graciandelamadrededios Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 How come there are Austrian Carmels that has crosses on top of the Scapulars. Some Italian Carmels has crosses outside their scapulars tool Can you asked Mayerling Carmel if they know how this custom developed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNJM Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I saw that thesis!!! Oh, how I would love to read that!!! Did you read it Senesis? Thank you again! Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bride of the Lamb Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 How come there are Austrian Carmels that has crosses on top of the Scapulars. Some Italian Carmels has crosses outside their scapulars tool Can you asked Mayerling Carmel if they know how this custom developed? fyi, the do not have crosses on top of the scapulars at the carmel in Mayerling (but iiRC in Bärnbach). I'm currently in the process to make a visit o the carmel of Mayerling by the beginning of September :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 fyi, the do not have crosses on top of the scapulars at the carmel in Mayerling (but iiRC in Bärnbach). I'm currently in the process to make a visit o the carmel of Mayerling by the beginning of September :) I did not say that Mayerling Carmelite Nuns wore crosses on top of their scapulars. I said there are Carmels in Austria that wore wooden crosses on top of their scapulars. FYI, this custom are observed in some Carmels in Italy as well as Czech Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 fyi, the do not have crosses on top of the scapulars at the carmel in Mayerling (but iiRC in Bärnbach). I'm currently in the process to make a visit o the carmel of Mayerling by the beginning of September :) I did not say that Mayerling Carmelite Nuns wore crosses on top of their scapulars. I said there is/ are Carmel/s in Austria that wore wooden crosses on top of their scapulars. FYI, this custom are observed in some Carmels in Italy as well as Czech Republic. I was told by one of the OCD Fathers in the Generalate that some regions in France and Spain do this but he can't place specific Carmel started this custom or why this custom was practiced. Also, he mentioned that some Carmels may have stopped wearing the crosses outside scapular since its not a custom introduced by St. Teresa of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemma Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Well, as they haven't the crosses outside in Mayerling, they might not know about it. But perhaps I can manage to call the nuns at Bärnbach. It might have to do with the origin of the convent. The Bärnbach convent came from Mariazell - which came from the renewed convent in Vienna (according to the above named thesis). Joseph II had dissolved a number of monasteries, among them the convent of Wien-Salzgries in 1782. The nuns fled to some other convents until those got dissolved too. Nuns in Prague managed to survive - all Austrian afterwards reestablished convents trace back to this convent. I can't tell you why some have the crosses outside and some haven't. I don't know photos from Mariazell nuns, but the nuns in Wien haven't. @SNJM: I've read the last part about the foundation of the carmel in Mayerling and about the history of the nuns. The whole thesis covers also the history before that. @Bride of the Lamb: That's a beautiful plan. Please don't feel deterred by the building work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 Well, as they haven't the crosses outside in Mayerling, they might not know about it. But perhaps I can manage to call the nuns at Bärnbach. It might have to do with the origin of the convent. The Bärnbach convent came from Mariazell - which came from the renewed convent in Vienna (according to the above named thesis). Joseph II had dissolved a number of monasteries, among them the convent of Wien-Salzgries in 1782. The nuns fled to some other convents until those got dissolved too. Nuns in Prague managed to survive - all Austrian afterwards reestablished convents trace back to this convent. I can't tell you why some have the crosses outside and some haven't. I don't know photos from Mariazell nuns, but the nuns in Wien haven't. @SNJM: I've read the last part about the foundation of the carmel in Mayerling and about the history of the nuns. The whole thesis covers also the history before that. @Bride of the Lamb: That's a beautiful plan. Please don't feel deterred by the building work. According to the Discalced Carmelite Nuns of Czech Republic Carmel, they traced their origin from Genoa Carmel. I sent inquiry to the Discalced Carmelite Provincial in Italy and they asked the Nuns of Genoa Carmel but they do not know the origin or explanation of the custom of wearing wooden crosses outside the scapulars. I am not sure about this, but when O. Carm. Nuns from Spain were sent to found a monastery in the Philippines, they were given missionary crosses and they pinned them on top of their scapulars. It is a possibility that the wooden crosses pinned on top of the scapulars of the OCD Nuns was a remnant of custom where missionary crosses were given to them when the Nuns from Malagon founded a convent of the reform in Italy. As suggested by one of the VS members, it may have been to set them apart from the Spanish Nuns during the separation of the Italian OCD Congregation from the Spanish Congregation. However, those were just assumption and it has never been confirmed. Can you please ask the Carmels in Austria who still wears the wooden crosses on top of their scapulars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) DISCALCED CARMELITE NUNS IN SOUTH AMERICA - SPANISH STYLE TOQUE Click the photo for the larger version Edited August 10, 2014 by graciandelamadrededios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Madre LucÃa del Niño Jesús y de la Santa Faz With Nuns wearing the Great / Grate Veils With Nuns wearing the Great / Grate Veils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Madre LucÃa del Niño Jesús y de la Santa Faz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 this is the 1990 Carmel in Callao, Peru :like: DISCALCED CARMELITE NUNS IN SOUTH AMERICA - SPANISH STYLE TOQUE Click the photo for the larger version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 she was responsible for a lot of foundations! :saint: http://madrelucia.com/ Madre LucÃa del Niño Jesús y de la Santa Faz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Madre LucÃa del Niño Jesús y de la Santa Faz she entered in Chile, and this was the first picture that made me realize that actually the way they had the Habits with the super big toques in the Teresa de Los Andes movie was actually 100% accurate to how they used to be in Chile at that time. I always thought the movie had that wrong. it reminded me also of this picture of St. Teresa of Los Andes with a big toque like that as well, and I have seen a picture of another Novice in the Los Andes Carmel in a picture book I have from her life with a huge toque like that too also the scapulars don't have much horizontal space between the two parts in the movie, and that is how her Habit is as well. I cannot find a close up picture of her Habit online, but I have it in that book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) she entered in Chile, and this was the first picture that made me realize that actually the way they had the Habits with the super big toques in the Teresa de Los Andes movie was actually 100% accurate to how they used to be in Chile at that time. I always thought the movie had that wrong. it reminded me also of this picture of St. Teresa of Los Andes with a big toque like that as well, and I have seen a picture of another Novice in the Los Andes Carmel in a picture book I have from her life with a huge toque like that too also the scapulars don't have much horizontal space between the two parts in the movie, and that is how her Habit is as well. I cannot find a close up picture of her Habit online, but I have it in that book. I also noticed the very big white toque but their are slight variations of the habit of the Discalced Carmelites that I have seen in England and in other parts of the world. The German Carmels and its daughter houses arranged their veils differently; that famous and unexplained wooden Crosses on top of the scapulars of some Italian Carmels and its daughter houses; no shirring or gathering of the day veils in some Carmels. Edited August 10, 2014 by graciandelamadrededios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I also noticed the very big white toque but their are slight variations of the habit of the Discalced Carmelites that I have seen in England and in other parts of the world. The German Carmels and its daughter houses arranged their veils differently; that famous and unexplained wooden Crosses on top of the scapulars of some Italian Carmels and its daughter houses; no shirring or gathering of the day veils in some Carmels. yep :like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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