most cases it's simply that we have a bunch of people with no business acumen running what is, for the purposes of this subject, a very large very complex business. Frankly, it's impressive that every single diocese in the US isn't bankrupt.
Heck, maybe when I'm done my commerce degree a diocese somewhere will want to hire me to manage the business end of things. ^_^ That would be kewl.

It would be super kewl.

Edited by arfink, 20 August 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[Brother Adam]

I'm really not surprised that the financial management in the Church is below par. Bishops and priests are trained in theology and philosophy, not finance and accounting. Why should we expect them to be competent in subjects in which they have no special training, and certainly no charism? I'm sure that in some cases there is dishonest stuff flying under the radar, but I bet that in most cases it's simply that we have a bunch of people with no business acumen running what is, for the purposes of this subject, a very large very complex business. Frankly, it's impressive that every single diocese in the US isn't bankrupt.
Heck, maybe when I'm done my commerce degree a diocese somewhere will want to hire me to manage the business end of things. ^_^ That would be kewl.

Every parish has a finance council, usually populated by people who own their own businesses or work in finance for huge corporations. Every diocese also has professional financial and human resource staff working for them. While the buck stops with the clergy, if they are smart, they will listen to their advisers. I have seen what happens when they don't.

[Nihil Obstat]

Every parish has a finance council, usually populated by people who own their own businesses or work in finance for huge corporations. Every diocese also has professional financial and human resource staff working for them. While the buck stops with the clergy, if they are smart, they will listen to their advisers. I have seen what happens when they don't.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Apparently we need a better system.

[Nihil Obstat]

Related question: Are individual churches treated, from an accounting/tax/legal standpoint as distinct entities, or are they treated more like various departments under a single corporation: the diocese?

Edited by Nihil Obstat, 20 August 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Brother Adam]

The danger is, actually, that they are set up as a corporation sole owned by the bishop. That is why he can freely come in, close a church, and sell its assets.

[Brother Adam]

It is openness and the Rule of Law, not churchly sanctimony, that may yet restore faith in the Catholic Church.

That is what got it into trouble in the first place in the 70s and 80s. The Church followed the pop psychology and what everyone thought was right then. The charter for protecting God's children is light years beyond any other private or public institution. Holiness is exactly what will restore faith in the Catholic Church.

[Nihil Obstat]

The danger is, actually, that they are set up as a corporation sole owned by the bishop. That is why he can freely come in, close a church, and sell its assets.

Interesting. So what do you think; would we have better success if individual parishes were, for accounting and financial purposes more autonomous? Or would that just make things worse?
Honestly, I'm thinking that would be worse still. We'd get far more situations of 'rogue parishes', and the diocese would be less able to respond appropriately.

Holiness is exactly what will restore faith in the Catholic Church.

And since the law of prayer is the law of belief, save the liturgy, save the Church, save the world.