Marriage Rules - Catholic Contradiction? How To Tell What Is What?

[dairygirl4u2c]

The Baltimore Catechism at section 299 and 300 says that a Catholic cannot marry a noncatholic christian.

http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson22.html

 

The current catechism at section 1635 says that they may marry, or merely says express permission must exist.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

 

you can read around the web and it says they can marry, now, with permission.

 

is this a contradiction of catholic doctrine? i don't know what popes have said on the matter, but it seems to at least be a contradiction of catechisms. (to those who argue that catechisms are infallible and not mere possible fallible expressions of infallible and falllible teachings, this proves them wrong)

per infalliblity and the ordinary magisterium, i can't say the pope in unison with all the bishops have taught both versions, but i'd guess they almost surely have.

 

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if this is considered a legitimate change in rules, where does one draw the line? anything not expliciitly taught by a pope is then open to change, right? perhaps a catholic must follow the rule, but it doesn't mean it's an infallible steadfast rule.

 

this goes to the rules in general, but one marriage example.

the baltimore catechism says that marrying a noncatholic at all is a mortal sin.... who's to say you have to get permission? the catholic does have to follow the teaching, but it seems like if he wanted to go marry a noncatholic without permission, that it's not like his action won't be shown to be valid, if some day they say permission isn't required.

this gets to the heart of contradiction, which catholic doctrine can't do and be valid altogether... but it's just one of many problems i have with the catholic ideas of marraige. eg, that you can't remarry if your spouse cheats on you. (the bible seems to indicate otherwise), that petrine and pauline privileges aren't just manmade "get out of jail free" rules to sometimes get around catholic hardline rules, the bible. etc etc

Edited December 30, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

(technically the baltimore catechism says you can marry a non, if it's such that you have permission and that it's the case that you would become a noncatholic if you didn't get the permission. a technicalist could argue that permission is allowed in both catechisms, and hte current practice of allowing it willy nilly is merely a practice that is against the rules with all being consistent... almost seems like a cop out though, this argument)

 

seems like this is just another example (of the others that i have listed in the past) of the catholic church teaching contradictions, and catholics just ignoring it and wishing it didn't exist or something.

Edited December 30, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i guess one could approach this from the "ordinary magisterium". perhaps at one point the pope and all bishops said you cannot marry a noncatholic, but right now, some bishops still hold to the old teaching. surely, many bishops if not the pope too, seem to basically say you can marry a non catholic, now. but, if it's not in unison, then this could be said to be a teaching that's not contradictory as it hasnt' reached the offiicial level yet. it'd have to be a teaching in unison contradicting a teaching in unison to be a contradiction of infallibility of the ordinary magisterium.

Edited December 30, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[Basilisa Marie]

The Baltimore Catechism is not binding, and often includes really poorly worded explanations for many things.  It was primarily used as a teaching tool for students, to get them to learn the basics of the faith through memorization.

 

We should use the most current editions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church so as to better understand how the Church interprets her doctrine today. :)

 

Edit: In this case, our understanding of doctrine evolved.  The Church recognizes that marrying a non-Catholic makes life more difficult for both people.  The Church stills believes this, but has a different way of addressing inter-faith marriages. The important parts don't change. 

Edited December 31, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[To Jesus Through Mary]

The Baltimore Catechism at section 299 and 300 says that a Catholic cannot marry a noncatholic christian.

http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson22.html

 

The current catechism at section 1635 says that they may marry, or merely says express permission must exist.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

 

you can read around the web and it says they can marry, now, with permission.

 

is this a contradiction of catholic doctrine?

 

No- This is a practice of discipline, not doctrine. Doctrines are truths of the faith, that is unchangeable. Our understanding deepens but they do not change. How we live out our faith can and does change. Take for example not eating meat on Fridays. Our bishops in the US decided we could eat meat on Friday outside of Lent in exchange for another penance. Now the bishops are talking about changing it back. It is a pastoral issue. It is also a pastoral issue in the situation you have mentioned here with marriage. Not to mention Catechisms are not binding documents. They are reliable, don't get me wrong. But they are not infallible in and of themselves, even though they contain some infallible information. 

[MIKolbe]

The Baltimore Catechism at section 299 and 300 says that a Catholic cannot marry a noncatholic christian.
http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson22.html

you can read around the web and it says they can marry, now, with permission.

1) thanks for citing 299 and 300.
2) feel free to peruse 301.

A dispensation was needed then and is still needed today.

No change.

Next straw man, please.

[Anastasia13]

1) thanks for citing 299 and 300.
2) feel free to peruse 301.

A dispensation was needed then and is still needed today.

No change.

Next straw man, please.

 

301. Does the Church ever permit mixed marriages or marriages between close relatives?

For grave reasons the Church sometimes permits mixed marriages or marriages between close relatives; such a permission is called a dispensation.

 

Ew! Incest is gross. I like the other answers better.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Light and Truth

[CatherineM]

There is the ideal, and there is accepted reality. Marriage is hard. Mixed marriages are harder, but they can work. The Church would love it if everyone married other Catholics, but since marriage is between humans, sometimes perfect and ideal doesn't happen. So She puts in place rules to make mixed marriages possible so long as both parties understand everyone's responsibilities.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's not a strawman argument... as i've conceded, the baltimore says you can get a dispensation for grave reasons. the new catechisms merely says you need to get a dispensation. the baltimore that i have in possession says it'd have to be, a catholic is going to leave the church if he cannot marry this person. but even with the cited text, one says grave, one implies it could be willy nilly reasons. and in practice, it is will nilly reasons. as i said, one could say the practice doesn't match the reality, but.

one could also use the ordinary magisteriums not technically contradicting each other argument.

 

one could use the discipline v faith and morals arguments. i'd question where one draws the line at discipline an faith or morals. i do concede i could see it here. but then. i could see it many places. is the requirement that one goes to church every sunday a mere discipline up for grabs? is the idea that you need permission at all to marry a noncatholic etc up for change? even if we settled on it being a mere discipline, throwing around all these mortal sins seems a bit heavy handed given the person going contrary could have been right all along. (it'd be more about defying church authority on wrong diciplines, which one could argue warrants mortal sin and eternal damnation... but then again, isn't there someothing to be said about being right on the substance all along? that would lead one to think maybe you shouldn't deserve hellfire for it?)

[Papist]

Do you not obey your mother b/c yours actions might be ok someday? No. Disobeying your mother is a bad habit to practice.

[carmenchristi]

What the CJC says
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P41.HTM#4

Edited January 1, 2013 by carmenchristi

[Theoketos]

Even in the time of Bal. Cat. one could receive special permission to marry a non-Catholic. 

301. Does the Church ever permit mixed marriages or marriages between close relatives?

For grave reasons the Church sometimes permits mixed marriages or marriages between close relatives; such a permission is called a dispensation.

Also, ew. 

[MIKolbe]

That's a good point.

[jmjtina]

double the ew Theotokos.

[LouisvilleFan]

The Baltimore Catechism at section 299 and 300 says that a Catholic cannot marry a noncatholic christian.

http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson22.html

 

301. Does the Church ever permit mixed marriages or marriages between close relatives?

For grave reasons the Church sometimes permits mixed marriages or marriages between close relatives; such a permission is called a dispensation.