Dating And Discernment: Pros And Cons

[AnneLine]

Maybe having brothers is the key for you.  I'm an only child myself, and I often wished I had a brother who could have explained some of the ways guys get things... because 'they is not us'.

 

 "... it only makes sense to have some experience of interacting with people of the opposite sex before entering religious life or seminary."  

 

I don't think it necessarily has to be dating qua dating... but I think that experience interacting is the key.   If someone isn't actively pursuing a vocation, I personally don't think there is a problem with dating and being open to religious life.  But that is a very different thing from being in the process of applying (or being inside!) and being open to romantic relationships!

 

I brought it up because I really have come across people who simply aren't comfortable with people, and I have come across those who specifically aren't comfortable being with people of the opposite sex.  Ran into them when I was a postulant, and I run into them as a lay person.   One of our seculars isn't comfortable being alone with people of the opposite sex.  And I think that is kind of sad... because sometimes that is who God wants you to bring into relationship with Him.

 

And... I do think there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between dating and 'discerning marriage'.   Just like there is a big difference between exploring communities and their charisms and being open to God calling you in that direction and actively applying for admittance!   Am I alone in this?

 

If someone KNOWs (and some people do!) that they are certain God is calling them to religious or priestly life, and it is confirmed by director and/or religious superiors, then OF COURSE don't do the dating thing. 

 

But if you aren't at that point and aren't sure .... I really don't see a problem with going out for a meal or a movie or a hike.   Really, I think it could help one to look at ones options more clearly.

What do the rest of you think?
 

[Spem in alium]

Maybe having brothers is the key for you.  I'm an only child myself, and I often wished I had a brother who could have explained some of the ways guys get things... because 'they is not us'.

 

 "... it only makes sense to have some experience of interacting with people of the opposite sex before entering religious life or seminary."  

 

I don't think it necessarily has to be dating qua dating... but I think that experience interacting is the key.   If someone isn't actively pursuing a vocation, I personally don't think there is a problem with dating and being open to religious life.  But that is a very different thing from being in the process of applying (or being inside!) and being open to romantic relationships!

 

I brought it up because I really have come across people who simply aren't comfortable with people, and I have come across those who specifically aren't comfortable being with people of the opposite sex.  Ran into them when I was a postulant, and I run into them as a lay person.   One of our seculars isn't comfortable being alone with people of the opposite sex.  And I think that is kind of sad... because sometimes that is who God wants you to bring into relationship with Him.

 

And... I do think there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between dating and 'discerning marriage'.   Just like there is a big difference between exploring communities and their charisms and being open to God calling you in that direction and actively applying for admittance!   Am I alone in this?

 

If someone KNOWs (and some people do!) that they are certain God is calling them to religious or priestly life, and it is confirmed by director and/or religious superiors, then OF COURSE don't do the dating thing. 

 

But if you aren't at that point and aren't sure .... I really don't see a problem with going out for a meal or a movie or a hike.   Really, I think it could help one to look at ones options more clearly.

What do the rest of you think?
 

 

Having a brother has helped me, though he is younger than me and incredibly immature :P

 

Personally, I would see dating as a way of discerning marriage. If I ever had the opportunity to date someone, I could only consider it being with someone I was already close friends with and someone I could consider having a serious, deepening relationship with. But maybe that's just my own (potentially wacky) thought :) Dating for the sake of dating seems entirely unattractive to me.

 

However, I do think it is important to be open, and if a person isn't altogether sure of where they are called then there is no harm in gaining experience. I don't feel entirely sure yet of where my true vocation lies, but I don't date and haven't dated because I've never really found anyone I wanted to date (and on the one occasion I did, my feelings weren't reciprocated) and because I think it would confuse me more than anything else. I still hang out with guys one-on-one though, which I see more as beneficial than a problem. Most of my male friends know I'm discerning anyway. so it actually can help to make things more casual between us.

 

Just my two cents :)

[AnneLine]

That's pretty much what I meant, Spem.  That one needs to have good friendships, and be able to be comfortable around guys.  If one really isn't drawn toward dating, don't do it just to 'check off a box' - but if one really isn't actively discerning a vocation, and you are interested in a guy (or a guy interested in getting to know a girl better) I wouldn't hesitate to do a few meals or a movie or a hike together.

 

 

[Spem in alium]

That's pretty much what I meant, Spem.  That one needs to have good friendships, and be able to be comfortable around guys.  If one really isn't drawn toward dating, don't do it just to 'check off a box' - but if one really isn't actively discerning a vocation, and you are interested in a guy (or a guy interested in getting to know a girl better) I wouldn't hesitate to do a few meals or a movie or a hike together.

 

Right! Perhaps I wasn't quite understanding :) It's definitely important to be comfortable around people of the opposite sex because no matter what your vocation you can't avoid them!  :hehe2: Plus I've noticed that being comfortable around people allows them to valued for a reason extending beyond the sexual - which is very beneficial and beautiful.

[FFI Griswold]

Ave Maria!

 

The counsel to not date applies to all stages of discernment, whether you are just thinking about a vocation or if you are ready to begin the process of entry.

 

One could reason that the earlier stages are even more critical because the seed of the vocation has barely begun to sprout and is more prone to being choked, buried, or simply snatched away. It is critical to guard this most rare, holy, and privileged inspiration when God has given it. As the saints teach us, the devil becomes infuriated at such a grace and will multiply his efforts to stop it, whether or not one is ultimately called to marriage.

 

Instead of dating, use the available time and effort to cultivate your vocation with silence and solitude, meditation, visits to the Blessed Sacrament, the Holy Rosary, visits to seminaries/monasteries, speaking with priests and religious, reading the lives of the saints, volunteering, church ministries, youth/young adult groups, retreats, etc. Who knows, you may even meet your future spouse, but you must still persevere and guard your vocation, and God will reward both of you for your faith and giving Him all of your attention.

 

Many of these spiritual activities can providentially present themselves at the spur of a moment, and how many of them will be turned down because you are dating and have a conflicting appointment, phone call, or some other preparation with this person? Not only is your time consumed, but your heart and mind can be consumed with dating intricacies and rollercoasters of emotion. The heart is truly divided.

 

"For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of God. For I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." -2 Cor 11:2

 

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

fra John Paul

[Sister Marie]

Ave Maria!

The counsel to not date applies to all stages of discernment, whether you are just thinking about a vocation or if you are ready to begin the process of entry.

One could reason that the earlier stages are even more critical because the seed of the vocation has barely begun to sprout and is more prone to being choked, buried, or simply snatched away. It is critical to guard this most rare, holy, and privileged inspiration when God has given it. As the saints teach us, the devil becomes infuriated at such a grace and will multiply his efforts to stop it, whether or not one is ultimately called to marriage.

Instead of dating, use the available time and effort to cultivate your vocation with silence and solitude, meditation, visits to the Blessed Sacrament, the Holy Rosary, visits to seminaries/monasteries, speaking with priests and religious, reading the lives of the saints, volunteering, church ministries, youth/young adult groups, retreats, etc. Who knows, you may even meet your future spouse, but you must still persevere and guard your vocation, and God will reward both of you for your faith and giving Him all of your attention.

Many of these spiritual activities can providentially present themselves at the spur of a moment, and how many of them will be turned down because you are dating and have a conflicting appointment, phone call, or some other preparation with this person? Not only is your time consumed, but your heart and mind can be consumed with dating intricacies and rollercoasters of emotion. The heart is truly divided.

"For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of God. For I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." -2 Cor 11:2

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Ave Maria!

fra John Paul

Friar John Paul, thank you for bringing up this topic for discussion. It is clear that you believe that one should discern before dating, however, you have shared very little of your own experiences with us and, personally, I find that more informative/transformative than anything else. I believe that God writes His story on each of our lives in very sacred and unique ways, which is my reason for being very cautious of putting limits on when and how his grace can most effect us.

I thought I might be called to religious life and did date. One of the men I dated before I entered religious life truly showed me Jesus in his very being and in the way he was in relationship with me. That relationship, which ended mutually with both of us truly loving the other enough to know that Gods will was leading us elsewhere, provided a foundational experience for me of Gods loving goodness in my life. I would not be as aware of Gods love for me, my dignity as a woman religious, or of the value of living a faithful life had I not dated this man.

Not everyone has to have my experience and not everyone has to have the experience you think is best by refraining from dating. The man I dated who made such an impression on me prayed with me, served with me, and encouraged me continually to grow closer to Christ as he did. I think I spent more time in prayer and service being with him than I would have on my own and he was a powerful part of the story of my vocation. My heart was not divided, it was being opened and cultivated for God. I like to think that this was a mutual experience.

I still admire and care for him as a brother and thank God for using this good man to give me the gift of my vocation. My chastity is firmly rooted in the fact that I freely chose to forsake one good for another in response to Gods call. Instead of a fear of losing my vocation or of being unfaithful, I feel confident in my ability to love fully and freely, to accept love, and to serve with an undivided heart. Gods providential care has always been with me as it will be for all who desire to know, love, and serve him. Living in the freedom of gods loving providence, and his care for us as unique individuals enables us to communicate with and respond to his voice with freedom and maturity. That is what is really important.

[abrideofChrist]

That's pretty much what I meant, Spem.  That one needs to have good friendships, and be able to be comfortable around guys.  If one really isn't drawn toward dating, don't do it just to 'check off a box' - but if one really isn't actively discerning a vocation, and you are interested in a guy (or a guy interested in getting to know a girl better) I wouldn't hesitate to do a few meals or a movie or a hike together.

 

To me, also, it is important that one has good friends and able to be friends with members of the opposite sex.  I have often seen the case where a person "discerns" religious life because she hasn't been able to attract a date and rationalizes it by saying that all they were interested in was religious life anyway.  Or, as I alluded to above, people can be quite clueless as to what a courtship pattern really looks like.  Having brothers or sisters is nice, but it really doesn't give the same experience as going out with someone alone, gradually going from casual dating to serious courtship if it works out.

 

Not everyone has to have my experience and not everyone has to have the experience you think is best by refraining from dating. The man I dated who made such an impression on me prayed with me, served with me, and encouraged me continually to grow closer to Christ as he did. I think I spent more time in prayer and service being with him than I would have on my own and he was a powerful part of the story of my vocation. My heart was not divided, it was being opened and cultivated for God. I like to think that this was a mutual experience.

I still admire and care for him as a brother and thank God for using this good man to give me the gift of my vocation. My chastity is firmly rooted in the fact that I freely chose to forsake one good for another in response to Gods call. Instead of a fear of losing my vocation or of being unfaithful, I feel confident in my ability to love fully and freely, to accept love, and to serve with an undivided heart. Gods providential care has always been with me as it will be for all who desire to know, love, and serve him. Living in the freedom of gods loving providence, and his care for us as unique individuals enables us to communicate with and respond to his voice with freedom and maturity. That is what is really important.

 Very beautiful.  As one close friend is never tired of telling me, "marriage is for people to get holier with less effort together than apart."  Fear should never be the motivation for closing oneself to a possible vocation of marriage.  Authentic discernment requires self knowledge and knowledge of how humans click.  If a person is too afraid to even go out for a coffee or a movie or something with someone because they might "lose their vocation", they may very well lose their vocation.  A good friend of mine was a novice master for a strict community.  He told me lots of men left after the class on marriage because they had never been properly catechized on that vocation.  Sad to say, a lot of religious communities don't experience the same because they assume people have been properly catechized and were mature enough to know what they were about when they entered.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Ave Maria!

 

The counsel to not date applies to all stages of discernment, whether you are just thinking about a vocation or if you are ready to begin the process of entry.

 

One could reason that the earlier stages are even more critical because the seed of the vocation has barely begun to sprout and is more prone to being choked, buried, or simply snatched away. It is critical to guard this most rare, holy, and privileged inspiration when God has given it. As the saints teach us, the devil becomes infuriated at such a grace and will multiply his efforts to stop it, whether or not one is ultimately called to marriage.

 

Instead of dating, use the available time and effort to cultivate your vocation with silence and solitude, meditation, visits to the Blessed Sacrament, the Holy Rosary, visits to seminaries/monasteries, speaking with priests and religious, reading the lives of the saints, volunteering, church ministries, youth/young adult groups, retreats, etc. Who knows, you may even meet your future spouse, but you must still persevere and guard your vocation, and God will reward both of you for your faith and giving Him all of your attention.

 

Many of these spiritual activities can providentially present themselves at the spur of a moment, and how many of them will be turned down because you are dating and have a conflicting appointment, phone call, or some other preparation with this person? Not only is your time consumed, but your heart and mind can be consumed with dating intricacies and rollercoasters of emotion. The heart is truly divided.

 

"For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of God. For I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." -2 Cor 11:2

 

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

fra John Paul

Hi brother!

 

Thank you for your posts, that have given me something to think about. I have been giving this subject a lot of thought these days- a lot. About 3 years ago, when I was discerning with a missionary order (and later entered and since left) I would have full heartedly agreed with you. Mainly because that was the orders take on it and I just fully believed anything they said. Now the last few months I have had my first real time away from the order, not working for them in any capacity now, I am beginning to see it isn't so black and white and tend towards AL, Sisters, and the others views.

 

I now realize I will not be returning to that order, as we had planned when I left, and I am beginning to see that perhaps I haven't been totally open to whatever God's will is. Now I still feel a draw towards religious life, but I am also seeing the beauty and draw of marriage. If one still makes time for prayers, is still immersed in the Sacraments, puts up strict physical touch boundaries to prevent the passions from blurring ones vision, etc... don't you think God would prevent that person from taking the wrong path. But if the right man present himself and you ignore that, wouldn't you be isolating yourself from possibly following God's will?  After all, isn't following God's will the most important thing, whether it be marriage or consecrated life? His Holy Will is what is going to bring Him the most glory. It doesn't seem like dating should be a bad thing if you are still actively and honestly seeking out His Will... 

[abrideofChrist]

 If one still makes time for prayers, is still immersed in the Sacraments, puts up strict physical touch boundaries to prevent the passions from blurring ones vision, etc... don't you think God would prevent that person from taking the wrong path. But if the right man present himself and you ignore that, wouldn't you be isolating yourself from possibly following God's will?  After all, isn't following God's will the most important thing, whether it be marriage or consecrated life? His Holy Will is what is going to bring Him the most glory. It doesn't seem like dating should be a bad thing if you are still actively and honestly seeking out His Will... 

 

Said very well and beautifully. 
 

[Little Flower]

You know this is something I've been debating a lot lately. I will be going into college this year, and during high school my parents always had a rule that I couldn't date. So I've never dated. I'm just about certain that I'm called to religious life, but I've had some people (a nun and a wise friend of mine) who told me they thought it would be a good idea if I dated. So I really don't know. I kind of want to date, cause you know, I like guys :hehe2: , and also just kind of to rule that out and just to have that kind of experience so I don't look back and wonder "what if" after I enter, but at the same time, if I am seriously discerning, I don't know if this is really a good idea. I guess I'm kind of torn.

[OnlySunshine]

You know this is something I've been debating a lot lately. I will be going into college this year, and during high school my parents always had a rule that I couldn't date. So I've never dated. I'm just about certain that I'm called to religious life, but I've had some people (a nun and a wise friend of mine) who told me they thought it would be a good idea if I dated. So I really don't know. I kind of want to date, cause you know, I like guys :hehe2: , and also just kind of to rule that out and just to have that kind of experience so I don't look back and wonder "what if" after I enter, but at the same time, if I am seriously discerning, I don't know if this is really a good idea. I guess I'm kind of torn.

 

That's a hard decision to make.  On the one hand, if you feel uncertain about your calling to religious life, it might be good to "test the waters" and date.  However, since you are seriously discerning religious life, I don't think it would be fair to the person you would date because dating, in and of itself, should lead to marriage.  It may not be to the first person you date (usually isn't), but dating is about finding a spouse.  This would be a good topic to discuss with your spiritual director.  :)

[Antigonos]

As the mother of two adult, and married, daughters, I can tell you that I think it is important to have some social experiences with the other sex, if only to gain a wider experience of life.  When my girls were in high school, they dated in groups -- 2 or 3 girls, and the same number of boys.  They went to movies, or bowling, or to clubs which specialized in their age group [no alcohol, for example, for the under-18s] which had live entertainment [a DJ], and dancing.  One-on-one dating until they were in the army [18-21] was unusual.  IMO, you shouldn't deny yourself casual dating of this type, even if you think now that you are called to religious life.

[Chiquitunga]

And... I do think there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between dating and 'discerning marriage'.   Just like there is a big difference between exploring communities and their charisms and being open to God calling you in that direction and actively applying for admittance!   Am I alone in this?

 

I feel like it's our culture that would want us to believe that though... that the two things are totally different, dating and considering marriage. Sure in the very beginning it wouldn't be so serious, but ultimately that would be the reason to date, to discern marriage. But of course, our society would think the exact opposite of that. 

 

I've gone out to places alone (well places with other people there of course, like a concert) with guy friends who weren't my brothers, but I would not consider any of those times a date, because it was only friendship. Personally I feel like if I were to get married, I would prefer to just be super great friends with my future husband and go to a more serious courtship from that. Seriously, dating is a newer phenomenon in our  culture. And I really cannot stand that it seems to be something even very young people (like junior high) are excepted to do these days. Sad.

 

This reminds me of a talk I heard once from Leah Darrow. When she transferred to a different high school she felt pressured into dating, that she had to be dating someone.. anyone by her peers, and so she did, and she describes this as the first step to going down the wrong path that she did. 

 

I've had guys that wanted to date me, but I wasn't attracted to them in that way, beyond friends, and I am really glad I made that decision, even though at the time I had no idea that later I would be discerning religious life. 

 

I would say I agree with Sister Marie in that each one of our journeys is unique and completely personal, and God can use all of our experiences to teach us something beautiful. But for me, the experience of not seriously dating was how He worked in my life, and after He first called me I was so overwhelmingly grateful for that. I had really had a particular idea of a guy in mind whom I would love to meet while I was first starting college... and that ended up being Jesus, which I did not expect at all! :heart:

 

I also very much agree with Fra John Paul's posts, and am glad he is not afraid to post that view, despite his opinions not being the most popular here. It is true that if one were dating someone while at the same time trying to discern if one is called to religious life... the heart would be divided and not totally free for the Lord. 

 

Finally, I just remembered this interesting story on this blog I read a while back, related to all of this, http://seraphicsinglescummings.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-you-be-my-vdp.html

 

Prayers for everyone as we discern what He wants of us  :pray:

[Little Flower]

That's a hard decision to make.  On the one hand, if you feel uncertain about your calling to religious life, it might be good to "test the waters" and date.  However, since you are seriously discerning religious life, I don't think it would be fair to the person you would date because dating, in and of itself, should lead to marriage.  It may not be to the first person you date (usually isn't), but dating is about finding a spouse.  This would be a good topic to discuss with your spiritual director.  :)

No I wouldn't really say I'm uncertain. At all really. But I want a boyfriend. If I was just casually dating, as in, you know, going places or whatever with another guy, but not getting all romantic and stuff or serious or anything, would it really be a problem? I don't know... sometimes I just get in this mood or whatever of GOD WHY CANT I GET MARRIED. I want a husband and kids. I want a man to love me. And I want a boyfriend right now. 

[FFI Griswold]

Ave Maria!

From a sermon on Audio Sancto:

Kissing a Vocation Goodbye: 6th and 9th Commandments

"If you suspect you might have a vocation, in order to preserve it, you must not date."
   
"Don't date.. You need to guard your heart.. You can easily kiss a vocation goodbye."

"Eternity hangs upon your vocation, so preserve your vocation."

"If you end up in a state of life to which God has not called you, it will be much harder for you to lead a good life.. If you go off the path God has called you to, you do so to your own peril."

 

Although the talk is aimed at those already dating, in the first few minutes Father makes these key points for those who are discerning.

 

Mary Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Mother most pure, pray for us. Mother most chaste, pray for us. Mother of Good Counsel, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

fra John Paul