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Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

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reyb    30
reyb
[b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/user/346-thedude/"]thedude[/url] asked in CatholicQ&A (see topic Why Did Christ Die?) the following:[/b]

Quick question that is bothering me and I can't seem to find any resources. Why did Christ have to die? Couldn't God have forgiven sins without this?

And this what he got from Catholic Scholars:
[quote]
thedude,

Christians have puzzled over this question for 2000 years. But in your question you get right to the heart of it. Yes, it's true that we cannot say that the crucifixion of Jesus is absolutely necessary. To say that is to say God's power is limited. God could easily have forgiven us and redeemed us by merely saying the word. The Son did not have to become a man, strictly speaking.

But given that the Son did become a baby, and that God did die on the cross for us, what can we say?

St Anselm came up with a beautiful idea of atonement. In the sin of Adam and Eve, offence had been given to God by humans. Only God can sufficiently 'make up' for this offence, but because man caused this offence, man must be the one to do it. The solution: God becomes man---Jesus. And Jesus, as God can atone for this sin, and Jesus, as man, does it on behalf of all humanity.

I think what we cannot say is that God demanded the death of Jesus. In the Old Testament God is already depicted as hating animal sacrifices and offerings. Would a human sacrifice make God happy? No. The Scriptures tell us how much He loves us, and does not desire the death and ruin of the guilty--let alone the innocent.

Regarding all the above, St Thomas Aquinas tells us that we cannot say God is forced or compelled or necessitated to suffer and die on the Cross. But we can say that it is "fitting" (conveniens). That word "conveniens" can sometimes be translated as "beautiful"---it is God showing us something beautiful, showing us His love.

Jesus comes to show us all how to be human. To love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, to do good to those who hurt us. This is a genuine human life, not like the artificial human life we experience with sin, death, misery and cruelty. Jesus comes not only to show us how to be human, how to be sons and daughters of God, but He also gives us His Spirit in order to truly be God's children (we live by grace, not our own efforts). I think the cost of being God's child is that you get crucified by the world. What Jesus asks of us is that we pick up our crosses and follow Him. Ultimately, to live like Jesus means you have to die to yourself, and the world (meaning all the things opposed to God, not the physical world itself) will seek to crucify you also.

The power of God confounds those who think the crucifixion is the end of the story. The Resurrection is not like a happy ending tagged on to a tale of tears, but it is the beginning of a whole new life, the life of the blessed in glory, in the vision of the Most Holy Trinity, transformed into the image of the First-Born Only-Begotten, by the Holy Spirit, reposing in the bosom of the Father, eternally in bliss.

There are many other ways of looking at the Cross, but I think this way gets to the heart of it. God be with you.
[/quote]
----------------------
To Catholic Scholars,

You are puzzled for 2000 years and then you call Jesus’ death an ‘incomplete suffering’? You do not know how God forgive sin, and that is only through his death, and then you claim into yourself ‘sharer in the anointing of the Spirit with which he (Jesus) himself is anointed’ and ‘ministers in the society of the faithful able by the sacred power of orders to offer sacrifice and to forgive sins.? (see your Presbyterorum Ordinis).

You called yourself ‘co-saviour of Jesus, sharer in his suffering, sharer in his Spirit, sharer in his ministry, and many, many, many other ‘power sharing complement’ but you do not know why the death of Jesus is necessary to forgive sin?

I really fear for you because the Wrath of God is already prepared for you. When you closed your eyes, it will be the end and the beginning and it will be forever. You will get what you deserved because God's name is blasphemed among the unbelievers because of you. Edited by reyb

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reyb    30
reyb
You bring billions of souls to eternal punishment because of your traditions and pride. You can see for yourself what kind of spirit is guiding you. You are saying, you have the spirit of Christ. But why then you cannot explain the reason of Jesus' death? Why did Jesus have to die? Edited by reyb

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Winchester    6,866
Winchester
[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1348965538' post='2488234']
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ag8cy9r2XdE/Sc4Sv6DdZvI/AAAAAAAADmA/iTN4ZRcniGc/s400/lget5010%2Bhomer-simpson-stupid-like-a-fox-the-simpsons-poster-card.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

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Selah    1,348
Selah
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lPkiK1qMlWU/T2ZQBQr7PrI/AAAAAAAABA0/xRHWAGbpKm8/s400/GoodHeavensJustLookAtTheTimeDerpy.jpg.png[/img]

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Winchester    6,866
Winchester
[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1348965985' post='2488238']
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lPkiK1qMlWU/T2ZQBQr7PrI/AAAAAAAABA0/xRHWAGbpKm8/s400/GoodHeavensJustLookAtTheTimeDerpy.jpg.png[/img]
[/quote]
I bet the really good version of oh my look at the time would result in a banhammer.

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Selah    1,348
Selah
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348966184' post='2488241']
[img]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/blasphemy.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


I think irony just died.

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BarbaraTherese    1,912
BarbaraTherese
To my mind, Jesus was subject to cause and effect just as we are. In this subjection, Jesus is fully human and His Sufferings and Death underscore that He was indeed fully human in every way, just as we are. There is a cause that brings about a certain result. The authorities in the time of Jesus chose an evil and this evil was to crucify Jesus. In subjection and obedience to the Permissive Will of God (or the evil that God has permitted) and cause and effect in His own human life, Jesus is crucified. Jesus accepts a situation that as fully human, He cannot change. We know that in the Garden of Gethsamane, Jesus is aware of His impending sufferings and asks His Father "if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me, but not My Will, but Thine be done". The greatest evil to exist (crucifixion of Jesus) brings about a greater good, the forgiveness of sin and the salvation of mankind.

As for Jesus, so for us. Suffering is a mystery and God is Mystery and so the reason that God does not spare Jesus His Sufferings and Death is in the Mystery of God. The sufferings of Jesus can tell us many things, including that God can intervene in human life (or Jesus would not have asked Him to do so in His own life and coming death). His sufferings tell us that Jesus was indeed fully human in every way like us, except sin. His sufferings tell us of His Trust in God - Jesus undergoes His sufferings meekly and humbly because He trusts that a greater good will come out of them and that His Father has His Reasons and this is a lesson for us in our own life. Endless is the Treasury of The Sufferings and Death of Jesus.

Permissive Will of God, Catholic Catechism :
[b]324 [/b]The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that [u][b]God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that [color=#0000ff]we shall fully know only in eternal life[/color][/b][/u][color=#0000ff].[/color] Edited by BarbaraTherese

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Winchester    6,866
Winchester
[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1348966582' post='2488246']
To my mind, Jesus was subject to cause and effect just as we are. In this subjection, Jesus is fully human and His Sufferings and Death underscore that He was indeed fully human in every way, just as we are. There is a cause that brings about a certain result. The authorities in the time of Jesus chose an evil and this evil was to crucify Jesus. In subjection and obedience to the Permissive Will of God as cause and effect in His own human life, Jesus is crucified. Jesus accepts a situation that as fully human, He cannot change. We know that in the Garden of Gethsamane, Jesus is aware of His impending sufferings and asks His Father "if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me, but not My Will, but Thine be done". The greatest evil to exist (crucifixion of Jesus) brings about a greater good, the forgiveness of sin and the salvation of mankind.

As for Jesus, so for us. Suffering is a mystery and God is Mystery and so the reason that God does not spare Jesus His Sufferings and Death is in the Mystery of God.
Permissive Will of God, Catholic Catechism :
[b]324 [/b]The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that [u][b]God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that [color=#0000ff]we shall fully know only in eternal life[/color][/b][/u][color=#0000ff].[/color]
[/quote]
If you like banging your head against a wall, carry on.

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BarbaraTherese    1,912
BarbaraTherese
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHILDREN.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHILDREN.TXT[/url]
c) If we really love our Father, we will want to see that He gets the
pleasure of giving to all those whom He wants to be His children. But
some of them have even forfeited that position, while others are
somewhat soiled. In either case, in order that He may be able to give
His favors to them, they need to be open. But many of them do little
or nothing towards rebalancing the scales for their own sins. So that
they may be put in the condition to receive, we can by taking on
difficult things, make up for them. This is love for them - it is
also love of the Father, for it gives Him the opening to give to
them, while at the same time it gives them the openness they need to
receive. (So we see in passing: love of God and love of neighbor are
found in one and the same action). [b]Hence St. Paul said, in Colossians
1. 24: "I fill up the things that are lacking to the sufferings of
Christ in my flesh, for His body, which is the Church." Of course,
nothing is lacking to the sufferings of Christ considered as an
individual. But the whole Christ, Head and members, can be deficient.
Paul wants to do what we just said, to make up for the a lack of
opening in other members of Christ.[/b]

We gather, there is triple reason for suffering. It cleans up the
tarnished image of the Father and of Christ in us; it helps us grow
to spiritual maturity; it helps give the Father the pleasure of being
able to give to other, deficient children.

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4588686    4,153
4588686
[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1348962318' post='2488222']
[b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/user/346-thedude/"]thedude[/url] asked in CatholicQ&A (see topic Why Did Christ Die?) the following:[/b]

Quick question that is bothering me and I can't seem to find any resources. Why did Christ have to die? Couldn't God have forgiven sins without this?

And this what he got from Catholic Scholars:

----------------------
To Catholic Scholars,

You are puzzled for 2000 years and then you call Jesus’ death an ‘incomplete suffering’? You do not know how God forgive sin, and that is only through his death, and then you claim into yourself ‘sharer in the anointing of the Spirit with which he (Jesus) himself is anointed’ and ‘ministers in the society of the faithful able by the sacred power of orders to offer sacrifice and to forgive sins.? (see your Presbyterorum Ordinis).

You called yourself ‘co-saviour of Jesus, sharer in his suffering, sharer in his Spirit, sharer in his ministry, and many, many, many other ‘power sharing complement’ but you do not know why the death of Jesus is necessary to forgive sin?

I really fear for you because the Wrath of God is already prepared for you. When you closed your eyes, it will be the end and the beginning and it will be forever. You will get what you deserved because God's name is blasphemed among the unbelievers because of you.
[/quote]


To show the world my love. :)

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BG45    3,139
BG45
[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348970597' post='2488270']


To show the world my love. :)
[/quote]

I'm not sure that this is even necessarily theologically incorrect...without Christ's saving sacrifice for us all, Hassy wouldn't be able to show the world his love, for we would all be lost in our darkness and grievous faults.

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4588686    4,153
4588686
[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1348971538' post='2488274']

I'm not sure that this is even necessarily theologically incorrect...without Christ's saving sacrifice for us all, Hassy wouldn't be able to show the world his love, for we would all be lost in our darkness and grievous faults.
[/quote]


beaver dam you and your thoughtfulness.

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Nihil Obstat    9,205
Nihil Obstat
I literally will not read any Reyb post longer than about two sentences. It is to the point now where I forget that there are actually words in those posts, so I am always surprised when people make an effort to respond. When I say Reyb's posts being quoted I am always thinking "Wait, that is not in this thread, is it?"

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Groo the Wanderer    1,743
Groo the Wanderer
i find it amazing that he thinks he can properly interpret sacred scripture for himself, but cannot properly interpret a very clear answer given to his questions.

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KnightofChrist    2,280
KnightofChrist
[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1348974216' post='2488306']
i find it amazing that he thinks he can properly interpret sacred scripture for himself, but cannot properly interpret a very clear answer given to his questions.
[/quote]

Visual repsentation of a debate with reyb... Comes at you with a question, you answer question, he dodges, historical jesus. repeat infinite loop...

[img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb134gtzda1robljpo1_400.gif[/img]

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reyb    30
reyb
[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1348966582' post='2488246']
To my mind, Jesus was subject to cause and effect just as we are. In this subjection, Jesus is fully human and His Sufferings and Death underscore that He was indeed fully human in every way, just as we are. There is a cause that brings about a certain result. The authorities in the time of Jesus chose an evil and this evil was to crucify Jesus. In subjection and obedience to the Permissive Will of God (or the evil that God has permitted) and cause and effect in His own human life, Jesus is crucified. Jesus accepts a situation that as fully human, He cannot change. We know that in the Garden of Gethsamane, Jesus is aware of His impending sufferings and asks His Father "if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me, but not My Will, but Thine be done". The greatest evil to exist (crucifixion of Jesus) brings about a greater good, the forgiveness of sin and the salvation of mankind.

As for Jesus, so for us. Suffering is a mystery and God is Mystery and so the reason that God does not spare Jesus His Sufferings and Death is in the Mystery of God. The sufferings of Jesus can tell us many things, including that God can intervene in human life (or Jesus would not have asked Him to do so in His own life and coming death). His sufferings tell us that Jesus was indeed fully human in every way like us, except sin. His sufferings tell us of His Trust in God - Jesus undergoes His sufferings meekly and humbly because He trusts that a greater good will come out of them and that His Father has His Reasons and this is a lesson for us in our own life. Endless is the Treasury of The Sufferings and Death of Jesus.

Permissive Will of God, Catholic Catechism :
[b]324 [/b]The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that [u][b]God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that [color=#0000ff]we shall fully know only in eternal life[/color][/b][/u][color=#0000ff].[/color]
[/quote]


You are entering to another topic because it seems you are saying ‘There is goodness that comes from evil’. No good tree will bear bad fruit neither bad tree will bear good fruit. And where did you get that the death of Jesus is an evil thing? No evil thing can demonstrate God’ justice and righteousness, and that is what Apostle Paul is saying in Rom 3:21-26

[indent=1]'But now righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.'[/indent]

At the end of the day, you still do not know why Jesus had to die for you and you call that honourable act of God an evil thing.

Nevertheless, seek him and you will find him. (Seek the real One. Your historical Jesus is a lie. He never existed in our world of realities. All of witnessess are referring to another Jesus different from the Jesus taught by your early church fathers and traditions).

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